Should McCarthy be the next Turkish president ?

[Guest Fadi]

He is beating Ismet Inonu works conserning the Armenians.

 

 

After his long text in Turkish newspapers, about how Armenians exterminated Muslims, and how Armenians were happily relocated. And more after his comment about Karabagh, like a politician do, he is still in conferences in Turkey.

 

Well lets give some informations to some about McCarthy. McCarthy is the Flaurisson(The starter of scientific denialism of the Holocaust) of the Holocaust. He work on the Ottoman history departement(founded and partly financed by Turkey), he also has recieved grants from ITS and ARIT(Middle East Studies Association Bulletins, Directory of American Scholars, and the Ottoman Studies Directory) both grants from Turkish associations financed by the Turkish government, and serving for the denial of the Armenian genocide.

 

We should also remark his Honoris Causa Doctorat at Bosphorus University in Turkey, for what he don for Turkey, Bosphorus University is one of the main place were anti-Armenian propaganda are produced.

 

More to this, we shall also tell the McCarthy published a great book by the demand of ATAA titled "Turks and Armenians" but contrary to the title the book is all about the denial of the Armenian genocide, and showing how Armenians are agressors and Turks the victimes etc... for any interested to buy this ATAA publication(yes ATAA publication ) well just email ataa and say you are Armenian, and you may have a free copy

 

This is not all, this McCarthy stated on an ATAA conference that him, Shaw and other scholars were working to correct Turkish republic image, this was even published, ATA-USA, Fall 1995 - Winter 1996, on page 70 they talk about McCarthy and what he said during the conference. that "he, Dr. Lowry, Professor Stanford Shaw, and many others have been working to correct the image of Turkey end Turkish History in the United State."

 

In a term rewrite history, and this is exacly his words "We're trying to rewrite the history" Said to a women in the audience during the question period at the History Lecture in Ankara in 1990

 

Now this is the News topic, well I may be out of the track, but I needed to talk about McCarthy background in order to post the news in question.

 

Well here it is, now McCarthy became a real politician LOL.

 

"JUSTIN MACCARTHY: TURKEY SHOULD USE PROPAGANDA AGAINST ARMENIAN

ALLEGATIONS

 

Professor Justin MacCarthy from the U.S Louisville University said on

Monday that Turks had not committed genocide against the Armenians

and Turkey should use comprehensive propaganda to counter the

Armenian allegations.

 

Speaking at a conference organized by the Rotary 2420th District

Governorship at Cemal Resit Rey Concert Salon in Istanbul, MacCarthy

said the French parliament's approval of the Armenian genocide

allegations and initiatives in the American Congress to get the

claims accepted were wrong.

 

Stressing that the Armenians' accusations that Turkey had committed

genocide were illogical, MacCarthy said Turkey was one of the most

important countries in the world and a model country in its region.

 

He also emphasized that the resolution taken by several countries'

parliaments concerning the Armenian genocide claims were politically

motivated.

 

Drawing attention to the fact that the Christian missionary and

British Propaganda Office played very important roles in spreading

these allegations during World War I, MacCarthy said similar

propaganda was continuing today.

 

"In order to prevent this incorrect propaganda Turkey should open the

Ottoman archives," he said.

 

He also noted that brochures, handouts and books should be prepared

that explain that Turkey did not commit genocide against any nation

and also the Ottomans' religious tolerance with other nations during

its rule.

 

"Although there are 2,000 brochures with the Armenian's claims, in

the American teachers' hands they can teach two million children,

while there are no documents or brochures concerning Turkey's view,"

he said.

 

Emphasizing that not only should the state's propaganda be

influential and convincing, MacCarthy said other civil organizations

should take part in the promotional work.

 

Ankara - Turkish Daily News"

 

[ June 03, 2001: Message edited by: Domino ]

[nairakev]

It is a logic reaction from a denialist country. There are always "sided dogs" who got their plate with turkish "Pedigree Pal".

McCarthy is a pure fiction. He will be blown out the day United Nations will recognise the Armenian Genocide.

 

Roman Pope did recognise, which has huge influence in Europe, along with France, Russia, Greece, Italy, belgium, Sweden, Argentina, Armenia, Bulgaria, European Parliament.

 

This is a huge achivement. It cannot be ignore by serious researchers.

 

Next step : UN, US, UK, Germany, China, Japan and Israel.

The pressure should be put on Israel as well. israel is Turkey's main ally after the US in Mid East region.

 

However armenian activists should not stop telling our story to non-Armenians. The battle is severe. We do not have to be relaxed until the Turkey comes to drop its denialist position, after all.

Domino, Bravo!

I try to keep an eye on your posts.

[Guest Fadi]

Clarification. (Middle East Studies Association Bulletins, Directory of American Scholars, and the Ottoman Studies Directory) When I wrote this I didn,t mean this is what ARIT mean but were the information come from.

 

Naira you are right, but still for ignorents of the Subject, when they see McCarthy with the title Ph.D they say he must be right. And it's idiot like him that are kipping the Turks in an eternal amnesia. Do you think not ?

 

Accualy, you can ask me any information about non-Turkish denialist, I studied the most known of them, be French, English etc...

