Patriarch Mesrob strikes again

[bellthecat]

He really cannot keep his mouth shut, can he?

 

Armenian patriarch rejects so-called genocide

 

Turkish Daily News

19 May, 2001

 

Mesrob II, the Patriarch of the Turkish Armenians, said that terminology should not be used for defining the events which took place in the past between the Turks and the Armenians, stating that he could not say that either a genocide or a massacre took place. "However, I can say that too many painful events occurred. Now there are those who were affected by this and who have to live with the pain and trauma of those events," Mesrob II said. Patriarch

Mesrob II, visited Gaziantep to give a small boat as a present to the inhabitants of the Kasaba village close to Rumkale, who moved to the area as it will not be affected by the rise in the water level before the construction of the Birecik Dam. The Armenian Patriarch asked that the issue not be seen as a matter of hatred and offered the starting of the dialogue process.

[Berj]

You can view this article at http://www.azg.am/index_tr.shtml

 

The paper is online in 4 languages, including Turkish.

***************************************

 

Genocide

YES, 10,000 ARMENIANS WERE SLAUGHTERED

Writes Turkish Milliyet online paper

The head of Turkey’s History Research Institute Yusuf Halachoghli, investigating Ottoman archives, published a book on these days entitled “Armenian deportations and reality”, Turkish Milliyet newspaper’s web site informed on May 18.

 

According to the book’s author, around 10,000 Armenians were really slaughtered, and the others were forces to leave the country. In Halachoghli’s opinion out of deported 438,758 Armenians 382,148 survived. The others died of hunger and illnesses.

 

Of course the presented numbers of the Turk historian are amazing and far from truth. But the fact that the author of the book is Turkish official and published the book with the consent of the state gives us hope that Turks will by and by recognize all the truth.

 

Ermeni Davası

EVET 10.000 ERMENİ KATLEDİLDİ

Türk Tarih Kurumu Başkanı Yusuf Halaçoğlu'nun Osmanlı arşivlerine dayanarak hazırladığı ve bugünlerde yayınlanan "ERMENİ TEHCİRİ VE GERÇEKLER" adlı kitabını dün "Milliyet" gazetesi internet sayfasında "resmen ilk kez kabul ettik" üst başlığıyla tanıttı.

 

Kitabın yazarına göre, yaklaşık 10.000 Ermeniler gerçekten Kıyımlara uğradı, kalanlar ise sürgüne yollandı. Halaçoğlu'na göre, sürgüne yollanan 438 bin 758 kişiden 382 bin 148 kişi sözde hayatta kalmış. Kalanı açlıktan ve hastalıktan ölmüş.

 

Elbette, Türk tarihçinin belirttiği rakamlar komik ve gerçeklerden oldukça uzaktır. Fakat, kitabın yazarının bir Türk resmi yetkili olması ve kitabın Türk devletinin yetkisiyle yayınlanmasının, Türklerin bir gün tüm gerçekleri kabul edeceklerine bizleri umutlandırmaktadır. Özellikle de "Milliyet" gazetesi haber sonrasında "bu haberi arkadaşına gönder" diye not da düşmüştür.

 

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

[ThornyRose]

We don't say "2 ekmekler"...

quote

Kitabın yazarına göre, yaklaşık 10.000 Ermeniler gerçekten Kıyımlara uğradı,

***********

Honestly, though, I don't think it is so new. It's just put on paper. Is it not far from satisfactory? My view is that they will hold on this for long, very long - "hey, we do admit some, but what you are asking is too much!" sort of...

 

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: Thorny Rose ]

[Guest Fadi]

I agree with Filiz, this publication is even worst then Gurun one, that take the 702,000 alleged deported(this number is the number of Muslim from Russian zone relocated in Armenian area passing as Armenian "relocated), at least better then this clame of less then 500,000 deported. The book of Yusuf Halachoghli, is the official Turkish one, claming that 200,000 perished, he even don't gave the 300,000 proposed by some, and even don't gave the last number of Gurun the diplomat of 500,000. It's kind of another Turkish institution that I have read in Turkish news some times ago, that the killing of only 86(if my memory is right) could be proved, Yusuf Halachoghli is on the same league of black humoured bigot.

 

About the 10,000, what he say probably is that they were rebelious fighters that killed hundreds of thousands of Turks, and that they were killed for self defence.

[levonyeshilian]

At least Mesrob can stand silent or can say ''' no comment'''.Maybe someday he'll apologize Turks for a Turkish genocide.

