Get over it, this ain't no 1915 it's 2001

[aurguplu]

dear martin,

 

by the way, what was your field when you were an academician, if i may ask?

 

dear timuçin,

 

i visited your forum, liked it, and have a few suggestions:

 

the black background kind of tires the eye, and perhaps the mateial could be visually a bit better organised. for instance, i found hye forum the best organised and visually most appealing of all forums that i have been to (not that i have been to all that many). it does not tire the eye, everything is clearly organised, so if you want to laern something about armenian painting you know where to go to, or feel too good and think you need to be depressed and insulted, you know where to find gamavor's, or, wh00t's, or paul bunyan's postings. i have not noticed them under "culture" (i may have missed).

 

i think if you got the background lighter (white is just fine) and organised the topics a bit more it would be just fine.

 

regards,

[MJ]

It has been a torturous path from Pure Mathematics through Applied Mathematics to Applied Finance.

[aurguplu]

oh god

 

so you started off as someone who loved maths, then who figured out that he had to do something "useful" with it and ended up in the most mind-numbing subchapter of your beloved subject just do make a living, am i correct?

 

it's a bit like mine, i started with historical linguistics because i love languages and studying their evolution, then was made to move to translating medieval stuff because somebody had to translate them (they are usually so boring that professors dump the subject onto the shoulders of their best students who are encouragedto take it as "apprenticeship" and "your first published piece of academic work" and then ended up translating business texts when i left academia. i still do that to make ends meet in this crisis.

 

life is a bitch sometimes, isn't it?

[MJ]

In some ways I am a pragmatist and in other ways maximalist. I asscribe to the idea that the real life is the best test for all theories. I look at my career as one consistant line of evolution. No regrets - I enjoy what I am doing.

Life may be a btich sometimes, but one may try to extract value even from that.

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[aurguplu]

baboyan,

 

what do you do with those turks who admit to what they (or rather their ancestors) did, even if their government denies it?

 

regards,

[timucin]

Dear Martin,

 

I am not so much becoming part of the academia either. That is why I stressed the difference between academicians and intellectuals. And, in the world of intellectuals, I did have enough experience. I hope you are not assuming that I am about to start my life just now, fresh from the college. The only reason I am even slightly considering academic life is because I can have access to some sources. That is it. I already know what it is and that I know I do not want to part of it. By the way, I thank you for offering to provide me with your experience of the academic life, but I plan to do it, if I ever, in Turkey.

 

With all due respect, at this point, I do not think I will go on discussing the genocide issue any further. I simply do not have the time, and owing to our different backgrounds and contextual conditions, I do not think we will really be able to get anywhere. I can discuss here for hours about the Ottomans, Turkey’s responsibility, non-political aspects of the Genocide issue, various historical approaches, and we will probably not get too far. I have observed quite a few Turks over the years in these forums, and in other dimensions of life in Turkey on this issue and I have seen many that were able to change in a positive manner. I am yet to see equal number of Armenians, perhaps with the exception of one person, okay, maybe two, to show anything in similar terms. Under these conditions, I do not think much will happen between our respective groups. I have still not seen a special discussion in a Turkish forum devoted to proving or showing the genetically messed up nature of the Armenian race. Perhaps, there is, I do not know, although I have seen quiet many Turkish forums.

 

Your ‘court’ example is most interesting, and thanks for giving us the right to say that we can plead guilty or not guilty. I am touched, but there are a lot of questions I can ask about this example. Of course I forgot, I am not allowed to question, but I will do it any way. Who makes up the jury for example? And, why the jury system anyway? And, what happened to the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty? Or, what about not influencing the jury, keeping our mouths shut until the case is resolved? Give me a break. The whole thing became a political struggle, a struggle in which considerations of time, interests, cornering the other side, blackmailing became important tactics. I wish this was not the case, but unfortunately it is. My personal feelings and convictions unfortunately do not count a bit in this mess. I will of course go on saying what I believe is the right thing, but I hardly think, especially in line with some of the posts Steve wrote here, I can really make even a smallest difference in this craziness.

