IDLE NOISE EMANATING FROM BITLIS

[khodja]

So the Turkish authorities are busy stirring the local townspeople into a frenzy. 100+ year old Turks saying that they saw Armenian killing Turks.

Is there any independent documentation of any of these allegations? Did Western journalists, diplomats or religious personnel f the era ever document anything like this? I have not heard or seen any such documentation. SO IT IS JUST A LOT OF IDLE NOISE CREATED AS A SMOKESCREEN.

[Twilight Bark]

Since THOTH summed it up quite well, I will offer only one number as a reply and explanation: 1984

 

[ March 05, 2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

1984

Of course - newspeak...its the old say something often enough and you even start believing it yourself - this is what has occured with most Turks already. Its up to us to ensure that the rest of the world doesn't buy into their sorry ass tactics. And we must remember its easier for everyone all around just to have collective amnesia and pretend that nothing out of the ordinary ever happened - there has always been some excuse - some countervailing consideration that allows the Turks to escape a critical review. Under the current situation, recognition (and any type of justice), will always be an uphill battle for us. Again the Turks are allowed to sweep it under the rug - will they always be allowed to remain in adolescence?

 

Perhaps it is more like "animal farm" - some animals are more equal then others....

 

[ March 05, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[THOTH]

Yea - and the indians scalped the white man too...bad indians, nasty indians...they must have deserved their fate...don't you figure?

 

In all honesty I am sure some of this did occur. The context is important as is determining exactly who did what, to whom, and when. Cossaaks, for instance, fighting with the Russians were know for their cruelty and savagry - even early in the war (and in past wars against Turks). Could it have been they who did these deeds (in all likelyhood yes - IMO) Could it have also been Armenians from the (Russian) Caucuses - perhaps...or refugees from Anatolia - men who escaped the traps set for them and who knew by then that their families had been slaughtered and their villages were no more. And I suspose some Dashnak and other rabble rousing types may have killed a Turk or so at some time - perhaps even prior to WWI.

 

So I guess the indians had it comming to them - their culture(s) deserved annhilation - their women and childen deserved brutal torture...is this then the Turk argument? We brought it on ourselves - we started it and they only finished the job - etc etc ....hardly.

 

[ March 05, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[wh00t]

Pfffffffffftt get real.

[aurguplu]

hey guys

 

it's been a while since i last contributed to the forum. now re this topic, i.e. whether the armenians had killed the turks, may i humbly inform you that such things did indeed occur. it is true that most such massacres (there were not all that few of them, by the way) occurred after 1915, so that you can call it rough justice if you can rough justice justice. some of them had occurred before 1915, though, some having taken place as far back as the last quarter of the 19th century.

 

of course, these massacres, even if some of them were on quite large scales (involving several thousand victims), could not be used as a justification for the genocide later on. and of course, the notion "turks being victimised by armenians" is ridiculous on the larger scale of things.

 

but one should not blind oneself to the fact that being a victim does not mean that no-one has been or will be your victim: the danger of this attitude can be seen in israel/palestine today: the jews there are trying to occupy as much land as they possibly can, and use the europeans' sense of guilt and sympathy to the very end to reach their goal. the serbs tried to do the same thing in the balkans with less success.

 

and i hope it would no be too much to expect from the distinguished forum members to concede that merely being armenian does not make anyone immune to criminal inclinations.

 

regards,

 

ali suat

[sen_Vahan]

It seems that this problem had no beginning. Armenians were massacring Turks in the end of 19th century and so did Turks at the same time. It is like kids game "you started first!". Was that the answer to Abdul Hamid's actions against Armenian population that Armenians themselves started to kill Turks? Or it was vice versa?

Vahan

[Arpa]

Originally posted by aurguplu:

[QB]hey guys

and i hope it would no be too much to expect from the distinguished forum members to concede that merely being armenian does not make anyone immune to criminal inclinations.

regards,

 

ali suat

 

Strike that "criminal", although it would be foolish to assert that Armenians are any different.

Read about the Heroic Battle of Zeitoun. A desperate attempt of survival even if it took killing. Armenians have hands too which had been left idle for thousands of years until, that is the "knife had reached the bone" (an old Armenian saying).