[Guest Fadi]

Levon, I think you are attacking him unfairly, you must understand that he has all the pressure of "self-protection" of the Armenians living in Turkey. He is used, and we know that if he don,t want to end up in prison like others that I will not name, he must act in demand of the Turkish government.

 

Don,t forget that the subventions of the constructions of Armenian churches because of the Earthquake in Turkey happened just rescently. Have he really the choice ? He is trying to appease the government for more subventions etc... and when Journalists by demand of some Turkish politicians ask him to give his comment, and you expect that he answer ? Do he have the choice ? He is just used as an hostage, nothing less.

[Guest Fadi]

Nelson Mandela had more impact in prison, and less outside for his people, when he already acheaved what he wanted. Mesrob here, in jail, we will see Turkish subventions reduced, he forgoten, and Armenians threatned.

 

We can not judge his action, he has don what he thinked the best. Of course I desagree with his action. But we are not in his place, what proves we would do the same in the same circonstances. The recognition of the Armenian genocide rest on the hand of the diaspora, not Armenia not the Turkish Armenians. We being outside of all these threats and manipulations we are the best placed to do everything in order that the genocide is recognised.

[Guest]

Domino

Such a crap if I may !

Nelson Mandela was in jail for 27 years for what he believed in.

 

You can afford to attack the man's dignity by saying he is a hostage - in reality he is balancing the whole of turkey's interest against narrow minded diaporean interest.

 

I agree he is not doing what you wish him to do. Maybe he does see a way to co-exist & live together.

[MJ]

So the way to co-exist is to give a pass to the murderer by claiming that no murder has taken place?

[Guest]

MJ

You are more sophisticated then that...you can do better.

 

His position is one of the most difficult jobs on planet earth.

 

If he believed in taking action against tc government policy he would of done it.

 

If he went to jail to defend the

turkish-armenian claims , what do you think I would do?

 

lighten up a bit pls

[levonyeshilian]

Domino,

Mesrob ,at least, can be like Greek Patriarch.He chooses to stay silent.I don't think he's afraid of any threads.He,and maybe 95 percent Armenians ''''living with Armenian identity'''are living in Istanbul,not little Anatolian towns.

[Guest]

Domino

 

I profoundly disagree with you in relation to the role of diasporean armenians in making the peace between turks & armenians.

 

If left to the likes of you & policies that you formulate ;

I am afraid there is no room for progress - just a tag of war.

[Guest]

Domino

 

Too much dogma , too little imagination.

Your style is to alienating turks , whether you know it or not , that is the effect you have on turks.

 

By alienating the turkish side with your political demands , you are following a pursuit which practicly has zero chance of working.

[Guest Fadi]

You see the point Circassian ? I talk about honesty you answer me with politic.

 

What makes the demand for recognition politic and the denial of it not politic ? When the denial is politic and the acceptance based on an undeniable historical event.

 

Can you answer to this question ? Answer me why the denial is not politic and the recognition is politic.

[bellthecat]

I think that is the most important question. Why does he not say something like "I will only comment of religious matters", if he really thinks only historians can comment on Armenian genocide matters?

I have since seen a report on the background to the event where he made his comments. (I was actually intending to visit Rumkale last summer, but lots of journalists in the area were being arrested over the reporting of the the Birecik Dam, and I decided it was not safe to go).

Here is the report:


ISTANBUL, 18 May 2001 ("Lraper" Church Bulletin) --

PATRIARCH VISITS ANCIENT SPIRITUAL CENTRE IN HROMCLA

His Beatitude Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul and All Turkey, paid a
second visit to Rumkale, where a boat donated by the Patriarchate to
the village of Kasaba was inaugurated.

Last July, the Patriarch had led an expedition to the region to
discover the location of the ancient castle of Rumkale (Hromcla or
Hromgla), on the very spot where the river Euphrates and Merzimen
meet. It is located about an hour's drive north of the city of
Gaziantep (Aintab). The purpose of last year's visit was to see
whether Hromcla would be submerged in the Birecik Dam, which was being
built at the time and has since been completed (*). While visiting
the area, the Patriarch noticed that children were crossing the
Merzimen River on dangerous makeshift rafts -- large pieces of wood
laid on rubber automobile tires. He decided to give the chieftainship
(mukhtariyet) of the Kasaba village a boat for safer crossing across
the river.