 

You, I guess, still do not get it: the genocide is neither an Armenian nor a Turkish property. It belongs to us, the whole humanity. It is our failure as humans, the failure of the modern project, and the most obvious signal that we need to explore other options. The Genocide convention and various attempts to supposedly correct the wrongs based on this convention or other modern legal concepts is simply another way of not dealing with the problem, but creating excuses for it. Can you for a minute imagine yourself as a human being and see myself not as a Turk, which is not a very correct approach in my case anyway, but just as a fellow human being. Turkish state is a Turkish state in your mind. In fact, it is just another state happened to be run by people who call themselves Turks now. This means nothing. It is the ‘Devlet’ (state) as we Turks say it. You guys, my apologies for the undue generalization, make it an ethnic thing.

 

What am I saying here? Give up the whole thing? I guess not. There is this dimension of the whole thing which is us about not giving it up. We will continue with what we think is the right. But, there is also the other dimension of the same thing which is about us not even getting close to hiding the problem right on the target by sticking to what we think is the right approach, and because of this we will fail. There is one thing, however, you are correct about: time is not working for neither of us, if we see things in terms of two separate nations. The solution of the problem perhaps lies in opposing the Turkish state, the ‘Devlet’, but there is simply no movement that has taken this as its goal at the moment. And, without such movement, nothing is going to happen. You may bomb the enemy in the field, but eventually you need to send in the infantry. Where is the infantry? It is nowhere to be seen. You want a war to bring down the Turkish State then you make one, and if you cannot make one then the rest is simply b.s.

 

The simple truth is that the Armenian side is not making a war. A lot of talk, but no action. Let us go to the French parliament, let us go to the American Congress, or lobby this congressperson or that one. Good luck. Let us have a movie with Akcam and Dadrian, where Dadrian tells the whole world that he cannot do research in Turkey because he is afraid of getting killed there, yeah, as if all these things are going to accomplish anything. Perhaps more will be accomplished, if Dadrian would just go to Turkey and appeared in his hometown.

 

Okay, you may ask me how come I am not doing anything of this sort. Well, I simply do not care. I have realized that Turkey is the most democratic country as long as you do not mess with anything, like any other country. I do not see any reason why I should mess with anything. Perhaps, when my daughter grows up, and perhaps, like me in past, gets involved in political struggles, and perhaps gets herself in jail, tortured and even killed, then I will probably become a vigilante of some sort. Perhaps nothing of the sort will happen, my daughter will meet the world of drugs, fun and sex. Or, perhaps she will fall in love, decide to come back to the States, where she was born, live somewhere in LA happily and forever. Life is funny. Just a couple weeks ago, I was attacked on the streets of San Francisco, while doing my job; nothing serious. I could have beaten the shit out of the attacker, I am actually capable of doing it, but I did not, because I though about my job, the possibility I might have lost it if I got involved in this incident, the fact that my daughter’s life depended on my being a normal citizen, not a hero, and many other things. Twenty years ago, I would not have even thought for a second.

 

The simple fact is that the Turkish State will never do anything to me, unless I get myself involved in certain activities that will target its very existence. You may have the idea that the evil Turkish state is after everyone in Turkey, but that is simply not the case. As long as you do not pick up a fight with it, you can have your own life without nothing happening to you. When I go back to Turkey I may get myself into the academic life, become a teacher in a university, teach a few classes, and occasionally pretend to be a cool guy by making anti-establishment statements in the class, and in summers go down to my hometown by the Aegean Sea, Bodrum, spent some beautiful weeks, get on a boat, have a cruise, and come back to my simple existence, get paid and go on. Or, I might set up my own business in my hometown, chat with friends, do a little drinking, a few trips here and there, read a little, get on the forums, if I still find them interesting, and live happily. This is a fact, simple as that, and as long as this is the fact for quite many people nothing will change.

 

Well, this is it. Perhaps, there is not much coherence in what I have just written. Take it anyway you like. It is perhaps a discourse of and by an anti-hero.

 

By the way, I was not trying to mail you the Dadrian paper. I though I had made this clear. And, my point was that Ali might have been in surprise for what he thinks the Armenian side says about the Hamidian massacres and the genocide of 1915. There is actually a disagreement on this point as Dadrian has developed his theory that the Hamidian massacres were not simply massacres to fix a few problems in the Empire, but were preparatory exterminatory measures, testing the grounds type, the outcome of which was 1915, the final solution. And, the reason I had mentioned that Dadrian had evolved was not because I see anything wrong with this kind of behavior, but that he (Ali) should read at least all of his major works in order to be in a better position to reach conclusions. As far as I know there are three major works by him, not including the exchange between Turkish and Armenian historians. I have read all of them, and am now in the process of going over in detail the History of the Armenian Genocide.

