One minute silence...

[ThornyRose]

Somebody bring in the violins...

[ThornyRose]

Azat, it just is not an issue, for what people fail to realize is that these famous people have no bearing on themselves (the people who argue about big organs)... In fact, the latter make laughing stocks out of themselves in the process of arguing in this manner (see above)... Ten Armenians can't mend the sad image (that of a racist nincompoop) some display for themselves - so what are they all honking about? So ironic...

I think Cahit Arf deserves a Nobel Prize himself... But isn't there a debate on Nobel Prizes for mathematics or something?

Seferis was a Greek diplomat and author born in Izmir...

[aurguplu]

try germany: the jewish holocaust.

try the usa (brits misplaced): the native americans, slavery, the atomic bomb, vietnam.

try great britain: invention of concentration camps, the massacre at amritsar, the opium wars, the israeli-palestinian problem etc. etc.

try france: above ground detonations in new caledonia.

try china: annihilation of the tibetans, above-ground explosions in sinkiang (chinese turkestan)= uighur genocide in progress.

try serbia: bosnian genocide.

try russia: communism, stalin, chechnya, afghanistan.

try the spaniards: annihilation of the mayan, aztec, and inca civilisations.

try australia (the brits again): the genocide of the aborigines.

the list goes on. keep trying.

[ThornyRose]

Paul Bunyan: "No, Ali, the Turks were worse. They were evil."

[aurguplu]

what good has ever come out of turks?

 

avicenna: 13th century. islamic scholar of medicine and philosopher. born in balkh, afghanistan (then a turkish city), he wrote the "shifa" (health), which was the standard medical textbook in european universities until the 18th century.

 

jawhari: another turk who wrote the "sihah", the standard grammar book of arabic.

 

ulugh begh, ali kuşçu: 15th century central asian turkish astronomers (they were almost contemporary, if i can remember correctly). one of them (can't remember which one) compiled the first star atlas of the world which was in use until and actually way after galileo and kepler. there is a crater of the moon named after ulugh beg (it is spelled ulugh beigh there). show me a celestial body (or any bit of it) named after an armenian.

 

mevlana celaleddin-i rumi: a central asian turk who lived in anatolia in the 13th century, he developed a universalist islamic sect called mevlevism which was open to people from all denominations. show a christian sect that could do the same.

 

yunus emre: the françois villon of turkey, contemporary of mevlana, another universalist. 1972 was the international yunus emre year (designated by unesco).

 

1492: jews expelled from spain find refuge in ottoman turkey.

 

1930s-40s: jews escaped from germany find refuge in turkey.

 

british historian arnold toynbee holds that the future world civilisation will be based on an amalgam of the ottoman concept of tolerance and american concept of free market.

 

the smallpox vaccine (yes, edward jenner got it from turkey through lady mary wortley montagu, wife of the british ambassador to turkey). to be strictly scrupulous: it was the chinese who invented it, uighur turks improved it, and what's more, passed it on to others (the chinese are not known for willingly passing their inventions to the rest of humanity). it was practiced for centuries in turkey before lady montagu reported it to the west.

 

leyla gencer: internationally acclaimed opera singer, slightly earlier than maria callas. considered the most formidable rival to callas, callas' (rich) husband spent a ton of memory to bury her, but there is a "singing a la gencer" style in operatic literature. get some classical music buff who knows the obscure but great recordings and opera history, and he'll tell you.

 

the "rondo alla turca" by mozart (as the name obviously implies).

 

paper marbling: this beautiful art is of asian origin (the japanese have something similar called suminagashi), but it was the turks who perfected the art, and the europeans got it from turkey (it was the famous dutch ambassador to the ottoman empire, busbeckq, who first saw it). everytime you read an old book with marbling in the inside binding and on the outer edges, remember that.

 

tulip: a central asian plant, widely revered by muslim turks because the four letters used to write it in turkish (lale) are the same as the ones to write God (Allah). again, it was busbeckq who got the first tulip bulb to europe. the dutch have something to thank us for.

