Beginning of Clashes

[Ashot]

Even with a new topic you guys can't get enough of space to stop the nonsense, I urge all of you to get on off of your butts and go to Armenia, since you guys are so damn concerned about who should be the president... get up and go there cast your votes and do something about it, all you can do is sit on your cozy chairs in a nice room and command the world... this is not the game command and conquer, this is not the ages of empires you guys think it's that easy to control a country so easy to put new laws around, so easy to get LTP so easy to do whatever you want so get up and do it, or get back to the topic... if you want to talk about whose a good president and whose not go to the other topic... in this topic I would ask everyone to talk about what they think should be done, not whose a better president... Also think before talking, because the way it looks that you guys explain yourself is so easy to be a president, or be the opposition... nothing is easy so you guys have to do a little bit more thinking instead of jut typing whatever comes to mind or whatever you heard and is not your idea... I have noticed most of you guys are using whatever the media is giving you, stop for a minute, do a little bit research, and before you talk bad things about someone try to bring out the good things as well... I am pretty sure if you dig it up you can even find LTP has done good things too!!!

[Nané]

I have noticed most of you guys are using whatever the media is giving you, stop for a minute, do a little bit research, and before you talk bad things about someone try to bring out the good things as well... I am pretty sure if you dig it up you can even find LTP has done good things too!!!

 

Ashot, I honestly would love to hear those good things. My research attempts have been futile. If you have accurate facts, please list them.

[Ashot]

Sulamita jan, menak LTP hamar chi xosq@s, tekuz Serzhi, kam bolor mnatsatsi... heriqa pnovvenq bolorin, zhamanakna lavates linelu miqich... Hayeris vor toghnen amboxch or@ k@boghoqenq yev k@p@novvenq bolorin...

Isk vor verkananq votqi anqam Levoni kesi kesi kesi kes@ chenq kara havaqenq irar glux, bayts enpesenq xosum vontsvor arten amenqs 100000 hoqi dzayn unenq u mer asatsner@ 100%-ani pasteren...

[Twilight Bark]

While I don’t agree on your assessment of nationalism in Armenia in 1920’s,

That's OK. Facts and their implications are immune to such things.

 

It seems like most people in this forum or anywhere else in Armenian circles be it Armenia or Diaspora are against, some are against Mr. Ter-Petrossian some against Mr. Sarkissian. Very few are for something.

They are for something. They just aren't for somebody, and for good reason. I did mention what I am for, by the way.

 

I strongly believe when people elect leaders they choose a path of development that they believe in.

When the "leaders" are worth the term. Since they are not, your belief is in vain.

 

I keep emphasizing the idea of having a vision, but nobody has given his/her vision of the future of the Republic of Armenia. Some form of master plan.

I kind of did, but you didn't find it worth commenting on.

 

My vision of Armenia is seeing Armenia become a part of EU.

Not the worst possible vision, but far short of true ambition.

 

Develop to be a beacon of democracy in a volatile region.

Democracy, as it is practiced in most countries, including Europe, is a tool rather than an end. It serves to give people the illusion of control over their destiny. Republican form of government is like that. Therefore, being a "beacon of democracy" should not be an end in itself. I personally favor something closer to direct democracy. But that's far away at the moment.

 

Strong leaders are able to sell their dream to masses (great example is Obama).

And LTP is a "strong leader", comparable to Obama? Is that your implication?

 

My vision is having open communications and good relations with all countries in the region. Where one can drive from Yerevan to Igdir in 30 minutes (it’s only 30 miles). Where Armenia’s economy is competitive on a global and regional scale and where the goods made in Armenia can have readily accessible markets in Turkey or other countries. Where the cement made in Ararat can be sold to a Turk living in Igdir and use that capital to make the cement factory more competitive. Without good neighborly relations Armenian economy can not compete. Without competitive economy there won’t be any prosperity, without increase in new job creation the emigration will further increase. That’s why I am for Ter-Petrossian. (open borders, free economy, liberalism).

Armenia needs to do the hard thing and build a strong economy and culture with minimal dependence on Turkey. Buying candy and chewing gum from Turkey is fine. Open borders for tourism and such are also fine. But there should be absolutely no vital dependence on Turkey. Turkey is not the only neighbor. Export/import routes through Iran and especially Georgia need to be expanded drastically. It's a short distance from Armenia to the Black sea coast of Georgia. I am aware of the problems, but "dependence" on Georgia is qualitatively different from dependence on Turkey.