 

Do you know the site "Amis de la Turquie" ? It's made by a french married with a Turk, the Irony is that in his personal information's his born in 24 April. How Ironic it is.

[Guest Fadi]

Ah forgot also.

 

"Like other men and women, historians have political goals and ideologies, but a true historian acknowledges his errors when the facts do not support his belief. The nationalist apologist never does so. If the facts do not fit his theories the nationalist ignores those facts and looks for other ways to make his case. True historians can make intellectual mistakes. Nationalist apologists commit intellectual crimes."

 

The author of this wonderfull quote is nobody less then McCarthy. Read, reread and have fun. "but a true historian acknowledges his errors when the facts do not support his belief." Then shall I conclude that he is not a true historian ? Ehe...

[nairakev]

Amie de la turqie? No, I never heard of it.
Who are the French specialits in the denialist "ligue?"

[Guest Fadi]

Here it is, Les Amoureax de la Turquie, in the spposed club called les Amis de la Turquie.

http://www.multimania.com/rbeaufor/

 

The site has been censured by Yahoo France, because of it's denial of the Armenian genocide. Since then they took away the direct link to the Armenian genocide (since the French government recognition). Yahoo France gave also many problems to other French denialist sites, like tetedeturc.com they are now not found in the search engin of Yahoo France.

 

If you find any denialist site from Yahoo France you report it to them, and ask to others to write then, Bye...bye...

 

Now for the French specialists. Well now like you suspect, they will have many problems with the French law, they have nothing to compare with American ones.

 

But lets give somme names

 

Gilles Veinstein is the head of the denialist as the Head of the Ottoman chair of history. Robert Mantran, works that collect Turkish scolars and publish them. And also Maxime Rodinson(not denialist to 100 %, just protecting his colleague and the subventions).

 

But the two base their works on Veinstein. But after the recognition of the genocide, I think these people will have many difficulties.

[THOTH]

Domino - as usual you impress. Keep up the most excellent work. With those such as you around the McCarthy's and others of his ilk have no chance (then again perhaps I am giving too much credit to the intelligence/knowledge of the average bloke...). (and speaking of...there is another non-Turkish Genocide denialist (that we both know so well) who is also married to a Turk who is again active on the forums...yes. I have seen him [you know where] and am debating whether to join the [anticipated] fray....)

 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Domino I really must tell you - he has been doing a very comendable job in defeating the lies of the denialists. He has amassed quite a collection of documentary evidence and has put it to good effect. He deserves all of our gratitude for his diligent efforts.

[bellthecat]

ARIT is the "American Research Institute in Turkey". They are based in Ankara, I think.

[Guest Fadi]

Yes this is the case, it was first found as a branch of the Ataturk history "compagny" as a propaganda structure to finance American "searchers" it is the right hand of the financing program of the Ottoman chair of history particullary the grants for the historians.

 

Steve are you not surprised McCarthy implications in politic ? This guy is destroying any credibility left to him. What he is trying to do ? Is he preparing what Shaw announced about an alleged archive oppening ? It seem to me that he will head a new strategy, since Shaw weeks ago attacked Bertkay statment about archive closure, by stating that new documents are digitalized, and even stating that the Turkish military after war tribunal archives are been translated in English. Now you know like me that, that is impossible since the tribunal stat that Armenians were been exterminated by orders, and that there was no crime by Armenians that could be called revolts. So it is impossible that they reliece such documents. It mean that they are forging finnaly new ones.

 

McCarthy is preparing for a new job with Shaw. And it consern alleged archive relieces, and McCarthy is just playing the Hypocrite by saying that archives should be openned, when he know what is comming, he is just playing the ignorent.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by THOTH:
Domino - as usual you impress. Keep up the most excellent work. With those such as you around the McCarthy's and others of his ilk have no chance (then again perhaps I am giving too much credit to the intelligence/knowledge of the average bloke...). (and speaking of...there is another non-Turkish Genocide denialist (that we both know so well) who is also married to a Turk who is again active on the forums...yes. I have seen him [you know where] and am debating whether to join the [anticipated] fray....)

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Domino I really must tell you - he has been doing a very comendable job in defeating the lies of the denialists. He has amassed quite a collection of documentary evidence and has put it to good effect. He deserves all of our gratitude for his diligent efforts.

---

No Comment.

[THOTH]

Circassian - yea - I understand your "no comment" - and perhaps it is best for you. I find it funny/odd that for someone whose family has experienced much the same sort of tragedy as the Armenians have (basically all of us have experiences such as your families...and some with even more gruesome tales) that you have nothing in your heart for sympathy or support for the recognition the Armenians are attempting. That you do not bespeaks to your level of indoctrination - both intellectually and reaching down to blacken your heart. That you have opposed Domino's very even handed and factual presentations with such vigor is evidence of this. You seem to never miss an oppurtunity to diss the rightful and fully justifiable/suppportable Armenian position. And that is just too bad for you. How silly you will look one day (and think of how we percieve you...an educated guy, with similar family experiences...yet he cannot step out of his Turkish blinded vision to understand and see that the Armenians of Anatolia are no more - and it is not they who are responsible for such...can't you see this? Why so defensive? Whay cannot Turks (of past) ever do no wrong?) etc

[bellthecat]

Do you know anything about similar people in the Netherlands / Holland. I met two people in the ruins of old Van, a few years ago. They were university professors in some dept of middle eastern studies in Holland, and were husband and wife, he was Dutch, she was German. They were in their 50s.