 

coffee: the concept of drinking coffee passed from turkey to the west, and the concept of cafe passed from egypt to napoleonic france, then the rest of europe. every time you sip a cup of coffee, remember that.

 

church bells: some european saint in the early middle ages was travelling through islamic anatolia (seljukid it must have been) and was inspired by the muslim practice of call to prayer five times a day. he then introduced the custom, in a slightly altered fashion, of ringing bells three times a day. every wondered why very early christian churches didn't have belltowers, or why belltowers are usually more recent than the main building?

 

the list goes on, but i am busy currently.

 

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

 

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

 

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[Harut]

i don't want to start a competition here, but to address to your question:

Viktor Hambardzumian-- the third in "the most influential people of 20th century" in science section by TIME. if i'm not mistaken there is a galaxy(discovered by him) named after him.

[Harut]

sorry. it's not a galaxy.

 

it's the planet # 1905. AMBARTSUMIAN

[ThornyRose]

Oh my gosh, just take a look at who Birsel Lemke is!

http://www.rightlivelihood.se/2000/press1_3.html

 

NO WAY!

[Paul bunyan]

Bells, were invented in the east by the Chinese and in the west by Romans.

coffee was discovered by the Arabs.

long before the turks showed up.

[ThornyRose]

I thought the use of bells in churches had something to do with the Irish...
As for coffee, nope, it was discovered by Ethiopians... But its preparation (as Turkish coffee) was perfected in Istanbul (so what's all this "Greek coffee" [which is very different - friends have been there] or "Arabic coffee" baloney? maybe we shoulda called it Istanbul coffee for the smart alecks to not object to the word "Turk"?). Who cares about the raw material? It is how you process it and what you get from it that counts. Clay is just mud you can stack - but you can make pots and bricks from it. Also - a bitter lesson for Turks - it is Holland that reaps the money for growing tulips - not us.
Nice try, but miserable.
Erh, how about Avicenna and Alpharabius? Were they raised by the Eskimos, your royal arrogance?

[ThornyRose]

Would the forum members elect that the Ertegün brothers deserve the mention?

 

Also, Nevin Selçuk is our pride and joy in chemical engineering - she is one of the top three (I think) in her field.

[gamavor]

Ali,

 

All of the bad things mentioned by you as a crime or just tragedy that had happened in the course of the history are well known. The point is that all those tragedies have been healed more or less. This is not the case with your race and your stolen (meaning adoption from other cultures of basic customs and life sterotypes because of lack of their own, because of their backwardness)culture. You are simply ...turks! Capish?

[ThornyRose]

Basic customs? Now that is interesting. And what might those be?
By the way - the Turkic folks of Central Asia do not have a backward culture.

[Juggernaut]

Erm, can we return back to the topic and observe the minutes of silence for the vicitims of the American regime.

 

and add to that list 1 hour of silence for the indescriminate murder of German civilians (by bombing) in Second World War.

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

 

While I am not supportive of pointless statements denigrating the Turks, and I think that such generalized statements regardless who they concern, are more indicative of the ignorance of the alleging party (equally concerning the-Cat-who- needs-to-be-Belled), neither being supportive of the bragging about “Armenian being the source of civilization,” for the sake of the record, however, I would like to mention that if there has been a scientific arena where Armenian scientists have lead the world science for decades, it has been Astrophysics and Astronomy. I would give you just three major names, and you can search Yahoo, for example: Ambartsumian/Hambartsumian the late President of the Academy of Sciences of Armenia), Markarian and Gurzadian – both currently active (I may have some spelling/transliteration errors). Additionally, almost every other junior scientist of the Burakan Observatory or the Garni Institute or some other Armenian corresponding Institutions has either a star or some other celestial body in his name or his wife's name, or his daughters' name (a little bit a rhetoric statement just to give you the big picture). Such set of discoveries has been most casual in Armenian scientific world. To summarize, the reputation of the Armenian Astrophysicists/Astronomists in the International Scientific Arena is on unparalleled height.

