Juggernaut Posted October 5, 2001 Report Share Posted October 5, 2001 Well said Artur, and I fear what the US and its 'Allies' are about to do will only make things worse. And the US has no real allies, when its economic dominance is gone so will its allies for past mal-treatment and arrogance. I would even say that 90% of the world population (outside the US) dislike for one reason or another the US government.'The leader of the free world', my buttocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 5, 2001 Report Share Posted October 5, 2001 Artur - It may be true that Armenians were happy when something negative happens to Turks. If so than I am very saddened by it. It makes me cringe when I hear that someone could possibly celebrate the death of another person. However my surprise was that CHURCH leaders were saying the above and I am 99.9% certain that it would not happen in other mainstream churches. Am I wrong? Juggernaut - This thread is not the place to discuss this, but why is America so evil. Everyone kisses US ass when they need our money, but they all bitch about us when they get it. (this includes Armenia/Armenians) We gave so much money to that part of the world, but nobody remembers it. We were even the largest donors of money to Afghanistan(140 million last year and 320 this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 quoteEveryone kisses US ass when they need our money They kiss ass, because they have NO CHOICE. If they dont then the US would do to them what they did to Yugoslavia (Kosovo), Russia (Chechnya), Indonesia (East Timor, Aceh) and half-a-dozen other places. quotebut they all bitch about us when they get it. Your preatty naive, do you think the US just gives away money for no reason? Ever heard of LOANS and INTEREST? Most of these loans also have 'stings attached'. And whatever aid is given for free is usually food, which is surplus US farmers production sent abroad so as to keep local prices up and the farmer lobby happy (plus the propaganda value). quoteWe gave so much money to that part of the world, but nobody remembers it. Read above. quoteWe were even the largest donors of money to Afghanistan Are you saying the US sent aid to Taliban? I doubt it, maybe in terms of surplus food, but not money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 Azat jan, i explained you why people think that US is evel. It is not because of envy, it is because of their politics. The things the US government does is terrible. They try to intervene every problem and solve it in its own way... About Afghanistan, 20 years ago, it was the US who "created" Talibans. They were the one who supported them. They helped them financially and with weapons. The soviet government fought with them, and the US tried to turn it to Vietnam war, by helping the Taliban. And there is nothing to doubt. The Taliban came to power because of help which came from the west. The world was against "aggresion" of the USSR against Afghanistan. About, Ben Laden, i don't think he was the one who organised it. But i am sure he knew, and if he did know about it, surely he earned another couple of dozens of million dollars. About church, i dont think that something like that would happen, but some people are really upset. However, all ASALA members are heros of Armenia, and they were burried according to armenian traditions and to church. And many people, including me, supports their actions. [ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Artur:However, all ASALA members are heros of ArmeniaBy targeting Turkish civilians, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 Thorny, the topic is basic Islam... )) By the way, do you want me to hoock you up with my friends in turkey or not? ) Don;t worry your future husband won't find out... it'll be confidential... )) And for the question: no. She will pray to God for my soul to go to heaven, and i'll be happy to die so fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:By targeting Turkish civilians, eh?Yes!!! 60-70 per cent of people died in genocide were women and children! I don;t care about fedayis, they are born to die, but it is out of limit to kill a little child and attack a woman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Artur:Yes!!! 60-70 per cent of people died in genocide were women and children! I don;t care about fedayis, they are born to die, but it is out of limit to kill a little child and attack a woman!The barbaric practice of eye-for-an-eye is very attractive for Christians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted October 6, 2001 Report Share Posted October 6, 2001 Not as much as it is for turks like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 Even though I must say I respect the ASALA and their members for their bravery, I dont think their actions will better our position. These days its all about world public opinion and terrorism is not seen in a very positive light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 Levictis 24: 21-22 "'If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. I am the Lord your God.'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 Artur, Thst is not from what remains of the texts of Jesus disciples. I thought that you were living in the 18th century. Now I think that you are living in the 8th Century B.