as i see it - Pt. III

[Sasun]

Ara, why would you "judge Christianity by its crimes"? Why not judge Christianity by its essence - Christ?

[axel]

Dear Ara, this is quite off-topic and I don't need any historical facts to support my thesis in a debate on ideological or philosophical principles but I wonder: Have you heard of one terror organization called the Tcheka? It wasn't set up by Stalin, was it?

 

[ February 07, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by axel:

THOTH, about capitalism and socialism:

I reject their full implementation that is I condemn them as fundamental principles for the organization of society (ie as religions) not as mere political systems. Both lead to slavery and exploitation and to the leveling of mankind. I for one do not consider any human system as perfect and I do not expect much from a socio-political system so I won't advocate any. Laws do not guarantee people do good. My criticism is not tied to the system itself but to the underlying spirit. Globalized capitalism and communism are both religions derived from materialistic premises that enslave Man to matter. There is no room for ethics in such ideologies. My view is that society should be organized according to ethical principles, which of course should not be enforced, but freely adopted.

Well then - join the club - like me you are Anarcist!

 

I'm actually being serious. I basically agree with this paragraph of yours. However I will add to your "no human system is perfect" - that neither are humans - thus laws certainly serve a purpose. But I fully agree - no human system is perfect - and ideology only goes so far/cannot be followed blindly. Thus capitalism - in its unfettered form - is no good - it has no provision for the "have nots" and those at the bottom etc - so it (at the very least) needs some form of compasionate overlay (perhaps using some socialistic concepts - [no?] - as most all modern cpatalistic societies have done - with perhaps some varying degrees of sucess)

 

Society based on ethical principals - OK =- but of course many would argue that that is what we have....

 

And the "freely adopted" - isn't it basically so? (this philosophy makes you an Anarchist BTW...) - an often misunderstood philosophy. It does not mean - no government - but full participatory & dynamic govenemt...perpetual revolution? (Trotsky BTW in case you didn't get the referennce)...of course a key piece is a sort of a contract among all citizens giving everyone ownership/responsibility and allowing for exile (essentially) if one begins to no longer wish association..etc etc

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by axel:

Have you heard of one terror organization called the Tcheka? It wasn't set up by Stalin, was it?

No - the Tchecka was established by Felix Derzinski (incorectly spelled)...even prior to the 1917 revolution I believe...

 

[ February 07, 2003, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[axel]

Sorry to disappoint you my dear THOTH but I am not a self-ignorant anarchist and I do not espouse the views of either Trotsky or Bakounine. Perpetual tabula rasa is diametrically opposed to my intimate beliefs I feel much closer to Berdyaev or Solzhenitsyn. Have you read the Harvard address?

 

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/...arvard1978.html

 

[ February 07, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by axel:

I am not a self-ignorant anarchist

There you go putting me down & showing no respect and assuming you know everything....shame.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by axel:

Solzhenitsyn. Have you read the Harvard address?

No I hadn't read it before. Thanks for posting. It was a very good read - he makes some great points. I have to differ with him on his conclusion however. (I don't have time but for a brief comment unfortunatly) He claims that Western man will basically only "behave" or constrain ourselves due to fear of/awe of? etc God. While i agree with him concerning the many fallibilities in man - I belive that the humanistic course is one that will lead to greater maturity in us as a people (sure some will always be bad and attempt to take advantage/exploit others - but I think that we have already conme a long way in this). It is a joke/aa great misunderstanding on his part to claim that the US founding fathers & such were unmaterialistic and that they were Christians (most werre deists and did not believe in the punishment of hell or in an anthropomorphic god - etc.

 

Solzhenitsyn beieves that mankind will always be children/sheep and require a shepard. This view has little "faith" in man. I think that it is sad that he/we feel that we must have some outside shoolmarm to disciplin us otherwise we will misbehave. If we are so rotten they why even bother?

 

As for us being overly materialistic & such - yes I would agree with much he says. But I think that if you look to the nooks and crannies of our society to the people who are living more frugally and who are doing things for others and for higher ideals etc you will find that as often as not they are humanists/pagans or such and not just Christians. I know many who are such and who espouse and live and work towards some very high ideals. Most of these folks are not Christian (though some are). So what i am saying is that it is possbile to be ethical and to live with high ethical pricipals and to reject the materialistic overide without bowing down to any higher (ficticious) power.

 

All I have time for now.

[Sasun]

It seems that these people live by principles that are shared by Christians as well. Them being not Christian is of less importance. I bet they believe in something else if not Christ. At least they believe that they should have a frugal life and do things for others. There is no logical explanation as to why.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sasun:

It seems that these people live by principles that are shared by Christians as well. Them being not Christian is of less importance. I bet they believe in something else if not Christ. At least they believe that they should have a frugal life and do things for others. There is no logical explanation as to why.

Well some are Wiccan...does that coun't?

[Sasun]

[Sasun]

... why are we talking off-topic in Ara Baliozian's thread

[axel]

Yes, who are you to say "who am I to say anything"?

