Presidential Elections

[Vazrik]

Look at the issues and vote for issues, not the person (a person is an another tool). If they do not act upon their promises (khapen mez), kick that person out by electing next one. Are you saying there is no honest Armenian in the world, then why we are here?

[Rubo]

Dear WH,power corrupts not just Armenia but most Economically impoverished countries. Favoritism, cronyism is the real sad fact about corruption and human nature naturally gravitates towards those values unless there were a real check and balance system was in placed.

[Accelerated]

I think I am best qualified to be the head of the millitary. Pretty much know millitary history inside out and have been to paintball skirmish a few times . Anyhow, shortly after taking over the millitary , I would organise a coup and establish a millitary dictatorship. Needless to say, Martin will be sent straight to the guillotine for a public execution (a la Robespierre, LOL). As for the rest of you, better start begging now....

[wh00t]

I thought Der Bedrosian was considering running again, what happened? He's needed to solve the Artsax problem before Heydar croaks and Armenia dances the tango with Ilham.

[Harut]

it is stil mystery for me, why Ter Petrosyan resigned.

 

maybe someone can explain?

 

i remember his last speech, when he said

"... under the pressure of certain powers..."

 

but then i was young and didn't care much who was the president, as long as i could play soccer during the day with boys and flirt with girls at nights.

 

[ December 16, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Harut ]

[Accelerated]

Wasnt there an attempted coup that basically made him understand how unpopular he had become? I was actually surprised that he wasnt lynched, because he was so badly hated....

[Sasun]

Normally, if you are smart you have no chance of becoming a president (true in most countries and at most times). Show me a smart president.

Example of stupid president - GW Bush, example of average or lower intellect - Kocharian, etc....

[Sasun]

... in addition to the above, if you are also honest then you have absolutely no chance of becoming a president.

[EZ]

As I was catching up with the recent postings I noticed a lot of speculations about what's really going on in Armenia. So I was wondering, even though it's probably not meant to be so, this Hye Forum seems more a Forum for diaspora Armenians, or am I wrong? A lot of serious discussions are going on in English. I only rarely see someone from Armenia post or participate in the more serious discussions. Wouldn't it be a good idea to try to attract more Armenian Armenian members? Maybe the active language on the Forum should be Armenian? This is internet, it seems such a great opportunity to connect all of you and maybe even unite, for the sake of the RoA.

[nairi]

Elly jan, I can't speak for everyone else, but 1) internetting from Armenia can be quite an expensive endeavor; 2) not every Armenian speaks or writes fluent Armenian. I think diasporan Armenians just have more free time on their hands. Plus, wouldn't you agree that internet is not exactly the safest place to share serious opinions, let alone sensitive information? I wouldn't count on our true (political) experts to come on a public forum. Not now anyway.

[EZ]

1) Internet is expensive and so is owning a computer, but there are Armenian computers with internet access, and reading and typing can be done offline. When I was actively trying to learn Armenian I didn't have any problems finding Armenians from Armenia online through let's say ICQ. But maybe the question is more if people are interested in discussing politics.

2)If diasporan Armenians have problems with the Armenian language it may be a good idea to improve it.

About available time, diasporan Armenians may have more online time, but Armenians from Armenia seem to have time to talk about (in my opinion) much less serious things like cars and sex, so I don't believe that lack of time is an obstacle.

3) Internet not being a safe medium is true, if you are thinking of hackers and people who don't have Armenia's best interest at heart - I hope you are not referring to the Armenian government being able to gather info on "state dangerous" individuals through internet so that they know who to eliminate as a threat. But even so, there are means and, in my opinion, where there is a will there is a way.

 

While I was typing this posting I decided to talk to one of my old contacts in Yerevan, so I did just now and asked him "hows life in Armenia", he said "cold" then I asked if he's satisfied with the current government and he said "I don't care". I am not surprised to get this answer, I have the impression that a lot of them don't care. Actually, who DOES care except for the people on this Forum?

 

[ December 19, 2002, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: EZ ]

[Harut]

EZ,

most of the people in Armeian who are computer literate, have internet access, and have time to participate in diccussions are young people.

 

and, as is the case everywhere in the world, young people care to talk more about social life than politics/economy.