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by khodja:Artur,Thst is not from what remains of the texts of Jesus disciples. I thought that you were living in the 18th century. Now I think that you are living in the 8th Century B.C.Thanks for the compliment, but who really cares what yo think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Hmayk:Not as much as it is for turks like you. Go hump cuneiform tablets. quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:Even though I must say I respect the ASALA and their members for their bravery, I dont think their actions will better our position. These days its all about world public opinion and terrorism is not seen in a very positive light.Bravery? What bravery? Killing Turkish civilians? quote:Originally posted by Artur:Levictis 24: 21-22"'If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. I am the Lord your God.'"Good for you - I guess, if the book asked you to eat shit, you would do that, too. Or would you? But you WILL kill, huh? The latter is worse than the former, just in case you haven't noticed in your utter twerpness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 Artur, I am aware of many the horrible, and I mean horrible things that US has done. CIA even bombed a mask in Lebannon( I may be wrong about the location) in the 80 full of innocent people. Believe me I know. However my comments still stand. For Kosovo you need to understand why US got involved. NATO countries in Europe begged US to get involved because of all the horror that was going on. We(Armenians) feel that nothing bad was happening because it was the Muslims who were being punished. And after US got in and did it's work it tried to get out when the new administration got in, but the NATO countries begged US to stay. Do I think that there is a reason for the terrorist acts that happened in NY and Washington DC last month, sure I can think of reasons, but no civilized nation would have done what they did. I also am against the BS war against Terrorism, because it is not going to result in and of Terrorism. If you look at my previous posts in the News section you will see some of the reasons why I am against it. As for ASALA, I am not proud of any of the terrorist thing that ASALA had done. None. In fact I am saddened by their actions. I am sure you can find many Armenians who fill the same way. US did not create the Taliban, but it really does not make a difference. US aided the Afghanis in the war against the USSR and partially because of that we today have a free Armenia. There has been a lot of research in this area. After USSR spent billions in fighting in Afghanistan and a decade of draining its money it went back home defeated with it's tail between it's legs. Soon after that Hungry and Czechoslovakia came to the conclusion that the "Tiger" that Soviet empire claimed to be was only a Tiger on paper. And soon after that the republics did their spilt. So that war had lots of consequences for the Soviet Union. (Do you guys mind if we take this conversation to a different section. Not Basic Islam?) [ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Azat ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:You do not kill anyone because they spread misinformation. Well, maybe YOU do, but civilized people don't.A basic fact for idiots: diplomats are civilians.Hehe... and do you know what turks claim? The genocide happened because of Dashnaks who spread the disinformation about turkish governemnt and it would be better to be with armenia. So, for this only reason, they've killed 1.5 million people, who did not even know about Dashnaks, they did not do anything against turkish government, they were living peacful life. So, it is ok for turks to kill 1.5 million because one organisation wanted to free armenians... And ASALA members are indeed brave, they know that they will end up either dead or in prison, but they do it for their own country!God rest the souls of these heros! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Artur:Hehe... and do you know what turks claim? The genocide happened because of Dashnaks who spread the disinformation about turkish governemnt and it would be better to be with armenia. So, for this only reason, they've killed 1.5 million people, who did not even know about Dashnaks, they did not do anything against turkish government, they were living peacful life. So, it is ok for turks to kill 1.5 million because one organisation wanted to free armenians... And ASALA members are indeed brave, they know that they will end up either dead or in prison, but they do it for their own country!God rest the souls of these heros!ConservArtur, I see before me a man who is narrow-minded in every aspect possible.I never claimed what most claim - and none will never think of it in terms of "they deserved it, serves them right!" etc., though it may come to this.As for "sacrifice for cause" and the rest of that gleeb - the guys who flew those planes into the towers in New York have amazed some people - "These are true believers!" have been the exclamations. They had determination, yes. Yet what have they achieved? Zilch.Same with your ASS-ala.I believe in Santa Claus and I hope those boys don't get their Christmas presents.You're such a lame avoider... How