Here is a true story told first hand by the personna actum.

Names in generic form.

Armenouhi would periodically lose her lucidity. She would scream and lament; "They are coming! He has my Armen! He Killed my Armen!".

Her husband Haik tells it this way. (This was around the 1920's).

One evning he came home. The house was ominously quiet. Armenouhi did not meet him at gate with baby in arms. Haik walked inside the house, it was still quiet. He called for his wife and baby, no answer. Then he happened to see his young bride in a corner of the yard rolled into a ball, in a fetal position. He called for her, she would not respond, she was in a catatonic shock. Upon his incessant questions she pointed to the liefless body of her infant at another corner. When asked what had happened, who had done done it, she pointed towards the ceiling of the house. And just at that moment Haik heard noises coming from the attic. He climbed up the stairs, opened the trap door and saw two eyes looking at him. He recognized him as Mehmet, the next door boy. Haik was a very strong man. Without even a moment's hesitation Haik reached for Mehmet's neck and pressed until his eyes fell out anf his tongue dangled. He left Mehmet there, he dug a small hole in the ground, laid Armen in it, grabbed his wife and left the house. They walked, not looking back again, they walked and walked until they reached a neighboring country that by then was under the French Mandate. They had other children the first of which was again named after the first first born they had buried.

 

Armenians had lost the art of self defense. This may have happened by default but more so by design. Most would extend their necks when ordered, few would stretch their arms as Haik did. If what he did is a sin then let ME burn in hell. It was a sin to let it happen to us. If we only had more Haiks... I would still be in my ancestral home.

[Twilight Bark]

Selam Ali Suat,

Of course such things occurred. The real question is, how can any reasonable observer expect an oppressed population not to produce a few violent reactions to their plight? In fact, Armenians were by far the most pacific of the "millet"s. Only when the oppression got heavier, and their pleas for a semi-decent treatment fell on deaf ears for a long time that some (in fact remarkably few) Armenians started expressing their frustrations violently.

 

I don't disagree with anything you say; I just wanted to put things in their proper perspective.

 

Best,

TB

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

hey guys

 

it's been a while since i last contributed to the forum.

---

Yes, its been far too long. And since the moderators have seen fit to ban/bar the only other reasonable Turk who used to post here (on a consistent basis) and who provided worthwhile commentary/perspective - the burden is even greater on your shoulders (to remind us that an informed Turkish perspective exists - different from that spat out by your government and the majority of Turkish folks who comment/participate on web (or other) forums). And I think it is a particular shame that the moderators of this forum have chosen to ban a Turkish person who is so very active (and valuable) in efforts towards achieving Genocide recognition....but anyway - on to your comments...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

now re this topic, i.e. whether the armenians had killed the turks, may i humbly inform you that such things did indeed occur.

---

I don't think anyone here who commented denied this. While I understand that many Armenians (as many/the masses of any people) are not so historically aware and may only know the broadest brush of facts or history etc - I would think that most here are at least somewhat aware of the activities of Armenian secret societies/political parties prior to WWI and in the early phases of the conflict (the small amount of rabble rousing and the resistance by certain communities and the actions of some in cooperation with the Russians) and of those activities that occured during the war (after the Genocide of 1915) and after (the Russian pull out and post-war).

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

it is true that most such massacres (there were not all that few of them, by the way) occurred after 1915, so that you can call it rough justice if you can rough justice justice.

---

Just how many such massacres committed by Armenians do you contend there were? And I do think the time context/sequencing is important. I would never attempt to justify such acts - but they are understandable considering the circumstances...just as the Jews of Warsaw & Lodz etc dealt harshly with any Germans they might have been able to have their way with....Obviously no reasonable human can cheer on such acts - but at the same time one can understand the type of despair and hatred that can surface and influence ones actions...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

some of them had occurred before 1915, though, some having taken place as far back as the last quarter of the 19th century.