 

As to Armenians occupying 20% of Azerbaijan outside Karabagh for the sake of the corridor, I would also like to inform you that you are misinformed. First of all, it is less than 20%, additionally it also includes Karabagh. However, the occupation of these territories is not done or maintained by Armenia, but by the Karabagh military forces (though Armenia has given some support). And the purpose of the occupation has not been the corridor, but the creation of a security zone or buffer zone, to prevent the bombardment of the Armenian residential districts of Karabagh, which was one of the favorite hobbies of Azerbaijani military and paramilitary prior to the “occupation.” Additionally, Karabagh has expressed readiness many times to pull out of these territories as soon as the security of the Karabagh population is guaranteed and the problem has found political resolution.

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

i agree with you. the thing is that when you get into a discussion (if you can call the above mess a discussion) you tend to get to the same level as your opponent, otherwise you pull out. now the intellectual quality of paul bunyan and gamavor are obvious intheir writings, it was my mistake to attempt to do some positive contribution in the first place, being familiar withtheir past postings. anyway, i do not for a moment think that the armenians did not contribute to world culture, sciences, arts and technology, but the challenge was a good one, i know of the names of several armenian astronomers and a planet now!

how tragic: i am sure these armenians and turks, dealing with the formation of the universe, which in my opinion is far more intersting than any mud-slinging, never cared a bit if they were "the pride of turkey/armenia". people who use such great figures of mankind in such silly fights have not undrerstood them and what they stood for in the first place.

i should never have entered that fight myself, i got below my own level.

2. karabagh: yes, you are right in the 20% issue. it's the whole territory including karabagh. i had made that mistake in the past, too. the thing is i do not know all that much about karabagh (i am not that interested in it per se) and do not know what the latest developments are. if the karabagh armenians returned the land outside karabagh that they occupied and if the 1 million internally displaced azeris could return home, the situation would largely be settled, i think. azerbaijan has no interest in having an armenian enclave inside itself. these two peoples should go their separate ways.

anyway, i came to this forum to make positive contributions, not negative, and i think i should make that under other headings rather than address gamavor or paul bunyan. these two are hopeless cases.

re the bells and coffee:

1. bells: people have hd bells since time immemorial, but the use of churchbells three times a day dates to what i had told in my earlier posting. my reference for that was 1) an entry i had read years ago at oxford, 2) an anglican priest, and 3) an article in "the economist" withinthe last five years.

i am sure we can find someone who knows more about churches and bells, and ask him. can you ask an armenian, greek, american or some other priest?

thanks

2) coffee: coffee was discovered by the arabs, but they preferred to mix it with butter and eat it rather than drink it, a bit like chocolate. the concept of drinking coffee is later. the concept of drinking coffee the way we do today is known to have been borrowed from the ottoman empire twice. i had never thought that my posting would be taken to mean that turks had discovered coffee (they couldn't have, the plant grows in southern arabia/eastern africa) and don't now how i got tangled up in that fight over something i so much enjoy.

anyway, i will be back with higher-quality postings.

cheers,

[aurguplu]

jug,

 

here is my one minute silence for all victims of injustice, american or not.

 

.......................................

[Nvard]

You don't have a damn right to call this Tajik geniuos a Turk!

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

I think that the Azeri refugees should be allowed to return to the places of their residence to the extent that they themselves desire to do so. However, the primary party preventing their return is their own government, which not only doesn’t give a damn about the well being of its own citizens, but also finds the presence of refugees to be advantageous for political gains. The problem is that the problem of refugees cannot be solved as a stand-alone problem. It is a part of a wider complex of problems- not easy ones, admittedly.