The Patriarchate purchased a second-hand boat in good condition from
the seaside village of Arsuz, near Iskenderun (Alexandrette), in the
province of Hatay (Antioch). It was then checked for safety,
re-painted and renamed "Sevgi" ("love" in Turkish), and then sent to
the Kasaba village on May 15.

Patriarch Mesrob flew to Gaziantep on May 17, accompanied by the
Revd. Archpriest Muron Ayvazyan (Patriarchal Religious Council
member), Mr. Vazgen Barin (Deputy Mayor of the Sisli District of
Istanbul) and Sub-deacon Vagarsag Seropyan ("Lraper" staff member). At
the airport, Mr Shemseddin Can Kahya, Director of the Tourism Bureau
of Gaziantep, and the executive members of the local Lions Club and
representatives of tourist agencies greeted the Armenian Church
delegation.

The group then set off towards Hromcla by a bus, provided by the Arsan
travel agency in Gaziantep.

About 30 kilometres later, the bus stopped at the centre square of the
Yavuzeli County, where the mayor of Yavuzeli, Mr Ali Sakar, greeted
His Beatitude with flowers and accompanied them on the journey ahead.

The Patriarch and his entourage arrived at the Kasaba Village
(formerly called Kalekoy) and were greeted at the village entrance by
the village Chief (the Mukhtar), the Imam and the members of the
Elders' Council. Many villagers, men and women, came forward to greet
the Patriarch and wish him welcome.

A white pavilion tent was prepared in the village square for the
reception, where the guests were offered cold "taan" (yoghurt drink,
ayran) and local pistachios.

The Mukhtar, Mr Mahmut Yazgan, formally greeted all the guests, wished
them welcome to Kasaba and Rumkale, and recounted the hardships that
the villagers were facing after the rising waters of the Birecik Dam
had swallowed up, among others, the old Kasaba village as well. Now
they had to build everything anew. They needed running water, new
electric power lines, a sewage system, and similar utilities. Mr
Yazgan thanked His Beatitude for making the effort to visit the site,
which will help highlight the needs of the village.

The Mayor of Yavuzeli, Mr Ali Sakar, followed with his short welcome
speech and expressed hope that Rumkale would receive the attention it
deserves following His Beatitude's visits.

In his remarks, Patriarch Mesrob greeted the people with the Lord's
peace and said that he is touched by the warm hospitality that he has
received for the second time in the Kasaba village.

He explained that purpose of his second visit was to deliver the boat
to the village for safer access to the other bank of the Merzimen
Spring and the River Euphrates.

Patriarch Mesrob said he senses a special feeling at this site, the
moral presence of the great Saint Nerses the Graceful, who served the
Armenian people as Patriarch from his headquarters in Hromcla (**) in
the 12th century. "He was a great man of God, with strong faith and
deep love. Saint Nersess had a special gift for reconciling and peace
making between different peoples. It is his moral presence, and also
the place where his remains were committed, which make this site holy
and special for pilgrims," added the Patriarchate.

In its three-thousand year history, Hromcla had been ruled by the
Assyrians, the Armenians, the Romans, the Parthians, the Byzantines,
the Arabs, the Crusaders, the Memlukes, the Seljuks and the
Turks. However, the most famous person whose name is associated with
Hromcla is Saint Nersess. "The literature that he created, his poems,
hymns, epistles and other works have been widely circulated to this
day, not only in Armenian, but also in many foreign
languages. Anatolia and Thrace are full of places of special interest
for the believers, tourists, students of history and culture, and
recreationists. However, it is important how people present these
sites to the visitors and pilgrims. The number one prerequisite is the
hospitality, and the Kasaba village is blessed with that gift," said
the Patriarch.

He then wished them well and success in their endeavours to rebuild
their village and invoked God's blessings upon them. His Beatitude
also prayed for the repose of the souls of the 34 passengers who had
lost their lives in a tragic plane crash the day before in Malatya.


Inauguration of Sevgi

Immediately afterwards, the villagers and the guests, headed by the
Patriarch, gathered on the northern bank of the Merzimen Spring where
an inauguration ceremony was held. The "Sevgi" was lowered into the
water, a 12-passenger boat, painted in dazzling white, with an
adequate engine and propeller. The villagers were thankful for the
donation of the Patriarchate.

The Patriarch wished them well and safety, and embarked the boat along
with the members of his delegation, the Kasaba Mukhtar, and the Mayor
of Yavuzeli. Three smaller boats were brought from nearby villages on
the Euphrates to carry the rest of the visitors.