They were on a visit arranged by the Turkish state, and were very vociferous genocide deniers. Aparently that's why they were invited to Turkey. When I pointed out that they were walking towards the ruins of an Armenian church they literally averted their eyes and walked away from it in the opposite direction!

Unfortunately I cannot remember their names.

Steve

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by THOTH:
Circassian - yea - I understand your "no comment" - and perhaps it is best for you. I find it funny/odd that for someone whose family has experienced much the same sort of tragedy as the Armenians have (basically all of us have experiences such as your families...and some with even more gruesome tales) that you have nothing in your heart for sympathy or support for the recognition the Armenians are attempting. That you do not bespeaks to your level of indoctrination - both intellectually and reaching down to blacken your heart. That you have opposed Domino's very even handed and factual presentations with such vigor is evidence of this. You seem to never miss an oppurtunity to diss the rightful and fully justifiable/suppportable Armenian position. And that is just too bad for you. How silly you will look one day (and think of how we percieve you...an educated guy, with similar family experiences...yet he cannot step out of his Turkish blinded vision to understand and see that the Armenians of Anatolia are no more - and it is not they who are responsible for such...can't you see this? Why so defensive? Whay cannot Turks (of past) ever do no wrong?) etc

---

Turks do/did lots of things wrong , including massacering the innocent & killing the bystander as well ; just like the other nations which we both know who but don't need to mention it here.

My heart is as white as it gets , I am not anti armenian , I believe in your right to exist just as much as the turk does.

I also extended my deepest sorrows to any one who lost a member of their family , thank you for mentioning the fact that we do have the same/similar experiences.

You call it tomato
I call it tomatoe

What I will not do is to condemn the people who housed me , fed me & gave me a safe place to grow up.
Not without an unrefutable evidence from TC government itself.

However hard for you to understand it is , that I have choose to put my trust in TC as you succintly put as an"educated guy" .

I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed.

I regret to inform you that I also know that this really makes you distrust me & disagree with my stand.

Fortunately that is not due to my indoctrination but yours.
If you weren't contidition to
a) distrust every turk
distrust everybody else who disagree with you on this issue of armenian genocide.

- You would then see by declaring genocide without central & authorititive verification of your claims only forces people like me to where I am at the moment i.e desperately trying to keep hard line greywolves at bay while trying to engage with sometimes viciously hostile , other times as sweet as honey and rarely politically agitatitive(see Domino) diasporean armenians.

I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity.

This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's
suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general.


So if you want all the people to follow your higher ideal for humanity then make sure your strategy does not use any turk as escape goat.

I rather look silly then be considered as a betrayer of turkish nation and nobody is forcing me to say that.

I truely believe that you are out to get me & my family & you are just waiting for conditions to be "Right".

I don't think turkey should open up the pondora's box implementing sevres , you probably believe the sevres treaty to be fair & just in it's contents.

In reality if implemented , it would make you my new landlord.

Since when armenians controlled the eastern anatolia & made it theirs ?

Circassians have always travelled to anatolia on horse back , nobody ever told me that you guys owned all of eastern anatolia.

Sure there were lots of armenian villages & lots of you always have lived amongs turks in the cities but since when you have ever took eastern anatolia from the turk in a military battle ?

So you can see i have lots to say about lots of things and none of which is anything fun to read for you.

I am also sick of ignorant europeans/americans who have never heard of what happened to my people yet they are accusing me & my family personally of killing the armenian race.

Largely thanks to people like you who have been indoctrinated to believe "whatever" the cost in terms of personal slandering & indivisual accountability are , it's worth it because the receipient is turk.

[Guest Fadi]

I don't know Steve. Do you know the university were they come from ? Its nothing surprising what you saw. Can you give me the date when you saw them etc... ? Could it be during the preparation of the book of Eric Feigl ? By demand of the Turkish government ? As much as I know he visited also Van I think, but he is not a historian etc... but a film producer..

 

If you have similair informations of this kind, it's exacly what I am searching, I am making a list of the deniars, with the subventions they got etc...

 

Thanks TOTH. Ah and don't waste your time with Circassian. This guy has a patological problem, it's not a personal attack I am making to him, but it's true after months for obdervation on him. You will have no result with him, this guy is a religious fanatic that judge things on his believes and believe that the West is the devil, and that Armenians are all treachrous peoples, practicing on an international conspiration against Turkey.

 

His logic would deny the Holocaust, expecting to find things after 85 years of closed Ottoman archives that were not found in Germany documents just after the capture and the Nuremberg tribunal. Trying to reasonate the walls will reasonate, still him, still will be the fascist greywolf Armenian-hater. I just still wonder what face he has to post on an Armenian forum, with all the believes that he has about the Armenians. But he think he has the truth, and the the Holocaust and Genocide study associations are just unworthy unscolarised peoples. Since in order to deny the Armenian genocide, there is some caracteristics.

 

1- Ignorance.

