Sip Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Azat:... Now as far as the false(yes it a completely false) statistic that you mentioned about women earning less money than men. The stat released by some governmental agency says something like equally qualified women earn 76.5 cents to that of a dollar of men on average in this country. What a bunch of BS. If this was true, and I was running a shop I would fire all the men in the shop and hire all women. After all that would mean a savings of some 23-24%. Just think how brilliant I would be to be able to cut my costs by 25%.Wow! Simply brilliant Viva la capitalism, greed, and the pursuit of more money ... the most un-sexist, un-racist, indiscriminating forces in the Universe!!! [ December 29, 2002, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Azat:I have chosen never to have kids myself.Yay, let's create a commune where never-wanna-have-kids can grow old together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Loreley:So, I think that both individuals as Sip and individuals as the farmers, etc. should be rewarded for their work.I completely agree. I'll even go as far as to say that they should earn equal wages. As for women earning less, that is a fact of life. Prejudice, male arrogance and insecurity are the main reasons for this. Men LOATHE having to compete with women, even when they claim the opposite. So Azat, to answer your question from a staunch anti-feminist point of view: no. The corporation will most likely hire a man like Sipan rather than a woman with the same qualifications. As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West.Well, my mom was a successful doctor and surgeon in Iran with a very successful practice and tons of very happy and loyal patients that loved and respected her ... a respect which was certainly EARNED through years and years of hard work and dedication. My father was also a university professor for decades teaching mechanical engineering at one of the most prestigeous universities in Tehran. We had a house, two cars, and a dog which I loved. But they gave ALL that UP. Everything ... both material and otherwise. As my age got closer and closer to the mandatory army age, we left Iran with one suitcase per person, used up most of the money to pay this and that and the "fees" and the bribes and the colaterals that would supposedly ensure my father would return from his "sabbatical" ... which we knew very well wasn't going to happen. Needless to say, my mother has never treated a patient since (she is not licensed in the US and never had the time nor energy to go and relearn everything and pass the tests) ... and my father ... well, do you think anyone would hire an over 50 professor of mechanical engineering who spent the last decade in an islamic country shut-off from the world and the last several years traveling from country to country trying to survive with no up to date research or publications to show for it? Yes, it's hard to believe, but in this case, everything they had worked so hard for stayed with the ayatollahs ... they literally became poor nobodies after a LIFETIME of suffering and hard work. They will never have their own comfort, security, and respect that they had over there. It broke my hearth everytime I saw my mom counting coupons and trying to pinch every penny to feed the endless bellies of me and my brothers. But they will be somebodies again because of me and my brothers. So it wasn't all wasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by nairi:As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West.Well, my mom was a successful doctor and surgeon in Iran with a very successful practice and tons of very happy and loyal patients that loved and respected her ... a respect which was certainly EARNED through years and years of hard work and dedication. My father was also a university professor for decades teaching mechanical engineering at one of the most prestigeous universities in Tehran. We had a house, two cars, and a dog which I loved. But they gave ALL that UP. Everything ... both material and otherwise. As my age got closer and closer to the mandatory army age, we left Iran with one suitcase per person, used up most of the money to pay this and that and the "fees" and the bribes and the colaterals that would supposedly ensure my father would return from his "sabbatical" ... which we knew very well wasn't going to happen. Needless to say, my mother has never treated a patient since (she is not licensed in the US and never had the time nor energy to go and relearn everything and pass the tests) ... and my father ... well, do you think anyone would hire an over 50 professor of mechanical engineering who spent the last decade in an islamic country shut-off from the world and the last several years traveling from country to country trying to survive with no up to date research or publications to show for it? Yes, it's hard to believe, but in this case, everything they had worked so hard for stayed with the ayatollahs ... they literally became poor nobodies after a LIFETIME of suffering and hard work. They will never have their own comfort, security, and respect that they had over there. It broke my hearth everytime I saw my mom counting coupons and trying to pinch every penny to feed the endless bellies of me and my brothers. But they will be somebodies again because of me and my brothers. So it wasn't all wasted That is so beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Azat - I don't have time to fully answer now - but I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Sipan jan, I see