THOTH Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun: If somebody says that God is all demanding, that is wrong. In Christianity God is all giving. He gave His son the Christ as a sacrifice to save the humanity.To save humanity from what? What is the threat? Seems to me the threat is "gods" wrath - because we are not supplicating ourselves to him... I fail to understand this need to be "saved"... quote:Originally posted by Sasun: Is it not enough not to consider God as not all demanding?Sure, God demands some things, such as believing in Him.Why does "God" care so much if we believe in "him"? Does he own stakes in the concession stands? quote:Originally posted by Sasun:We take everything as granted without realizing its source. I agree. And I disagree. But it is just these sort of statements such as "mankind (or I) is/am not worthy" etc. I have a real problem with this. And I completely disagree concerning your attributed "source" for things. I just don't see it. And if I did - then it is all one big sham - and "God" is an evil trickster - a Loki - etc quote:Originally posted by Sasun:All religions demand something for ones spiritual development. Discipline is always necessary. Even Dao/Tao demands a lot of things, such as "Act through nonaction", which is much more difficult than just act. Others require to silence the mind through meditation, or to pray, or to act selflessly, or other things. It is a matter of personal tuning which path to take or not to take at all. Yes - true. But the disciplin of the Dao is internal. It is done for oneself and the good of the whole - truly noble goals. It requires no supposition of an external demanding source. None of the things requires an external, arrogant, alien being demanding love and supplication. And just thingk - what if "God" really were Allah? Even worse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:And just thingk - what if "God" really were Allah? Even worse...Then they'd REALLY need to be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Sip, My biased conclusion, as you frame it, is resulted from my conviction that we, Armenians, are an exclusive nation , we are the first Christian nation , and we represent the cradle of civilization (God have mercy on my ). Therefore, while the “Humans may be indeed dumb,” one can not expect the same from Armenians. MJ I think that this trend is not only present in Armenians but in every single nation. the conviction of superiority has a range in exclusivity colors which paints a hue on the character of a nation. A Greek yells we got Homers and Acropols, Italian yells we got Rome, Venetia and Michelangelos, Jew thinks he is the chosen one, Germans proud of their Bethovens,Durers, French ahh the French, and ohh! ohh the British…and Arabs, and Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Africans, Spanish, Russians, Portuguese, Dutch. Even America with only 200-year history has developed a distinct sense of superiority. Yes Christianity has influenced Armenia in many ways good and bad becoming part of our culture yet the repetition of “we are first Christians” shows Armenia in one dimension. What about our Architecture, Art, Literature, Music and great achievements of science, technology, generals, oil tycoons, businessmen and philanthropists and so on. Nations arise then they fall...We cannot level ourselves inclusively good and great this is untrue, look at Armenia now if we are so great how come no one can take care of what little is left of Armenia. Certainly there are many Armenian noses growing with unstoppable speeds towards the sky and with faster speed levels in Diaspora. This nasal growth was visible in many Armenians in Armenia but not any more. When a person has to work 16 hours a day selling lemons in shuka to make 50 drums (a dollar?) he does not care about Armenian pride. Then again still many who reminisce with beating waters because of nothing else is left. There is a difference between recognizing culture, history and blind pride for national preservation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 i thank god for giving humans powerful brains, which can invent such complex things as is religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 We're still on this topic? Must be even more exciting than I thought! ...one thing to note: all this external/internal talk (think it was Thoth)...well, it's all the same thing...again! God/Tao is everywhere!!! but because right now we're on a physical plane, we think there's a 'us' or 'me' and there's a 'them' (or the 'big bad God' as some would like to call it!)...that's where the illusion lies...we're all the same on a human/energy level... We are limited by our physical bodies and think that all that can be seen or experienced lies in the flesh...well, if this were all there was to reality...that there was nothing beyond the physical realm, then how does one explain (for example) the feelings that arise from a kiss, from lovemaking,...etc. Oh, here it comes: I believe making love is a way to get closer to God BY GETTING AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE WITH ANOTHER HUMAN...