Get over it, this ain't no 1915 it's 2001

[Garo]

The text below has been moved here from our guestbook

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posted August 31, 2001 21:07 PT

susan

Email: mommylovesusan@hotmail.com

 

I'm sick and tired of your bad propaganda about my beloved country Turkey..Get over it, this ain't no 1915 it's 2001... Where have you been? You people were'nt even alive when this war happened and all you know is the poison you have been fed by your great grandparents to hate the people and the country that you have never been given a chance to get to know,all you wanna

do is spread the HATE!

Even jews learned to love Germans and they learned to live with them side by side..I have no problem with Armenians nor greeks,we all share same interests and customs what is the problem that you can't solve ? We even eat the same food for GOD sakes..Why can't we get along ? Why so much Hate? The time has past and things are diffrent now, we are more modern and educated and beyond the primitive way of thinking..

Maybe your parents realized what a GREAT country they have lost to live in and this is their way to get back to us TURKS by misleading their innocent kids telling them a their version of the story not the TRUTH!

Whatever truth may be it still hurts,people died ,kids died,women died and i feel bad for all losses not just for you , but for whole world..

Let's stop this insanity let's make a peace ..I'm hurting by the comments and i'm sure your kids not happy seeing negative propaganda about your people ok?

I miss Turkey,people,muzik,and the great food where i grew up to love everything about TURKEY!!

Look i care less what happened back in 1915 even 1960..I wanna move on to future where we all humans gather and reunite..I want our kids to grow up in a healthy and happy world..I'm tired of hating..I want peace..No more wars..No more starvation..No more murders.no more drugs..Please have a open mind and compassion in your hearts,i know we are all capable of loving and hating but why not live with Peace?

I have been living In USA for last 15 years (not by choice) and miss Turkey everyday, iT's the BEST country n the world no matter how you look at it..regardless of economy I love the life that i had in Turkey back when i was a kid..I wished i never grew up and left that clossness i felt with my Turkish family and relatives..

Your comments welcome as long as not vicious and political..GOD Bless all of you!

Allah'a emanet olun!

 

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Turk hater

posted September 1, 2001 13:02 PT

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To Susan:

Germans apologize to the Jews. Turks did not. Moreover, they continue their denial policies. Unfortunately, 90f the turks support their government toward the denial of the ARmenian genocide.

We will continue our struggle for justice until the time when turks will come to their knees and will beg for forgiveness!

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susan

Email: momylovesTurkey@hotmail.com

posted September 2, 2001 13:03 PT

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Shame,Shame on you for your comments!

Germans actions were well proven and documented in history for their brutal torture and murder on jews ..There is no proof of Turk's doing what you claim, besides Hitler sent Those people to concentration camps and hot burning owens, what worst can it be than that??

Now that was a genocide !apolgy or not both nations has moved on to better things in life and they know there is no use for continue to HATE and remembering the pain they have suffered ,so what is your gain in this hatery propagonda other than waste of time and energy ? what a SHame !!

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For Susan

posted September 2, 2001 16:00 PT

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What the hell are you doig here you dumb child? You know what, the Armenians can love one another but its kind of hard to love and forgive the turks. Ur ppl. We will never give up the fight. And trust me there is no shame in that. there is shame for your *** to be here though. your giving examples about the germens and the jews, fin ill give you one too! Hitler once said that,If the people dont remember the genocide of the ARMENIANS, they sure wont remeber this one.

HUH?? what does your *** have to say no? Get out of here, you waste for socitey. ARMENIANS ARE HERE TO STAY>>AND AS GOD AS OUR WITNESS WE WILL HAVE JUSTICE.

Just do everyone here and yourself a favour and step out of our god damn way. Something your ppl never learned to do.

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FOR SUSAN

posted September 2, 2001 19:56 PT

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Before saying that there's no proof of the ARmenian Genocide, you should do some research on how many countries have the facts & teh documents in their national archives. If you're so interested in it, you can find some of them on the web. You know what, you have no right to come here & tell us that we should forget what happened to us & then say shame on us. Shame on us for not forgetting what happened to us 86 years ago? Shame on us that we're trying to get some justice? Shame on us for not forgetting that some of our great grandparents & even grandparents were cut in pieces by the Turkish government? No honey, shame on your nation that to this day you still deny what you did to us & call us liers. How do u think other governments recognize the genocide? We just ask them & they recognize it? Don't you think we prove them somehow what happened to us? My great grandfather was cut into 4 pieces, so don't you dare to tell me to forget something like that & that i should be ashamed. How many Jews do you see today who have forgetten their Holocaust? You say that they have moved on with their lives, & what makes you think that we haven't? Commemorating our bigest sorrow on april 24th every year & spending a day just remembering what happened to our loved ones means that we haven't moced on with our lives? What kind of a logic is that? Believe me we have moved on with our lives. Nothing can stop us from feeling happy & joy for being alive today. You said that there's no proof that there was a genocide, but have u ever seen the pictures, the films that were shot during that time? Have you ever read at least one eye witness account from not only from Armenians but there were thousands of foreign people from all over the world, who wrote a lot of articles on what the turks were doing to the ARmenians.

Have you ever checked out at least one archive of the US newspapers & did see how many articles LA Times, NY Times, Washington Post & Boston Globe published on what was happening in 1915. Well, i'm sure you haven't since you said that there is not proof, but just know that for 60 years we have worked on recognition of the genocide & we haven't failed ever since, & one day we are going to get an answers for 1.5 million innocent lives.

Do us favor stop writing your Anti-Armenian comments in here, it's guest book, not a political forum. Do you have any idea what your government is doing to deny the genocide? Don't you dare to accuse us of anything, got it?

IF there was no proof of the genocide, you government wouldn't had opened the Turkish archives about 4 months ago & find adocument which stated that there was a massacre of the Armenians but the numbers were changed, but at least the document prooved that there was a massacre. Follow the news & you'll get the picture. If there was no proof then the genocide would not have been proven by most of the scholars & historians all over the world today & it wouldn't have even been published in a historical books. Good luck with the denial, but can't you see that it isn't working?