I am as liberalist as one can reasonably be, both socially and economically, but I cannot agree with a dependence on a Turkey that has not radically and fundamentally transformed itself. And capitulation on the part of Armenia would have as much success in reforming Turkey as its declining population would have in controlling the overpopulation problem of the world.

Food for thought.

[Nané]

Sulamita jan, menak LTP hamar chi xosq@s, tekuz Serzhi, kam bolor mnatsatsi... heriqa pnovvenq bolorin, zhamanakna lavates linelu miqich... Hayeris vor toghnen amboxch or@ k@boghoqenq yev k@p@novvenq bolorin...

Isk vor verkananq votqi anqam Levoni kesi kesi kesi kes@ chenq kara havaqenq irar glux, bayts enpesenq xosum vontsvor arten amenqs 100000 hoqi dzayn unenq u mer asatsner@ 100%-ani pasteren...

 

Ashot, yes qez konkret harts ughetsi du xusapetsir patasxaneluts.

Yes lavatesoren harts em talis - voronq en Levoni katarats lav gortser@? Karogh em nayev hartsnel - voronq en Serj-i katarats lav gortser@? (ays hartser@ ughum em arants ironiayi)

 

Isk inch verabervum e zhoghovurd kam dzayn havaqelun - nman ambicianer chunem.

 

 

[Ashot]

LTP

 

He served in the Soviet army and reached the rank of lieutenant. Ter-Petrosyan was arrested in 1988 and held for six months without a trial for activities associated with the Artsax Committee, an unofficial organization that sought the unification of the Nagorno-Artsax Autonomous oblast in Azerbaijan with Armenia. He later became the leader of the Armenian Nationalist Movement, a popular cultural-nationalist organization that evolved from the Artsax Committee. In 1990 Ter-Petrosyan was elected Chairman of the Armenian Supreme Soviet, the country’s parliament and highest governmental body. He was elected President of Armenia by direct popular vote in 1991.

 

Before Armenian independence, Ter-Petrosyan had declared his readiness to hold talks with the Azerbaijani government on the conflict in Nagorno-Artsax. He agreed to uphold a decree issued by Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev on disarming non-governmental organizations, and he condemned military attacks by unofficial Armenian groups in Azerbaijan. In 1991 Ter-Petrosyan accused the Soviet army of siding with Azerbaijani forces and destroying a village in eastern Armenia.

 

After his election to the presidency and in an attempt to end the conflict in Nagorno-Artsax, Ter-Petrosyan met with Azerbaijani President Ayaz Mutalibov in the Caucasian resort town of Zheleznovodsk. The negotiations, which were mediated by presidents Boris Yeltsin of Russia and Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan, led to a joint communiqué that called for a ceasefire, the exchange of hostages, and the withdrawal of military personnel from areas of conflict. Resentment at the economic costs of the war and government policies brought mass rallies in August 1992 demanding Ter-Petrosyan’s resignation. Repeated demonstrations in February 1993 caused the president to dismiss his prime minister and appoint a new Cabinet.

 

Fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan continued until a new agreement in July 1994 brought peace; following this Ter-Petrosyan attended talks with President Geydar Aliyev of Azerbaijan in Moscow. Opposition demonstrations against Ter-Petrosyan took place again the same month. The first parliamentary elections since independence, in July 1995, were widely regarded as rigged to return Ter-Petrosyan’s supporters. In February 1998 Ter-Petrosyan suddenly resigned as president after the Legislative Assembly withdrew support for his plan to settle the conflict with Azerbaijan. He was replaced by Robert Kocharyan.

 

NOTE: IT'S OUR PEOPLE THAT DESTROY OUR COUNTRY NOT THE LEADERS

 

[Twilight Bark]

NOTE: IT'S OUR PEOPLE THAT DESTROY OUR COUNTRY NOT THE LEADERS

I tend to think people get the leaders that they deserve. Therefore, the effort should focus on changing ourselves. Good leaders at every level will emerge after that.

 

On the other hand, a rare event may occur and a great leader may emerge to lead an undeserving people to a great future. I suppose you believe in the latter, and LTP is that leader. And the performance and nature of his administration was tragically misunderstood. Is that a fair description?

