nairakev Posted June 1, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Now that we are both happy, perhaps we could go back to the subject of the thread? [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]OK! If you want so! See u, soon I'm a working person. So it takes me 1 hour to go back home and some time to forget about my job... As a warm up... Why do you say that guy found many things in common with the author? What makes him feel actually that way? I mean he can't like him just because of smart ideas. They all got them. What were the points that unite them actually?... later on I'll catch you, MJ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 The author provides documents from various sources, including from some of the letters of Theodore Herzl, which come to indicate that the founders of (Western) Zionism have actively interjected themselves actively in the middle of the Armenian-Turkish tension, and have attempted to use the conflict in the name of persuading Sultan Hamid to grant the Jews sovereignty on the territory of Palestine. It also provides documents of some collusion of some segments of the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire in some local Armenian massacres. Additionally, it sheds light on the (business-economic) benefits that the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire has received/has been offered as a result of the declaration of the Armenian population of the Empire “The Enemy of the Nation” by the Ottoman Government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Niara, if you are talking about the alleged resolution of the supposed genocide perpetrated by Armenians, there is none, because there was no such passed resolution, Azerbaijan being a newly member, the first thing they did is trying to pass a resolution that will probably never pass. What i got is a link from a French denialist site, this one, contrary to other site do not only use manipulations and hidings, or proposing biased sources, this one lie direcly, and when you email them you have no answer. I emailed them one day with a Turkish name Dogan Küral, I never had an answer. Here is the head of French denialist site http://www.tetedeturc.com Read the second flash, you'll see what I mean, the 29 members that they are talking about well, majority Turks, also there is Albanians etc... ehe... Ah I also have an interesting link, when the denialists say that the French law has no historical value etc... well here is the principle of the article were the Law based on http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/rapports/r2855.asp they base the conclusions on the permanent people tribunal, and the long debates and why it's finaly necessary to pass a law after so much years of waiting. This article also examine the other recognitions etc... well enough said. [ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: Domino ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairakev Posted June 1, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Domino:Niara, if you are talking about the alleged resolution of the supposed genocide perpetrated by Armenians, there is none, because there was no such passed resolution, Azerbaijan being a newly member, the first thing they did is trying to pass a resolution that will probably never pass.[ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: Domino ]So, you hang on "tete de turc"? These are the sites which make one laugh... it's funny to listen contrarguments based on nothing. Just bla-bla!There is another site someting like :armenian-terror.com or armenianterror.com[ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: naira ][ June 01, 2001: Message edited by: naira ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairakev Posted June 1, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:The author provides documents from various sources, including from some of the letters of Theodore Herzl, which come to indicate that the founders of (Western) Zionism have actively interjected themselves actively in the middle of the Armenian-Turkish tension, and have attempted to use the conflict in the name of persuading Sultan Hamid to grant the Jews sovereignty on the territory of Palestine. It also provides documents of some collusion of some segments of the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire in some local Armenian massacres. Additionally, it sheds light on the (business-economic) benefits that the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire has received/has been offered as a result of the declaration of the Armenian population of the Empire “The Enemy of the Nation” by the Ottoman Government.There was also a turkish think-tank kind of Doctor Proctor, who designed the media and political coverage. He was moslim, but converted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Yeap armenianterror.com but this one is in English. I like this one, I know every documents there, I have read them all. What make me laugh is some of the books in their book section stat that what happened to Armenians was a plan to exterminate them. Do you want some examples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairakev Posted June 1, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Domino:Yeap armenianterror.com but this one is in English. I like this one, I know every documents there, I have read them all. What make me laugh is some of the books in their book section stat that what happened to Armenians was a plan to exterminate them. Do you want some examples Yeah, sure!I won't miss that fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Here is what i found. Ahmet Refik, İki Komite-İki Kıtâl, İstanbul 1919 A work prepared from Refik, during the Turkish after war tribunal, the work like others from him, about how the massacres against Armenians were planned, or how anti-Armenian propaganda's were build up by Ottoman etc... Here is a part about the alleged Armenian revolt, and how they were buil up from this work. « In order to justify this enormous crime the requisite propaganda material was thoroughly prepared in Istanbul. [it included such statements as:] “the Armenians are in league with the enemy. They will launch an uprising in Istanbul, kill off the Ittihadist leaders and will succeed in opening up the straits [to enable the Allied fleets to capture Istanbul].” These vile and malicious incitements [were such, however,that they] could persuade only people who were not even able to feel the pangs of their own hunger. » Here is another part of the same book they present in their book section. « The brigands of the Special Organization perpetrated the worst crimes against the Armenians...The aim of Ittihad was to destroy the Armenians and thereby to do away with the Question of Eastern Provinces. » Another book that they refer is the work by Pierre Loti, Pierre, "Les Massacres d’ Arménie, Paris 1918" when this book talk about the Armenian massacres and how they were destroyed. Pierre