(of course this is for those who differentiate between sex & love!)God is within and without...here, there, everywhere,... ever wonder why the majority of songs and poems are about love? it is a longing for something within...love/God is not out there, but inside in each soul~~~ the soul's job is to try to get rid of all the 'dirt' and 'fog' that smears the outside of the soul and causes confusion...and bring out the brilliant shining of the soul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:I believe making love is a way to get closer to God ...So that's where GOD's been hiding all the time. Sorry, took it out of context but I couldn't resist. But I think all those feelings that "arise" out of kisses and making love can easily be explained physically with all the hormones and stuff that get released in our brains. Otherwise, I can't explain how kissing grandma doesn't produce the same "close to god" effect as kissing Catherine Bell for example. I don't even want to think about the "love making" part (well, except maybe with Bell). PS MJ: got ya. I see what you meant now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 THOTH, Dao/Tao directly acknowledges God. quote:The Way is empty,yet never refills with use;Bottomless it is,like the forefather of the myriad creatures.It files away sharp points,unravels tangles,diffuses light,mingles with the dust.Submerged it lies,seeming barely to subsist.I know not whose child it is, only that it resembles the predecessor of God "Tao/Dao" is translated as "the Way". While it is not straightforward what the last line means, but IMHO it means that the Way is the way to God. First you practice the Way to be the predecessor, then you become God, or in other words become one with God. This passage (and many other passages) mention the "forefather of the myriad creatures". I think it means God or the creater, source of all, whatever you could name it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 sorry - double post...somehow.... [ January 21, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 564312 - agreed - very good post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Sasun - Obviously some (likely Christian) ***o has no understanding of the Dao and is passing himself off as some venerable master. Nowhere have I ever seen any reference to "God" in any accepted Daoist work (but whoi is to say with these translations - I don't buy it though - it doesn't fit - not at all). This "God" concept is antithises to Dao. It cannot be. It is Christianity that preaches seperation between man and "God" - there is no such thing in the Dao - nor is there any "God" to be defined - there is no concept of "creator". However there are many neo-daoist offshoots (human nature...)that try to complicate what really is pretty basic - I don't buy any of it (well - the hedonstic schools have some things going for them certainly). But in general there is no need for complications - for bringing in personalites & such. And no - Daoism is not some bridge to Christianity - and even such things as the 10 comandments go against the Daoist approach. It would be like saying that Martin Luther King wanted the Black man to be free so that he could own his own slaves - - it is not possible for Christianity to "fit" into a proper Daoist belief - it is much to rules oriented to begin with and much to contrived. And again - in no way can the Daoist thinking be (accuratly) used to support "God" belief... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 THOTH, I quoted from the very book of Tao Te Ching, believed to be written by Lao Tzu. This is the oldest version of the book found to date, translated by Victor H. Mair. It explicitly uses the word "God", read yourself. Of course, that doesn't fit your belief system, so you will say that it is not an "acceptable" work. I never said that there is a link to Christianity, neither I said that Christianity and Tao are the same. There are many common things, that's what I said. I mentioned one common thing. Here is more, "Repay resentment by integrity", "Seek and thou shalt receive;Sin and thou shalt be forgiven". Do you want me to continue? Tao is unique, but if you have an open mind you will see many common things with other religious teachings. quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Sasun: If somebody says that God is all demanding, that is wrong. In Christianity God is all giving. He gave His son the Christ as a sacrifice to save the humanity.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To save humanity from what? What is the threat? Seems to me the threat is "gods" wrath - because we are not supplicating ourselves to him... I fail to understand this need to be "saved"... To save humanity from its ignorance and vices, from disbelief, from self-destruction. quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Sasun: Is it not enough not to consider God as not all demanding?Sure, God demands some things, such as believing in Him.