[Twilight Bark]

Even with a new topic you guys can't get enough of space to stop the nonsense, I urge all of you to get on off of your butts and go to Armenia, since you guys are so damn concerned about who should be the president... get up and go there cast your votes and do something about it, all you can do is sit on your cozy chairs in a nice room and command the world... this is not the game command and conquer, this is not the ages of empires you guys think it's that easy to control a country so easy to put new laws around, so easy to get LTP so easy to do whatever you want so get up and do it, or get back to the topic... if you want to talk about whose a good president and whose not go to the other topic... in this topic I would ask everyone to talk about what they think should be done, not whose a better president... Also think before talking, because the way it looks that you guys explain yourself is so easy to be a president, or be the opposition... nothing is easy so you guys have to do a little bit more thinking instead of jut typing whatever comes to mind or whatever you heard and is not your idea... I have noticed most of you guys are using whatever the media is giving you, stop for a minute, do a little bit research, and before you talk bad things about someone try to bring out the good things as well... I am pretty sure if you dig it up you can even find LTP has done good things too!!!

I don't want to step on your toes too much Ashot, but I have to say that you are not being self-consistent. You say here that this topic is not for discussing who is the better or worse president, but for "what should be done". And then you proceeded to post about LTP's virtues (or lack of vices, or some such). You also chide everyone for talking while not being in Armenia. But your profile next to your posts indicate that you are in California. That's confusing to say the least. By the way, these are alright by me. I have no problem about going tangentially off the formal topic, or people discussing the politics of the homeland even if they have to live outside of it for one reason or another. However, I prefer to see self-consistency (or an honest change of heart) in people. But that's just me. Maybe others enjoy the anarchy. Anyway, I hope I haven't upset you too much with this nitpicking.

[Ashot]

No well-known member of the Armenian National Movement has any claim to government office, or any other position of public authority. LTP will run not on the ANM’s, or any other party’s ticket, but as a candidate nominated by a civil initiative. LTP's ultimate objective, and that of all political forces supporting him, is not to occupy high office, but solely to prevent the reproduction of Armenia’s current criminal regime. All they want is to have a normal, civilized state based on the rule of law, and to ensure the security, freedom and prosperity of our people, our children and grandchildren.

 

Therefore, to dispel any doubts about their motives, LTP formally declared the following: Exactly three years after assuming the office of the President of the Republic of Armenia, I will be prepared to forever retire from politics, giving you the opportunity to elect the country’s new President through a fully free and legitimate election. Further, I will not interfere in that election - it will be conducted by the Speaker of the National Assembly. I need three years to clean these Augean Stables, and put the state back on track. By “putting the state back on track,” I mean a comprehensive program of action, which I will present to you in future speeches and public statements.

 

If that were to be accomplished is exactly what I mean Twilight jan!!!

[Ashot]

I don't want to step on your toes too much Ashot, but I have to say that you are not being self-consistent. You say here that this topic is not for discussing who is the better or worse president, but for "what should be done". And then you proceeded to post about LTP's virtues (or lack of vices, or some such). You also chide everyone for talking while not being in Armenia. But your profile next to your posts indicate that you are in California. That's confusing to say the least. By the way, these are alright by me. I have no problem about going tangentially off the formal topic, or people discussing the politics of the homeland even if they have to live outside of it for one reason or another. However, I prefer to see self-consistency (or an honest change of heart) in people. But that's just me. Maybe others enjoy the anarchy. Anyway, I hope I haven't upset you too much with this nitpicking.

Thank you for clearing up what I have said previously, but what I was doing is only answering to what Sulamita has asked me!!! If you have noticed she wanted to know what good has LTP done... now, clearing that up I will say that I am not sitting in here and trying to tell people whose right or wrong... I am not judging any of the candidates, nor am I saying which one would be a better president for the people... If I were to say or judge the case then I would recommend myself to go there and do something about it... I am just sick and tired hearing the bad things about our former or present leaders or any of the politicians that have tried to do what they tought was good for Armenia and Armenians. Yes Twilight jan, I am in California and in a long process of preparing to move out back to Armenia, maybe then I can accomplish on doing something for my country and my people. If you have followed my posts, you will never find any of them that say who is a better man and who is not, I do accept anyone that will be the president of Armenia, but I don't accept the fact that people talk bad about others without taking the time to think twice, reconsider their facts, and see if the given person has done anything good or not... I hope I explained myself clearly enough, if there are questions that I haven't answered, please tell me and I will answer them!!!

[Johannes]

Alpha-ից ...