[dragon]

Susan janik,

Kna kich mu jash yepel sorvir

Hedo yegur polotics khosir

[gamavor]

There was a song from the near past "Who the .... is Susan?"

 

PS: Susan is the westernized version of "Aishe" or "Susanmaaane" or "Susangionsuratme", or "Susansictirme"!

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: gamavor ]

[aurguplu]

dear susan

 

i am a felloe turk who has been visiting this forum and contributing to various discussions for some time now. i have read your entry and the replies to it, and felt compelled to reply.

 

first a few things about myself that i consider relevant: i am a graduate of oxford university, england, with an m.a. in oriental studies, which includes turkish and arabic. history was also part of my studies. i do not add this to boast or anything but to show that i am capable of basing my assertions on documented facts.

 

now the story:

 

the ottoman sources indicate the presence of about 1,295,000 armenians on ottoman soil on the eve of world war one. almost all of the land where ottoman armenians lived is now part of the turkish republic. the ottoman population of the area corresponding to present-day turkey supported a population of about 15 million people (these figures are known not to be very accurate due to poor census taking practices). so the armenian population of turkey then constituted about 8-9% of the total population, based on official ottoman sources.

 

at the first census taken in the republican era in 1927, the population had dropped to something like 12-13 million, with barely 200,000-300,000 armenians in the whole of the country. today in turkey there are at best 50,000-65,000 christian armenians (muslim armenians are another issue that i shall not venture here not to stray from the topic). this means that 1) after ww1, some 80% of the armenian population was absent from turkey, and 2) the armenian population existing in turkey today (50,000-65,000) is barely 5% of what it once was.

 

this fact, so far entirely derived from published official ottoman and republican turkish sources, requires explanation: what happened to the 95%, or at least 80% of the armenian population after 1914?

 

now some 400,000-600,000 anatolian armenians settled in other countries after ww1, from whom present-day french, american, australian etc. armenian communities mostly derive.

 

1,295,000-(600,000+300,000)= 395,000. this simple equation gives you the minimum number of the armenians in turkey then minus the maximum number of armenians living in turkey in 1927. 395,000 people AT LEAST are missing.

 

these are the dead. those who were killed by arms, left to die in deserts, mountains, drowned at the black sea and lake van and along the euphrates, in short, made dead in ways that would make the blood of any human being, who calls himself human, clot.

 

this horrible fact was recognised at the time it was taking place, not only by turkey's then enemies (the allies of ww1), but also by her allies the germans, and most tellingly, by many conscientous turks. ottoman printed matter from the period and republican turkish literature alluding to the world war and the independence struggle gives ample references to the events. this fact is usually overlooked by most educated turks today since they cannot read the ottoman script in which they were written, or are not fully in command of the language of the 1920s and 1930s due to the linguistic revolution (dil devrimi) which made sure that you could not understand your father's school books. that was the break with the past.

 

the founder of our republic, ataturk, had not taken part in these atrocities (he was busy fighting the british at gallipoli then), but was compelled to enlist a number of men in the independence war (istiklal harbi) who were widely suspected to have taken part in the crimes. again, references to them can be found in the works of respectable turkish authors from the period which you can pick up at any bookstore in turkey. this was one of the main reasons why we coud not talk about the fate of the armenians in turkey: some local heroes of the independence war had the blood of innocent armenians on their hands, and they were alive and well well into the 1950s.

 

a most unspeakable crime was committed in our name in 1915. the armenian community of turkey was deliberately destroyed to "clean" turkey of non-turkish "elements". true, there were armenians - and not a few of them - who betrayed the ottoman empire during ww1 by siding with the enemy, fighting in its ranks, killing innocent civilians as well as soldiers and government officials, and the ottoman empire was right to punish them the way such people were punished in every state of that era. but the ottoman empire - or rather, an inner, secret clique within the committee of union and progress (ittihat ve terakki) which was then ruling the empire - took the decision to exterminate innocent civilians together with the guilty ones without consulting the sultan, who was just a figurehead by then, or even other members of the committee of union and progress, and carried out that decision partly using the army, which was in their control, but also by releasing convicts from prisons and placing them under arms and sending them into anatolia to round up armenians and butcher them. this is also documented in turkish sources.

 

many of these criminals were sentenced to death by the ottoman court-martial, and many of these sentences were carried out, but some notorious figures escaped, notably talat and enver *****s, who masterminded the whole thing. they were later killed by armenians in acts of revenge.

 

they did not only kill the armenians: they also killed many assyrian christians (süryanis), who had not taken part in any violent effort to destroy the empire, and, more tellingly, many turks and kurds who had tried to defend the armenians. in anatolia today you still can hear stories of how these butchers massacred armenians at night around yozgat, tokat, kastamonu, kocaeli, the taurus mountain range, and did not stop for a moment to shoot at the muslim turks and kurds who either refused to comply with the orders to hand them over, or who actively defended them against the murderers. later on, these massacres of turks were presented as "armenian massacres of the turks" (not that armenians did not massacre turks, they sure did, but they were not alone).

 

all this happened in broad daylight and was covered by the world press of the time. not only by the enemy press, but also by the german press, for instance. the whole thing can be likened to the breakup of former yugoslavia and the ensuing bloodbath (or vice versa). we acted like the serbians, and the armenians suffered like the bosnians. and then we buried it under the carpet for over fifty years, until the issue resurfaced with the armenian assasinations (asala) in the 1970s.

 

now this has been overly long and i have to conclude: why do the armenians still pursue this? in my opinion, the answer is very simple: their ancestors were killed by some of our ancestors, and we neither fully recognised nor apoligised for, this sad fact. it is my opinion - and i hope not mine alone, that you don't have to have blood on your hands to be tainted with a crime. to stand by and do nothing while it takes place, or worse still, to deny that it ever took place, is a k,ind of participating in the crime itself.