2- Hate against Armenians

3- Racism

4- Arrogance to believe to know the subject more then the specialists.

 

There is also power, prestige and money, but these are for professional deniers, Circassian is just someone that is an Armenian hater that hide this hate by accusing the Armenians of what he is.

 

Nothing more or less.

[Guest Fadi]

And more do not confront him with facts, since he will change always the subject. Since his believes are based on hates, and what he can believe, and not on references and a racional approch.

[Guest]

No comment

[THOTH]

Circassian - this post does more to illustrate your biases then make any comment on my (suposed) ones. First of all I have been to Turkey and have known (and been friends with) Turks all of my life. My sister's best friend for most of her life was Turkish - my family had no antio-Turkish thing going on - ever. I have no ill feeling toward the Turkish people...it is you who seem overly defensive concerning these issues and become defensive at any hint of critique.

 

It is possible to love and care for your country and also be critical of aspects of it, its people, and of its past. I can certainly do this with the USA and the actions of some people here (and Armenian/Armenians). But you, and a very many Turks cannot do so (at least to outsiders...the wall is up...the Turks have been wronged and never the other way around). The Genocide of Armenians is (proven and accepted) fact. Your not accepting it means nothing (sorry). My saying this and attempting to achieve recognition of this (by Turks and others) is in no way an attempt to put down the Turks. In fact I wish your people the very best...but your govenment and its policies are another matter.

 

You are attempting to twist the argument - in fact the non-recognition of the Genocide is what is anti-human. It is precisely my concern for (not just my people, but) humanity and hopefully perhaps avoiding such behavior in the future - by not letting it go unrecognized - that I and most other Armenians (I think) fight so hard on this issue. That you utterly fail to understand this is obvious.

 

Like some other Turks I have come accross you begin to attempt to speak for me and other Armenians - but you have so missed the point that you look very silly/sad. You are so worried about "betraying" your nation that you cannot step back and really see what it is we are saying. I for one do not advocate taking back of lands or any such thing - and neither have most Armenians - pretty much ever (in recent times including during WWI).

 

The treaty of Sevres is basically moot...not that I don't think Turkey/Ottoman Empire - as an instigator/aggressor in WWI and ultimatly a loser did not deserve punishment for such (and for proving utter failure to govern its own people - after al basically all non-Muslim minorites were exterminated or driven out)...but due to Ataturk and his (brilliant) manuverings you were able to go unpunished as a nation..and have been able to more or less successfully avoid coming to terms with the crimes of the period. But this is really too bad for you - because outsiders (at least, and even some Turks - whose numbers are growing) can see what it has done to your society (corrupting the political leadership and media) and phyche (read Ackam for sopme insight on this). And now the Kurds have been suffering due to such attitudes.

 

Ultimatly recognizing the Genocide and coming to terms with it (and seperating yourself from the continued wartime Ottoman/CUP [false] propaganda of WWI) will do Turks as much good (if not even more) than it will for Armenians. So many of your points in this post of yours are just incredibly silly and revealing of your enourmous blind spots. I have not been indoctrinated my friend - in no manner have I been - it is clearly you who have suffered such I am sorry to say.

 

Your various accusations do not pertain to me, nor to most Armenians. Your stereotyping of Armenians because of the few extereme few would belike me branding all Turks as Pope killers because Mehmet Ali Acka was a Turk. So please, pay attention to what we are saying...and get off your preconcieved story line which has very little real merit.

 

I can see you are an educated guy - and have made some nice points concerning the Circassian situation and the Russians etc. But how can you expect any sympathy from Armenians when you won't give us the time of day - you obviously don't really listen to what we are saying....

 

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by circassian:

 

Turks do/did lots of things wrong , including massacering the innocent & killing the bystander as well ; just like the other nations which we both know who but don't need to mention it here.

 

My heart is as white as it gets , I am not anti armenian , I believe in your right to exist just as much as the turk does.

 

I also extended my deepest sorrows to any one who lost a member of their family , thank you for mentioning the fact that we do have the same/similar experiences.

 

You call it tomato

I call it tomatoe

 

What I will not do is to condemn the people who housed me , fed me & gave me a safe place to grow up.

Not without an unrefutable evidence from TC government itself.

 

However hard for you to understand it is , that I have choose to put my trust in TC as you succintly put as an"educated guy" .

 

I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed.

 

I regret to inform you that I also know that this really makes you distrust me & disagree with my stand.

 

Fortunately that is not due to my indoctrination but yours.

If you weren't contidition to

a) distrust every turk

distrust everybody else who disagree with you on this issue of armenian genocide.

 

- You would then see by declaring genocide without central & authorititive verification of your claims only forces people like me to where I am at the moment i.e desperately trying to keep hard line greywolves at bay while trying to engage with sometimes viciously hostile , other times as sweet as honey and rarely politically agitatitive(see Domino) diasporean armenians.

 

I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity.

 

This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's

suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general.

 

 

So if you want all the people to follow your higher ideal for humanity then make sure your strategy does not use any turk as escape goat.

 

I rather look silly then be considered as a betrayer of turkish nation and nobody is forcing me to say that.

 

I truely believe that you are out to get me & my family & you are just waiting for conditions to be "Right".

