One minute silence...

[Azat]

Juggernaut,

Can you please start this campaign by not talking or posting for:

 

1 minute of silence for the Afghans

5 min for Korea

10 min for Hiroshima and Nagasaki

30 for children of Iraq

1 hour for Vietnam

24 for the cold war

and eternity for the Native Americans.

 

This will be a wonderful way for you to show how much you believe in the crap you write.

[Juggernaut]

Yes, silence on this thread.

And its not 'crap', its reallity

[TigrannesIII]

Interesting that this subject comes up now... that's another story.

Artsakh is approximately 7% of the 'occupied territories'. As MJ stated earlier, the buffer zone that was created was to prevent military aggression against Armenian civilians. It is not a 'bargaining chip' in its initial purpose, but why should the Armenians give ground until the Azeris give up what's not theirs?

The 1 million refugees is more like 700,000, 1 million total (300.000 ethnic Armenians from Artsax and Azerbaijan). Regardless, the Azeris refugees especially live in hellish conditions. No person anywhere should have to live like that. Despite section 907, these refugees still received USAID packages, given through NGO's. According to the US state department, 'the Azerbaijani government does almost nothing for its refugees'. They let them live like that to show them to the world and cry, while the Armenians take care (as best they can, at least better than their rivals) of their refugees. Azerbaijan spends approximately 40-65% of their budget on military spending; what about those refugees?

It is also worth mentioning that the Armenians started the political process via 1)mass demonstrations in Yerevan, (2)appeals to the Soviet Supreme, and (3)referendums in Artsax. It was the Azeris who drew blood in Baku, Sumagit, and Kirovabad.

[MosJan]

Wow TigrannesIII

[Juggernaut]

I agree with all that you have said, but a country that has a portion of its territory occupied by hostile millitary is justified in spending so much on millitary.

[TigrannesIII]

But not a country 'committed to peaceful resolution'. Oh, wait- we're talking about Azerbaijan.

[Paul bunyan]

A Moment of Silence please, for all those who suffer in Armenia, due to the illegal and inhuman blockage of

the turks.

[Juggernaut]

quote

But not a country 'committed to peaceful resolution'

 

They may be 'committed', but how would they be aware of Armenia's intentions? It pays to be safe than sorry.

[aurguplu]

the first priority of a country whose territory is occupied is to get it back, and not any commitment to peace, especially with the aggressor.

[bellthecat]

The oldest surviving bells known in Christendom are probably from Ireland and Scotland. Examples from the 8th century or earlier are known (they are hard to date exactly). These are hand held bells that look like very large cow-bells. They are known to exist at least as early as the 6th century (they are mentioned in manuscripts - and were objects held to have great ceremonial power and importance).

Even bigger bells were mounted in very tall round towers, but no early examples survive.

The use of bells arrived late in Anatolia - you can trace their expanding usage via dated buildings, such as the campanile-like bell tower in Trabzon, from 1427. There were several bell towers in Ani from a slightly earlier date (possibly due to Byzantine influence) - one is known from an inscription dated 1291.

[aurguplu]

thanks steve

 

now that info re the bells: i wouldn't think twice about it if it were a turkish or muslim source, but it was (they were) european sources.

 

it looks like the use of bells for ceremonial/religious purposes is very old, probably pre-christian, maybe christianity took it over from the pagans who converted.

 

maybe that saint (it might have been saint francis of assisi, but i am not at all sure on that, and haven't checked it) just introduced the three-times a day practice on the muslim example, in other words, regulated a practice that was already there in essence.

 

would like to hear if you can find anything about it.

 

cheers,

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

Could you elaborate further on the subject of the "agressors," so that there is no ambiguity in what we are talking about. Then, perhaps, I would have some comments.

[aurguplu]

i don't know offhand, but turks were very closely associated with iranians since at least the 6th century ad (tajiks are iranian). turks were also called sarts (sarts are also iranian) and scythians (scythians spoke an iranian dialect which still survives: ossete of the caucasus).

early armenian sources constantly confuse the turks and the persians (and sometimes the mongols), this is a reflection of the reality that these people operated together.

today we have the habit of saying that this or that people of the past belonged to this or that ethnic group, which is misleading: people of different ethnic backgrounds came together for common purposes, and many of the national and even ethnic designations that survive today actually started life as confederation names.

cheers,

[bellthecat]

Capish?!!! A fine example of the everyday use of an Armenian cultural idiom not stolen/borrowed/adopted from anyone else.

[aurguplu]

well, if a country is engaged in armed action or is supporting armed action inside another country with a view to putting an end to its territorial integrity, that would mean "aggression" to me.

[MJ]

So, Ali, you are proposing Armenia to let another country to slaughter its Armenian minority? IS that what Turkey did in Cyprus?

Also, are you familiar with International Law, in particular with the clause of Nations' Right for Self-Determination?

[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[aurguplu]

i forgot to add that in the cse of nagorno-karabagh, i do not blame the armenians for their armed resistance against the azeris. it is the oe million internally displaced azeris who are almost all from the regions neighbouring karabagh, not in it, that we have a problem with.

i am pleasantly surprised that an armenian of all people found a parallel between karabagh and cyprus. yes, you are in very much the same position as we were in cyprus, and you have about as much chance getting the annexation or independence of karabagh recognised as we have with our turkish republic of northern cyprus.

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

The Armenian side is not interested in keeping the Azeris of the surrounding zones of Karabagh in railroad carriages and tents. It has not been the purpose of the Armenian military operations. And the Armenian side has confirmed many times to resolve the issue. There have even been discussions of allowing it to happen in several stages. However, the Azerbaijani political forces have strongly opposed to it. They give not a dimes' worth to the sufferings of their people. What they count on is that Armenia will be chocked economically by Turkey, and eventually will give up everything. Such a political adventurism, and what a miscalculation...

However, while there are similarities between the Turkish intervention in Cyprus and the Armenian intervention in Karabagh, there are also significant differences. Unfortunately, today I cannot go into it due to my time limitations, but hope to do it in the next few days.

As far as the annexation of Karabagh to Armenia is concerned, outside some irrelevant circles, there is no such issue. Karabagh has declared independence and Armenia supports it. Obviously, we have not had much success with the de-jure recognition of that independence of Karabagh, as much as it is a de-facto independent state. What are our chances of de-jure recognition? Hard to tell. Obviously it is an uphill battle. But with the same token, the insinuation that Karabagh may become part of Azerbaijan again is an illusion, too. It is a very complex issue. No doubt about it.

[MJ]

OK< Ali. I have been distracted from work all day today, so may add one more comment:

the entire Nagorno Karabagh process has started as a Constitutional process, and according to the International Law. Unfortunately, at some point, it has escalated to a military antagonism. But it was not the decision of Armenians of Nagorno Karabagh nor Armenia. It was forced to us by Azerbaijan, or one may go a couple of layers down, and find other parties who needed to escalate the process.

 

After a war was imposed on us, we had only one alternative - to win.

[Paul bunyan]

A moment of silence please, for

the death of American common sense.

it was dying a slow death, and now with the election of george bush and the sucess of his plan to eliminate

Freedom Support Act 907#.

Common sense has died away altogether.

[Accelerated]

....one minute silence for the Iraqis that are about to be slain to satisfy Americas need for oil at dictated prices...

 

__________________________________________________

on a side note: university semester has started, so you guys wont see much (if any) of me for a few months . Another reason is because I got Warcraft 3 yesterday .