[nairi]

[EZ]

 

[ December 19, 2002, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: EZ ]

[EZ]

 

[ December 19, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: EZ ]

[nairi]

But you get the point, or not?

 

Yeah, please leave us alone. Don't you realize we're better off extinct?

[nairi]

Hmm. Yes, but my point is Armenian "non-freedom" does not equal Saudi's or China's non-freedom. Although freedom in Armenia, if you will, is limited, it is more limitless than in many other totalitarian countries. On top of that, I doubt there's a single country in the world that exercises total freedom. Let's face it, even in Holland freedom (of speech) is restricted (re: Armenian Genocide and many many more topics).

[EZ]

[nairi]

TV wise, I think every one will agree that ever since the closing down of A1+, the freest TV station, there isn't much criticism you can give anymore. I don't really know the situation in Armenia right now; all I know is that Kocharian can be very mean sometimes. Not long ago another journalist was killed in Armenia. It's ironical though, because Armenian newspapers don't seem to have trouble speaking openly about corruption and such. In fact, Kocharian himself has openly spoken about corruption. It's a strange situation. I wouldn't dare say more than this though. I think your questions deserve a more professional answer. I'm sorry, but I'm simply not the designated person for that.

 

Btw, see my reply above about "freedom". I think we're posting across each other.

[EZ]

Nairi, the subject is Armenia. Of course I know that limitations can vary, but that is not the issue here. We are not comparing countries' limitations. It is not a contest. The fact that there is/are even less/worse freedom/limitations is not relevant here now. And of course, Holland is not perfect, you'll never hear me say that.

 

By the way, your example of the genocide is not a valid one. Here you can take your case to court and prove it, that's what the court is for.

 

See, people in Holland also make mistakes, today as well as in the past, ordinary people as well as politicians. The point is that our rights here, are protected in the best thinkable way. If something goes wrong, one can go to court. If you don't have enough money for an attorny, you can even get one for free and it doesn't even need to be a bad one, since they all are obliged to take on pro deo cases.

 

Since you brought up the subject genocide and how it's being delt with in HOlland, I feel I should set a few things straight...

 

The mayor of Assen "requested" to the founder of the monument to leave out the word "genocide" in the inscription to avoid trouble with the Turks. The way I see it, by doing so the mayor acted unethicallly, because she abused the nasty situation in which the founder of the monument was at the time: being up against at least the whole Dutch-Turkish community which was even too much for the Town of Assen to handle. It was HIS name that appeared on TV and in the newspapers and HE was the one who lived in Assen where later the april24-demonstration was planned. I can imagine that the founder did not want to make trouble, especially knowing that he's a very peaceful man. So, he did what in his eyes was the smartest thing to do, to get his monument without causing any more trouble, he granted the majors request and "genocide" was erased from the text.

 

The way I see it, the Dutch government does/did not know what to do with this situation and has repeatedly tried to avoid escalations. In the Assen april24-demonstration matter, if I remember correctly, it was the april24-committy that agreed on the rules of the Assen Town, to not use certain (provocative) words. (I will dive into it again later; I believe we posted a lot about that on this Forum). So the committy agreed, but the agreement was not lived by during the demonstration, giving the Town (police, whatever) the right to take action.

 

I don't want to judge neither the founder of the Assen monument's or the april24-committy's decission to grant (in my opinion unethical, even unlawful) requests from our authorities. But it's not the fault of our Dutch system. The system works well, very well, but people should use it in the right way, well, actually the should USE their rights, period! The founder of the monument or maybe even the entire Dutch Armenian community, could still go to court to get the original text back on the monument. The april24 committy could go to court to complain about Assens 'requested' restriction, and based on our laws on freedom of speech the court cannot go around the fact that a town does not have the right to interfear with the content of what is to be expressed or published (this also goes for the text on the monument). The Turks could get mad all they want, but it would immediately mean that the Dutch government will (have to) acknowledge the genocide AS a genocide.