 

I don't think turkey should open up the pondora's box implementing sevres , you probably believe the sevres treaty to be fair & just in it's contents.

 

In reality if implemented , it would make you my new landlord.

 

Since when armenians controlled the eastern anatolia & made it theirs ?

 

Circassians have always travelled to anatolia on horse back , nobody ever told me that you guys owned all of eastern anatolia.

 

Sure there were lots of armenian villages & lots of you always have lived amongs turks in the cities but since when you have ever took eastern anatolia from the turk in a military battle ?

 

So you can see i have lots to say about lots of things and none of which is anything fun to read for you.

 

I am also sick of ignorant europeans/americans who have never heard of what happened to my people yet they are accusing me & my family personally of killing the armenian race.

 

Largely thanks to people like you who have been indoctrinated to believe "whatever" the cost in terms of personal slandering & indivisual accountability are , it's worth it because the receipient is turk.

---

 

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Mike77]

Hello, Circassian, what, a man that has an ethnic identity?? That cannot be, within Turkey at least. Circassian you must live outside Turkey. By the way, just a question: Before the Turks invaded the region, what religion did the Circassians practice??

[Mike77]

Regarding JUSTIN MACCARTHY, I suspect our God and savior will sort him out! RIP

[THOTH]

I meant to actually address some of your poinst specifically...perhaps I can do so briefly...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by circassian:

 

Turks do/did lots of things wrong , including massacering the innocent & killing the bystander as well ; just like the other nations which we both know who but don't need to mention it here.

 

---I am glad that you can at least admit that Turks have massacered innocents. There are others on these forums who actually deny this....

 

My heart is as white as it gets , I am not anti armenian , I believe in your right to exist just as much as the turk does.

 

---I understand how you see it this way from your perspective. Regardless, the end result is that you are anti-Armenian because of your level of opposition to the cause we hold most dear - the memories of our families so brutally and needlessly killed. You may want to ammend your statement :..as much as the turk does." To many this may imply the opposite to what I think you were trying to convey.

 

I also extended my deepest sorrows to any one who lost a member of their family , thank you for mentioning the fact that we do have the same/similar experiences.

 

---Yes, which is why your opposing us is most sad.

 

You call it tomato

I call it tomatoe

 

What I will not do is to condemn the people who housed me , fed me & gave me a safe place to grow up.

Not without an unrefutable evidence from TC government itself.

 

However hard for you to understand it is , that I have choose to put my trust in TC as you succintly put as an"educated guy" .

 

---TC? Turkish Constitution? Anyway, I think only a fool would actually trust the Turkish (or really any) Government...but specifically the Turkish Government whose foundations are built upon and built upon perpetuation of so many lies...

 

I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed.

 

---?This is really a non-statement, a cop out. Will these archives...even if "fully?" opened ever bu fully analized? And of course, I don't trust the Turkish Government. I certainly don't trust them to basically incriminate themselves (direct predecessors). There is plenty of evidence in other archives...plenty

 

I regret to inform you that I also know that this really makes you distrust me & disagree with my stand.

 

---What is this with trust? - I can see what you post. You are not all bad, but there is a fundemental corruption, IMO. That I disagree with your conclusions etc goes without saying

 

Fortunately that is not due to my indoctrination but yours.

If you weren't contidition to

a) distrust every turk

distrust everybody else who disagree with you on this issue of armenian genocide.

 

---Now here is where you are on shaky ground. I have had no indoctrination. Really. Neither from my family or any Armenian organization. My family was from Istanbul (pretty much) and was fully emershed in Turkish/Ottoman culture, growing up none of this was much a subject of discussion (at all), and I have had little contact with Armenians until adulthood, and then that contact has been apolitical. I have had more contact with Turks growing up (outside my family) than Armenians. So your acusation doesn't fly. Why would I distrust Turks? I count several Turks among my good friends. I see that we are more alike than different...etc It is your bias which shows here. And I don't necissarily distrust any who disagree with me on my views concerning the Genocide - plenty do. Some are not fully informed of course, others (like you? LOL) amay have some hidden agenda, of course, and others still may just see things somewhat different - and legitimatley. Of course any who deny that it was Genocide are just (at some level fundementally) incorrect (or fail to understand the definition of the word)...

 

 

- You would then see by declaring genocide without central & authorititive verification of your claims only forces people like me to where I am at the moment i.e desperately trying to keep hard line greywolves at bay while trying to engage with sometimes viciously hostile , other times as sweet as honey and rarely politically agitatitive(see Domino) diasporean armenians.

 

---First of all the word Genocide was coined to describe the Armenian situation. And its not just "claims" of Armenians. It is eyewitness, scholarly and governmental accounts from the period - including those by Ottoman allies and by the Ottomans themselves (please read transcripts of some of the trials after the war)

 

I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity.

 

This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's

suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general.

 

---Yea right. Who are you to say this? First of all - you are fundementally a denier - and are acting to "save" the reputation of your people (a lost cost - particularly when you perpetuate your myths and continue to deny). Armenians have every right to demand recognition. As Turkey resists so it will consume much energy on our part - but don't think that it is our or my only concern...again you presume too much...and it speaks to your biases

 

 

So if you want all the people to follow your higher ideal for humanity then make sure your strategy does not use any turk as escape goat.