Half an hour later, lunch was served on the southern bank of the
Merzimen, amidst a beautiful orchard of lovely pomegranate and tall
white-berry trees. Oriental rugs covered the picnic area, on which
all guests lined up cross-legged to enjoy the local dishes and
khorovadz (kebab) that the villagers had prepared.

At around 14:00 hours, the group began a climb up the Hromcla mound,
approaching the forts via the western gate on which Armenian and
Arabic scripts were barely noticeable. The Classical Armenian text
began, "By the mercy of God... John...," but the rest was illegible.

A steep climb took the visitors to the top of the mound where the
ruins of an Armenian Church remained, built on the tomb of Saint
Nersess the Graceful. The Patriarch discussed the current condition of
the ruins with the Tourism Bureau chief and suggested that a
scientific excavation was necessary in order to clear the narthex of
the ancient church of the rubble that had fallen in. Another Armenian
inscription was spotted on the southern wall of the bema, which was
clearly dated 1600.

The most moving moment of the visit was marked by the Patriarch's
singing of a hymn in Classical Armenian, written by St Nersess in
Hromcla: "Love is your name Jesus! Touch with your love my heart,
which has become like stone. Because of your sorrow and mercy, grant
newness to my life."

Under the scorching sun, a mild breeze came to cool the faces of all
present who listened to the ancient hymn in profound awe.

Descending towards the inner plain opposite the Eastern gate of
Hromcla, the pilgrims faced a pleasant surprise. The Arsan Travel
Agency and the Tugcan Hotel in Gaziantep had joined efforts to hold a
reception, offering some eighty people champagne, refreshments,
seasonal fruits and mixed roasted nuts. Ms Ayse Nur Arun, the
president of the Arsan Travel Agency, presented the Patriarch with a
beautiful plaque ornate with mother-of-pearl.

The Patriarch left Hromcla through the Eastern gate, and made a
45-minute tour of nearby villages, which had succumbed to the waters
of the Birecik Dam on the banks of the River Euphrates.

Returning to Kasaba village, he presented the village school with 120
children's books, a complete set of encyclopaedia and 30 schoolbags,
which were gratefully received. He then said farewell to the Village
Mukhtar, the Yavuzeli Mayor and the villagers and promised to visit
them again.

His Beatitude was then escorted to the Gaziantep airport and arrived
at the VIP lounge, half an hour before the 19:30 flight back to
Istanbul. Before he left for the plane, the Patriarch commended the
Arsan travel agency for their excellent organization skills.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Domino:
You see the point Circassian ? I talk about honesty you answer me with politic.

What makes the demand for recognition politic and the denial of it not politic ? When the denial is politic and the acceptance based on an undeniable historical event.

Can you answer to this question ? Answer me why the denial is not politic and the recognition is politic.

---

Because in order to deny one must be innocent & equally , in order to recognise one must be proven guilty.

I welcome a fully blown investigation which would satisfy all parties concerned .

I would be extra carefull as to make sure you are not on the investigation board or team as we don't really need people like yourself to stall the process.


If you like stalling - may I suggest a nearest bridge club.


This is a delicate subject & you do not seem to understand the implications of what you are saying most of the time.

It might be a good doctorate subject for you & I hope your works pay of for your professional career.

[Guest Fadi]

If there is peace without understanding, then I will call that peace a Big Irony copyrighted Circassian.

 

If Turkey can not face it's past and still continue to bash on the worst moment of Armenian history. It's more likly that Turkey is not interested to peace. After who refused Armenian aid during the Earthquake ? Who is still blocking Armenia ? Who is still contying in the durty investment to deny a genocide ?

 

Peace is not something that is achieved by ignoring and forgeting everything like a total amnesia, and by threats, peace is only acheavable by a mitual understanding. Like Taner Akçam said in the past, the first step must be taken by the Turks. First you accept the genocide then I'll believe you.

 

Untill you will continue of changing the subject everytime I'll point you evidences, and repeat the same thing again and again, saying there is no evidences, when I responce I post evidences, and continue again to change the subject. Then I could add that peace can not be achieved without honesty. You ask evidences I ask honesty, but for you it seam that honesty is the most difficult thing to possess.

[Guest Fadi]

Get real Circassian your present statment is just a reflect of your ignorence(or blind believes).

 

You still continue after months without having moved a single inch of your dream world.

 

The point here is that the guilty have been judged guilty, the accusation is founded. When Tehlirian pout a ball in the head of Talaat, he supposed that Talaat was the guilty one, his supposition was not based on an Armenian myth, but the Turkish after war tribunal, he knew that Talaat was the responsable by reading it from Turkish newspapers.