---

Please. Do you wish that I/we enumerate the many, many (beyond accountablity) instances of Armenians being preyed upon by Kurds, Cardassians, chettes of various types, and Turkish soldiers and government dating back.....? Do not attempt to place the blame on the (loyal millet - remember?) Armenians when it was they who were forbidden to arm and protect themselves for many centuries and had to endure the predatory practices of the various nomads & warlords who were basically encouraged to plunder the Armenians to keep us down & subjugated and as a mechanism to direct these plunderings towards something officialy useful.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

of course, these massacres, even if some of them were on quite large scales (involving several thousand victims), could not be used as a justification for the genocide later on. and of course, the notion "turks being victimised by armenians" is ridiculous on the larger scale of things.

---

Yes, please name some/any massacres commited by Armenians prior to 1917 that involved thousands of Turkish victims...(and I am willing to discuss the Van situation at some length if need be - again not that I condone the brutal acts that occured). I know that in certain instances where Armenians may have had the upper hand they acted atrociously (instances in Cilicia after the war come to mind as well as some in the Caucuses) - and this is unfortunate and any excuses do not lessen the tragedy and culpalibility of those who partook of such acts - but please - what your governmentr is attempting to do by trumping up such instances (and totally ignoring what was done TO the Armenians) is both tragic (in the face of the true wide-scale and incredibly brutal Armenian suffering) and laughable - to anyone who knows the history (unfortunatly it is the ignorant audience that your government is counting on...). And it is just so sad.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

but one should not blind oneself to the fact that being a victim does not mean that no-one has been or will be your victim: the danger of this attitude can be seen in israel/palestine today: the jews there are trying to occupy as much land as they possibly can, and use the europeans' sense of guilt and sympathy to the very end to reach their goal. the serbs tried to do the same thing in the balkans with less success.

---

OK - good points. I agree completely. We must not forget history - none of us can afford to do that. I am continually amzaed by the blindness of the Israeli Jews and their supporters in this regard - particularly in regard to the plight of the Palestinians - but also in regards to recognition of other genocides - such as our own.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

and i hope it would no be too much to expect from the distinguished forum members to concede that merely being armenian does not make anyone immune to criminal inclinations.

---

Certainly not - however different cultures and peoples have different histories and inclinations (not sure if right word) to pursue various types of solutions to conflicts - etc. And then there is having the oppurtunity.

 

We should also consider that we are not merely talking of criminal (violent) type of behaviors (in general) among peoples but very specific types of acts - commited by individuals, groups/communities (what have you) and ultimatly nations. There is also the issue of the distinction between killing - on a more or less individual basis and massacre and genocide. Obviously no one can argue that Armenians are incapable of killing. We have also seen (IMO isolated) instances of Armenians being involved in massacre...however the systematic genocide of one nation by another is a (somewhat)rarer (and much more significant/notorious thing - IMO) And I am not trying to imply that Turks have some genetic component or anything or such (as I think by the 19th Century "Turks" are more genetically European (mixed) then (purely) mongol/Turkick per se). What we have to consider (in the case of the Armenian Genocide) is that this period of time was one of incredible stress (on all the peoples in the region), combined with specific circumstances related to death and contraction of empire, combined with some unique cultural relationships among communities that comprised the Empire (and the more recent influx of refugees), and the religious element...all of this combined with the general rise of nationalism and specifically the rise of the CUP led to the environment for such a thing as the Armenian (and associated Christian) Genocides in Anatolia - where and when they occured.

 

But back to the issue of atributing characteristics of groups that may indicate their ability to commit such acts etc...yes, I would argue that there were (still are?) a number of factors that might (better) enable the Turks (or the Germans for instance) to perform such a acts (as a society)...on such a scale...that may be less present in other groups (such as Armenians). Don't forget that massacre was already basically (more or less) an accepted means by which the Sultan controlled "his" population...and the Turks have certainly also had a history of such that I would argue that is more alien to the Armenian (and other more sedentary) peoples.

 

At the same time I do not think any group is immune to such as circumstances and reality can change quickly and unpredictably and who knows under what or whos sway a people may fall (some just might be a bit more resistant or receptive to such things for various cultural reasons). (does any of this make any sense?) Remember the Spanish, English (& Europeans in general) commited genocide (essentially) here in the Americas (and elsewhere in the world) - perhaps not so suddenly at one time...but effectively. Deliberate or byproduct...did we even relize what we were doing? at what level did it register (most who participated in doing such were probably not aware in the least of the overall consequences of their [various] actions)- etc....I don't know...and these questions should be considered regarding the Turks as well I think....certainly I would argue that most Turks who (directly or indirectly) participated in the various acts that comprised the Genocide of the Armenians were aware that what they were doing was something terribly wrong...whether or not they could concieve of what they were doing in the larger sense...I imagine only some did (the CUP & perhaps some of their agents & some of the other local government officials etc). I would be interested in knowing exactly how many individuals and % of the Turkish population who was either involved or aware (at the time) of what what occuring....