 

we as a nation have the mentality of a small anatolian village in this matter: the local strongman (i mean the ağa) kills someone in the middle of the village with his men, the whole village sees it, but does nothing, and does not even talk about it after the crime. yaers later, when a relative of the victim seeks justice, the whole village denies that the crime occurred in the first place because 1) they still fear the ağa, and 2) deep down they feel the shame and sense of guilt in what they - rightly - consider their tacit complicity in the crime.

 

for me, a human being before all else, this is an issue of justice: wrong has been done, the damage to the victim and his relatives is irreparable, and the relatives are tormented even more to this day because they crime itself is not even admitted.

 

all nations have such dark pages in their history, and we are no exception. and if we do not accept this, we run the risk of repeating it. we have no such right.

 

we are a great nation, and great nations make great mistakes. the mature ones can see the mistakes for what they are, own up to them, condemn them, make reparations for them, and take the necessary precautions to make sure that they don't repeat them.

 

remember: experience is not what you have gone through. experience is what you do with what you have gone through.

 

regards,

[MJ]

Well, Ali... What can I say other than I commend you for the spirit of your reply, though may perhaps be ready to question some numbers. But, even with that, I understand your premise and commend your professionalism in presenting them. This is a subject that we have attempted to discuss in the past, but have failed for obvious reasons. One cannot come up with accurate estimates of the numbers of the victims of the Genocide at this stage without direct, focused and multilateral investigation of the issue.

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

i know about the numbers. the reason i posted them was that these were the numbers that any turkish citizen could actually get to by using authentic (not secondary, for god's sake) contemporary turkish (as opposed to "enemy") sources of the period.

 

you see, the genocide is a fact, and as we say in turkish, you cannot cover the sun with mud. well, you cannot cover the sun, but you can cover your eyes with mud. and the "mud" in this case is the host of extremist publications that abound both on the "armenian" and "turkish" sides of the divide. most people have access to only them not becuse they want to evade the truth, but simply because that huge body of evidence, which - believe it or not - actually floats freely in all the major libraries, bookstores etc., is either not presented in an accessible format (i mean for instance i am not aware of any "list" that has been published of primary turkish sources relating to the matter, i am sure it exists in some obscure publication, but is not around for the interested layman to consult), or has not been rendered accessible by transliteration and translation into new turkish (you cannot imagine what room the demagogues in our country have thanks to the "language revolution" that ataturk carried out: anyone born after the fifties can simply not understand a verbose ottoman document from the last decades of the empire, or even the 1910s-1920s, and anyone who is not ancient today is sure not to have received the education to read the ottoman script).

 

 

also please understand that a turk - or anybody facing such a horror, in fact - would find it less difficult and less distasteful to encounter the reality from sources that he/she is least likely to distrust. now neither the ottomans nor the republican turks had no interest whatsoever in putting together numbers that showed the absence of AT LEAST 395,000 armenians from the face of the earth. so this can safely be regarded by any turk as the minimum number of the dead. it is from our own sources.

 

i did not want to get into what i call "genocide accounting", i.e. the row about the exact numbers. first, i think it is impossible to make an accurate estimate of the dead in such issues, especially given the well-known (and well-disguised) fact that a good number of armenians hastily converted to islam just before, during, and after the genocide, and secondly (and this is more important to me) would it not be a genocide if, say, only 50,000, or 5,000 or even 500 people were killed? i believe this genocide accounting misses the essential point of the criminal nature of the event, and is only fit for those who place the perceived potential financial gain from expected genocide reparations above the moral questions the issue raises.

 

 

i felt compelled to point out to this lady - and any other turk who visits the forum - that 1) we are a nation deliberately severed from our past so that we know as little about it as possible, and 2) we, the generations born after the genocide, though not guilty of that particular crime itself, inadvertently take over part of the blame for denying it, or defending it.

 

we as a nation are not the demons that many people portray us as so frequently, but we did have demons amongst our numbers, and were led to crimes by them. it is high time that we learned that we shouldn't stick to past mistaken positions simply because our ancestors had done so.

 

regards & good night (it's late over here)

 

p.s.: sorry for my typing, i'm a bit tired. cheers.

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

 

All is fine. I understood your motivations precisely. Just thank you for your posting.

 

Have a good night.

[timucin]

Nice presentation, but if I am not mistaken nobody in Turkey really denies what you have written here Ali. What is denied in Turkey is the interpretation that says this whole thing was a genocide. Interestingly enough,I think, again if I am not mistaken, you do not use the word genocide in your presentation, either. So, I am left wondering where is the difference between your and the official Turkish appraoches, since they also do not deny that Armenians were killed. Perhaps, you are a step ahead of them by recognizing implicitly,even explicitly at some sections, that they were not killed because they attacked first, but because some groups thought that they had to go in order for some plans to work out.

 

I am not sure things were even as simple as seeing the whole thing as resulting from Turkish nationalism alone, but I will not get into this right now. There is also the issue that what if your assumption that mostly an apology based on sincere recognition of what happened could be enough to solve the problem, or at least to start the reaction that will result in resolving the whole issue, is simply wrong. I know some 'nice' Armenians keep repeating that this is the case, but there is also the other group, the nationalistic bunch.

 

Whatever, I do not want to cause much headache here. I just wanted to bring up what I believed to be some contradictions in your post. For example, the assumption that Ataturk had nothing to do with the whole thing because he was in Canakkale fighting the enemy is another problem. He might not have had anything to with the whole thing physically, but, using your own argument, he was as guilty as, and perphaps, because of his position, even guiltier than, the avearage citizen, since he knew about the whole thing and did not take any action, although he was in the position to do so. Since he was one of the 'aga's in this period, should I assume that you also may be suffering from the 'small Anatolian village mentality'.

 

I guess I will stop here. I did not say much about my own appraoch, but it is basically that I see the age and the idea of nationalism as the sole responsible party for what happened. I do not appraoch it as 'great nations make great mistakes'. It was not an accident; it was bound to happen eventually either in Anatolia or somewhere else.

 

Well, I got to go now.

 

t.

[dragon]

MY ARMENIAN FRIEND FROM YEREVAN

by YUKSEL SOYLEMEZ

 

Turkish Daily News

September 3, 2001

 

The date was July 9, 2001. I received an e-mail from Yerevan, Armenia. It was signed by one Gevorg Torosyan. It was a response

to my article "Milosevich as Hitler" in the Turkish Daily News.

