"Our lands"

[MJ]

Conventional Armenian ideology claims that Turks have taken away our lands, and we want them back. But how have Turks taken away our lands, when and which lands? What is the basis of a legitimate claim that the lands subject to controversy are Armenian?

[Artur]

Well, the subject to the claim are the lands of eastern Turkey and even Nakhichevan. I personally don't support the idea of claiming our lands back, but nonetheless Armenians as the nation of Haik come from Eastern Turkey near the mountain of Ararat. And moreover, these are historically our homeland, including present day Armenia, which is a small eastern part of historical Armenia. About turks, there did not even appeared in the part of the South Caucasus and/or Eastern Turkey before armenians were living their.

 

Even though the idea of claiming the lands seem to be crazy but there are people who support it, and moreover there are politicians nowadays who start compaigns for demanding the lands, e.g. Hairikian, who demands, Nakhichevan, Kars and Ardahan, as they were given to Azerbaijan and Turkey in 1921 by Russia (Treaty of Kars).

[Harut]

well,well.

even though Armenians didn't have independence for most of their history, they always lived in the area Greater Haik.

whoever ruled over Armenians, they recognized the teritory as Land of Armenians,

except those eastern people that immigrated in the middle ages.

When i say Armenia i always imagine the Greater Haik, which included most of the eastern turky, south-western azerbajan, southern georgia, northern iran, and a little parts from northern iraq and syria.

i don't know how others but i think and always will consider that area ARMENIA.

 

even today, in this area (except) eastern turky) live great number of Armenians.

 

i don't how much i'm correct but that's what i believe in.

[Boghos]

As usual there are several ways of looking at issues. In this particular case I will limit myself to coomenting on two views.

 

The first, is the one that says that since we lived in that region for hundres of years and even ruled over it. That we have important cultural monuments in the area. And given that we were forcibly removed from it, we are entitled to have it back. This I shall call the romantic view. It is not based on any pragmatic notion of politics and actually, if it could actually be sustained would give room for som many claims all over the world that it would make it impossible to ascertain rights over any piece of land.

 

However, the second view, is the one that deals with the issue of possession. Over time there is only one way to secure it: force. Yes, one can point out to exceptions, where land was given to a certain group without bloodletting. But these are just exceptions.

 

Personally I think that Kars and Ardahan should belong to Armenia, and that there are basis for this claim. However I find it extremely unlikley that we will happen anytime soon. I defend the construction of a stronmg state, in the molds of Israel. Later we can think about other issues.

[MJ]

Boghos,

 

I basically agree with all of your observations.

 

The points that I wanted to make, when opening this topic are the following:

 

1. We had lost our lands to Iran and Byzantium long before the arrival of Turks;

2. Turks have not taken these lands away from us, but primarily from Byzantium;

3. During the second millennium, Armenians have become smaller and smaller minority on these lands;

4. For almost 1000 years, Armenians have not advanced any claims on these lands, nor have had aspirations for them;

5. Until the Genocide, the demography of Armenians on the historic Armenian lands has changed (in a negative direction) primarily due to the action taken by the Armenian Church, Shah Abbas, and natural assimilation. For example, a very significant percentage of Turks should have Armenian origin;

6. In the words of one of the then Prime Minister of the first Republic of Armenia, Khatisian ( if I am not mistaken - in two years we have had 5-6 Prime Ministers), when discussing the issue of “our lands,” as promised by ENTANTE, “if we would bring together all Armenians from all over the world, and hold each others hands, and line-up along the borders of the ‘promised’ land, we cannot even cover the borders;”

7. Throughout most of the history, at least the history of the last 1500 years, Armenia has been a geographic category, rather than legal or political;

8. The only existing legal-political framework regarding the territorial definition of Armenia may be advanced in the context of Eastern Armenia. When declaring its independence in 1918, Turkey has been the first state de-facto and de-jure recognizing its independence;

9. The Russo-Turkish Treaty of 1921 is the rampant violation of the international law, and is the deal stripping Armenia off of its legitimate attributes. However, the executor of that Treaty, as specified by the treaty itself, has not been Turkey, but Russia;

10. Any claims of the Eastern Armenian lands, if qualified to be realistic and executable, have to be directed at Russia, first of all, and then at Turkey.