[Twilight Bark]

Vahan,

You are thinking too hard and too little simulataneously. There is no ambiguity. A population that is treated with a modicum of dignity would not react violently, as there would be nothing to react to. This is especially true for a traditionally pacific group as Armenians, who preferred to focus on making a living rather than some abstract political ideals. There is no question on "who started it first". The only way to make it ambiguous is to lump the Armenians with the other Christians, which would be unjustifiable. You give way too much credit to the apologist line of thinking.

[Twilight Bark]

That would be a huge mistake. I am no expert on the Balkan revolts, but I know that they were pretty vicious. The muslim refugees pouring into the remaining part of the Ottoman Empire had horrible memories to tell. The "activities" of Armenian "revolutionaries" were nowhere near the scale of the events that transpired in the Balkans (including Greece). However, the Balkan refugees viewed the Armenians as one and the same as the "Christians" that they escaped from. Their subsequent behavior towards the Armenians reflects that. We must know better than that.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by THOTH:

Do you wish that I/we enumerate the many, many (beyond accountablity) instances of Armenians being preyed upon by Kurds, Cardassians, chettes of various types, and Turkish soldiers and government dating back.....?

---

I personally would like to know more about the Cardassians. <img border="0" alt="[lol]" title="" src="smilies/lol.gif" />

I think you might have meant Circassians. Hum-bug.

---

LOL (quite correct) - well at least somebody read it. Perhaps the Cardassians will repress us at some future date...LOL - damn them anyways!

[khodja]

Winston,

 

Cardassians or Kardashians. The first term is nonexistent, the second a prominent Armenian-American family.

[Arpa]

Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

[QB]

Originally posted by THOTH:[QB] I personally would like to know more about the Cardassians. smilies/lol.gif

I think you might have meant Circassians. Hum-bug.

 

The minds is a mysterious organ. It can and will play tricks on you. We all knew what he meant. It can be best explained by the fact that when he was writing about all those he had "gypsies in mind as many of them with no homeland of their own can best be described as such. One thing will lead to another. When one thinks of gypsies one cannot but but thibk of such words as "gnjou", "tsigane" and, of course of "czardasz". The latter may at times be mistaken to mean gypsy but is in fact the national dance of Hungary. At any rate not too far fetched. Circassian, Czardassian? What's the difference? :)Except that the Circassian call themselves Cherkez and so do we.

It is funny how all those tribes who felt so smug with the Turks assisting them in the process of Armenocide based their loyalty solely on religion. It was a good starting point with a collateral benefit of looting and pillage.Some of them are paying through their bloodied noses now.

[sen_Vahan]

Twilight Bark,

I think you misunderstood me a little bit. What you are saying is true but I guess my question was some kind of answer to what Ali Suat said. I can agree that in the Empire some Armenians killed Turks in some vilayets, but that was a responce to Hamid's regime. Asking "maybe it was vice versa" I just want to make sure that we and Ali Suat are talking about the same thing.

Actually, we lump Armenians with other christians living in the Empire (at least I do it sometimes) because massacres were directed to them as well. Another thing is that one should be more careful about how different christian groups responded to the massacres.

Anyway, I think not all the Turkish arguments are not serious. And we have to hold the apologist line of thinking in order to find the contact and the dialogue with Turks(they should do that as well).

Vahan

[Twilight Bark]

I personally would like to know more about the Cardassians.

I think you might have meant Circassians. Hum-bug.

[THOTH]

Arpa - right thought - wrong group. Cardassians are an Alien race from the Star Trek (fictional? LOL) universe. I have actually made this very same mistake before....