refugees and migrants come here all the time. Some were successful in their countries, others weren't. Some are old with children, others are young without. But whoever CHOOSES to move up (even if they have to start all the way at the bottom again) do, and those who CHOOSE not to, move down and stay there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Azat: I certainly disagree that women and men earn almost the same (not in this planet), but we can go back and forth, you will still think that women earn the same and I will still think that they don't. Thanks for sharing your perspective , and most of all, for being respectful in doint it so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 I applaud immigrants who leave everything behind (family, job, home,status) to come here and to provide their children with the best. The moment that they have left everything behind for their children, they become heroes and great examples for their children in terms of survival, sacrifice, hard work, love, determination. Most immigrants who had a status in their country (job or degree or money), had to give it up in some way to be here. They never stop being "somebody" and they also become "unique," and "admirable." Sip: I know you were talking in financial terms when you said "somebody," I know you admire your parents. I understood what you meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:I completely agree. I'll even go as far as to say that they should earn equal wages. They tried this in the Soviet Union and it was a HUGE success. quote:As for women earning less, that is a fact of life. Prejudice, male arrogance and insecurity are the main reasons for this. Men LOATHE having to compete with women, even when they claim the opposite. So Azat, to answer your question from a staunch anti-feminist point of view: no. The corporation will most likely hire a man like Sipan rather than a woman with the same qualifications. So did you read the message above with the stats I listed. If all they say is true, why would a company hire Sipan and not Nairi since they both can do the same work equally as well and Nairi is 25% or 20% or 10% cheaper? Or do you think that not only men are "prejudice, male arrogance and insecurity" but also large corporate boards have not realized all the mistakes that are being made with not hiring women and saving boat load of money? quote:As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West.My parents gave up everything and at the age of 50 and 49 came to the states to start all over. My mom with a graduate degree in economics went to work in the garment district for $60 a week of hard work and my dad who had a degree in architecture went to work in shoe repair shop. Things did work out and after few years they did get back on their feet, but they have never achieved the status that they had, however are very happy with their decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:Sipan jan, I see refugees and migrants come here all the time. Some were successful in their countries, others weren't. Some are old with children, others are young without. But whoever CHOOSES to move up (even if they have to start all the way at the bottom again) do, and those who CHOOSE not to, move down and stay there.SO are you saying that it is a choice and not society that keeps them down? This is what I have been saying as well. Sorry, I know I am being a butthead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Loreley:Azat: I certainly disagree that women and men earn almost the same (not in this planet), but we can go back and forth, you will still think that women earn the same and I will still think that they don't. Thanks for sharing your perspective , and most of all, for being respectful in doint it so.Dear Loreley, I wish you could show me some stats where they show that women doing the same job in the US who are as qualified earn much less. But in any case, I hope everyone earns more money, because that means that boneheads like me would earn more as well based averages. I also hope that me being a bonehead once in a while and full of sarcasm, you or anyone else does not take that as a sign of disrespect. Quiet the opposite, I respect all on this forum. Very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by nairi:As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West.Well, my mom was a successful doctor and surgeon in Iran with a very successful practice and tons of very happy and loyal patients that loved and respected her ... a respect which was certainly EARNED through years and years of hard work and dedication. My father was also a university professor for decades teaching mechanical engineering at one of the most prestigeous universities in Tehran. We had a house, two cars, and a dog which I loved. But they gave ALL that UP. Everything ... both material and otherwise. As my age got closer and closer to the mandatory army age, we left Iran with one suitcase per person, used up most of the money to pay this and that and the "fees" and the bribes and the colaterals that would supposedly ensure my father would return from his "sabbatical" ... which we knew very well wasn't going to happen. Needless to say, my mother has never treated a patient since (she is not licensed in the US and never had the time nor energy to go and relearn everything and pass the tests) ... and my father ... well, do you think anyone would hire an over 50 professor of mechanical engineering who spent the last decade in an islamic country shut-off from the world and the last several years traveling from country to country trying