 

In conclusion, I think the cultivation of the dream of “Our lands,” in its present form, and the institutionalised misleading of our people, are some of the greatest crimes of the Armenian political parties (primarily in Diaspora), the other organizations, and ideologists against our nation.

[Boghos]

Dearest MJ,

 

What can I say. I think nothing. Just that I am in 100% agreement with your very well thought out and detailed arguments.

 

Yours humbly,

 

Boghos

 

[ April 14, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Karine]

[ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Karine ]

[Azat]

...

...

 

While I agree with you, on many of the things that you said, i sure hope that Armenians do not do anything to harm the relationship that they have with Russia. Without Russia, Armenian will fall in no time.

[MJ]

Dear Azat,

 

With all due respect, I disagree with your statement.

 

Not that I am promoting deteriorating relations between Russia and Armenia, however. To the contrary, I am advocating improved relations between Armenia and all other states of the refion.

 

Additionally, I think Armenia may play an important role of a balancing factor in our complicated region.

[Azat]

MJ,

I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with you. Armenia has only one roll to play from the viewpoint of its neighbors, and that is additional land that they can take over. If it was not for Russia, Azerbaijan would be in control of Karabach. I strongly feel that the Turks would have helper the Azeri's in making sure that that was the case.

 

I know my statement is somewhat extreme, but I feel that Armenia was built by Russia. Armenians became some of the most educated thanks to Russia. Culture and Arts reached it's highest pick under Russia, and without them we have not done anything.

 

The arms that were raised united in 1989-91 for free Armenia have all been lowered in 10 years and today they are not asking for free Armenia, but for spare change. This is reality.

 

I do agree with your statement of "improved relations between Armenia and all other states". I personally do not care about the lands that Turkey has or anything like that. I am in favor of peace and more actions on economic improvements rather than anything else for Armenia.

[MJ]

Boghos,

 

I am sure, many others would disagree with us.

[MJ]

Dear Azat,

 

With all due respect, I have to disagree with you one more time.

 

Until the collapse of the Soviet Union, the entire Karabagh was reduced to a mere city of Stepanagert. All that was executed by the Soviet Special forces under the command of Soviet General Saphonov. What has saved Karabagh has been the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the pull-out of the Soviet/Russian forces from Karabagh, i.e. the fact of Armenians being left alone with the Azeries. Sure, there were small groups of Russian mercenaries fighting in the Armenian side, but there were also similar size Russian mercenaries in the Azeri side. As to the arms, the relationship of the arms acquired from the Soviet Army was about 1:5 against Armenians –in favor of Azeries. True, subsequently, Armenians have confiscated much of the arms that were under the Azerie control.

 

Your statement regarding building Armenia by Russia indeed is extreme. It would be accurate to claim, I think, that Armenia was built during the Soviet period. Does it mean that it would’ve not been built had Armenia been independent since 1918? And I agree that Armenian Science was built on Russian traditions. Thank God. As to the Art, that is a more questionable statement, and we have discussed it in our forum in the past.

 

As to losing more Armenian territories to the neighbors without Russia, I think this is a very one-sided opinion. Without Russia, other geopolitical alternatives may be implemented. Much of the implementation of the Genocide by the Turks has its roots in the Russian policy of our region. I don’t mean to undermine the responsibility of Turkey in it, and exaggerate the Russian responsibility. One has to also accept that much of the Armenian territories were lost in 1920’s due to the policies executed by Russia – not Turkey. Additionally, the Turkish advancement towards Armenia (in 1920) was inspired, aided and financed by Russia.

 

In fact, during 1918-1920 Armenia has had an excellent chance to build permanent peace with Turkey. But, instead, Russia and the idiotic Armenian political leadership have screwed up Armenia one more time.