 

THOTH, about capitalism and socialism:

I reject their full implementation that is I condemn them as fundamental principles for the organization of society (ie as religions) not as mere political systems. Both lead to slavery and exploitation and to the leveling of mankind. I for one do not consider any human system as perfect and I do not expect much from a socio-political system so I won't advocate any. Laws do not guarantee people do good. My criticism is not tied to the system itself but to the underlying spirit. Globalized capitalism and communism are both religions derived from materialistic premises that enslave Man to matter. There is no room for ethics in such ideologies. My view is that society should be organized according to ethical principles, which of course should not be enforced, but freely adopted.

 

[ February 07, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

[axel]

THOTH,

 

When I say, I do not advocate any particular political system; it doesn't mean I am for no political system at all (which happens to be a political system in itself ). I just consider that political systems can only play a marginal role in addressing mankind's challenges. Anarchists and socialists' main belief is that society corrupts man. In other words, evil lies in society and culture, not in man. Hence, changing society and destroying culture is the solution to evil in this world. This conception doesn't take into account man's conscience and spirit.

 

Evil exists both inside and outside us. Evil first has to be defeated in the realm of our own conscience. But it can never be completely eradicated as it belongs to this world. The fight between good and evil has no end for there will always be an antagonism between egoism and altruism, self-interest and common interest, pleasure and sacrifice... In fact, there exists a dialectical relationship between good and evil as, paradoxically, good sometimes comes out of evil, as suffering brings one to conscience. In any circumstance, spiritual development is the only solution for a better world as it enables man to master his instincts of destruction and tend towards altruism.

 

And Good doesn't have to reinvent itself.

 

PS: I'm quite glad we finally found some ground for mutual understanding.

 

[ February 08, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: axel ]

[ara baliozian]

Friday, February 07, 2003

*****************************

There are two kinds of readers:

the visible and the invisible.

The visible reader is eager to share his wisdom

but not necessarily wiser than anyone else.

The invisible reader is more often than not

an introvert who doesn't care to share his private thoughts

with people he doesn't know.

Unlike his visible counterpart,

he is a moderate, and a member of the silent majority.

The visible reader is often loud, assertive,

and a fanatic with a score to settle.

Sometimes he is also a member of the lunatic fringe.

*

If the world is saved it will be saved

by Christians who are less Christian,

by Jews who are less Jewish,

and by Muslims who don't give a damn

about what mullahs preach.

In short, the world will be saved by human beings

and not by members of a particular set, group, club, nation or race.

*

What kind of patriotism is it

that preaches love of country

but hatred of fellow countrymen?

And what kind of love of fellow countrymen is it

that preaches love for only those who agree with us?

[ara baliozian]

Saturday, February 08, 2003

*******************************

In one of his satirical portraits

Baronian speaks of a bishop

whose eloquence was such that

when he spoke of heaven

some members of his audience

wanted to drop dead then and there;

and his eulogies were so brilliant and unstinting

that the dead preferred to stay put in their casket

rather than go to heaven.

The good bishop’s choice of words,

comments Baronian, did not so much

reflect the character of the deceased

as his income bracket.

*

Subtract the mumbo jumbo, the double talk and the showbiz

from an Armenian speech and what’s left is a windbag.

*

A fool may also be defined as one

who thinks all stories have only one side – his.

*

The reason why some men have big egos is that

(according to Freud, Jung, and Adler, who agree

on nothing but agree on this) they have small

dicks.

[axel]

Yes, human beings with no identity, no soul, no faith, no culture, in short, non-human beings . I guess this is the group you belong to.

 

Well if this assertion is true, I am inclined to conclude you do have a small dick.

 

[ February 09, 2003, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

[Sip]

Yay, computers will save the world!

[nairi]

Well at least one thing's for sure: computers neither have dicks nor dick-envy...

[axel]

My dear Sip, I am afraid you don't fully grasp the hidden implications of Ara's nihilist philosophy. In the realm of computing, this would not even translate to platform or language independence but to no platform at all (non existence!) to guarantee independence. Suicide as the ultimate act of freedom as Kirilov puts it! As if we could not hold to the true orthodox faith, as if Stroustrup was not the truth!!!

 

Of course, we have to beware of all these false prophets that come to us in sheep clothing, you know, all these Java and C# evangelists who invite us to sell our soul for the ephemeral satisfaction of garbage collection and metadata introspection! Do not play into their hands and do not succumb to the temptation of writing C++.NET code!!! This would amount to major apostasy! We can no longer afford furher divisions. The old believers and the schismatics who sticked with ALGOL58 should be brought back into the true spirit.

[Sip]

Hmmmm ... seems to me like you're the one advocating the C#, the .Net, the ALGOL58, and archaic "orthodox" platforms.

 

I am with Ara on this. In the terms which you are proposing, I am the TRUE computer scientist looking for the ultimate truth behind things. I am not interested in a particular sect, group, company, platform, or computing model.

 

Oh and simply rejecting some established conventions doesn't make one a nihilist as far as I understand.

[axel]

LOL... I am a FALSE computer scientist, an apostate. I didn't think you would take my message seriously . Note that most analogy-based arguments are completely flawed.