 

It was interesting to read that you are friends with Suny. I have read at least one of his other works on some other ethnic stuff, not Armenian Genocide, and I admire some of his thoughts.

 

t.

[timucin]

Ali,

 

Thanks for the input about my forum. It is actually a personal brain storming area for me, so I do not much care about making it a major forum.

 

I like hye forum too, but I do not have the forum technology they have. The Balck background coler may be a problem, you are right. I will try other options. About organizing it better, it seems that the main contributors of my place, which are not too many, sort of voted for that arrangement. Otherwise, I am also organizing it a bit better, but then I have a problem with rigid lines, tables and the like. Sometimes I enjoy chaotic arrangements more. But, then, the Hye forum is a collection of many mini-forums with a high volume of participants. I am just a mini-forum with an identity problem.

 

anyway, thanks for the input again

[MJ]

Dear Timucin,

 

 

I would first like to address the issue of the Turkish vs. Armenian forum members and their dynamics of their thinking. You say:

 

I have observed quite a few Turks over the years in these forums, and in other dimensions of life in Turkey on this issue and I have seen many that were able to change in a positive manner. I am yet to see equal number of Armenians, perhaps with the exception of one person, okay, maybe two, to show anything in similar terms.

 

Perhaps you have a point or two here, which I would like to try to elaborate further. First, we have to notice that by in large, the Armenians from Armenia proper are not represented in this forum due to the very high cost of access to Internet in Armenia, their not too much fluency in English (those who have access), and perhaps due to other reasons which I didn’t have explanation for. That is about the half of the Armenian nation, to which the readers of this or other forums have not been exposed to at all. Now, there are members here, he are born in Armenia, but are grown in America, Europe, elsewhere, and they are not too much reflective of the mentality of the population of Armenia. I am born in Armenia, however, I live in the US for the last 10 years. I am a typical representative of an intellectual Armenian from Armenia (if I don’t lift my profile up who would do it, right? ). Maybe I am a little more cosmopolitan than others like me would be. I have been such prior to my arrival to America. While my heart is Made in Armenia, my mind is an American product. Most of the people in this forum are Armenians whose lives have been directly impacted by the Genocide, even though they are quite young. Professional studies conducted by high level psychiatrists under the auspices of the UN testify that the Genocide of Armenian has resulted in a very significant schizophrenia in some (perhaps vast) segments of Armenians.

 

This is a sad fact. While not being a psychiatrist, I think I can observe it in few Armenian online forums. It is not something to laugh at. It is another testimony on the horror of the Genocide, and its implications three generations later.

As far as the discussions of the genetic makeup of the Turks are concerned, I have to bring to your attention that there are also such discussions in these forums about the genetic makeup of Armenians, half-Armenians, quarter Aremnians, etc. As indicated by one of the members of this forum as late as yesterday, in my view to these discussions about the genetics are indeed an form of schizophrenia making me really to vomit – I have no words of justifications for it. But the sight of one thing has not to be lost – due to our realities, it has been impossible to provide adequate exposure to the Armenian cultural thought to the vast segments of Armenians. Many have grown up in ghettos, have been exposed to some “insights” by some uneducated patriarchal “uncles,” some accidental priests, etc. It is our sad reality, but our newly established statehood gives us reasons for optimism.

 

About my ‘court’ example. I am not in a position not to allow ‘you’ plead ‘not guilty.’ As a matter of fact, this is what ‘you’ where doing all along with rare exceptions of some honorable individuals, and presenting 'yourself' as a victim in this sense looks a little bit disingenuous, if I am to be diplomatic. You definitely are allowed also to ask a lot of questions, only I don’t see why should you get so defensive about it, and using the terminology of financial markets, I don’t see why do you want to “hedge your exposures” after each sentence. I think it is suggestive of something. What do you think?