 

1. First of all I don’t intend to normalize relations with Turkey. The democratically elected president of the Republic of Armenia through means of constructive dialogue should lay the foundation of normalization. If England and France were able to normalize their relations after hundreds of years of hostility than I think there is a hope for Armenians and Turks too.

 

Ժողովրդավարացումը թուրքիայի եւ ազարպատլջանի հետ լաւ լինելու հետ կապ չունի: Այս փուճ գաղափարները սնանկացրել ենք, ես եւ գաղափարակիցներս այլուր: Այնպէս ասուել է, կարծէք, թուրքիան ի'նքը ժողովրդավարական երկիր է, եւ Հայաստանի հետ բնականոն յարաբերութիւն սկսելու համար, անհամբեր սպասում է, ժողովրդավարութեան իրականացմանը Հայաստանում: 1

 

2- թուրքիան ոչ Գերմանիա է, ոչ էլ Ֆրանսիա: Երկու համեմատեալների միջեւ նմանութիւն գտնելով՝ դիտելու, խնդիրների էութիւները ճանաչելով դատելու ձեր ընդունակութեան չգոյութիւնն էք վկայում: Ինչ՞ը ինչին էք նմանեցնում:

 

Վերոյիշեալ գաղափարները, մի տեղ, հըհըշըյական քարոզիչների կողմից բազմիցս թութակուելուց ետքը, առիթը Վրաստանի տարածքով երկաթուղու անցնելն էր, մի բարեկամ, շեշտակիօրէն հարցը դրեց.

 

«Ինչպէս է երեւակայում թուրքիայի հետ յարաբերութիւնների բարելաւումը, առանց Արցախը զիջելու»

 

Եւ...քար լռութիւն, տիրեց, ոչ ոք ձայնն ի ծպտուն չհանեց:

 

Ուրեմն, գիտցած չգիտցած, աբեղ ցբեղ խօսելէ զատ բան չեն գիտեր այս թութակբերանները:

 

Կամ՝

 

Համաձայն են անԱրցախ Հայաստանին, դրա համար օր ցերեկով սերմանում են «արցախցի-Հայաստանցի», «ղարաբաղցի-հայ» տարանջատումները, եւ պահանջում Արցախցի ղեկավարների վտարումը Հայաստանի Հանրապետութիւնից:

 

 

 

Aharonից

 

My opinion, not for LTP but for the country's stability, new elections should be called in the next 6-8 months ... I have no doubt LTP would lose!

 

No one doubts, but his team is too rude, to declare that LTP won the elections.

 

Եւ այսպէս, ազգի մեծամասնութեան կողմից մերժուած անձը ներկայացնում են, որպէս ընտրեալ նախագահ, ինչո՞վ են տարբերւում միւսներից, ումից գանգատւում են:

 

 

 

Quote from Mosjan

 

menak mi harts sireliner - yete voch SS - RQ kam LTP - apa ov ?? gone unenq mek@ ???

 

Արդէն շատ ուշ է: Եթէ Լ.Տ.Պ.ն չխանգարեր, գուցէ իսկական ընդդիմութիւնը, համեմատաբար մաքուր մարդիկ, համախմբուէին Վազգէն Մանուկեանի շուրջ, այնպէս որ եղաւ 1996ին:

 

 

 

Aratta Kingdom

 

Es depqum stipvats em inqs indz krknel- hark e mi @ndhanur xorhud stegtsel vor jamanakavorapes ir dzerq@ kvercni yerkrum kargu u kanon hastatelu harc@. Levon@ der xelqi chi eke u eli sharunakelu a ira gorts@-isk karavarutyun@ iren ojtvats iravunqnerov gortsi a dnelu cankacats mijoc levonin dznki berelu hamar.

 

Իմ լաւ բարեկամ, իսկ եթէ այդ խորհուրդում գտնւուի, այնպիսի ուժեղ անձնաւորութիւն, որ ընտրուի խորհուրդի նախագահ, ու ուզի բանեցնել իր կամքի բռնատիրութիւնը: Արդիւնքում կունենանք նոր սերժ-լեւոններ: Իրականում, Վազգէն Մանուկեանի նախընտրական ծրագրում կար երկրի կառավարումը նախագահականից, դէպի խորհրդարանական-պառլամենտական անցումը: Բայց ինչ օգուտ, եթէ մարդիկ էութեամբ նոյնն են մնում: Մեզ պէտք են նոր որակի մարդիկ, եւ համակարգի առողջացում, ժողովուրդի, հասարակական կազմակերպութիւնների վերահսկողութեան աւելացում եւ...լիքը լաւ խօսքեր, որ կարող ես գտնել ամենուրէք:

 

Alpha

 

Nationalism took a severe blow after the WW II

 

Do not mix Njdeh with Hitler.