 

But in all seriousness, there are elements of nihilism and Gerschensonism (Mikail) in Ara's messages. I am also inclined to consider him as an armenian Smerdiakov. But I'd like to hear from Vahan about this latter designation . After all, he is the Dostoevsky expert on this board.

[ara baliozian]

Sunday, February 09, 2003

*******************************

What I have been saying is this:

it is possible to be a good Armenian

and a decent, civilized human being.

If that’s being negative,

I don't know what positive is.

And I disagree violently with Armenians

who say or imply that to be a good Armenian

it is necessary to swim in a cesspool

of prejudice and ignorance.

If that makes me a destructive critic

I say so be it and I am more than happy

to plead guilty as charged.

[ara baliozian]

Monday, February 10, 2003

*******************************

Overheard on Canadian radio early this morning:

The former Prime Minister of Canada

delivered a lecture somewhere

in which he said that Canada

should refuse to participate in any international conference

where diplomats adopt an anti-Israeli stance.

He went on to identify these diplomats as anti-Semites

and explained anti-Semitism as a result

of "ignorance, envy, and delusions."

*

Raymond Chandler: "I was walking the floor

and listening to Khachatourian working in a tractor factory.

He called it a violin concerto.

I called it a loose fan belt…."

I suspect Chandler here is commenting

on the last few bars.

The slow movement is tender

to the point of being lacerating.

Chandler may have been anti-Soviet

but his works also bristle with anti-American remarks,

such as: "And the commercials would have sickened

a goat raised on barbed wire and broken beer bottles."

*

There is writing and there is anti-writing

which consists in recycling verbal crap

by means of worn-out clichés.

*

Unlike some of my fellow Armenians,

I am not allergic to common sense.

*

Wealth is like carrion -- it attracts vultures and

bishops.

[ara baliozian]

Tuesday, February 11, 2003

*********************************

Hugh Trevor-Roper, the historian who became famous

immediately after World War II

by publishing a book on the last days of Hitler,

is dead. In my mind his name will be forever associated

not with Hitler but with Toynbee.

Trevor-Roper was Toynbee’s most savage critic:

he attacked the work as well as the man;

and his attack was so ruthless and visceral

that Toynbee’s only comment was "No comment."

In the final volume of his STUDY OF HISTORY,

Toynbee answered all critics in great detail,

but mentioned Trevor-Roper’s name only in a footnote.

*

The brain and the intestine speak a different language.

When anti-Semitism is visceral,

no amount of reasonable arguments can shake it.

*

Overheard on the radio:

When asked to name his favorite operatic tenor,

an elderly Southern gentleman replied:

"Henry Cocoruso."

*

Sooner or later every charlatan is destined to run across

another charlatan who will contradict him

with his own brand of charlatanism.

*

When I was gainfully employed,

I lost several jobs because

I could not disguise my contempt for my superiors.

That’ s when I realized I had no future

in politics and diplomacy.

*

Nothing can be as absurd

as the ambition to achieve popularity among Armenians.

The best you can hope for is to be allowed to survive.

[ara baliozian]

Wednesday, February 12, 2003

********************************

Shahan Shahnour: "He who demands justice

in this crooked world of ours is a dangerous man.

But also one worthy of our adoration."

*

Never argue with a man who knows better

or thinks he knows better, or tells you:

"You will never change my mind!"

because he feels more comfortable with his own ignorance

than with someone else’s knowledge.

*

"There is nothing as delicious

as scandalizing the virtuous!"

and "We are a people with an insufferable tendency

toward solemnity."

The author of these quotations is not an Armenian

but a Chilean by the name of Isabel Allende.

*

To support a corrupt regime

has nothing do with patriotism

and everything to do with treason and betrayal.

*

Is there a difference between

a corrupt Turkish regime and

a corrupt Armenian regime?

None whatever.

*

If "a bourgeois is a bourgeois

regardless of national origin" (Lenin),

so is a parasite and a bloodsucker;

and all corrupt bureaucrats oppress and exploit

the weak and the dispossessed.

*

A corrupt Turkish regime

resulted in the massacre of a million and a half Armenian victims.

A corrupt Armenian regime

resulted in the exodus of a million and a half Armenians.

*

What is the difference between

a red and a white massacre?

[ara baliozian]

Thursday, February 13, 2003

***********************************

Dialogue is open-ended,

propaganda a dead end.

*

If an idiot is not contradicted

he will soon think of himself as a leader of men.

One reason why our political partisans

hate being contradicted.

*

In praise of moderation

(translated from the French):

"Better a little love that keeps you warm

than a big one that burns you."

*

You can always rely on a dishonest man

to prove his honesty by fabricating dishonest reasons.

*

We all have prejudices but some of us

are infatuated with them.

One of my most cherished prejudices:

I loathe individuals and cultures

that have not yet mastered the technique

of thinking against themselves.

*

If you and I had been born and raised in Turkey,

we would now hate Armenians.

But since we were raised as Armenians….

*

We tend to forget that our propaganda has as much

effect on others as theirs on us.

*

A single honest word spoken at the right time and

place can achieve more than an avalanche of verbal

manure.