 

The ‘jury’ is already made up. We are not the one who has made it up. There are two major International bodies, which can serve as ‘jury,’ and they are representative of their respective nations – EuroParliament and the UN. Both bodies have recognized Turkey guilty in genocide – the EuroParliament has done so in 1980, I think, and the HU Human Right’s Commission has done it in mid 80’s, if I am not mistaken. I hope you are not going to claim bias. Talking about blackmailing, I think one who lives in a glass house, should not cast a stone. Armenians in no way can compete with the blackmailing capacity of the Turkish state, which has vigorously and consistently exercised that ability for decades against the US, UK, France, Israel, other countries, forcing their corresponding Ministries of Foreign Affairs and the Military-Industrial establishments exert pressure on their legislative bodies. Does the interference of namely these bodies suggest something about the Turkish blackmail, you think? And I think you are very wrong about it. For example, my US Congressman has written me a formal letter in response to my appeal to him to vote for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide in the House of Representatives that while he acknowledges the fact of the Genocide, and considers it as crime against the humanity, and he thinks that it should be recognized, he had to give considerations to the arguments of the State Department, according to which the lives of the US military and other personnel on the Turkish soil would’ve been endangered. I have had no leverage on him to influence his position one or another way, have never contributed money to his campaigns, nor I believe there may be more than a handful Armenians in our districts, whose votes would be of any concern to him – he recognizes the occurrence of the Armenian Genocide based on his own judgment.

 

When talking about what Steve has written here, I don’t know what are you insinuating, therefore cannot address it.

 

With all due respect, and contrary to your allegation, I think it is you who doesn’t get what I am talking about when saying that Turkey has to step up and claim ownership of the Armenian Genocide. What I mean is that the liability of the Armenian Genocide belongs to Turkey, while understandably, the genocide being crime against the humanity, its tragedy belongs to the whole humanity. Unless we are interested in making this argument a linguistic game, and making arguments for the sake of the arguments themselves, I don’t see how this simple thing may require further deliberations.

 

Creating excuse for the problem, as you suggest, whereas the problem is the Genocide itself, is not in our interests. If anybody is creating or attempting to create excuses for it, I think it is you, here. In what way relaying on the document which is the defining document of Genocide in the international practice is an attempt from our side to create excuses? Why should we create excuses if the crime is created by Turkey?

 

I have to also indicate that I find your remarks about me “imaginingg myself for a moment as a fellow human being” quite offensive and uncalled for. What makes you to burst like this?

 

About the current Turkish state being another Turkish sate, and ran by other people, and consisting from other people… I find this statement to be a total absurd (forgive my French, please). It is interesting that when it comes to assuming the liabilities of the Ottoman Turkey, you want to distinguish the modern Turkey from the previous one, but when it comes to the assets, you want to keep the inheritance of the assets from the Ottomans? Does it make a lot of sense to you? If I am going to take your word for it, are you (meaning the modern Turkish state) ready to denounce the Treaties signed by the Ottoman Turkey, and to revert the history back to the pre-Republic of Turkey period? Forgive me my friend, but your argument doesn’t have legs, and I am sure the first opponent of such argument of yours would be the government of the Republic of Turkey.

 

I also have to tell you that I am much puzzled and almost enraged at your contemplation of us wanting war, bombing Turkey, but not willing to send our infantry. My expectations from you where much higher, I have to admit. Didn’t expect such machoism from you. Your more intellectual arguments just pail under the shadow of this one. Don’t you understand that what we are doing is exactly for the sake of preventing another war and another tragedy, because the unrepentant party is prone to strike again?

 

Lobbying, or whatever you call a congressman is a manifestation of democracy in action. It is a vehicle for us, the US citizens to make our voices heard by our elective representatives. How do you make your voices heard by your representatives in Turkey, or what is your recommendation? Should we just forget things?

 

I also find your outburst about Dadrian’s concerns of being killed in Turkey very strange. From one side you claim that “as long as you do not pick up a fight with it[meaning Turkey -MJ], you can have your own life without nothing happening to you,” but you recommend Dadrian to do the very thing that you are reluctant to do. And if you don’t care about the issue, and all you care is your daughter, why are you here, and what are you trying to accomplish? Don’t you find that you contradict yourself too frequently? If I am not mistaken you are a psychology major, right? In such case, you would be an interesting cases studies for yourself, I think.

 

I have to also admit that I agree that there is not much coherence in what you have written. Only it is not only about the one passage that you have pointed to, but more or less your entire material.

 

You say, “By the way, I was not trying to mail you the Dadrian paper. I though I had made this clear.” You were apologetic there by saying, “Unfortunately, I cannot mail the only copy I have either.” My intend was to indicate that there was no need to feel apologetic, sinse there was no need for you to mail it to me.