This is what he said in his first letter:

 

"To impress deeper the imagination of readers of Turkish Daily News, I would suggest that you also compare the leaders of Young Turks with Milosevich and Hitler. At least the Young Turks were the first who started the elimination of a whole nation in the last century (by the way contrary to the Jewish and Bosnian cases they eliminated a nation in its homeland)."

 

It was signed Gevorg, a Ph.D. student from Armenia. As a footnote he also added "... I have a lot of Turkish friends, I do not think that this generation of Turks has blood on its hands. But I can never understand why the present Turkish government is so stupid (I am sorry I cannot find any other word) that it protects the actions of those criminals, even in the opinion of Ataturk."

 

Reply to Torosyan:

 

"Thank you for reading my column in the TDN, in Yerevan. Please keep in touch with TDN, as I intend to write soon with some

constructive ideas on the future of Armenia-Turkish relations and on the "Commission of Reconciliation" which I fully support. I

also have Armenian friends like my grandfathers and my father. "Think positively.

 

"Best wishes for your Ph.D. degree."

 

Turks and Armenians: Friends and foes

 

My article was published in the TDN opinion column. I was expecting Torosyan's comments and they were not too late in arriving. In this second correspondence I thought Torosyan's tone was softer and kinder even in his critical remarks -- I would even

say friendly. This is the reason why I ventured to use the title: My friend in Yerevan, Torosyan.

 

This is the full text of Torosyan's second letter from Yerevan through e-mail:

 

"I hope you remember the Ph.D. student from Armenia who has recently contacted you.

 

"I have read your article with great interest. I agree with your main opinion that our nations need reconciliation. But I can say that after your message to me I was really waiting for a more objective article written by you. Here are just some notes from reading your article."

 

Torosyan's views

 

"1. Even though there were a lot of Armenians who made friendships with Turks, and a lot of Armenians who had high positions in theOttoman Empire it doesn't mean that the Armenian nation didn't wish

to live in independence. An example is Chechnya, where people really wish to live independently, though Chechens get high

positions in Russia (e.g. Ruslan Khasbulatov, former speaker of the Russian Parliament was Chechen)."

 

Abdulhamit

 

"2. Sultan Abdulhamit massacred 100,000-150,000 Armenians; this is the reason why he was not the beloved sultan of Armenians. This was the reason of the 'Armenian question' in the 19th century."

 

On history

 

"3. For the next sentence if you wish to know how Armenians willreact, I will just suggest that you change the word 'Armenian' with'Jewish' and 'Turkish' with 'German' and read to any Jewish person.

'What happened in 1915 under terrible war conditions and in the last hours of the empire, is a truly tragic story in our common

history, which fatally cuts and badly hurts both ways. There must be a reconciliation, as Turks and Armenians cannot continue to live in the past. The Armenians slain and the Turks killed must be left alone for the reverence of their misfortune as no amount of

vindictiveness or sense of vengeance will bring them back. Who killed whom and how many is a redundant question, this tragedy was not a numbers game.' Nevertheless, I still hope that Turkish society in 30-50 years would never use such ideas talking about Armenians. Probably then half of the articles in the TDN wouldn'tbe about the entrance of Turkey to the European Union."

 

French act

 

"4. An 'act' to hurt and not to heal. Because we are an injured nation, Armenians have not injured others. Let the Armenians

decide if the French decision hurt or healed us more."

 

Armenian Research Institute

 

"5. Establishing an 'Institute for Armenian Research' will never work objectively until an 'Institute for Turkish Research' would be

established. The main work of this institute should be research towards finding out: Why the modern Turkish nation, which has more genes in its blood from all its neighboring nations than genes from the old Turkic nation, does not have good relations with any of its neighbors? Why it is impossible for Turkish minds to admit the

fault of their country? Why has 70-80 years of attempts to become closer to the European culture not succeeded completely? Etc."

 

Historians

 

"6. 'In my non-historian view and at the expense of being unjust and unfair to historians, history is so important for the future that it cannot be entrusted to historians alone.' Great idea which I hope will be respected by Turkish authorities."

 

Great ideas

 

"7. 'I suggested TV-crew exchanges between the two countries as frequently as possible so that the two peoples can get to know each

other better after a lapse of many decades.' Great Idea. Last year I participated on my own initiative in a Summer Student Project at Sabanci University, and from my own experience I can say how important are such contacts. The Turkish side should take more initiatives in this case ..."

 

A Mistake

 

"8. There is a mistake made (by a translator) in the article, because 'Armenian Revolutionary Federation' is just a translation of the 'Armenian Dashnak Party,' not the names of two parties."

 

Hated members

 

"9. 'Dialogue is a must.' Yes, but not with the present members of the commission. Two of the commission members, Alexander

Arzoumanian and David Hovhanissian, are from Levon Ter-Petrosyan's party, which has the support of 1-2 percent of the Armenian

population and is hated (this is the only word that can be used in this case) by at least 80-85 percent of the population. The people who invited these two to be on the commission were either living very far from Armenia or they did it intentionally to accuse Armenian society afterwards of not wishing to speak with the Turks.

If the members of the commission were composed of people who are respected in Armenia, there would never be any negative reaction from any Armenian party (even the Dashnaks)."

 

I did not meet personally

 

"10. Did you really meet Kevorg Torosyan from Connecticut?. It is

funny that he is the first person I know about who has exactly the same first and last names as me (his first name is spelled in the western Armenian language, mine in eastern Armenian.)"

 

To omit completely

 

"11. 'History falsified by Armenian apologists in the heat of the

past did a great disservice to their own people by creating a

chronic Turkish neurosis. To keep alive the enmity, they hurt

themselves from within for many a generation of Armenians. Many

assertions have proven renewed enmity was destined to be

counterproductive.' I wish that these sentences were not the last

ones in your article. Probably it would be better to omit it

completely when you are talking about reconciliation."