to survive with no up to date research or publications to show for it? Yes, it's hard to believe, but in this case, everything they had worked so hard for stayed with the ayatollahs ... they literally became poor nobodies after a LIFETIME of suffering and hard work. They will never have their own comfort, security, and respect that they had over there. It broke my hearth everytime I saw my mom counting coupons and trying to pinch every penny to feed the endless bellies of me and my brothers. But they will be somebodies again because of me and my brothers. So it wasn't all wasted Nice post Sip, Your story touches a very personal chord. My parents lived a very similar struggle. Unfortunately, they didn't have the option of staying in Tehran once the revolution started. My father managed to get us out of the country on the condition that he stay behind. So we went on 'vacation' hopping about Europe while waiting for our immigration papers. My father left Iran in 1979 on horseback through the mountains into Turkey. He then used a false passport to fly to Germany and then France. We didn't see him for another two years. I can't imagine what they went through - to 'start over' from zero at 55 years old, with 3 kids in tow. Of course things worked out here in Canada, but as you said - they never attained the stature they had previously. We had a very nice life back in Parskastan, but my parents never regretted the things they gave up to ensure the safety & continued prosperity of their family. I will be forever grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Azat: quote:Originally posted by nairi:I completely agree. I'll even go as far as to say that they should earn equal wages. They tried this in the Soviet Union and it was a HUGE success.Azat jan, the Soviet Union was a totalitarian state. I know my comment is very unrealistic (in this world anyway), but I'm an idealist, so let me. quote:So did you read the message above with the stats I listed. If all they say is true, why would a company hire Sipan and not Nairi since they both can do the same work equally as well and Nairi is 25% or 20% or 10% cheaper? Or do you think that not only men are "prejudice, male arrogance and insecurity" but also large corporate boards have not realized all the mistakes that are being made with not hiring women and saving boat load of money?But why do they pay lower wages to the dedicated women that they do hire? (I'm not speaking of all corporations btw, but many/most). quote:As for leaving everything behind to come here: why? My parents only left behind what they chose to leave behind (and I'm not talking material). If you could have a comfortable and respected life in Iran under Khomeini and his Ayatollahs, or Armenia under Communism, I don't see how you can't have an even more comfortable and respected life in the West.I knew I would get my butt kicked for this comment, but I have actually seen refugees/migrants make it very far in these countries. Much further than they would have if they had stayed in their own countries. I don't disrespect those who had to leave everything behind and weren't able to pull themselves up again btw. I was just saying that it IS possible to do so, and it is also possible not to do so. quote:Sorry, I know I am being a butthead.Only because I am one as well, will I forgive you. But yes, we agree: it is your choice and not society's; especially in the West where almost anything is possible. Sorry if I sound a little blurry. I'm still a bit overwhelmed by this young girl we had to break for tonight. It was late, pouring rain, she was drenched, and walking slowly down the middle of the road toward us with a very morbid, suicidal look on her face. I wish I could've stopped to talk to her, but circumstances (i.e. certain people in the car) didn't let me. I felt very guilty. I'm just hoping to God that someone else did stop to talk to her, or at least tried to calm her down somehow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 hehehe ... if you are suicidal, I guess it makes sense to jump in front of Nairi's car Just kidding Nairi ... I realized I sounded a bit too melodramatic above but Nairi struck a chord I guess But it was all true. Vava and Azat, very enlightening to hear that we have similar stories! I just hope one day our decendents keep the memory of those selfless sacrifices alive ... I realize it's really maybe not that selfless since in their own minds, their children are parts of themselves ... but never the less, those are some noble qualities in deed which I hope to mimic one day [ December 29, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:They tried this in the Soviet Union and it was a HUGE success.Actually, in the USSR labourers earned three times as much as foremans/site managers, despite the enormous responsibilities of the latter.... quote:Your story touches a very personal chord.Yes, same here....I remmember my dad sold everything we owned (we were pretty well off also), and all we were able to get here (after the expenses invloved in getting the status, airfares etc.) was a washing machine and a small TV (the smallest 34cm). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 quote:those are some noble qualities in deed which I hope to mimic one day Well, lets hope we wont have to make such great sacrifices to ensure the best for our kids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:...I just hope one day our decendents keep the memory of those selfless sacrifices alive ... I realize it's really maybe not that selfless since in their own minds, their children are parts of themselves ... but never the less, those are some noble qualities in deed which I hope to mimic one day Well said. Personally I plan to ensure that their sacrifices/memories are honoured, at the very least by the generation that follows us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Aside from this discussion what fascinate me is how one-dimensional our forum members are. It seems that had we had the opportunity to meet in person lot of misconceptions will melt away.Sip revealed some family background and to be honest I visualize him more in two dimension now .It is difficult to get a sense of the person on the forums like this unless they reveal something of personal level the person will continue to remain as the issues they talk about. Anyway I was never interested about a person based on issues but more on character, personality-issues for me are transitory hence what one thinks today will change later but what one is in essence will never change. I do love to hear more personal accounts of this forum members since it only brings more dimensions to the person beyond names real or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Aside from this discussion what fascinate me is how one-dimensional our forum members are. It seems that had we had the opportunity to meet in person lot of misconceptions will melt away....Interesting comment Rubo, It is really a 'give-and-take'. On one hand we have the freedom/anonymity to discuss issues on a 'pure' basis. Arguments are judged by their value/contribution to the discussion without the influence of the identity/personality of the person making them. On the other-hand as you state, we may possible have a greater insights into certain arguments if we were to have a better undertanding of the backgrounds/circumstances of the participants. I'm not sure if you can combine the two. It's a double-edged sword, IMO. Personally I think that forums like this allow us yet another venue to discuss/learn/express our ideas - if we don't really 'get to know' the personalities behind the arguments, well, I'm not too sure if that's a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Vava, you have raised great points and something to think deeper…but my comments are driven from the experience of being personally verbally assaulted precisely because of issues on hand however had that person knew something more about who I really am in real live they might of showed greater restrain. Great Example is Ara Baliozian.He gets unjustly verbally abused on regular bases but few if anybody knows him as a living breathing person who we can hurt deeply by our vulgar comments. Unfortunately some people take advantage of the anonymous nature of the Internet and therefore feel free to reveal their worst possible traits. That is why I feel knowing more about the person beyond issues may remind one that there is a real person beyond those lines and not unfeeling, unmoving caricatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Rubo - I applaud you for your honesty and for revealing insites to your personality likes/dislikes, family stuff (your son and chess etc) - all very refreshing. I may not agree with all of your positions on things - but I must say that you are a poster whom I think posts from the heart without ulterior motive and I almost always look foreward to your posts. Continue to surprise us. As for your proposal - sounds great - but its something that I don't think you can force. And for various reasons may not work for everyone. I think though, that after a number of posts we can get a pretty good understanding of where most everyone is coming from (on certain limited levels - though not just one dimensional). For the most part i find this satisfactory. What could be nice is if there are circumstances where some can actually meet. In some forums I belong to we call these "off-lines". A Hye forum Off line would prove very interesting I think - to say the least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Rubo jan, You are absolutely right. My comments above are limited to the contructive, respectful discussion of issues. As we both know, many discussions, especially those of a more sensitive nature, can quickly degenerate and become personal: ripe with name-calling and verbal abuse. I believe this can happen in any discussion, not just those on-line. Although I agree with your point that participants can hide behind their on-line anonymity and perhaps go a little farther in their abuse, than they would in person. One thing is for sure: verbal abuse and insults of a personal nature are not condusive to constructive discussion, and do not contribute positively to any real discourse. IMO, the moderators here at Hyeforum are doing a fantastic job in allowing forumers to express their opinions in an environment that is, in general, free of inappropriate posts/abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:...What could be nice is if there are circumstances where some can actually meet. In some forums I belong to we call these "off-lines". A Hye forum Off line would prove very interesting I think - to say the least...I agree Thoth! But it would be a logistical nightmare to be able to get everyone (or at least those interested) together at one time/ one place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thoth thanks for kind words. You made me reach and open a reserve Malbec from Argentina. No, I got no cellar more like a kitchen wire hanger.Vava jan we dance in the same circle. H.N.Y. to everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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