 

As far as the merits of the Hamidian massacres are concerned, I know exactly what Dadrian’s argument is, and I know exactly that Suny doesn’t agree with him on this matter. That is Dadrian, and that is Suny. What is your pint here?

 

By the way, for the record, I haven’t said me and Suny where personal friends, but there was friendship between our families (in the years we have resided in Ann Arbor). And indeed some of his thoughts deserve admiration.

 

To conclude this dialog, which I have to admit that I am not conducting with great pleasure, I would like to ask you to confirm or deny that you have posted the following material in another forum:

 

“I respect your argument, but...

 

by timucin (no login)

 

the Genocide argument is an already old story. In politics, you can not stick to the same slogan for too long. You create a slogan, do your thing and get your results. If the whole thing is not swift then people will get bored and go home. This is always the major dilemma in every revolutionary and political movement.

 

The only solution right now is a long term one; the evolutionary kind, the one that depends on education, and in this kind of struggle you try to look for long term interests.

 

Anyway, I am talking in fragments; I am probably not very clear. I am sleepy anyway. But, the genocide argument is done with. It is a different game now, one that is more about reconciliation and creating normalcy in relations between both nations.

 

End the Genocide! That end word implies swiftness. It is like let us go and end it right now right here. Well, if you cannot then it fails. You go to the American Congress and lose it. Your Patriarch falls in contradiction with you. What - two major losses. The momentum goes down. People lose interest. Time is now on the Turkish side. The crucial point here is that nobody in this world can get the Turkish state end its denial unless it does it voluntarily. It is simple as that.

 

Reconcilation on the other hand is about time; it implies slow and evolutionary movement. If you are careful you can see that the whole mood is slowly changing. We are going from confrontational politics to the kind based on negotiations in this conflict. Both sides tested the waters. Now they are more aware of their capabilities. There is now actually more hope for both nations. “

 

If it is indeed a statement that you have made in the past, please help us to understand what to make out of it and your postings in our forum.

[khodja]

Given your last post, I am sure that we are acquainted with some of the same Armenians.

I agree with most of that which you have stated to Timucin. Yet on other issues we are at opposite poles. So you see that two Armenians may come to quite dissimilar conclusions based on life experiences.

[gamavor]

MJ,

 

As you can see, more realistic (meaning not European approach) would be more rewarding when dealing with turks. As I said people like Ali Suat are kind of "mistaken" turks. The vast majority is retarded bastards whose heads are full with sick ambitions, not knowing that wherever they go outside Turkey they are the scum of the Earth.

Fake intellectuals "who question everything" because some fake turkish "intellectual" told them that being "intellectual means to question the things in life" can not produce anything positive except more questions, which at the end will lead them to the conclusion that there was not a Genocide, but some kind of mass slaughter of enraged hungry savages, which by the way was something common for the turks since their birth.

I have seen the turkish ghettos in Germany, Belgium, France. These people are irreparable.

[MJ]

Gamavor,

 

As much as I can understand your source of anger, I am compelled to issue your first formal warning. You have two more to earn to be banned.

[timucin]

Martin,

 

I think the discussion is getting out of control. Are you sure you are having this discussion with me, or is there another Timucin somewhere here?

 

I am either doing a terrible job in presenting my case, which is possible since I have done it before, or we belong to separate mindsets so different from each other that we cannot even understand each other. I am assuming the second one is the case, and therefore, with your permission, I will throw in the towel. Let me give you a couple examples.

 

About blackmailing, I actually had the Turkish side in my mind. It never crossed my mind that I could blame the Armenian side for it. While at it, you should have picked up my other posts that I wrote against the Turkish state. So, you would see how I feel about it.

 

Another example was the Turkish state being run by others. I do not really know how you got that. No wonder you find it absurd. You perhaps needed to know what the ‘Devlet’ thing is about. I thought you knew enough about the situation in Turkey that I did not see the need to go into explaining what I meant by this concept. My fault. I should have guessed it.

 

A few things before I go: I do not see myself as a victim. That is your assumption. I did not say such a thing anywhere in my post, and in fact, if I recall it correctly, never in my posts. Perhaps, you are making me part of some ‘we’ I am not part of.

 

Secondly, I am not a psychiatry major.