 

Germany is not Armenia, and the comparison you are doing is nonsense.

 

Alpha

 

What’s your vision of Armenia and the model of development it should pursue? I see a lot of people here reject liberalism, but I don’t see the alternatives to it. To me the alternatives are isolationism and nationalism (we saw what it led to in 1920). Please educate

 

If it is important to take a model, then Armenians (we) can create their model, prophesying from Armenian history, culture and case.

 

What happened in 1920 has not affair with nationalism. Who is the nationalist in your opinion? The people who create his own independence after three years of Genocide? Who must educate? A piece of land on 10 percent of whole historical Armenia corbaned by turks and bolsheviks and you blaming the Armenian nationalist ? What you suppose them to do?

 

Quote from Alpha

 

My vision is having open communications and good relations with all countries in the region.

 

How? Is it just a desire? or, real policy?

 

 

 

Quotes from Hellector

 

Don't forget that fake "Azerbaijan" is also a landlocked country. Caspian is a lake, albeit the largest on earth. Besides, occupied Nakhijevan is even more blockaded as a result of ishek Turks' closing of borders.

 

Միայն թէ ռուսները համաձայնուեն, մի ամսից Ազարպատլջանը Վրաստանից եւ Ռուսաստանից կկտրուի, նոյն պահին Հայաստանը կունենայ իր հինգերորդ հարեւանը:

 

Never forget that they are absolutely not interested in opening it and never forget that Turks have never, and will never tolerate the existence of an Armenia of whichever shape, size and form. Each and every compromise from the Armenian side will encourage the inventors of genocide to demand more. They will never settle with anything less than the elimination of Armenia.

 

Այսքանը իմանալու համար երկու տող պատմութիւն կարդալը հերիք է, սակայն ըստ երեւոյթին, պատմական դէպքերից դաս քաղելու ընդունակութիւն չունենք, յանձինս alpha կոչուածի:

 

 

[Nané]

Explaining himself

 

Ashot, thank you for the information. Can you please cite your source(s)? Thank you.

[alpha]

Before I proceed with my comments I’d like to ask the audience to be more respectful and tolerant toward people with different views. Please stop name-calling otherwise the whole discussion will turn into a monologue.

 

How can we achieve normalization of relations with our neighbors a lot of people ask? I don’t think it’s impossible. Armenia can not ignore its neighbor which has 70= million people and $636 billion GDP. (Armenia’s GDP is $17 billion). Turkey is not an ideal democracy, but it’s a far more advanced democracy than Armenia. At least in Turkey it’s possible to change government through elections.

 

Armenian political elite can not close its eyes to the challenges the country faces because of closed borders. It’s imperative for development of the country, which stands at the doorstep of demographic catastrophe to have open communications with all its neighbors. It’s imperative to trade and import to a country which has one of the fastest growing economies of the world. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan ought to reject maximalism. Maximalism caused Azerbaijan to lose 7 regions around Artsax. What has maximalism got us in the past, loss of Kars and Sevres Treaty. I think lessons from the past should be learned thoroughly.

 

The topic here is Mr. Sarkissian vs. Mr. Ter-Petrossian. I’ll try not to deviate from it. Let’s discuss what each one is offering. Mr. Sarkissian is status quo. It’s true under current leadership Armenia’s economy developed rapidly and the quality of life has improved dramatically. One must be blind not to see all good changes. However, what Mr. Sarkissian is offering is maintaining status quo. Does not offer realistic compromises to our neighbors. Does not put forward opening of communication with our neighbors on the forefront of its platform. His political past is too murky. The guy has changed parties 3 times during the last 20 years. I’d like supporters of Mr. Sarkissian to answer the questions I posed in my previous post.