[aurguplu]

hi to everyone again,

 

first, i have not been able to post for a while for I AM GETTING MARRIED THIS YEAR! i had always feared the prospect (my dad is in his 3rd marriage), but at the tender age of 34, i finally conceded, and quite easily at that! i had to travel all the way to antakya (antioch) to get her family's approval, and i did! so, sorry for the absence but it was due to force majeure (love), xqz me.

 

now re the points raised: i had pointed out earlier that members of this forum agreed on more points than they realised. broadly speaking, i agree with everything said under this thread, especially tb's analysis of the balkan muslims' attitudes towards the anatolian christians. that was very good, tb.

 

now re the massacres and other armenian "subversive" activities in the empire prior to 1915: i have been telling that i would compile a chronology of them, so far i have not been able to keep that promise, partly due to the force majeure mentioned above, partly due to the difficulty of actually getting sources on the issue safely, partly due to lack of time, and partly due to sheer laziness (very naughty of me).

 

most turkish sources that i saw tend to give graphic and detailed accounts of massacres from 1917-1918. there were disturbances before, and the russian armenians did horrible things, most of which still survives in folk memory (our maid's relatives in refahiye, erzincan were wiped out by armenians), but as far as folk memory is concerned, they are quite unable to accurately date the events and especially order them chronologically (before/after deportations). turkish sources that i saw tend to concentrate on massacres from 1917-1918 because they have pictures of them as well as survivor accounts (some such ancients are still alive at phenomenal age), but as for the pre-1915 and especially pre-20th century stuff, hard evidence as opposed to urban legends is harder to find.

 

of course this is not to mean that the armenians prior to 1915 or 1891-94 had done anything on a scale that would warrant (excuse the term) the cruelties that followed.

 

now re another point, i.e. whether the turks were aware of the nature and scale of the things that they were doing (or were being done in their name), allow me to point out that most save some half-dozen members of the CUP were not aware of the true intent of the deportations until reports reached istanbul. here an interesting issue to raise would be the rumelian origin of talat and enver and the anatolian origin of the others. my own great-grand father, who was a most prominent member of the CUP, did not realise what was going on until it was too late (he did manage to have some armenians sent back to istanbul, though). my impression has been that 1) the concept of "genocide" i.e. wholesale murder of a nation was alien to turks, turks rather tend to have a heavy hand for whatever they see as criminal attitude, but planned liquidation of a nation was not something they were familiar with (i suspect something teutonic there), 2) most of the individual massacres were carried out with a view to revenge (rough justice) for what had happened in the balkans and the caucasus, at least the actual perpetrators were motivated so, 3) the general population was by and large not aware that a countrywide extermination was going on, they could only see what was going on in their vicinity due to poor literacy (literacy rate was about 10%, mostly concentrated in istanbul and a few other big cities, in the east, where most of the armenians resided, and where most massacres took place, hardly anyone was literate) and almost non-existent communications (no mass media, and wireless was controlled by talat), 4) the reaction of civilian and offical turks to the extermination campaign was by no means uniform: some officers refused to comply with orders, risking their necks, some turkish and kurdish villagers sheltered armenians, there were fights between local turks (in kastamonu and kiğı (keghi) esp.) and the incoming army, 5) some very prominent figures of the ottoman ruling class, including people no less than abdulmedjid ii (later caliph) and fevzi çakmak (later marshall) are known to have made statements condemning the killings, and even mustafa kemal is reported to have made at least two statements on the subject, one in 1920 and another in 1926.

 

also, the fact that most of the "abandoned goods" of the armenians were in fact looted by talat and his gang leads me to think that material gain was not an insignificant motivator in the killings, including their planning.

 

my candid opinion is that there were perhaps fewer than half a dozen people at the outset who really knew what was to come, and the fact that it was executed relatively quickly (most of it within a matter of months) and in the turbulent setting of wwi gave people little time to react.

 

i feel we turks have been deceived and led into disaster by the CUP no less than the armenians, and i feel disgusted that we still revere these figures in school books. zülfü livaneli had recently written in sabah about us carrying the sin of the CUP. good reading.

 

cheers,

[khodja]

Ali,

 

Thank you for bringing your unique perspective into this forum. If ever our two peoples are to find a rapproachement, your kind of realism will have to come into the picture. A true assessment of the chain of events will set us all free. Personally, given what transpired in 1915-16, I have no doubt that certain Armenians had the desire to kill Turks in 1917-1918.