 

Before I go, you mention that you took my ‘try to be a human being for once’ statement as an insult; it was not meant to be an insult. There was again a point there that you missed. I know you are a human being; I do not think you are anything else. I was simply trying to point out to the fact that most of us, almost all of us, are still not able to get out of our ethnic identities, to see that these are actually imagined and constructed identities. Of course, this is my opinion; you do not have to agree with it. Why should I try to insult you anyway? But, I apologize anyway.

 

So, in order not to cause further misunderstandings and more insults or so-called insults, I think it is better to quit this discussion. I cannot go on with it anyway, when almost everything I wrote is being misunderstood (I only gave a couple examples). But, the war and infantry part was the funniest. I used them as metaphors. I don’t expect anyone to grab weapons and start shooting.

 

Anyway, thanks for whatever it was worth. I got myself a valuable lesson.

 

t.

 

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: timucin ]

[MJ]

Timucin,

 

I'll be brief:

 

You are indeed doing a terrible job presenting your case - as always, by the way. Your thoughts are too much tangled out and incoherent.

 

I will take you at your word that you don't mean to say what comes across in your passages.

[timucin]

Martin,

 

Thank you for your kind words; whatever makes you happy. But just one question: when you seemed to be understanding me perfectly previously, during some other discussions, which are naturally on record in this forum, were you pretending? You were not bad, you fooled me.

 

take care

 

t.

[MJ]

Dear Timucin,

 

I think you are taking things very inadequately and way out of their proportions. First, I have never understood you since I have never known you beyond one or two postings of yours, which I have declared that were very ambiguous due to the absence of clarity. I am sorry to say that this remains my main (and only) problem with you - you are not articulating yourself clearly, and I think it is because you are not thinking clearly - this is not a personal remark, but general - the one who thinks clearly, articulates clearly.

 

I have greeted you cordially in this forum, have been eager to see you here, I have been polite to you, I have not insulted you ever, nor I have fooled you - I am sorry that you have such a perception.

 

I think you are a good man, but you have serious problem with the clarity of your articulation. You contradict yourself very frequently - all this because of the way you summon and convey your thoughts.

 

In general, I would like to ask you not to lose the sight of this board being just a discussion board, and not a poker table - the very premise of fooling somebody here is quite ridiculous. The primary question is what for? And I think you are intelligent enough not to be fooled, anyway.

 

If you have some concrete allegations about how have a fooled you, I promise to give you fool explanation and satisfaction.

 

Best wishes,

Martin

 

P.S. BTW, where have I claimed that you were a psychiatry major?

 

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

 

Thanks for the comment.

 

How unfortunate to witness this type of dynamics in our discussions, isn't it?

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

absolutely agree. let's prevent that from dominating, or we will look like the armenian-azerbaijani forum. we are all grown ups. we can do better than that.

 

gamavor,

 

would you please be so kind as to impart us the depths of your wisdom as to how you concluded that i was a "mistaken" turk?

 

is it perhaps because i accept the genocide and seek dialogue?

 

regards,

[MJ]

Armenian azerbaijani forum? Didn't know there is such a thing.

 

In fact I think the Armeno-Azerbaijani relatoins are not ripe for dialog, yet, as much as I would like to see it.

[aurguplu]

gamavor,

 

1) do you see the similarity between i) your remarks on turks and german remarks on the nazis and slavs, and more tellingly ii) turkish and pro-turkish remarks on the armenians at the time of the genocide?

 

2) do you know what kind of background the turks in germany come from, and what circumstances they might have been subject to given the fact that germany has a nazi recent past and turkey is not known for HER loving care for her citizens?

 

3) over a million women from former soviet republics come to turkey for prostitution, many are russians, ukrainians and belarussians. of the non-slavs, armenians are by far the most numerous, probably several hundred thousand strong. now if i had the same attitude toward the armenians as you have against turks, i could draw conclusions about the armenians very similar to yours about the turks! i have never resorted to that, in and out of the forum, and your attitude won't make me do it, either. but think about your attitude.

 

regards,

[aurguplu]

dear timuçin, dear martin,

 

alarm! your discussion is showing signs of deteriorating in quality and getting personal in character.

 

i remind you both of the "occam's razor" principle in logic: if there are two explanations for a given phenomenon, one simple and one complicated, the simpler one is probably the correct one."

 

keep this in mind and you will end up writing a good deal less.

 

regards,

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

 

in fact they aren't, and that forum is a good place to see that.

 

regards & goodnight,

[MJ]

Good night.