 

Forbidden to talk

 

"I can't understand why simple Turkish people were forbidden to

talk about the Armenian issue until the end of the '90s. (Doesn't

it seem strange to you?) You are talking with such confidence about history being falsified by Armenian apologists. For me being forbidden to talk is the worst variant of falsification.

 

"Thank you very much for your attention to my message.

 

"Kind Regards, Gevorg Torosyan"

 

My response to Gevorg

 

"I hope you do not mind that your two letters to me are now published in the TDN as I wanted a larger public to read about your views. To make your comments better understood I also took the liberty of correcting grammatically some of your English phrases

although as little as possible.

 

"I am glad that you read my TDN article dated Aug. 20, with

interest and agree with the main conclusion that both our nations

need reconciliation as the rest is history. You already know what

I think of the use and misuse of history.

 

"In the opening sentence of my article there was one small mistake which should have read "the grandfather of my grandfather" had an Armenian friend in Erzurum ... I hope the same was true for your grandfathers and we should follow the footsteps of our fathers to reconstruct this ancient friendship which is so urgent and

necessary.

 

"This was the gist of my article which I will continue to argue and defend as there is no other alternative, none whatsoever.

 

"You take each of my phrases or views one by one, and generally respond critically to my personal views. I leave them for the

reader to decide. I still suggest that you look to the future and do not be a hostage of the past. This is personal advice to a

younger friend.

 

"Finally, I hope you will come back to Turkey as I want to visit Yerevan. Think about Turkish-Armenian reconciliation and continue to believe in the friendship of our two peoples. Above all think positively without ifs or buts.

 

"Best wishes.

 

"Yours sincerely,

 

"Your friends from TDN"

[aurguplu]

dear timucin,

thanks for your comments which i shall adress below:
1. it is true that most intelligent turks over here do agree with the following facts:

i) that the vast majority of ottoman armenians, most of whom were innocent women and children, were killed in ways that would make one ashamed of his humanity, let alone nationality,

ii) that the reprisals against armenians were not confined to conflict-ridden areas but were spread to most of the country,

iii) that the army, which appears to have been given the mandate to protect the deportees frequently sided with the marauding kurds and wrought havoc,

iv) that, finally, the three-thousand year history of anatolian armenians was thus brought to a most dismal end,

v) that, although we are not alone in having committed such crimes (read the bible and see what the israelis had been doing way back, and don't stop reading until you reach today), this fact is of little relief to those armenians whose ancestors were thus killed/uprooted, and to those turks whose ancestors were involved in the events. it doesn't make it any easier to sleep in.

vi) that an apology at least is long overdue.

so much many turks accept. what they don't accept is the following:

i) that the events were an ineviatble outcome of the wartime conditions, and that they could not be considered as a genocide, since government intent has not been established by unequivocal proof.

to this i have several things to say:

i) even the turkish official description of the events paint a picture that broadly fits the term "genocide" as used by such international bodies as the united nations and international court of human rights, a fact often missed by most turks since we are obsessed about the confirmation of the intent to the extent that we fail to ask the obvious question of how such a thing could take place in the first place if the central authorities had not endorsed it. since the perpetrators of a genocide would be well aware of the criminality of such an act, they would do their best to erase all traces that could link the crime to themselves. being at the helm of the government, and being in full control of all communication and documentation facilities (which they were), they would be in a position to execute this task most effectively.

but the fact remains that armenian presence in anatolia, which comprised close to ten per cent of the total population prior to 1915, was effectively brought to an end.

so i think we have to start by at least accepting the fact that the outcome of the events were genocidal in scale and effect even if the intent itself cannot be proved beyond doubt. whatever they wanted to do did result in a picture that i find no other words to describe other than genocide.

ii) proof: as far as our obsession with finding written proof of genocide, let me remind you of the turkish proverb "ayinesi iştir kişinin lafa bakılmaz/rütbe-i aklı görünür eserinden" (the mirror of a man is his actions, words are not to be looked at/the degree of his intelligence can be seen in his works). today, the armenian population of turkey today is about 5% of what it was ninety years ago, a fact crying out for an explanation. and how did all these guys with surnames like marashlian, sivaslian, demirdjian, etc. end up in california, marseille, venice etc?

re written proof of genocide: did you know that there is not a single written official piece of paper with an explicit order to kill the jews written by hitler or any other nazi? there is not a single piece of paper that links hitler, goering, goebbels, and the lot to the jewish holocaust! now are we to take this as proof that they had nothing to do with it, or worse still, that the holocaust did not take place? that would be a crime comparable to the holocaust itself! so we must be careful about our obsession with written documents. and i say this as a would-be historian (whose academic career was truncated by yök and some guys at the istanbul university) who was very thoroughly educated in reading original documents and know and uphold the value of documentary history very well. i am not one of those who comment on history guided by hearsay or emotions, but rather, by solid evidence and sound reasoning.

iii) deportations of entire populations from war zones is a common occurrence in history. everybody did it, and it frequently (but not always) resulted in genocide. for instance, there was the deportation of some hundred thousand black sea greeks to inner anatolia during the war, most of whom survived it intact. so, mass deaths are not an inevitable outcome of mass deportations. you can deport people from one place to another without putting them into conditions where they would die. seen in this light, it becomes increasingly difficult for genocide denialists to maintain that the deaths were an inevitable outcome of the deportations. for instance, there has been a fifteen-year long war in the southeast of turke against kurdish insurgence. over two thousand villages, not to mention cities and towns, were evacuated by the army. and during the armed struggle, much killing also took place. but neither the pkk nor the worst enemies of turkey, especially in europe, accused turkey of carrying out a systematic genocide of the kurds by using these deportations as a cloak (i can say this with certainty, i was in europe for about eight years, and served as a translating officer in the turkish land forces command as a second lieutenant, and one of my tasks was to listen to med tv and write everything down for one whole year(they broadcast in turkish whenever they have something evil to say)). true, the military did do horrible things there, but they did not systematically round up kurdish civilians and have them killed at night outside their villages by former convicts. this last was unfortunately the case with the armenians in 1915.