many times do I have to ask you if your wife will be a nimble and measly weakling or if she will drive you to the hospital? You're not half as smart as you try to fancy yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 Juggernaut, I am not naive. I actually know what I am talking about. I know that US gives billions in loans, however it also gives billions in aid. Do you think the money given to Armenian is ever going to be repaid? If you think so, than you are naive. By the way, I do not think that the US gives loans or aid for no reason. It wants the world to "love"(I can't think of a good word) the USA, or to move forward US interests. But do you think other nations do things just for the hell of it? True, US did not give any money this last round. Actually nothing has been given yet. The plains with US aid(food mostly) left US to Germany just today. They are going to have air drops in the next few days. 320 million dollars worth of food. In general I would ask that you read a little more about the comments that I made before you call me naive. If you need to research some of my comments you can start at the State Department website. They have all this info for you because majority of things that happen in the US government are public information because of our "Freedom of Information" act. Good luck. As far as not having a choice. I am sure Armenia had the choice to say yes or no to the 80+ million dollars that they got from USA. I am sure I know their answer. This is also true of most nations. By the way, are you saying that Kosovo did not accept US money and thus US bombed it? I am not sure what you were saying there. On your last comment. US did give 160 million in money and food aid to Afghanistan. Check the records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:By targeting Turkish civilians, eh?they killed diplomats who spread dis-information about our people; ASALA disbanded to fight in Artsax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted October 7, 2001 Report Share Posted October 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:they killed diplomats who spread dis-information about our people; ASALA disbanded to fight in ArtsaxYou do not kill anyone because they spread misinformation. Well, maybe YOU do, but civilized people don't.A basic fact for idiots: diplomats are civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 quoteI know that US gives billions in loans, however it also gives billions in aid.Giving aid in THE FORM OF LOANS. The only time when the US has given money as a gift has been to fullfil its own interests and goals. quoteDo you think the money given to Armenian is ever going to be repaid?It may or may not be paid back in terms of CASH. BUT we will be forced to pay it back in one form or another. quoteI do not think that the US gives loans or aid for no reason.Correct, and I dont think 'love' has anything to do with it. quote320 million dollars worth of food.Yes, surplus food that would otherwise rot in a barn. quote:They have all this info for you because majority of things that happen in the US government are public information because of our "Freedom of Information" act.Yes, but seems to me that the most important information is never public. quoteAs far as not having a choice.By no choice I meant, they had no choice in their political stance not in accepting US loans. quoteBy the way, are you saying that Kosovo did not accept US money and thus US bombed it? I am not sure what you were saying there.See above, and I was not talking about Kosovo, but Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was Russias only ally left in the Balkans, she was punished for this by what took place in Kosovo. quoteOn your last comment. US did give 160 million in money and food aid to Afghanistan. Check the records.Probably going to the Northern Alliance to buy more weapons and hunt down Bin Laden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 quoteWhat is wrong with that? Nothing, but its only a short term solution to countries that this 'aid' has been provided for. In the long term they are worse off, just look at Africa. quoteEuropean economy was in the doldrums after WW2 and it was US that saved/revived it. Who was the US going to trade with if Europe was down the drain? quoteIt even forgave the interest and the loans that it gave to to many countries there. Read above quoteWhat is wrong with that? You would prefer for that aid not to given and for the food to rot and for all those people to stay hungry? Nothing is wrong with that, but I want everyone to understand that US citizens are NOT worse off when 'aid' is given. quoteThe freedom of information act makes all information public except the information that is in concern with the defense of the country. To put it in the right perspective, what the US government DEEMS to be concearning defence. quoteWorld would be hell if Armenian had the power and money that US has. Armenians may be more prejudeced and opinionated than Americans, but I assure you the average Armenian is much more intelligent that the average American. quoteI am not sure about that Well, I am because the Taliban is not recognised, and therefore all aid going to the government of Afganistan would in fact be going to the Northern Alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 