 

---Well...ultimatly it is a subset of "Turk" etc...and its funny that you talk of scapegoating. And if it wasn't Turks - who the hell did exterminate the Armenians? I mean the Germans are clearly identified with the Holocaust - but does this necissarily mean that they have been scapegoated? No, and though there is a certain stigmatism for a people who have done such in the (recent) past - everyone understands it was Nazis and particular events and influences on their society whioch caused such - these things can be examined and causation and other issues loked at objectively. Same for the Turks and CUP etc etc - except the Government/media/people of Turkey (for the most part) are like the "see no evil, hear no evil",etc monkeys and refuse to examine such or budge an inch from their very false and unfoutunate denial.

 

I rather look silly then be considered as a betrayer of turkish nation and nobody is forcing me to say that.

 

---Well thats it isn't it. So if you tell/admit trruth you see that you are betryaing your nation - so you would rather lie/obscure. This is a fundemental flaw to your and many other Turks reasoning IMO. In fact your current posture/attitudes etc are what is betraying your people and nation.

 

I truely believe that you are out to get me & my family & you are just waiting for conditions to be "Right".

 

---Well again, here you have revealed yourself - your paranoia. This is a statement about you - it has nothing to do with me or most Armenians.

 

I don't think turkey should open up the pondora's box implementing sevres , you probably believe the sevres treaty to be fair & just in it's contents.

 

In reality if implemented , it would make you my new landlord.

 

Since when armenians controlled the eastern anatolia & made it theirs ?

 

Circassians have always travelled to anatolia on horse back , nobody ever told me that you guys owned all of eastern anatolia.

 

---I've discussed Sevres etc already...again this is a non-issue - it bespeaks of your paranoia and your conditioning where you have been made afraid to even consider Armenains points because of these false notions that your Government propaganda has made an issue specifically to raise the hairs on the Turk's backs.

 

Sure there were lots of armenian villages & lots of you always have lived amongs turks in the cities but since when you have ever took eastern anatolia from the turk in a military battle ?

 

---Your point? Look you don't want to go here - trust me on this....(it is a very silly point of yours - again bespeaks your biases etc)

 

So you can see i have lots to say about lots of things and none of which is anything fun to read for you.

 

----No fun - yea, its tragic (the level of your buy in to your false reality)

 

I am also sick of ignorant europeans/americans who have never heard of what happened to my people yet they are accusing me & my family personally of killing the armenian race.

 

---Not all are ignorant (and we feel the same concerning the Turkish people - particualrly those who mouth off hate and know nothing really about what they speak). I and most Armenians know better than to accuse you and your family personally etc - comon now really...

 

Largely thanks to people like you who have been indoctrinated to believe "whatever" the cost in terms of personal slandering & indivisual accountability are , it's worth it because the receipient is turk.

---

 

People like me who have been indoctrinated...well I've coverd this haven't I? And slandering etc...please...

[Guest]

Thoth

I must of rattled your cage a bit I guess.

I apoligize if you have taken any offense , I have just read your posting concerning "armenia for armenians" ; it turns out you & I hold very similar view.

 

I take my comments " people like you ..." back

It is irritating to be told by a total stranger that you are a something or the other.

I should know because that is exactly what Domino has done with me.

My point I guess was to show how I feel about Domino & i have not meant to judge you personally.

 

As to the content of your reply ; I can make thousand points out of it but I am not going to because I understand where you coming from & wish you success.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike77:
Hello, Circassian, what, a man that has an ethnic identity?? That cannot be, within Turkey at least. Circassian you must live outside Turkey. By the way, just a question: Before the Turks invaded the region, what religion did the Circassians practice??

---

Hello Mike77

Come now Mike , ethnicity is not really a new concept for the " turk " is it?

Being equal with every one else however is totally new concept to most turks & once that is established in the mind of ordinary turk - rest becomes easier.

[nairakev]

Hi circassian!
Still working out the bst recipe?


I shall reserve the right to judge until the Ottoman Archives are fully analized & it's contents revealed.
Well, Ottoman Archives will not prove or disaprove what happened. They can play some important role for turks, who still are looking for diasproval...
The fact of genocide is not measured by the number of states having recognised the Armenian Genocide. It won't either depend on Armenians who, let's imagine, will give up their cause and drop all their movements and revendications.

The fact of genocide can be proven by two arguments.

1.) Absence of Armenian population in Modern Turkey after the end of WWI and few more years after that.

No historian (even denialist) will affirm that armenians did not populate the Eastern Turkey before 1895 or 1915. There was an importnat Armenian population in Eastern Turkey
with all cultural, ethnical and social institutions. Between 1915-1922 this population (mostly christian) has suddenly diasappeared. If we were talking about dinosaures, then we could still doubt the reason of their disappeareance. Fifty thousand years later.

The disappeareance of Armenians took place 86 years ago. When the human society was more shaped, human memory was much fresher and media means were already existing to capture those events and bring some testimonies.