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why does "God" care so much if we believe in "him"? Does he own stakes in the concession stands? Why does a parent want to be recognized as parent by the child? For the same reason, not to recognize and believe in God is like living the life of an orphan. quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Sasun:We take everything as granted without realizing its source. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree. And I disagree. But it is just these sort of statements such as "mankind (or I) is/am not worthy" etc. I have a real problem with this. And I completely disagree concerning your attributed "source" for things. I just don't see it. And if I did - then it is all one big sham - and "God" is an evil trickster - a Loki - etc Mankind is not worthy for what? And who is saying this? It is nonsense, certainly doesn't belong to Christianity. Doesn't Jesus promise the Kingdom of Heaven? Who who is not worthy, I don't understand. quote:quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Sasun:All religions demand something for ones spiritual development. Discipline is always necessary. Even Dao/Tao demands a lot of things, such as "Act through nonaction", which is much more difficult than just act. Others require to silence the mind through meditation, or to pray, or to act selflessly, or other things. It is a matter of personal tuning which path to take or not to take at all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes - true. But the disciplin of the Dao is internal. It is done for oneself and the good of the whole - truly noble goals. It requires no supposition of an external demanding source. None of the things requires an external, arrogant, alien being demanding love and supplication. And just thingk - what if "God" really were Allah? Even worse... This is a totally twisted perception of God. God is neither alien nor arrogant. God is all love and compassion. He doesn't forcefully demand anything. To say that loving your enemy is the right thing to do, for example, is not a demand but rather a moral guideline. I am not sure what exactly is meant by "Allah", I am not very familiar with Islam. A quote from Sri Chinmoy: quote:Man's eternal question is:"Who is God?"God's immediate answer is:"My child, who else is God,If not you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Sip, I think Hyebruin means love as the emotion, not the sexual part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun:Sip, I think Hyebruin means love as the emotion, not the sexual part The "making love" that she is referring to, definitely has a sexual connotation to it. So I was trying to point out, in my own rediculous way, that I think she was in fact referring to "sexual love" and "being closer to God", which is a concept I disagree with. Sexual love is sexual love and doesn't have much to do with the concept of God. I am just trying to make some sense out of all these mumble jumble of oceans, dropplets, god everywhere, sex and love, all powerful being, giving a child to achieve a purpose, etc etc etc that at times seem overly "dramatic", highly confused, and often contradictory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by Sasun:Sip, I think Hyebruin means love as the emotion, not the sexual part The "making love" that she is referring to, definitely has a sexual connotation to it. So I was trying to point out, in my own rediculous way, that I think she was in fact referring to "sexual love" and "being closer to God", which is a concept I disagree with. Sexual love is sexual love and doesn't have much to do with the concept of God. I am just trying to make some sense out of all these mumble jumble of oceans, dropplets, god everywhere, sex and love, all powerful being, giving a child to achieve a purpose, etc etc etc that at times seem overly "dramatic", highly confused, and often contradictory.I see. I think that making love and feeling love can coexist, although Plutonic love is more pure. On the other hand, even if not making love, there is always desire, which is not much different than the act of making love. Yeah, all these postings can hardly be useful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 AAAhhh, it's too bad we don't have more women in here who would help me out with this one!!! While 'making love' does NOT have sexual connotations to it...I AM referring to IT!...it certainly is not the only way to get closer to God...but it is a most profoundly strong way to do so! We can feel and know God in all things that we do...good and bad...hopefully we'll learn from the bad and won't repeat it! But, the making love category is a special one...because life itself is created and with that comes the invitation of a timeless soul into human form...hopefully to bring more light, love and kindness into the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 564312, I, basically, agree with everything you said above. Don't have much to add. I just like laughing at ourselves. But laughing at others is not nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Hyebruin, that reminds me a certain religious path that concentrates on the sexual vital, or something like that. I also read that this is a very dangerous path compared to others. If not done right one can easily ruin his/her life. I guess