 

Within 15 minutes after my grandfather was taken into the countryside to be shot, the Governor of the Vilayet had moved his household into my grnadparents' house in the Anatolian interior. Everything they owned, their personal family photos, insurance papers, financial records, etc. instantly became the possession of the governor.

I ask you how many Armenian confiscated the property of the Turks they may have killed in 1917-1918?

 

Also, congratulations on your upcoming marriage.

[sen_Vahan]

That was a good news, Ali, congratulations!

Amenayn barik em zankanum!

Vahan

[Twilight Bark]

Congratulations!

[khodja]

Ali,

 

I can assure you that no member of my family ever laid a hand on anyone, Turk or otherwise. They just suffered silently and accepted their fate. This led to psychological problems. They used legal means to try to recoup their losses, but to no avail. Armenia was swallowed into the Soviet Union and all legal avenues dried up. My grandmother was able to find the exact circumstances of my grandfather's demise. He was prominent enough to warrant a bullet. But we have not forgotten, Ali, and as you have noticed we are still using legal means to try to obtain justice. In our case their is a paper trail as to where most of the family's wealth went. So I dismiss all the protestations in Turkey as generated by officials trying to cover up the looting done by their grandparents. Neither are the European bankers hands clean. They quietly liquidated many abandoned bank accounts, some by living persons who had lost records. We are not going to let this go.

 

On another topic, I wish you a happy and fruitful marriage.

[aurguplu]

hagarag,

 

i sincerely wish you and all the armenians the best of success in your efforts to get justice by legal means. of course, the chief reason why turkey has evaded recognition is precisely that: the looted properties of the armenians. we suspect in this country that some of this wealth ended up in the ittihadists's hands, but much of it was grabbed by the chetes. there is also the question of real estate. i think that you guys would have a greater chance of getting compensation for real estate than movables, except if the movables in question were recorded in banks and if these records were still extant. i do not know the extent to which legal material pertaining to this question has survived until now. can you tell me, if you know, of how this question was addressed in the case of the jewish holocaust?

 

thanks for the congrats, by the way. we still have a long way to go (we think the date will be september), but this weekend we will sort out the first round of the rings.

 

cheers,

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

hagarag,

 

i sincerely wish you and all the armenians the best of success in your efforts to get justice by legal means. of course, the chief reason why turkey has evaded recognition is precisely that: the looted properties of the armenians. we suspect in this country that some of this wealth ended up in the ittihadists's hands, but much of it was grabbed by the chetes. there is also the question of real estate. i think that you guys would have a greater chance of getting compensation for real estate than movables, except if the movables in question were recorded in banks and if these records were still extant. i do not know the extent to which legal material pertaining to this question has survived until now. can you tell me, if you know, of how this question was addressed in the case of the jewish holocaust?

 

thanks for the congrats, by the way. we still have a long way to go (we think the date will be september), but this weekend we will sort out the first round of the rings.

 

cheers,

---

Yes - you agian demonstrate how well you understand the various aspects of this problem. The economic aspect was key then (and the CUP and previously been funded - for the large part - by Armenians - so they certainly understood that there was wealth to be had) and the economic concerns now.

 

The Germans have had to compensate surviving Jews as far as I know - and have done so to a significant degree. I should note that the Post-War German governement is not the same as the one that existed in WWII - yet they have assumed this burden (and the shame of the acts) - things that the government of Turkey and most Turkish commentators on these forums and such - adamatly refuse to do.

 

Also earlier you spoke to the issue of few Turks knowing what was occuring to the Armenians - a point I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts. I think this issue needs to be investigated more (by academics & such) and discussed (by our peoples). I don't let the common Turkish people off the hook as much as you seem to imply - because many commited great atrocities (and many resisted as they could and helped Armenians - this too need to be examined & emphasised).

 

And BTW - congratulations on your upcomming marriage! As the day approaches you sill have to enlighten us on your plans. I'm not really sure what you guys do (I mean Muslims..I assume that it will be some sort of a Muslim ceremony...no?) etc. Again - much happiness to you and your bride - treat her well now!