Armenia during its all history was dozenly invaded, pulled into bloody and long-lasting devastating conflicts, but never ... never ... after all bloodshed and massacres ... organised by foreigners, armenians did abandon their homeland without being forced to do so. You cannot suppose that this nation which had a pretty rich "survivor's" resume did leave the land of its grandparents because of hunger, desease or a natural disaster (earthquake, flood). Even if meteorites did hit and burnt the land, armenians wouldn't have left their homes.

The only reason for such a weird disappeareance could be a "planified" massive extermination policy organised on governmental level, ending by forced deportation...

Do you have other reasons why Armenians could leave their homelands? They were often invaded and massacred by persians, bysanthians, by monghols and tatars, by romans, by seldjuks, by Sultan Hamid? ...
So why didn't they leave before. And how d'you explain to yourself that they have massively disappeared between 1915-1922? What is your hypothesis?

2) Second argument is more severe. Even if armenians did give up their revendications. The world had captured the horrors of Armenian Genocide. Their tones of information (written, typed, filmed, recorded) by those who were no turks and they were not armenians either.
So by saying that the Ottoman Archives will lighten the "myth" of Armenian Genocide , as many turks call it, sounds more hypocritical excuse to take a revanche on denying it by more arguments, than a sober will to find out more proofs. Proofs exist in archives of other Nations. So if you want to believe into something you didn't witness, try to read what others wrote on this issue. The Turkish position is no more a secret. It is a "denialist".
Besides, I cannot fully trust a Governments which has financed during the years lobbying to deny the Genocide, the Government which during many years had covered the crimes of Ottoman Turkey, will keep the Archives intact. Why Turkish Government waits more than 86 years to open its Archives, which can help her to clean its past. Are you sure that Turkish Government does not systematicaly clean out its Archives of unwanted evidences.

As for documents, for me the witnessing of Germans is quiet enough. Germany was Turkey's ally during the WWI. Who could better than Germany stand forits ally. But unconcsiously, probably, many testimonies came out from Germany... and they will continue to come out. The documentalists are working with German archives as well.
So, don't you think that testimonies of third parties it's enough as a nevidence for one who doesn't know what we are talking about?

I diss the your cause because you are presenting it as a benchmark for humanity.

This part I have to object because if you have really cared about "HUMANS" in general rather then "ARMENIAN HUMANS" in particular then you could have rightfully expected my support for your fight to have your people's
suffering marked in the history as a benchmark to humanity in general.

Excuse me but this is rediculous.
I don't know what do you mean by this statement. If you mean armenians, as ethnic people, or armenian diasporan institutions.
To whom is adressed your subject?
If this is addressed to all armenians. I'm sorry, but armenians are not supposed to be saints. I'm really sorry to diasppoint you. There are some good folks and there some important amount of bustards.

BTW, during the recent war in Osetia and in Georgian civil wars, armenians were the target of attacks from both sides. Many armenians were living with georgians and many armenians were living with abkhazians. I had some far relatives who lived in Soukhoumi and Gagra. Many of amrmenians were fighting with abkhaz independantists shoulder to shoulder. Many armenians were soldiers and officers on georgian side. Do you know how many armenians have died killing each other, because from both sides they were considering themselves patriots of the land for which they stood up. Isn't it enough human for you? Do you blame those who were fighting for abkhazians, or may be you want to blame those who were fighting for georgians? What is it so inhuman in their behaviour? May be because they loved the land so much? No way! Many of those who didn't want to fight, took their cars and went to Russia (1-2 hours drive by car).
When I was in Sochi I've seen those so-called patriots from Abkhazia who were having fun in casions and night clubs. They were from different sides: abkhazians, georgians and armenians as well? But the majority was fighting on the frontlines.
Should I like or dislike someone? Should I make some preferences on who was more human in this war?

Do you know how many armenians died in Lebanon during the civil war which has ruined that country? Do you know how many armenians were involved in Iran-Iraq war? They were fighting from both sides. Because they were citizens of the country they lived in.

Isn't it enough HUMAN blood donation for a nation which have been already subject to extermination from Turkish blood-suckers in 1915?
Wherever Armenians lived they were in some cases more patriotic than the locals. You cannot say that we do not care when others blood is wasted.

Circassian, I don't know what are you looking for? You want to justify what happened to us in Turkey or you want to understand?

If you want to understand. I hope I have contributed a little bit to it...


[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[MJ]

Naira,

I can tell you what he is looking for.

He things he is playing “realpolitik,” here, and he thinks we are here to make a “deal.”
Silently, by his gestures he says, “I know we have committed Genocide, and it was terrible,” but when it comes to speaking out loudly, he says: “Let’s make a deal. You walk away from the allegations of the Genocide, and we’ll give you a stake. Maybe we can even tolerate you in Caucasus, and let you benefit from our dominance.” He says let’s come to a consensus, if you want to exist. He doesn’t understand that even if we were even ready to say yes, neither him nor us don’t speak for our nations or our governments. His position makes him feel self-importance.

He doesn’t understand that he is overestimating his abilities to play the “game.” Moreover, he doesn’t understand that it is not a game for us, whatsoever.

He is just a self-appointed defender of the pan-Turkish interests - this is what he thinks, without understanding that he is about 85 years late.