 

One has to also accept that the only instance in history when the Armenian army has fought against the Turkish army has been in Sardarabad. You know the result. Basically, there is no other instance of Armenian resistance to Turkish army in our entire history, except perhaps the rebellion of Mkhitar Sbarabed, which in reality has been a local rebellion. Therefore, I think your implicit conclusions are inaccurate.

 

The economic failure of Armenia is indeed a reality. Is it because we “were left without Russia?” I think not at all. It is also reality that Armenia has received much economic aid from Russia – aid in terms of long-term loans. Can you think of anything else? Would’ve Armenia received such loans from other sources if Armenia was not in the Russian camp? I am sure the answer is yes. True, the nuclear station would’ve not been reactivated without Russia. The West, more exactly the US, remains opposed to it.

 

I don’t want to go into details, but my concluding moral would be that there is never just one alternative. I also would conclude that, by in large, the Armenian history remains misunderstood by Armenians, or better to say, Armenians don’t know Armenian history beyond cliches. Armenians have read few historic novels by some magnificent Armenian writers, and some of them on the subject of “Orhhnvi en shate, vor Russi orhnavats vote mer lis ashkharh@ mtav,” and have had at their disposal the entire Soviet Propaganda apparatus on how Turks would’ve eliminated Armenians if not for Russia. With the help of all three Armenian Political Diasporan parties, the same apparatus has actively implemented the same propaganda with even more success in the Diaspora. In fact, the Diasporan parties have had also additional, different from each other, however, incentives to implement such propaganda.

 

 

P.S. The above quote is taken from Khachatur Abovian’s “Verk Hayastani.”

[Azat]

MJ, I do not wish to get into a pissing match here with you. You have your opinions and I have my opinions.

 

But I would say one last thing. Telling me how Armenian army did against the Turkish army in the last ice age does not tell me anything. Turkey has a population of 66 million today.

 

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I do not think Armenia will survive without Russia. And it is not Russian propaganda. It is a sad reality.

[MJ]

Dear Azat,

 

It is very unfortunate that you have perceived our exchange as whatever match. Sure, you are free to have whatever opinions, you are free to defend them, and so am I. Furthermore, all of us have the right to try to refute the opinions expressed by others. And it is my understanding that this is the whole purpose of our forum.

 

Additionally, it has not been my logic that since we have won Sardarabad in 1918, we would win another battle/war with Turkey in our days. BTW, the USSR had a population of more than 250 million, and yet it lost in Afghanistan, it collapsed, and Russia has one of the lousiest economies in the world. Additionally, as evident, Russians cannot handle Chechnya. However, the pretext of my posting has not been “machoism.”

 

Also, the “reality” frequently is what we perceive it to be, not what it is in reality.

 

If anything in my current or previous postings has insulted you, I sincerely apologize.

[MJ]

We still have eggs in our basket, but those things that were in our purse are on their way to Uncle Sam.

 

So much about the Easter, right?

[Azat]

I know the feeling. But what do you expect from an organization with the following slogan: "IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got."

[MJ]

images/smiles/converted/icon_smile.gif

[bellthecat]

But it is mostly true for the pre-1917 period - or at least, almost everything (except pehaps the Church) was built on Russian foundations. It is true that most of Armenia's infrastructure was built during the Soviet period (but remember what surved in Leninakan after the earthquake - not buildings from the Soviet period, but those from the Russian empire!) However how much was Armenia as a NATION built during the Soviet period? And how much did things just stagnate for 70-odd years?

[MJ]

The Yerevan Brandy Factory (Shustov Coniak factory) was built by the Russians in the pre-1917 period.

 

The railroad, the other roads (whatever them may be) are probably also resulted from the capital investments of the Russian Government for the purpose of the movement of their military forces. But does it mean that if not for the Russians, no railroads would’ve been built in Armenia? Cannot we assume safely that they would’ve been built at least some 50 years later?

 

If this is going to be considered as built on Russian money, then we have to also take into consideration the taxes that the Armenian population has paid to the Russian Treasury, which have included taxes even on the wood that our villagers have used from the local Armenian forestry.