[aurguplu]

nvard,

i will not be any taller if he were a turk, or any shorter if here weren't. i call him a turk (and don't really think it of much consequence) because my history education (which i received at oxford, england) and my references (too numerous to list) tell me that he is most likely to have been one.

to be sure, his ethnic identity is a matter of dispute, precisely for the fact that medieval muslims thought little of ethnicity (the arabo-persian feud, the shuubiyya movement, and the arab-berber conflict are exceptions). islam was a universal religion and encompassed everyone from all backgrounds. besides, avicenna was such a genius that he would laugh his butt off if he saw 20th century people discussing his ethnicity rather than his ideas! the fact that he wrote voluminously and said next to nothing about his ethnicity shows how little he cared for it in the first place.

to the best of our knowledge, he was born in balkh, then a predominantly (but probably not originally, to be scrupulously honest) turkish city. he is known to have spoken persian (tajik is just another version of persian) and he wrote in arabic. he is the perfect example of the cosmopolitan nature of islam.

i would appreciate if you have "proof" of him being a tajik and not a turk. as i say, scholarship holds that he is most likely to have been a turk, but that this is of so little consequence that people probably did not bother to research it that thoroughly.

i also think that it is of no consequence. remember: all great men essentially belong to the single nation of humanity. quibbles about ethnicity are for mediocre minds.

clear?

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[aurguplu]

by the way, nvard,

 

turkish armenians call turks "tajik". did you know?

 

cheers,

[aurguplu]

dear mj,

i agree with you there, but the thing is their plight does little to enhance the image of karabagh armenians.

i shall not get into a lenghty discussion on that, because i don't know all that much about it, and i have found in our previous discussions that we are in general agreement over certain broad outlines concerning it, but even if you ask a non-turk or a non-armenian (or a non-ex-ottoman, i must add) the karabagh armenians appear as aggressors and the azeri civilians (not the govt) as victims. this is despite the fact that the azeri govt has one of the lowest levels of respectability among the world's governments.

cheers,

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

Since you have indicated a lack of desire to go into lengthy deliberations, I would also be short: with the exception of some isolated cases there is no one outside Azerbaijan or Turkey who would consider Karabagh Armenians to be the aggressors. Any knowledgeable person on the subject would recognize such argument being at least ridiculous. It is not the fault of the Karabagh Armenians that they have emerged victorious in a war, which was forced to them by Azerbaijan. Karabagh Armenians have courageously defended their land, they have demonstrated superior dedication and military abilities, they have fought hard, they have made significant sacrifices, and they have won. Which part of it qualifies as aggression?

To summarize, we are at a stage in our history that we would prefer to be victorious and be qualified as “aggressors” by those for whom our victories are not in agreement with their political doctrines, rather than to be slaughtered again, and have others shed a couple of “crocodile tears” for us.

Additionally, the Karabagh Armenian agenda has nothing to do with the Azeri refugees - it is for the independence of Karabagh.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[ThornyRose]

Why?

[aurguplu]

1. what has been healed in the case of the EXTINCT native american and australian cultures, languages and peoples?

2. why is it that when the west gets something from the east it is cultural enrichment, meeting of two cultures etc., and when turks do the same it is "stealing".

3. what would you say if we had stayed in anatolia for 1,000 years and got nothing from the anatolian cultures?

4. how can you expect a nation that is about three quarters anatolian genetically and only one quarter central asian (if that) NOT to have an equal proportion of anatolian and central asian charcateristics in its culture?

5. did you not get anything from the turks? look around and see.

6. what do you know about the turkish culture (pre-islamic and islamic, pre-anatolian and anatolian) to conclude that we did not have a culture and lifestyle etc. have you read a book on the subject? seen a documentary? visited the countries? talked to the people? what did you do to come to that conclusion, gamavor? what is the basis of your knowledge other than the hate you have been fed?

you know, i can take your quote, switch the places of the words "turk" and "armenian", and out would come the statement of a grey wolf on the armenians.

we are simply turks. ho capito. so what?