He is talking or pretending to care about Humanity and Morality in general, but he doesn’t recognize the most fundamental Human Rights to live, and to remember. He things that he is going to lure us to trade our memory. He has no understanding of the fact that our memory is part of who we are. He also things that “he” is winning time, that the time is against us.

He pretends to be a Human Rights advocate for Turkey, and hints for being jailed for that cause. But he lacks an elementary understanding that any achievements in the arena of Turkey’s Human Rights Record can be built only on the foundations of their recognition and condemnation of the Armenian Genocide. He doesn’t that the Achilles Heel of the Turkish totalitarianism is the Armenian Genocide.

Or, the alternative is that he clearly understands that the reform of the Turkish society and the marginalization of Turkish military’s influence in their political and social life starts namely from this recognition. That once the Genocide is recognized, it opens Turkey’s Pandora’s Box, and leads to the liberation of the Turkish society and its renaissance. Maybe this is what he is afraid of, and that’s why he is trying to maneuver and talks from both corners of his mouth.

But I hope that some day he understands that we are not interested in talking from the corners of our mouths. The only thing we are interested here is a straight talk.

[Guest Fadi]

Naira, very good points, but you just are giving them to the wrong guy. This guy will not move one inch of his preconcieved racistic thinking. He is conditioned like a programmed robot. After months this guy is still the same. I provided hundreds of materials, many from Turkish sources, memoires of Halil the Suprem General of how he tried to wipe out the Armenians to the last individual, Karabekir memoires of his plan to destrow Armenia and Armenians quoting "Wipe out for eternity" etc... I posted Turkish newspapers of the time, verdict of the tribunal, quotations from Refic working at the Turkish military war intelligentsia and writing in his after war reports, of how the Ottoman build up an alleged Armenian rebellion to justify the "Imha" of the Armenians, how the special organization was traned in the army and how they were sent.

 

This guy didn't do nothing, only answering that Armenians are liars etc... without trying to prove the contrary, I gave all my references asked him to check etc... So what ever you will say will change nothing, you have no idea with who you are dealing with, he has good face here in an Armenian forum, but you have no idea of every things he said, and what he think of Armenians.

 

What I can say is BRAVO for your post, it will change nothing on Circassian racistic thinking, but very informative for others. You just forgot to mention Turkish sources, that are very important hundreds of Turkish newspapers covering the Turkish military after war tribunal that was a public one, so for this we have access to the newspapers collected by the US ministry of foreign affairs and pout on Microfils. You also forgot the Muslim eyewithneses.

 

I will post the accusation chief of the heads, for the plan to exterminate the Armenians, but I have to translate it from French, they are taken from Turkish newspaper, the one that I have has an important full part, and not Dadrian publications with only some important quotations.

 

Here is a Muslim eyewithness. Faïez El Ghocein an Arab Muslim Bedouin, the sun of the tribu chief and a lawyer and the prefet of the district of Mamourit-ul-Aziz. He was arrested and deported, because he refused the orders comming to him to order his tribues to exterminate the Armenians of his area.

 

During his deportation with others with him that refused with him to follow the orders, he describe the Armenian victimes.

 

"…in the evening, we arrived at Kara-Djouroun where we spent the night. To the rising of the Sun, they directed us towards Severek. The aspect of the road quiver us of horror: corpses strewed to the two edges; sometimes it was an inanimate woman, with half covered by her long hair; sometimes there was other women lying, face against ground, in a pool of coagulated blood; or many corpses of men desiccated by the sun and were blacks like coal. As we were approaching Severek, the number of the corpses increased and the victims were especially children…"

 

Faïez El Ghocein, Les Massacres d'Arménie, p. 16 (translated from Arabic)

 

There is other Arabic works of the time conserning the genocide.

 

Here is 3 from the Holocaust Museum.

 

Ghusayn, Fa'iz al- (Ghocein, Ghussein, Ghassein). La domination ottomane; l'Armenie martyre. Geneva: Edition Atar, 1917.

Notes: Also in German and English.

 

Ghusayn, Fa'iz al- (Ghocein, Ghussein, Ghassein). Martyred Armenia. London: C. Arthur Pearson, 1917. 52 pp.

Notes: U.S. Printing by George H. Doran, 1918. Reissued, New York: Tankian Publishing Corp., 1975. Also in French, Italian, German Swedish, Arabic (original language), and Armenian.

 

Ghusayn, Fa'iz al- (Ghocein, Ghussein, Ghassein). Temoignage d'un Arabe musulman sur l'innocence et le massacre des Armeniens. Cairo: np, 1917.

 

 

You also forgot some underground newsgroups or intellectuals, like the Jewish NILI group, that reported from eyewithneses. the massacres. This one, has made Circassian jump.

 

Eitan Belkind eyewithness report.

 

"The Circassian soldiers ordered the Armenians to gather thorns and thistles to pile them into a tall pyramid; afterward they tied all of the Armenians who were there, almost five thousand souls, hand in hand, encircled them like a ring around the pile of thistles and thorns and set it afire in a blaze which rose up to the heavens together with the screams of the wretched people who were burned to death by the fire. I fled from the place, because I could not stand to see this horrifying sight..."

 

The flame of Nili, pp. 111 -15