 

So, in case I'm being a little chaotic now, Nairi, don't put the blame where it doesn't belong. There is nothing wrong with the freedom of speech in Holland. The only thing that will happen to me when I say outloud that the Ottoman Turks committed a genocide over the Armenians, is that 387.000 Turks (at least) may fall over me or smash my windows. And the reason the media aren't interested, is not that they are scared to write about it, they are completely free to publish on any subject. It's just that the subject is no alive to the public here. You have to bring it to life. The monument was a perfect way to let it come alive here, it did at first, but then it died and I think the Armenians were as much to blame for it as the Dutch.

 

But back to the difference in limitations from country to country. My point of worry is (and of course any of you could tell me "what's it to you anyway"), that if people are not free to express their opinions, you don't have a way out. You need freedom to be able to develop yourself, that goes for indiduals as wel as for an entire people/country. If things need to change, how CAN they change when everything is kept in place by force. How can things change when there is no freedom to make the changes.

 

But, Ok, if the limited freedom of the people in Armenia is not so bad, just because in your opinions in China it's even worse, well, then why even touch the subject again. That's a lot of reason to be satisfied with what you have.

[EZ]

I have noticed that too.

 

B.t.w. never take anything I post personal, Ok? I'm not after hurting anyone, not lately that is.

[EZ]

By the way, Nairi, it's not at all uncommon to take the Dutch (local) authorities to court. They are known to make stupid mistakes and are not unlikely to use stupid arguments that won't hold in court.

 

I really think that you people should set up a case to put the word "genocide" back on paper. If a judge declares that the word is legitimate because it's a true fact that happened in the past, then you have what you want, the genocide recognized in the Netherlands.

 

By the way, have you seen this:

 

www.armenie.nl

 

The domain is registered by a certain G.Genc who I think is the same G.Genc that is chairman of the Turkish Forum Netherlands.

[EZ]

And I want to add that I have been extremely angry over this, to find out that 'our' Turks even go as far as stealing the only possible real Dutch Armenian internet domain.

 

On top of that... look at the content of the site.

 

[ December 19, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: EZ ]

[EZ]

Oh, about the domain. I already searched for jurisprudence (?) in this field (about 153 cases) and I think that there is a very good chance that a judge will take away the domain from the Turks to give it back to the Armenians. But I cannot help you do it, since I am not Armenian.

[nairi]

I wasn't attacking you btw I was simply stating the facts as I see them. Concerning Holland's limited freedom of speech about the AG, I was actually referring to the denial policy applied by Dutch journalists in Dutch newspapers. The fact that I have so far not read a single Dutch newspaper article that discussed the Armenian genocide without twisting facts, playing with numbers, and even reversing events outright, is enough for me to claim that freedom of speech in Holland is sometimes as limited, if not more, than in some of the most totalitarian countries around the world.

 

But the issue is Armenia. This is all can say about it: Armenia has hardly emerged from the Soviet Union. I would like to see Armenia change overnight, but I'm afraid that's unrealistic (or perhaps it isn't). In any case, there are still too many people who believe in limited freedom and total corruption. The question is: what can we do about this? I'm not surprised that people in Armenia have given up. Protest marches are often (violently) suppressed; the people's voice simply does not count. Even I've given up my idealistic views. Sometimes I think we need to hit ground zero really hard in order to realize what we're doing to ourselves. At other times, I think extinction is probably the best and easiest solution to our problems. Most of the time, however, I just put my blind trust into our "experts" and hope that they're doing the right thing. I like to think that we're progressing, no matter how slowly.

 

And no, just because China's freedom of speech is more limited than Armenia's, it does not mean that I'm proud of the situation in Armenia. I was just trying to say that things aren't as bad in Armenia as they are in many other countries, i.e. I don't think Armenia's secret agency is closely watching Hye Forum. I think Turkey's secret agency visits HF much more often than Armenia's (if Armenia's does at all). That's what I was trying to say: the situation is bad, but it could be worse, and it was much worse just seven years ago. Again, I like to think we're progressing, but I might be completely wrong. However, I'm not an expert in this field. I neither know the exact situation in Armenia, nor do I know what to do about it. Hopefully someone else can give better insight on this.

 

And don't worry, I didn't take anything personally. I hope you feel the same way about my writing. I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was attacking you, because that wasn't even on my mind.

 

Cheers,

Nairi