iv) what is a genocide, and what not?: do you realise, timucin, that most armenians, especially virtually all of those who study it as a subject, refer to the killings of 1915 as the armenian genocide, and not, for instance, the killings by sultan abdulhamid ii in the 1890s? atrocious though they were, the killings of abdulhamid were designed to "reprimand, chastise" (tedip etmek) the armenians, and not to exterminate them. they were local events, and no systematic deportation and the ensuing horrors took place. to the best of my knowledge all of them can be traced to an armenian provocation (whether or not the attacks of some gangs on hapless muslim villages can constitute a justification for the murder of 100,000 innocent civilians, i leave it to your conscience to answer). you see, these events were not desingned to put an end to armenian presence in anatolia, but rather to extinguish insurgences, and they are recognised by armenian scholars as such. the term "genocide" is specifically reserved for the events of 1915.

v) back to documentary proof again: if we are right in saying that there is no writen proof of genocide, then why do we keep the ottoman archives closed? answer: this is a complicated question. the first is that the archives today are in a mess due hostile neglect and some stupid things some "scholars" did way back in the 1930s and 1940s. the first thing anybody will find out when the archives are finally opened is how badly we preserved them. if by then the turkish population will have become asocity of readers, there will be tremendous public outrage. the second thing is that the last portion of the archives tell a lot about the last days of the empire and the first days of the republic, and most of what they tell is in direct refutation of what we were thought at school. not the least of which are clues to the ethnic origins of the founding fathers of the republic, and quite a few prominent political leaders who were alive until recently. the third is the archives of the general staff (genelkurmay), where the records of the ottoman and republican military are kept. these tell all the things that we never wanted to know about. the fourth is that the ottoman archival system operated in such a way that if one document was missing, there ould be at least two other docments referring to it, so any holes in the archives could be picked up by any graduate of ottonman studies. if those idiots really did attempt to purge the documents (something that has been rumoured for decades), it would be absolutely impossible to hide it. and as we know all too well, there are a lot of idiots in our country in positions of power. added to this is the extreme difficulty in forging ottoman documents (which is also rumoured to have taken place): they were written in several different scripts that are known by about a dozen people in the whole of the country (and not many more in the whole wide world), in a language especially designed to be impenetrable to all but a select few, they use several different calendars for different departments of the state, and they are written on several distinct types of paper (each department had its own stationary, and not only the watermarks but also the entire manufacturing process of the paper was different) which have been extinct since the fall of the empire.

i cannot imagine a more daunting task than creating a fake ottoman document that would fool anybody but the uninformed layman.

i can write an endless amount on the subject, but i think it is getting overly long and technical, and don't want to bore you. what the above boils down to is that 1) even our own description of the events broadly fit the internationally accepted definition of genocide 2) we claim it is not documented, and call the people to have a look at our archives, only to close them on their faces, 3) we are hiding the truth from our own people, and 4) we are telling the descendants of the victims of the genocide that there was no genocide. this last is particularly vile: it is like saying to an african american that the slave trade did not take place.

as i have said: owning up to our past crimes will not turn us into criminals. rather, it will clean our soul - to some extent - from the traces of the crime that are still there. and it will also help the victims - again to some extent - to overcome the trauma that still torment them.

we owe it to them.

regards,

ali suat

[aurguplu]

apologies to forum moderators and all readers:

 

i think i have just made a technical mess when trying to edit my message. the above text in black is the edited version of the one above it.

 

apologies and cheers,

 

ali suat

[MJ]

Ali,

 

That'not a problem. You can always edit/delete your materials. Check the Icons that appear on the top of each posting.

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

with all due respect, i think there has been a problem here. i had posted the same material twice with additions in the second version. the material that appears above is the first version, and my additions are not there.

 

my main addition was a paragraph on ataturk. basically i had said that he was not personally involved in the 1915 genocide, as his hands were full with the brits at gallipoli, and that the picture painted by him by his enemies at the battlefield (notably the greek generals he captured, this is a new addition) did not show a criminal like talat or enver (whom he openly disliked, anyway). i had also pointed out that there were quotations attributed to him (and other prominent turks of the period) accepting what had happened to the armenians, the crimninality of it, and the complicity of some (not all) members of the CUP.

 

i recall also having corrected some grammatical mistakes and added a few things, but i cannot remember them very clearly, so i shall leave it as it is.

 

cheers,

 

ali suat

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

 

Then I have to apologize for deleting the second material. I though it was identical to the first one, and deleted it.

 

The reason you got it repeated was that you clicked on the Quotation sign, which performs a function of a reply, preserving in bold face the material fo the previous article. If you want to edit, you have to click the icon with a picture of a white page and a pen.

 

Sorry again for the inconvenience.

[ThornyRose]

Hello, Ali, good to see you back! And I am back online (after a few days of trouble with this damn PC)... Hope to hear more from you! (I will now [or perhaps later] have to go through what I have not been able to read in the past few days...)

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

can you draw me a short list of scholarly publications on the armenian side of the divide (not necessarily written by armenians) that narrate and analyse the issue on a factual basis more or less along the lines 1) before 2) during and 3) after? i know that there are over 20,000 such titles, but cannot read all of them, i would prefer a one-volume work that deals with the issue and provides an extensive bibliography. i am sure there are a few "must reads" that are recognised as such by armenian historians.

 

when i get into discussions on the issue over here, we get bogged down in details, and, tedious though it is, you have to know your details, otherwise the opponent, even though on the wrong side, can defeat you by dint of his/her greater command of the scholarly material.

 

thanks in advance,

 

yours,

 

ali suat

[MJ]

Ali,

 

Please clarify what material do you mean when referring to the "1)," "2)" etc. It seems like there are few such materials with numerated paragraphs.

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

by before during and after i mean before, during and after the genocide. a scholarly analysis should examine the issue in its context in a chronological fashion. as this is an area which has become a hotbed of debate, i have seen quite a number of publications (from both sides) that are so busy at piling mud at the other side (and other publications) that they overlook this basic principle of scholarly writing. most publications are also little more than the printed-and-bound versions of elongated versions of the type of hysterical material that you find everywhere, resembling a bit the postings of some of the less diplomatic members of this forum (no offence intended). i need a factual, balanced, cool-headed one-volume of the study that first states the facts, then analyses the differing positions of both parties, and proceeds to a conclusion.