 

I am not a supporter of Mr. Ter-Petrossian, just because he is an intelligent person (I don’t think anybody disputes the fact that he is much more well-read than anybody in current Armenian leadership). I just support his liberal ideas. I see Armenia developing to become a beacon of democracy not a pariah state. It’s imperative for us to have open communications with our neighbors, even if we have to agree to some form of settlement of Artsax issue, where the region is a federal republic within Azerbaijan. If Armenia is not capable of populating the occupied territories, it has to come to realization than those lands are better off in the hands of Azerbaijan (it’s a bitter truth that’s hard to swallow), with appropriate security guarantees. Armenia’s economy can develop with a different trajectory if borders are open. The country needs access to world markets and Turkey provides it. Armenia needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Armenia. The population of Republic of Armenia is less than half than the population of Istanbul and the economy is less than 3% of Turkey’s.

[alpha]

How can you/I/Armenians not see that giving Karabagh back means that we'll lose our entire country as well?

 

Things are not as binary as people perceive. What do you mean Artsax is given back? No it can never become a region of Azerbaijan, like Lenkoran. It can be a federal republic with Azerbaijan, with its own tax collection, police force and other attributes of federalism. Our entire country will be lost if we maintain the status quo and the demographic picture does not improve.

[Anoushik]

Things are not as binary as people perceive. What do you mean Artsax is given back? No it can never become a region of Azerbaijan, like Lenkoran. It can be a federal republic with Azerbaijan, with its own tax collection, police force and other attributes of federalism. Our entire country will be lost if we maintain the status quo and the demographic picture does not improve.

Have you read the news today?

[alpha]

Have you read the news today?

 

Yes and that's an affirmation of the fact that without final peace agreement there will always be clashes.

[Anoushik]

Yes and that's an affirmation of the fact that without final peace agreement there will always be clashes.

There will never be a final peace agreement! Not when Turks and Azeris are involved. If what you are proposing came to realization then the next day the Azeris would organize a genocide against the Armenians! When will we learn from history???

[Parmenides]

Yes, lets bring back LTP as President and while we're at it, let us find Vano Siradeghyan and give him an important government position too. I'm sure Vano has done a good thing or two in his lifetime.

 

Who cares what Levon accomplished in the 80's? His big test came when he assumed power - and he failed miserably. Exile him at once. He'll do fine with the remainder of Soros' money.

[Ashot]

Hail to Parmenides, the smart of the smart has spoken!!!

Sorry I didn't realize you were here, or else I would've shut up about the case, oh smart one...

 

 

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Then what is nationalism for you - what do you understand when you say nationalism? Can you explain?

 

you are the one who raised the question. why don't you give us your defenition of nationalism (?)

[DominO123]

Then what is nationalism for you - what do you understand when you say nationalism? Can you explain?

 

I don't know, I just wanted a clarification on what you meant that is all.

[garmag]

... Turkey is not an ideal democracy, but it’s a far more advanced democracy than Armenia. At least in Turkey it’s possible to change government through elections.

.....

 

What a lot of rubbish is your statement as above !

The Turkish nationalism and her deep rooted kemalist/extremism continues unabated, with the blessing of her allies US/Israel.

 

How can Armenians rely on any agreements made either with Turkey or Azerbeijan that will be honored by them?

They have a proven record of reneging signed pacts and treaties with Armenia in the past, with so called guarentees backed by world powers. These same powers, that will pour down the drain the fate of small nations for their national interests.

 

You only have to look at what Turkey is doing presently to the KURDS in their country, as well as in northern Iraq.

Kurds that are their co-religionists...

 

Please consider this idea; the conflicts that exist between Turkish regimes versus Armenians or Kurds have only one thing in common!

That is, the Turkish policy of turkification of any ethnics in their sphere of influence, ( be it in Turkey or neighbouring countries)

TO KEEP THEM UNDER THEIR THUMBS, phisically and economically.

 

When was the last time Turkey or Azebeijan made any PUBLICISED GENUINE PROPOSALS that did not endanger the very existance of Armenia and Artsakh?

 

I do not profess to know what's to be done in Armenia today, but I do know that I will volunteer to go and fight for the preservation of Armenian homeland and culture no matter who the present ruler is.

 

A variety of rulers come and go, like fads according to the flavours of the period, what will stay is a homeland, as long as her people are dedicated in preserving her, with all the necessary sacrifices for this ultimate goal.

 

 

[Johannes]

Quotes from alpha & comments from me.

 

It's not a fortress that is at a constant war with it's neighbors

 

Reality, history and nowadays situation says us, that Armenia should be a fortress.