a woman would understand better what kind of closeness you experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:I believe making love is a way to get closer to God ...So that's where GOD's been hiding all the time.i'm one hopeless unbeliever. any girl wants to volenteer to help me find the god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hyebruin:AAAhhh, it's too bad we don't have more women in here who would help me out with this one!!! While 'making love' does NOT have sexual connotations to it...I AM referring to IT!...it certainly is not the only way to get closer to God...but it is a most profoundly strong way to do so! We can feel and know God in all things that we do...good and bad...hopefully we'll learn from the bad and won't repeat it! But, the making love category is a special one...because life itself is created and with that comes the invitation of a timeless soul into human form...hopefully to bring more light, love and kindness into the world Yes Hyebruin Women do feel certain spiritual connection, it’s more like tenderness, maternal, conceiving, beginning of life and this instinct brings closeness with God. But I am sure this is not felt all the time. Humans **** more like wild animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Thanks MJ and Thothy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Harut:i'm one hopeless unbeliever. any girl wants to volenteer to help me find the god?Hagarag jan, can you please volunteer and make Harut a believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Azat: quote:Originally posted by Harut:i'm one hopeless unbeliever. any girl wants to volenteer to help me find the god?Hagarag jan, can you please volunteer and make Harut a believer. I would. But unfortunately I'm not a cradle-snatcher (kidding, kidding) 564312, Happy Birthday indeed! [ January 22, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: nairi ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 shnhakal..shnhakal em nairi jan.i am turning 103 years old by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Just something I came accross - worth a look Religion is the Cause of Violence (1999)by William Edelen I have often wondered if the lunatics of the Republican 'God Squad' know how much Hitler would have loved them. That idiot from Idaho, Republican Helen Chenoweth wanted us to have a national day of "fasting and humiliation before God." This was a follow up to her extended period of adultery. George W. Bush said a few years ago that "people who do not accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven." So much for the Jews and Buddhists and all U.S. citizens not Christian. And he wants to be the President. It is religion that, historically, has always produced violence. From Moses to the Crusades, Henry VIII, Salem, Hitler, Kosovo. Today, in our own time, it is those countries without religion that are the LEAST vilolent. America is the most 'religious' of the world's industrialized nations, and yet is the most violent nation in the world. Pat Robertson recently said this: "take the Holy Bible from people and they will run amok." The monumental stupidity of this man is scary. Japan, without the bible, but with Buddhism has less violent crimes than any other nation in the world. It seems that we should be hanging Buddhist teachings in our public schools. The murder rate here in America is six times higher than Britain, seven times higher than France, five times more than Sweden and Australia. Louisiana has the highest church attendance rate in America. It also has twice the national average for murders. The same with God Squad Tom DeLay's bible toting state of Texas. Violence and biblical religion go hand in hand and yet, our Republican leaders want more of it. Their language would make Hitler smile. Hitler would love their social agenda. Hitler had religion and wanted more of it for Germany. He was a Roman Catholic and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in that church. He was steeped in its liturgy. Hatred of the Jews was promoted in Germany by Catholics and Lutherans. In his book MEIN KAMPF Hitler wrote: "I am completely convinced that I am acting as the agent of God. I am now a Catholic and will always remain so." Hitler never left the church and the church never left him. Great books were banned by the church but MEIN KAMPF was never banned. Hitler was never excommunicated. Under Hitler, 'Jesus' prayers became mandatory in all schools. Abortion was a crime. Homosexuality was criminalized. Hitler put into practice everything our Republican leaders are now pushing for America. Biblical religion and violence go hand in hand. They always have, from Moses to Kosovo to America's bible belt. If you want an education, read THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH, the pulitzer prize winning book by William Shirer. And then: Wake Up! The time is short...... The hour is late...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 And perhaps this will answer some questons: On Freethinking http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/freethinker.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.