 

also, i would be grateful if you could direct me to a history of armenia and the armenians, and in a different vein, i would be grateful if you could direct me to a history of armenian arts, and an anthology of armenian literature in translation (i know no armenian as yet (time!)).

 

you see, the only reason why most people are interested in the armenians is the genocide. well, they also were the first christian nation and had a most remarkable architecture and music about which i would like to know more.

 

i am being chased by two ladies to complete some translation work over here and gotat say goodbye now.

 

cheers,

 

ali suat

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

 

With some [minor] exceptions, the serious studies on the subject of the Genocide by the Armenian scholars have a history of not more than some 15 years.

 

Though there is a huge body of publications by the Armenian side on the subject for at least 80 years, these publications have primarily been of either eyewitness accounts character, which we can agree that is important, I think, or emotional discharges about the Turkish, or more accurately "Islamic barbarism," or under the best scenario of a character of gathering corroborative documents. The systematic attempts of putting things in proper political and causational-implicational perspective have not too long of a history, as I mentioned above. In Soviet Armenia that level of professional research has almost been absent, and the research has primarily served a purpose of terrifying further the Armenian nation through the reiteration of the fear of another Genocide awaiting us on the other side of the border, in case we may think to pull out from under the dominance of the Russians/USSR, and in Diaspora it has served under the best scenario the cause of preservation of Armenian identity under the very difficult conditions, through very inexpedient and unprofessional reiteration of the horror of the Genocide. But primarily, in the eyes of the Armenian masses, the Genocide has been not a professional subject, but family history.

 

Of the top of my head, I can point you immediately to Vahakn Dadrian's fundamental work called "Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law: The World War I. Armenian Case and its Contemporary Legal Remifications" published in Yale Journal of International Law, v. 14, no. 2, 1989. The publication is accompnaied with vast Bibliography consisting of materials of Turkish and European Archives, Armenian, Turkish and other scholars. There are a couple of his articles available in the online domain, which we have made available in our forum.

 

As to providing you with some references on Armenian Art, Music, Architecture, History, in general, let me think a little bit about it. There are some online materials, and some are available in our forum. But give me some time to gather my thoughts, and I will give you some meaningful references, hopefully. Meanwhile, if others in the forum may come up with good ideas, without referring you, as you warn us to 1000 different publications, I would ask them to step in.

[MJ]

For Timucin:

 

2. The Use of Rising Armenian National Awareness as an Excuse for Liquidation

 

 

The international efforts of the European Powers may in fact have caused Armenians more harm than good. By raising consciousness and hope of the oppressed people within Turkey, without concurrently enhancing their power, international actors created a situation in which the Ottomans had both the incentive and the excuse for the final resolution of the “Armenian problem.” Encouraged by the promises of the Treaty of Berlin, the Armenians experienced a new sense of national consciousness, which in turn engendered rising expectations. Sporadic displays of assertiveness began to erode their tradition of passively enduring the abuse endemic to the Ottoman system. Additionally, émigré Armenian individuals formed committees in the capitals of Europe to protest these abuses and to push for the implementation of promised reforms. As the Ottoman regime resisted these agitations and refused to execute the reforms, in any meaningful way, Armenian revolutionary cells emerged within and without the Empire and prepared for combat.

 

In a report to Paris entitled Expose historique de la question armenianne , long-term French Ambassador Paul Cambon traced the genesis of the “Armenian question” to this period. He wrote:

 

A high ranking Turkish official told me, “the Armenian question does not exist but we shall create it.”…Up until 1881 the idea of Armenian independence was non-existent. The masses simply yearned for reforms, dreaming only of normal administration under Ottoman rule… The inaction of the Porte served the vitiate the good will of Armenians. The reforms have not been carried out. The exactions of the officials remained scandalous and justice was not improved… from one end the Empire to the other, there is rampant corruption of officials, denial of justice and insecurity of life… The Armenian diaspora began denouncing the administrative misdeeds, and in the process managed to transform the condition of simple administrative ineptness into one of racial persecution. It called to the attention of Europe the violations by the Turks of the Treaty of Berlin and thereby summoned up the image of Armenian autonomy in the minds of the Armenian population. France did not respond to the Armenian overtures but the England and Gladstone did: The Armenian revolutionary movement took off from England[100]… as if it were not enough to provoke Armenian discontent, the Turks were glad to amplify it by the manner in which they handled it. In maintaining that Armenians were conspiring, the Armenians ended up engaging in conspiracy; in maintaining that there was no Armenia, the Armenians ended up conjuring the reality of her existence…. The harsh punishment of conspirators, the maintenance in Armenia of veritable regime of terror, arrests, murders, rapes, all this shows that Turkey is taking pleasure in precipitating events [in relation to] an inoffensive population. In reality the Armenian Question is nothing but an expression of antagonism between England and Russia…. Where does Armenia begin, and where does it end?[101]

 

 

Later in the report Cambon prophetically questioned the reasonableness of transporting Armenians to Mesopotamia, a solution the Ottoman government was reportedly contemplating[note that this passage is written by Cambon in 1884 – MJ]. Mesopotamia would later serve as the valley of the Armenian Genocide.

 

From Vahakn Dadrian's "Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law: The World War I. Armenian Case and its Contemporary Legal Ramifications" published in Yale Journal of International Law, v. 14, no. 2, 1989, pp. 251-52.

 

[100] In an exchange with his German colleague Saurma, Russian Ambassador Nelildof commented that the Armenians were frustrated not only by the lack of any tengible results from European intervention, but also by the ensuring massacres. 10 Die Grosse Politik Der Europaischen Kabinete 1871-1914, supra note 83, Doc. No. 2426, at 69. Seee also supra note 90.