 

Ձեր նմանները ինձ յիշեցնում են թալյաթին եւ նրա նմաններին, որոնք զինաթափում էին հայերին, որպէսզի հեշտութեամբ մորթեն եւ Հայաստանը դարձնեն թուրքիա: Անոյշ-անոյշ խօսքերով, քաղցր օրօրներով ուզում էք քնացել հայերին...որ կը լինի երջանիկ մահ:

 

Turks are our neighbors and nothing can be done about it.

 

Absolutely.

 

Armenians and Turks have to learn to live next to each other and tolerate each other

 

That is good wishes, and I hope so. But reality is different and based under our historical experience.

 

After all, we can live next to each other, if we respect each other, and we can respect each other when we become at least enough powerful to not be conquered again.

 

Federalism has multiple levels, California is one example

 

Very good, but if we be Californians and those became Americans. But neither is we Californians, nor is they the same people, Americans. Did you ask artsaktsi Armenians whether they want that or not?

 

Other examples of federative states noteworthy of mentioning is Switzerland or former Soviet Union

 

Thank you, for comparing Swiss with Asians. However, Soviet Union was not a voluntary union, and Artsakh at that time was not a part of azerpatlican, but a part of Soviet Union, or if you want, a part of soviet azerpatlican.

 

The opposite of my view is the status quo

 

Not necessarily. In the world, every thing changes. Living nations work to direct the changes; to affirm their goals.

 

How will it solve the problems of people living in Armenia? What's the vision of Armenia the status quo leads to

 

The time will solve the problems of people living in Armenia. And the time shows us the development. Please do not talk about corruption, because it does not affair with Artsakh and the relationship between Armenia and Turkey. And about Artsakh problem, I do not see a problem. If is there a problem, it is the keeping of ceasefire. After, as in other places in the world, they will accept our status quo, not their imagination "quo".

 

Quotes from Twilight Bark

 

I fully agree that Armenia needs to be a place that provides a bright future for its children. That's not negotiable. However, if the physical well-being of individual Armenians is the only issue of overriding importance, Armenians are already achieving that in "California". What difference does it make if they assimilate, or lead pointless (from a national perspective) lives, in "California" versus in the geographical region of Armenia, the Turkish protectorate? Preserving the geographical name "Armenia" on the map without any real substance behind it is a pointless activity

 

As we saw above, he, alpha, insults any ideology which is based on national issues. At the same time, he is mixing between nationalism and patriotism in a side, and Nazism in the other side.

 

Yet. Even if time is indeed running out in that department (which I am afraid it might be), I don't see the point of acting as if it already happened.

 

The idea that the time is working against us is fabricated by who lost the war. hopelessly, they are trying to win the propaganda war, because in the battlefield they lost. And our "liberals" trust them. As you said TB, it is wrong to act as if it is already happened. It is their wish.

 

Հաւը երազին մէջ կորկոտ կը տեսնէ:

 

Why are Georgian relations so neglected? Shouldn't we work on Georgia full-press before turning over the keys to Turkey?

 

Exactly, especially we have about 400 thousand "diasporans" there.

 

Why are we so obsessed about Turkey, one way or the other?

 

Because of the long and strong propaganda of "heheshe".

Edited March 5, 2008 by Johannes

[Johannes]

Quotes from alpha & comments from me.

 

With no borders with Russia Armenia has effectively become a Russian protectorate.

 

More safe than the one with border.

 

Open borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan gives alternatives to trading routes, opens consumer markets, just to name a few of the advantages

 

Այո, կարճաժամկէտ յաջողութիւն եւ հարստութիւն, երկարաժամկէտ...ենթակայութիւն թուրքին:

 

There are a lot of conflicts within the Turkish society as well. It was only a year or so ago when hundreds of thousands of Turks gathered in Istanbul and chanted “We are Armenians”

 

Because most of them had Armenian ancestors, even if they are now not Armenians. Plus on them the Kurds. And why not? A few turks. Turkey population is above 70 millions.

 

I don’t think it’s a secret to anyone that Greeks passionately hate Turks, but that doesn’t hinder development of normal relations

 

Գիտես, սակայն չգիտնալ կը ձեւացնես, որ սահմանը փակողը թուրքիան է եւ ոչ Հայաստանը:

 

 

 

Quotes from Aratta Kingdom

 

You mean to say Wilsonian Armeina was lost in wars? How much do you know about the deal between Lenin and Ataturk?