Loti was a known Turcophil, there is a part of his work were he talk about the Armenian womens "bouche de velour" etc... massacred etc... I will search in my notes some quotes that I took from him in the past. I am searching another site that I found some days ago, with references were many of them were talking about the extermination, they even used Jean Pierre Allem work, I have read that book some times ago, and the book stat it was a planned extermination. Will post a topic soon about faulst biblographies posted on the net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairakev Posted June 1, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Pierre Loti, Pierre .... "bouche de velour" Armenophobe or turcofil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 He was a Turcophil, and yes anti-minority. He was also a little "fou" I will not tell you his theories etc... he was passing times of dressing like a Turk and believing to be the reincarnation of some Sultan of some such, he was passing times to make trips in Ottoman, and even didn't had much knowledge of the existance of the Armenians. But during the massacres he took conscience of this, and was talking about the forgoten womens perishing etc... About the velours, well I will recheck, I don,t think it was velours, I just got mixed up, my sister was showing me a tissu, and I was pointing him out how it looked like "velours" ehee... Well I guess I wrote that during I was writing ehehe... well it was something like tendre etc.... I do not remember, I posted it in the past on someone forum, but this someone has deleted so many times his forums that I lost it with it. But I have it somewere, well I will post it here when I found it. What I believe is that the fact that Loti "le gas flayé" was talking about it is a proof of the importance of the massacre. Loti the same that was planning to buy 10 Turkish women, some such etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Here is a peinting of him with his Ottoman hat. http://www.allposters.com/images/SHD/S1342.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Some other links, wile you will read, you willo understand how the fact that this guy wrote a book about the Armenian tragedy is a proof alone of the importance of the tragedy. http://www.cerclealgerianiste.asso.fr/cont...eratures310.htm http://www.tahitiweb.com/web/loti/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted June 2, 2001 Report Share Posted June 2, 2001 An example of lie here Naira. "Lord Bryce et Arnold Toynbee, ont avoué qu'il avait été "publié et diffusé en tant que propagande de guerre" ! " This is a lie, Toynbee was charged of propaganda against the Germans not against the Ottoman, the Blue Book was used as propaganda against germans that were letting happen what was happening, but Toynbee and Bryce never said that it was a build up propaganda against Ottoman, they even didn't admited it was a war propaganda. And even in his autobiography Toynbee, 50 years later describe what happened to Armenians as a genocide, an extermination of a people, taking all his first conclusion of the time were he supposedly admited that it was a faulst propaganda. Now why Toynbee will use 50 years later the same conclusion, when he supposedly admited that they were wrong. I never read about such admition, I asked the site to provide me, now for mounths they didn't answered me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairakev Posted June 2, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:The author provides documents from various sources, including from some of the letters of Theodore Herzl, which come to indicate that the founders of (Western) Zionism have actively interjected themselves actively in the middle of the Armenian-Turkish tension, and have attempted to use the conflict in the name of persuading Sultan Hamid to grant the Jews sovereignty on the territory of Palestine. It also provides documents of some collusion of some segments of the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire in some local Armenian massacres. Additionally, it sheds light on the (business-economic) benefits that the Jewish population of the Ottoman Empire has received/has been offered as a result of the declaration of the Armenian population of the Empire “The Enemy of the Nation” by the Ottoman Government.MJ,I met some jewish thinkers here in Paris, who were saying that "jewish armenophobism" (talking about French jews), goes probably before the WWII, wher the French society was highly anti-semitic and these tendencies were highly supported by French armenians.We had a very interesting discussion. I said that armenians, if taken as French nationals, behaving or expressing any anti-semitic sentence, do not actually represent the armenian community. If some leaders of local armenian community were involved in anti-semitic activity, I would have understood, the a reason for tension, and if the majority of armenians were expressed anti-semit, then I could understand the "French jewish armenophobism".He said the same situation was in Turkey, while jews were accused in colaborating with Sultan Hamid and Young Turks. There were some personal innitiatives, but never a general tendency.I couldn't agree. The book of "The Banality of Indifference: Zionism & the Armenian Genocide" of Auron Yair, wasn't published yet.This concidence was pretty surprising for me. The Israeli intellectuals (and Auron Yair among them) are often guests for many debates in France. Not only on anti-semitic issues, but also on French history, about Boulanger, for exemple, about the naissance "of german nationalism", particularly, studies on French influence in german nazism. The announcements of israeli scientists are often "heart-breaking", built in a logic conjuction with all historical movements and tendencies. I could agree, if I didn't see there some subjectivism and uncompleteness of intepretation.I'm waiting for a debate "Turkish armenophobism and jewish influence in it!"That could be an interesting debate, since there some open-minded jewish thinkers as Auron Yair, himself.I've suggested it to a French TV host Thierry Hardisson, who is known for his openness for anti-semitic and zionist debates. I have no news. But it is not something impossible. I asked him to invite Auron Yair. Yair seems to speak perfectly French.So he would be able to participate in the debate with his French oponents.Thierry Hardisson, is one of France most mediatised TV hosts and producers, who stays in shadow, but he has a huge influence on public opinion. His programmes are watched mostly by the whole France and francophonie."Tout le Monde En parle?", "Rive droite Rive Gauche", "Paris Dernier", "On a tout essayé"."Tout le monde en parle" is re-broadcasted through French Satelite TV5 Channel. Each week![ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: naira ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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