 

Newspapers of this kind.

 

"SABAH" Nov. 28, 1918

 

"There is no way to renounce the reality we face today, a reality of endless misery and wretchedness. The government of Said Halim and Talaat nursed in their accursed heart a horrible plan, using the excuse of war to deport the Christians, and especially the Armenians, from one province into another, to the Arabian desert and in the course of deportation with unspeakable, cannibalistic methods not even known in the middle ages or in the centuries that followed, murdered not only grown-up men or boys of tender yearsm but also infants, women, old men-to finally destroy and extinguish the Armenian race....Talaat Bey, Minister of the interior, gives orders and instructions from the Center, organizes gangs and sends them to the provinces.The ittihad Center sends its members like Dr. Nazim and Shakir to Erzurum, Trebizond and other places as extraordinary plenitotentiaries to confer with Hasan Tahsim and Jemal Azmi. As a result- outrages, methodically planned atrocities and massacres conducted with the assistance of lawlewss elements and criminals specially released from jail for the purpose."

 

 

You absolutly know that I posted other nespapers of this kind in the past. You say a person must be seen as not guilty before being proven guilty. Well now I ask for honesty. You are not honest. You in one of your post in the past admited that 1600 persons have been punished for what they have don to the Armenians, what you forgot to mention was that they were officials, members of the special organisation, Generals, head of the government etc...

 

Have they not been judged and proved guilty by a Turkish tribunal ? You say they must be proved guilty no ? Have they not been proved guilty ?

 

Is Halil confession in his own memoire not enough ? When he stat that hetried to exterminate the Armenians to the last individual is not enought ? Now go and search in German archives a such a direct memoire, of a General of the importance of Halil, and find a specification of one of those generals stating that they tried to wipe out the Jews to the last individual.

 

You still are not honest, and probably you are not able to be honest, I ask honesty and you styll behave hypocriticaly.

 

What investigation you ask ? WHAT KIND ? Now go ask the Jews to make an investigation in order to say that the Holocaust existed. Why Armenians have to provide sources more then any body else ? Can you ask this question ? The Turkish military after war tribunal has convinced so many peoples last more then a year, when the Nuremberg tribunal was fast and convinced around 40 NAZI criminals, and has made possible by the allies. Now I ask you what makes the Nuremberg tribunal more credible ? What makes a tribunal conducted by the allies more credible then a tribunal conducted by the same Juridic system and the same Penal codes, of the same structure that some months before were conducting the genocide ? What makes them less credible ?

 

When the tribunal provided references about the injection of morphins to childrens, the special organisation recieving orders etc... etc... etc...

 

You do not ask for proves, you ask for the impossible you ask things that are impossible even in a case of a modern first degree murder, your logic would have relieced Timoty Migbee( sorry for the deformation of the name).

 

In the case of the Armenians, you have the arm of the crime, you have the reasons of the crime, you have the direct premeditation, you have the admitions from peoples such as General Halil, you have a tribunal judging them, you have childrens killed by injecting them with morphins by orders, you have an entire population sent in the desert, by knowing that they will die.

 

You have the allies, even members of the parlement stating that this extermination was planned.

 

So in no way you will have any satisfaction, you are not honest. This is it...

[TigrannesIII]

and what is that??? there is no other side! the truth is not divisible by two! look at hilmar kaiser! he grew up in a turkish neighborhood in germany, did some research with the intent of smashing the Armenians, and what happened?!?!? he got kicked out of the Ottoman archives when he realized what really happened!

there is absolutely no other side to the complete destruction of the Anatolian Armenian population. There was no 'civil war'. The area was plenty of Armenian at the time, a definite Armenian majority. Go look at the real number. All the treaties of the late 1800's guaranteed Armenian equal rights in the '6 eastern provinces where Armenians formed the majority'.

I am sick of you insulting my people's suffering. For someone who demonstrates the ability to form 'big words' and at least appear intelligent, perhaps you should start to actually think. All you do is point the finger at Armenians, when you should really be taking a look in the mirror? Why do all countries of the world hate Turkey so much? What great wrong could the turks have done to all those people if the turks were in the right? If you can't get past simple reality then you are a brainwashed fool and nothing more.

And if you wanna talk up about the 'radical brain-washed powerful Armenian Diaspora', we can talk about that, too. You'll find that your propaganda there, too, holds little water.