 

Գիտեմ թէ ինչպէս լենին հռչակեց յեղափոխութիւն, տուն կանչեց ռուս զինւորներ, Արեւմտեան Հայաստան մնաց անպաշտպան, փոքրաթիւ կամաւորներ պատերազմեցան, սակայն չդիմանալով՝ հերթով յանձնեցին Երզնկայ-Կարին-Կարս եւ այսպէս բաներ: Կարս, Իգդիր, Օլթի, Արտահան, արեւելեան Հայաստանի մաս կը կազմէր, սակայն թուրքեր մի կողմից նեղեցին, բոլշեւիկներ միւս կողմից:

 

Ամէն կողմ միւս կողմի հետ կարող է համաձայնագիր ստորագրել եւ դաւեր լարել, սակայն սա չի նշանակում, որ մեր բախտը օտար պաշտպանողի պիտի վստահել: Բայց այդ ժամանակ Հայ ժողովուրդը ինքնորոյն պետութիւն չունէր, տակաւին նոր կստեղծուէր, որպէսզի կարենար կայացած բանակով իր հողերը պաշտպաներ:

 

 

[Hellektor]

Therefore, to dispel any doubts about their motives, LTP formally declared the following: Exactly three years after assuming the office of the President of the Republic of Armenia, I will be prepared to forever retire from politics, giving you the opportunity to elect the country’s new President through a fully free and legitimate election. Further, I will not interfere in that election - it will be conducted by the Speaker of the National Assembly. I need three years to clean these Augean Stables, and put the state back on track. By “putting the state back on track,” I mean a comprehensive program of action, which I will present to you in future speeches and public statements.

Ashot jan,

 

Since your grudging post came after mine without quoting and since you seem to be sympathetic to Levin Peterstein, I take the liberty to write this.

 

We have the right to express ourselves on forums. Our being outside Armenia gives us more legitimacy and proves our concern for our homeland even when we are sitting "on [our] cozy chairs in a nice room and command the world". It's another story that what we say is appreciated by everyone or not. Topics will go off track as naturally as when you talk with your friends, you start from music, you go to the situation in the world, you talk about the AG, about your financial problems (or the lack thereof), and ainsi de suite. for my part I have explained that Serge or Robert may (or may not) be thieves, but what Armenia needs today is security and stability not Jewmockracy.

 

Levin Peterstein is a filthy traitor. He wants three years to cede the liberated territories to sore fukking fake "Azerbaijan" losers and perpetrators of genocide and war. Levin held ten days of unauthorized rallies, while Robert said it on TV that he invited them to get authorization which would be kindly given. Levin didn't do that to shrug off any responsibility for the consequence of his turning our vartaguyn Yerevan into a brothel. Look how the image of Armenia, considered one of the best among the post Soviet states has plunged as low as it could.

 

The Zionist West will use this as pretext to weaken our position in Artsakh issue. This is the result of Levin's high treason. I have already seen articles that capitalize on this. There is a wedding party going on in the asses of Jews and Turks for what Levin did to Armenia. Search for this:

 

"The Armenian government has lost all credibility as a democracy," says Terry Phillips, author of "Murder at the Altar" (Hye Books, 2008). "This suspicious vote and the subsequent use of force is history repeating itself."

 

The footages, however faked you might believe, CLEARLY show the thugs are throwing petrol bombs, bricks and stones at the police who are our own brothers. The footage CLEARLY shows they are all armed with sticks and rods even if you would contend the fire arms and grenades were planted by the regime. The looted and vandalized shops CLEARLY show the thugs did not have a grain of decency or any politically motivated agenda. The burned and damaged cars, busses, and ambulances show that the rascals were not on to peaceful protests. If you do not want to see all this because of your hatred of Serge and Robert's "clan", then I really don't know what to say.

 

The vandals were highly organized and armed and were ASKING for it since the whole bordel began. There's no denying this, on whoever's side you might be on. The person responsible for all this is Levin.

 

Fake "Azerbaijan" used the commotion and tested the level our alertness. This is Levin's fault.

 

So where the hell is the chickenshit? Where the hell is that unworthy son of Karen that retard clown Stepan or the unworthy son of Richard, the fatass Raffi? Where the hell are those who brought this sinister tragedy to our fragile state?

 

Death penalty can be brought back in extreme cases in some countries where it has been abolished. It should be brought back and Levin should be hanged in the city square for high treason.