[101] 11 Documents Diplomatiques, supra note 83, Dec. No. 50 (Feb. 20, 1894) at 71-74 (1947); see also Livre Jaune. Affairs Armeniens. Projets de reformes dans l’Empire Ottoman 1893-1897. Doc. No. 6, at 10-13 (1897).

 

 

P.S. I appologize for my earlier typo of the data 1984 instead of 1884. Now it is fixed.

 

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[bellthecat]

A couple of years ago I bought a book (in Van of all places!) by Pars Tuglaci titled "Ermeni Edebiyatindan Seckiler" It contains a biography of lots of (mostly) Turkish/Ottoman Armenian writers and poets, plus extracts of their works. It was published in 1992.

Steve

[MJ]

Ali,

 

Here is a tentative list of books available from Amazon.com, which I am sure needs to be filtered out further - I am sure you don't want to go for all of them. Perhaps, you would be better of looking at Richard Hovhannissian's book(s), first. I will also make a list of few other books. I would ask the rest of the members to give their recommendations, too.

 

 

 

Armenians : Their History and Culture; Ara Baliozian

 

A History of Armenian Literature : From Ancient Times to the Nineteenth Century; S. P. Hayrapetean, Srbouhi Hairapetian

 

Armenian Image in History and Literature; Richard Hovannisian

 

Armenia: cradle of civilization; David Marshall Lang

 

The peoples of the hills: ancient Ararat and Caucasus; Charles Allen Burney

 

Armenia and the Near East (Middle East in the Twentieth Century Ser.); Fridtjof Nansen

 

Armenia : The Survival of a Nation; Christopher J. Walker

 

The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times : Foreign Dominion to Statehood : The Fifteenth Century to the Twentieth Century Vol 2

 

The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times : The Dynastic Periods :

 

From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century Vol 1; Richard G. Hovannisian (Editor)

 

Cilician Kingdom of Armenia; T. S. R. Boase (Editor)

 

The ancient civilization of Urartu; B. B. Piotrovskiæi

 

Contributions to the Archaeology of Armenia (Harvard University, Peabody Museum of Archaeology; Ethnology, Russian Translat); V.P. Alekseev, et al

 

Transcaucasia, Nationalism, and Social Change : Essays in the History of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia; Ronald Grigor Suny (Editor), Kennan Institute for Advanced Russia

 

Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918; Richard G. Hovannisia

 

Armenian Revolutionary Movement : The Development of Armenian Political Parties

 

Through the Nineteenth Century; Louise Z. Nalbandian

 

The Republic of Armenia Vol 1; Richard G. Hovannisian

 

The Republic of Armenia : From London to Sevres, February-August, 1920 (Vol Iii) Vol 3; Richard G. Hovannisian

 

The Republic of Armenia : Between Crescent and Sickle : Partition and Sovietization (Vol 4) Vol 4; Richard G. Hovannisian

 

The Kingdom of Armenia; M. Chahin

 

Armenians in the Service of the Ottoman Empire 1860-1908; Mesrob K. Krikorian

 

Armenia and the Crusades : Tenth to Twelfth Centuries : The Chronicle of Matthew of Edessa (Armenian Heritage); Matthew, et al

 

The Tricolor over the Taurus : The Franco-Turkish War for Cilicia, Crucible of the

National Liberation Movement (American University Studies. Series); Robert F. Zeidner

 

Armenia between Byzantium and the Sasanians; Nina G. Garsoèian

 

Pre-History of the Armenian People; Igor Mikhailovich Diakonov

 

East of Byzantium : Syria and Armenia in the Formative Period; Nina G. Garsoian (Editor)

The Fortifications of Armenian Cilicia; Robert W. Edwards

 

Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule 1807-1828; George A. Bournoutian

 

Politics and Demography : Armenians, Turks and Kurds in the Ootoman Empire (Zoryans Institute, Special Reprots : No 4); Levon Marashlian

 

Nationalism and socialism in the Armenian revolutionary movement (1887-1912); Anahide Ter Minassian

 

Transcaucasia : Nationalism and Social Change-Essays in the History of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia (East European Ser: No 2); Ronald Suny (Editor)

 

Armenian victories at Khznavous and Sardarabad on May 23, 1918 : and program for re-establishment of independent and neutral state of Armenia; Arthur A. Ayvazian

 

The Khanate of Erevan Under Qajar Rule : 1795-1828 (Persian Studies Series, No. 13); George A. Bournoutian

 

A History of the Armenian People : Prehistory to 1500 Ad Vol 1

Turkish Armenia; Henry F. Tozer

 

Geographical names according to Urartian texts; Igoâr Mikhæailovich Dëiìakonov

 

History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Dashnaktsutiun, 1890-1924; Hrach® Tasnapetean

 

Medieval Armenian Culture; Dr. H. Markarian Conference on American Culture;

Armenian Costumes Through the Centuries

 

New Approaches to Medieval Armenian Language and Literature (Dutch Studies in Armenian Language and Literature ; 3); J.J.S. Weitenberg (Editor)

[MJ]

Another reference is

 

The Early history of Indo-European Languages, Thomas V. Gamkrelidze, V.V. Ivanov, Scientific America, March 1990, P.110

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/65...ronicle120.html

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I am not done yet with the references given yesterday.

 

Another starting point for getting familiarized with Armenian Arts would be its most traditional expression – the Armenian Miniature. Some of it may be found at /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=5&t=000094 .

 

Also check http://www.itgateway.com/unesco/fullpage.htm for some sources of Armenian Miniatures.

 

In general, you can see a lot of exhibitions of Armenian Art at http://www.gallery.am./

 

I will try to find some writings on the subject, later.

/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=5&t=000093 would be a good starting point for getting familiarized with the Armenian Architecture.

 

The follwoing site may be a good starting point (also for many Armenians ) for getting familiarized with the Armenian Music: /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=6&t=000113

 

To be continued.

 

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

i must admit that i honestly did not know about the thing that cambon wrote, and had never read in anywhere either in books or online until now. if it can be proven to be authentic, it must be translated into turkish and published here.

 

i cannot fail to note the parallel between this and what the army has been doing with the kurdish question.

 

regards,

 

ali suat