[Garo]

Rich

it seems you're turning into personal insults. Don't cross the line. Now you have your 1st warning.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TigrannesIII:


and what is that??? there is no other side! the truth is not divisible by two! look at hilmar kaiser! he grew up in a turkish neighborhood in germany, did some research with the intent of smashing the Armenians, and what happened?!?!? he got kicked out of the Ottoman archives when he realized what really happened!

there is absolutely no other side to the complete destruction of the Anatolian Armenian population. There was no 'civil war'. The area was plenty of Armenian at the time, a definite Armenian majority. Go look at the real number. All the treaties of the late 1800's guaranteed Armenian equal rights in the '6 eastern provinces where Armenians formed the majority'.

I am sick of you insulting my people's suffering. For someone who demonstrates the ability to form 'big words' and at least appear intelligent, perhaps you should start to actually think. All you do is point the finger at Armenians, when you should really be taking a look in the mirror? Why do all countries of the world hate Turkey so much? What great wrong could the turks have done to all those people if the turks were in the right? If you can't get past simple reality then you are a brainwashed fool and nothing more.

And if you wanna talk up about the 'radical brain-washed powerful Armenian Diaspora', we can talk about that, too. You'll find that your propaganda there, too, holds little water.

---

A bit selfish as usual.

Do you realize that you are behaving like an enemy would & then you are expecting symphaty & understanding like a friend would ?

Do you live in the real world by any chance ?

[ThornyRose]

I felt I had to comment...

Rich, there are few people in the world who know what went on. Prejudice needs no explanation, and Turks do get that. It is the same prejudice and immaturity that sentences the Muslims of the world with the label of butchers. It is the same immaturity that labeled Africans, "inferior." The difference is that the Turk lived through an age of splendour and later fell into decadence - and hence the trauma in Europe. My point is, just as Armenian Americans (yes, I said that) complain about most Americans' not even knowing who or what an Armenian is, there are fewer countries that "hate Turks for what they did." See through it.

As for Circassian, all I've seen you do here is use flippant comments and "no, we will not have any of it" while trying to downplay the significance of what is posted. I presume you are my elder and I would expect you to behave accordingly, considering the nature of the issue and how serious it is.

Enough of your these once every sentence:

Domino is not making political demands on you, though I agree that many Armenians can be radical - "return of Western Armenia, blah blah blah" when, at best, return of individual property is possible - but this is not the case with Domino, is it? He is merely trying to point out the difference.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
I felt I had to comment...
As for Circassian, all I've seen you do here is use flippant comments and "no, we will not have any of it" while trying to downplay the significance of what is posted. I presume you are my elder and I would expect you to behave accordingly, considering the nature of the issue and how serious it is.
Enough of your these once every sentence:
Domino is not making political demands on you, though I agree that many Armenians can be radical - "return of Western Armenia, blah blah blah" when, at best, return of individual property is possible - but this is not the case with Domino, is it? He is merely trying to point out the difference.

---

Thorny
you are naive & you DO trust diasporean armenians.

I am not so naive , I do not trust diasporean armenians.

as to the flippant remarks you are refferring to ;
You obviously are bit clueless in relation to "Big Picture".

Downplaying the Human aspect of genocide & at every point underlying the pseduo-christian aspect of the losses...

Not a bit of hope in playing catch 22 in caucasus & anatolia once again.

Yes you are right I am your Tamade.

[TigrannesIII]

[ May 24, 2001: Message edited by: TigrannesIII ]

[ThornyRose]

Who to trust and who not to... Are you generalizing? Diasporan Armenians and all? This being the case, why do you care for dialogue with Diasporan Armenians, then? Surely you are not thinking of converting them as they nurture evil plans to convert you?

I do, however, seem to have missed a couple of explanations of yours; namely, those pertaining to your "more complex nature" and your wife's religion. Where can I find them? By asking for them, am I taking it a stretch too far? Or am I able to point out the difference between trusting an individual, based on observations, and a whole group, based on generalizations, and where the individual's responsibility lies in all of this?

Naive? Perhaps. But not stupid to be taken in by anyone, I can tell you that.

I don't see anything in the "big picture" you claim to be presenting - just the same thing, evrile çevrile... Most of it is pseudo-slogans, "we don't do this," "this is against our rules of conduct," "your style doesn't appease my tastes," etc.

Furthermore, I am not the one to be accused of being naive when I/we have been "advised" to stand up and say whatever and perhaps go to jail for it.