hyebruin Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:Oh and BTW - one who is one with the Dao already lives in your ocean. THOTH, it is your ocean too But somehow, I don't think you live in the ocean yet I like your answer! That's what I would say ~~~~It just dawned on me! you guys are talking about Taoism! duh! Oh, yeah, great stuff! I used to read a lot on this when life was less hectic!!! There's this great book out there "The Tao of Physics" by a physicist(Fritjof Capra?)...fascinating stuff!!! It's one of those books, much like others in this area of trying to understand consciousness/physical world/energy/etc..., where you have to be truely open and READY to fully appreciate it! Once you stop thinking and analyzing, and just start being, living and connecting...you cannot help but be touched by the pattern of life (starting with your own) and most importantly...the vast intelligence our bodies have...our hair, skin, blood, organs...to keep us healthy...all the molecular events at the DNA level...all the different types of proteins, especially the immune system, and the time specific gene expressions...(diesease? that's karmic and each different type--no matter how severe or cruel--is there to serve a purpose, better have the body suffer and learn than for the soul not to advance!)how can one say all this came from nothing? evolution? but what is the driving force? the intelligence behind evolution? there's a pattern, there's a design, there is a compassionate architecht... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote: ...(diesease? that's karmic and each different type--no matter how severe or cruel--is there to serve a purpose, better have the body suffer and learn than for the soul not to advance!) Yes, and more than that. God is in each of us (including THOTH ). When we suffer He also suffers. He experiences whatever we experience. We suffer not because God is cruel, but because it is part of the big game. Why? Because of His mysterious wisdom. [ January 17, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Sasun ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun:Yes, and more than that. God is in each of us (including THOTH ). When we suffer He also suffers. He experiences whatever we experience. We suffer not because God is cruel, but because it is part of the big game. Why? Because of His mysterious wisdom.I think I know what you mean ... like when someone else gets kicked in the nuts and you feel his pain shooting right through your entire body ... so what you are saying, is that that is actually God in me? I think I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Tao quote:The river and sea can be kings ofthe hundred valley streamsbecause they are good at lying below them.For this reason,They can be kings of the hundred valley streams.For this reason, too,If the sage wants to be above the people,in his words, he must put himself below them;If he wishes to be before the people,in his person, he must stand behind them.Therefore,He is situated in front of the people,but they are not offended;He is situated above the people,but they do not consider him a burden.All under heaven happily push him forward withoutwearying. Christ - humble as the Lamb, great as King of the Kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loreley Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 I think that sometimes because life can be difficult, there is this human necessity to believe in something/someone that cannot be seen, to have that faith that will keep people going. I have more faith in myself than in anybody/anything else. I personally do Not believe or follow any particular religion because religion has became an institution, it has been the cause of so many wars, deaths, persecutions. I do not believe in hell or heaven. The idea of hell and heaven feels like a way to scare people so they won't do bad things. I think we have days that feel like heaven and other days that don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote:I think I know what you mean ... like when someone else gets kicked in the nuts and you feel his pain shooting right through your entire body ... so what you are saying, is that that is actually God in me? I think I understand. Yes, that is what I mean, like a parent feels the pain of the child. But there is more to that.Because God is inside us as our soul, he is bound to act through us. He gave us the freedom to act as we wish, while He is like in a cage. When we are in physical pain, He feels our pain because He is bound to. When we commit a crime, he suffers because it is against His will. Nevertheless, He lets us do it. When we hurt each other, He suffers even more, because He hurts against His will, and He gets hurt in the other person. When we are happy, He is happy. He wants us to be happy God is free and almighty. Why did He give us freedom if we are imperfect and unwise? He suffers a lot. That is a big sacrifice and a big mystery, only He knows why. But because of His infinite Grace we will come to our senses and get back and unite with our origin There is a detailed description in ancient Eastern religions how it all works, like a science but not science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Sasun/hyebruin - all this is very wel and nice (and I am thrilled that you are at least familiar with Daoism and some of its comcepts) - but I must say this has nothing to do with Christianity and an anthropomorphic, demanding "God" in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:...and ultimately the goal of organized religion is to make people realize that they themselves do NOT need the church, the priests...etc. The true mission of religion is (or at least should be!) to empower people and let them know that they THEMSELVES are the source of that empowerment... Why is it that in reality it is just the opposit of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Oafffffffffffffff, the way people are preoccupied with this boring thread is no fun.Entertain me, provoke me my thoughts, slay me yonder ram... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hmmm...what if "God" was Turkish? Hows that? - LOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Yes, that is what I mean, like a parent feels the pain of the child. But there is more to that.Because God is inside us as our soul, he is bound to act through us. He gave us the freedom to act as we wish, while He is like in a cage. When we are in physical pain, He feels our pain because He is bound to. When we commit a crime, he suffers because it is against His will. Nevertheless, He lets us do it. When we hurt each other, He suffers even more, because He hurts against His will, and He gets hurt in the other person. When we are happy, He is happy. He wants us to be happy God is free and almighty. Why did He give us freedom if we are imperfect and unwise? He suffers a lot. That is a big sacrifice and a big mystery, only He knows why. But because of His infinite Grace we will come to our senses and get back and unite with our origin There is a detailed description in ancient Eastern religions how it all works, like a science but not science.[/QB] ~~~It's really cool to "see" people (especially other Armenians) think like this!!! It's how I think! I know exactly where you're coming from, Sasun I went to a parochial school (all run by nuns!) k-2nd! and, it really didn't matter to me what God was or wasn't??? I didn't even know at that age that there was God! I thought it was something adults told kids to make them behave ...only later as I found out that PEACE is missing in my life and searched without, then within...only to find out that it is not about society 'trying to make you act virtuous and be good,' rather, it's something that lives inside of you!! Religion and faith do not require a medium! such as organized religion with churches, priests, and popes!!! Church lives inside my heart But, it's nice to have an actual building you can go to and pray if you'd like...and more importantly, the majority of the people NEED the structure that organized religion offers...because of lack of discipline and faith in themselves? I really am not sure...but, that's like saying the sick do not need hospitals...they might get better on their own...but, that extra help, that's what religion offers too...and ultimately the goal of organized religion is to make people realize that they themselves do NOT need the church, the priests...etc. The true mission of religion is (or at least should be!) to empower people and let them know that they THEMSELVES are the source of that empowerment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 quote: are you a priest by any chance? No, I'm not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Hmmmmmm. Then that would explain a lot about this power-crazy baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 btw, are you a thothist atheist or a theist athothist? [ January 20, 2003, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: axel ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Why is it that I cannot buy at their face value whatever Axel says...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 MJ, you accused me of being an ideologist but I've reread my posts and I see no trace of ideology. Or maybe is advocating armenian unity in the Faith an ideologically biased view? Then we must have had many ideologically biased people in our history. I guess you and THOTH look at our "primitive" ancestors with "horror and disbelief". What a shame to be armenian! But hopefully, the Thothist breed will take over, the empowered Man, the Promotheus of the third millenium, so profoundly superior to the rest of us... What about cloning yourselves (btw does thothism have any links with raelians?), this might fasten the process of "evolution", don't you think? You don't have any arguments so you try to discredit my position through personal attacks and other sophistic means... Do you really believe Armenians are that dumb? [ January 20, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: axel ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:You don't have any arguments so you try to discredit my position through personal attacks and other sophistic means... Do you really believe Armenians are that dumb?Axel, I am not trying to discredit you. You do it for yourself. Additionally, you are the one who has started to discredit others here. Also, I have not yet applied sophisticated means - I just have thrown out a couple of light comments and you already have become defensive. So, where is your Faith? I am just trying to say that your "Faith" comes across as corrupt with ideology and philosophy. If you want to talk philosophy, we can do that. If you want to talk literature, we can do that too. We can also talk ideology. But we would need to segregate them. But if you want to talk Faith, you should talk love. Love is the missing category in all your contemplation. That's why I don't believe you. It doesn't mean that I think you are dumb, nor an evil person (contrary to what you have implied in one of your posts earlier.) It means just that you have to clear your head and your heart to see things in more transparent ways. As to me bringing arguments, sorry, don't have any interest beyond what I have already said - too bored too argue. And by the way, more I spend time on the Internet, more I get impression that Armenians are indeed dumb - don't blame me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 axel - While socialism (?) and (OK) communisim may be ideologies that caold be described as Atheistic this is not necissarly so. And Nazism was certainly Christian based - though admidetly more in a cult fashion (but this is endemic to the Christian cult - offshoot cults...heresy abounds...etc). Anyways - Zionists for instance are socialists (and even could be acuratly described as communists - at least those who espouse the Kibbutz life - at the center of the Zionist ideal. Zionists are not Atheists. Socialism is too varied to be considered as with or without theistic views. Communism too - but OK - lets suppose you are refering to the Soviet Union (Lenin/Stalin) and China (Mao). I would argue that Christian belief was replaced by the personality cult - arguably a theistic perspective. And obviously their brands of communism are/wer abhorrent and anti-human. Like Hitler thses men and their philosophys and resulting actions and those of their "believers" are unique phenomenon. And even in fact if they were not believers in "God" and if their official policies espoused Atheism - they certainly all came out of the Christian/Western tradition and basically replaced one set of contrived beliefs with another. The list of atrocities commited in the name of religion (and Christianity in specific) is quite a long one. Some examples being the inquisition, persecution of jews in Spain, Hugonaughts in France, Crusades, and the invasion of the Americas and genocide of the indigenous peoples, the African slave trade...And of course in modern times we see the Israli/Jewish - Palestinian/Arab/Muslim dispute, Catholics versus Protestants in Northern Ireland...and religious intolerance in general... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 quote:But if you want to talk Faith, you should talk love. Love is the missing category in all your contemplationIf you do not see Love in my posts then you must be blind. I see a lot of bad faith in yours. quote:And Nazism was certainly Christian basedCertainly not. The nazi supremacist ideology has nothing to do with christianity. quote:Some examples being the inquisition, persecution of jews in Spain, Hugonaughts in France, Crusades, and the invasion of the Americas and genocide of the indigenous peoplesThese are all related to catholicism so this further supports my claims as to the Vatican being an earthly power... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 Axel, All I read in your previous note is pride. This is also why I don't believe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 quote:religion has been the cause of so many wars, deaths, persecutionsReligion was not the cause of wars, greed and the thirst of power have always been. Is greed advocated by religion? But in all times, the ignorance and blindness of some has been instrumentalized in order to fulfill earthly ambitions. At the expense of repeating myself, "the atheist ideologies of the twentieth century (socialism, communism, nazism) are the one that killed the most. [...] All the atrocities of the twentieth century were committed in the name of progress, freedom, democracy and other false gods and lies." Loreley, you should read history before making such statements, real history that is, not the one fabricated by american "history teachers" who ignore that Armenia was the first Nation to embrace Christianity and who would probably equate Vartan Mamikonian with a blood-thirsty Christian and take Ghengis Khan or Teymur Lang for pre-democratic leaders attempting to unify the human race... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote: Church lives inside my heart But, it's nice to have an actual building you can go to and pray if you'd like...and more importantly, the majority of the people NEED the structure that organized religion offers...because of lack of discipline and faith in themselves?People have different ways of being spiritual, it is like having the right tuning to communicate with the spiritual world. Some people are tuned to the church, some people are tuned to other things, some people are not tuned to anything. The most important thing is being tuned, IMHO. True religions complement each other but not contradict. However, the very fact of the existence of religion is due to human imperfection. Organized religions are bound to be imperfect, no matter how honest the intentions are behind. Hence all the problems and disbelief in institutional religions. Even then, a lot of people are satisfied with organized religions because that is what they are tuned to. I myself like to see perfection, but I can't see it in the church-institution. That's a turn off A priest with a belly is a turn off. Belly symbolizes all the vices of a typical priest. quote:Sasun/hyebruin - all this is very wel and nice (and I am thrilled that you are at least familiar with Daoism and some of its comcepts) - but I must say this has nothing to do with Christianity and an anthropomorphic, demanding "God" in any way. If somebody says that God is all demanding, that is wrong. In Christianity God is all giving. He gave His son the Christ as a sacrifice to save the humanity. Is it not enough not to consider God as not all demanding?Sure, God demands some things, such as believing in Him. We take everything as granted without realizing its source.All religions demand something for ones spiritual development. Discipline is always necessary. Even Dao/Tao demands a lot of things, such as "Act through nonaction", which is much more difficult than just act. Others require to silence the mind through meditation, or to pray, or to act selflessly, or other things. It is a matter of personal tuning which path to take or not to take at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel: quote:Originally posted by MJ:And Nazism was certainly Christian basedCertainly not. The nazi supremacist ideology has nothing to do with christianity.hmmmmm ... and all this time I was thinking that ANY religion, by definition, must consider itself superior to other religions and belief systems. Seems to me like at least Christians really got the "inherent superiority" part of nazism down to an art form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:And by the way, more I spend time on the Internet, more I get impression that Armenians are indeed dumb - don't blame me...I would hypothesize here that your narrow conclusion is a side-effect of your more biased sampling of the "people on the Internet" and the fact that you probably focus more closely on "Armenian" forums. If you frequented other forums, you would probably conclude that the "Humans are indeed dumb" is a more appropriate generalization. In that case, I'd strongly agree with you, even though your above statement follows directly from the more general case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Sip, My biased conclusion, as you frame it, is resulted from my conviction that we, Armenians, are an exclusive nation , we are the first Christian nation , and we represent the cradle of civilization (God have mercy on my ). Therefore, while the “Humans may be indeed dumb,” one can not expect the same from Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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