 

Obviously, I have no precise statistics on the size of the Russian investments in Armenia, and their net balance. But I can conclude that if they had significant net balance, they would’ve not easily moved their forces out in 1918, and propose the Finnish model for Armenia in 1919. And they were not very enthusiastic to take over Armenia even in 1920 – 1921.

 

I also don’t have statistics of what has survived in Leninakan. Perhaps others in the forum may be more qualified to speak on this subject. But I can attest to the following. The pre-Khroshchevian buildings in the entire Armenia have been of a pretty satisfactory quality. The quality of the buildings in Armenia, as well as in the entire USSR, have gone down in the Khrushchev era (so-called “khrushchobi” from the Russian word “trushchobi”), when under the slogan of providing everybody with public housing, and so that to make it possible, they have lowered the construction cost, while sacrificing the quality of the buildings. This has been of no consequence in non-seismic zones. I am aware of the insinuations regarding this topic, and have to claim that they are taken way out of proportions.

 

With all the continuing Russian influences, Armenia’s Nation building has been overwhelming in the Soviet era. In a way, Armenia has had the chance of filtering away the centuries old influences. Not completely, though.

 

The seventy years of Soviet Armenian history have been years of rapid and cinsistent development. The stagnation you are referring to has been of political character, and was attributable to the general Soviet political stagnation, which has started in 70s. It has picked up pace in Armenia with much more acceleration than in Russia.

 

The economic stagnation of Armenia has started in 1988, as a result of the lose of the contracts from the military-industrial complex of USSR (and the subsequent transportation blockade), which used to make the major chunk of overall Armenia economy.

 

According to the confession of the Soviet Central government, as published by the Moscow newspaper “Izvestia” in early 1988, Armenia and Azerbaijan have been the only two Soviet Republics (at least at the time), which have had net positive balance with the central economy of USSR.

 

[ April 15, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Azat]

MJ, Please do not misunderstand me. I am not insulted by any of the comments that you make. In fact I appreciate many if not all your comments. I consider you as one of the most intelligent people that I have exchanged ideas with on this board. There are things that I disagree with you about, but that does not mean that I have any negative thoughts against you.

 

My comment about teh match(which probably was not appropriate) was more because we each have our set ideas and I don't think either one of us is going to change our ideas on it.

 

There are many other reasons as to why Russia lost to Afghanistan, just as there are many reasons why US lost to Vietnam. (by the way, if I am not mistaken, neither country lost a single battle during those wars)

 

My opinion is that Armenia needs Russia at the current time. Your opinion is different. I understand.

[Azat]

BTW: I have thick skin so I do not get offended that easely. Please feel free to disagree me and say anything you wish.

[MJ]

I'm glad you are not insulted, Azat.

 

However, I haven't said Armenia needs or doesn't need Russia, or any other state. I have only attempted to introduce some factual clarity as it pertains to our history, have made a conditional statement on the subject of "Our lands" and Russia, and my implicte underlying thought has been that we should not put "all our eggs in one basket."

 

[ April 15, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Azat]

MJ, I totally agree with that part of your statement. The treaty signed by Russia and Turkey is why the "our lands" went to Turkey. Turkey is just an easy escape goat for Armenians.

 

As to your comments about "putting all eggs in one basket", my little cousins just came over and all the eggs that were in that one basket are all gone. Happy Easter my friend.

[Berj]

MJ, I think there is truth in what Azat has said.

The re-creation of Armenian legal entity in Transcaucasus began after the conquest of Yerevan by general Paskevich in 1828. After the Turkmenchai treaty the Russians enforsed Persia to agree with the dislocation of a large number of Armenians from New Jougha to the territories near Yerevan. At that time the Armenian population of Yerevan was around 20.000. In 1849 they established the Yerevan Goubernia (we didn't have any territory we could legaly claim until that day).
In 1918 it was the Yerevan Goubernia that became the basis of creation of the Armenian Republic.

The numbers of dislocation of the Armenian population can be a result of Soviet propaganda, however the creation of the Armenian legal entity is a fact. But I don't think Russians did it beacuse of some feelings towards.

[ April 17, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

[MJ]

Berj,

 

I cannot question your facts. But how do they imply that Armenia was built by Russia?