quote:Who was the US going to trade with if Europe was down the drain? Exactly. I have never claimed that we look for nothing in return. We look for the benefits that we can get form every situation. quote:Nothing is wrong with that, but I want everyone to understand that US citizens are NOT worse off when 'aid' is given.Only a VERY small percentage of US people claim that they are worse off when US aids others. Those are the people at the extreme ends of the spectrum. quote:To put it in the right perspective, what the US government DEEMS to be concearning defence.I bet very little difference between what is and what it deems. But neither you nor I can prove that since we don't know. quote:Armenians may be more prejudeced and opinionated than Americans, but I assure you the average Armenian is much more intelligent that the average American.So we always claim. We may have much broader knowledge, but we hardly know how to put that knowledge to good use. quote:Well, I am because the Taliban is not recognised, and therefore all aid going to the government of Afganistan would in fact be going to the Northern Alliance.Somewhere in previous posts I already mentioned that US just like all other countries does not give aid(in any form) to it's enemies. However the aid in Afghanistan was distributed to everyone through the relief agencies.Here is some more info for you about aid that US provided to the Afghani people.Since the beginning of fiscal year 2001, the United States provided nearly $184 million in humanitarian aid to Afghans. This amount includes contributions from the U.S. Department of Agriculture ($99.8 million), the U.S. Agency for International Development ($50.55 million), the Department of State ($32.6 million); and the Centers for Disease Control ($569,000). The United States has supplied more than 80 percent of all food shipments sent to vulnerable Afghans through the United Nations' World Food Program, and will continue to be the leading food donor to the Afghan people. Hmmmmmmm. Makes you wonder doesn't it. US has only the 5% of the worlds population yet it provided 80% of the aid. What have the people of your wonderful coundtry done?[ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: Azat ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 quote:Giving aid in THE FORM OF LOANS. The only time when the US has given money as a gift has been to fullfil its own interests and goals.What is wrong with that? Name me a country that gives money or food or any other kind of aid for the benefit of it's enemies or for any other reasons. quote:It may or may not be paid back in terms of CASH. BUT we will be forced to pay it back in one form or another.US has given aid and loans to any countries and not many have complained that their payback was stiff. European economy was in the doldrums after WW2 and it was US that saved/revived it. The only payback it got was peace in Europe and friends in majority of countries in Europe. It even forgave the interest and the loans that it gave to to many countries there. quote:Yes, surplus food that would otherwise rot in a barn.What is wrong with that? You would prefer for that aid not to given and for the food to rot and for all those people to stay hungry?Your argument is one similar to those who are anti business who claim that business never does anything for the benefit of the people but rater the financial gains that it expects to make. Who the F*** cares? Do you and I benefit from it? If yes that I say it is good. Same here. If the receiving country benefits from the food that was going to rot in US than great. quote:Yes, but seems to me that the most important information is never public.Not true at all. The freedom of information act makes all information public except the information that is in concern with the defense of the country. quote:By no choice I meant, they had no choice in their political stance not in accepting US loans.Hey when you are the 800 pound gorilla, you get to push others around. And US does it's part, but I would say one thing there is no other country that I would like to be that 800 pound gorilla. This includes Armenia. World would be hell if Armenian had the power and money that US has. quote:Probably going to the Northern Alliance to buy more weapons and hunt down Bin Laden.I am not sure about that, but it very could have given money to the Northern Alliance. I do know that grain went to relief agencies all over Afghanistan, not just Northern Alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted October 8, 2001 Report Share Posted October 8, 2001 quoteI bet very little difference between what is and what it deems. But neither you nor I can prove that since we don't know. But one may always change their opinion when they are better informed. quotebut we hardly know how to put that knowledge to good use. Please expand on this statement. quoteMakes you wonder doesn't it. US has only the 5% of the worlds population yet it provided 80% of the aid. And as I said, food that would otherwise rot in a barn. And why doesnt the US give the food to its own many starving and homeless?Also, population is not a measure of wealth. [ October 08, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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