Turanian - Urartians?

[HyeFedayis]

It seems Armenians are a mix of Turanian and Indo-European.

 

Armens = Indo-Europeans

Urartians = Turanian

 

"According to most accounts, the Armens were generally tall, blond-haired, and blue-eyed in appearance, in contrast to their Urartian cousins who tended to be slighter with black hair and black eyes." (Source: Elisabeth Bauer. Armenia: Past and Present, p. 49. ISBN B0006EXQ9C)

 

"Some scholars also see in Urartean art, architecture, language and general culture traces of kinship to the Etruscans of the Italian peninsula" (Source: A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian p.19)

 

"The capital city of the Urarda was Van, on the eastern shores of the lake, and here it was that the kings set up the most remarkable of their inscriptions. The

language of these inscriptions is of a Turanian type, and, though it may have furnished the non-Arian clement in the modern Armenian, cannot have been" (Source: The Story of Parthia - Page 122 by George Rawlinson)

 

"The people were certainly of the Turanian race, and came from the Armenian mountains." (Source: The History of Herodotus: A New English Version - Page 424

by Herodotus)

 

Also Etruscans were Turanian.

[hagopn]

It seems Armenians are a mix of Turanian and Indo-European.

 

Armens = Indo-Europeans

Urartians = Turanian

 

"According to most accounts, the Armens were generally tall, blond-haired, and blue-eyed in appearance, in contrast to their Urartian cousins who tended to be slighter with black hair and black eyes." (Source: Elisabeth Bauer. Armenia: Past and Present, p. 49. ISBN B0006EXQ9C)

 

"Some scholars also see in Urartean art, architecture, language and general culture traces of kinship to the Etruscans of the Italian peninsula" (Source: A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian p.19)

 

"The capital city of the Urarda was Van, on the eastern shores of the lake, and here it was that the kings set up the most remarkable of their inscriptions. The

language of these inscriptions is of a Turanian type, and, though it may have furnished the non-Arian clement in the modern Armenian, cannot have been" (Source: The Story of Parthia - Page 122 by George Rawlinson)

 

"The people were certainly of the Turanian race, and came from the Armenian mountains." (Source: The History of Herodotus: A New English Version - Page 424

by Herodotus)

 

Also Etruscans were Turanian.

 

 

Elizabeth Bauer is not a specialist. She's a nice inspirational author who obviously loved Armenians, but she did not know the topic well enough to make serious comments.

 

There is no such thing as a "Turanian race."

 

Therefore, the Etruscans were not "Turanian"

 

Turan is a semi-mythical name of "kinfolk to the Aryan" and it probably refers to the Tocharians.

 

I've posted this, but here's a good (but still somewhat biased) article on Turan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan

 

Wiki is mostly "consensus" nonsense, but some of it is full of good reference.

 

As to Kurkjian, my opinion is that he is a fine professor and lecturer, but not a scientific historian.

 

Rawlinson is an old source that worked to take Armenians out of Armenia as well. Greenmantle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenmantle is the epitome of this British Turkophile trend (which connects everything in Central Asia and Asia Minor with the mythical "Turan", which has no scientific basis). Christopher Walker, a really good scholar in the modern Armenian periods, has a critique on this trend entitled Greenmantle's Missing Armenians. I would highly recommend you read it.

 

Herodotus is almost always wrong when it comes to Armenian history. The "migration of Armenians" idea ides out when Armenian like languages, such as Luwian, Hatti (hittite) and so on are found in Armenia and Asia Minor up to the 3rd millennium and easily beyond. Herodotus' outlandish claims about Armenians have been long ago discredited.

Edited October 25, 2007 by hagopn

[LionHeart]

Wiki is mostly "consensus" nonsense, but some of it is full of good reference.

 

Hagob, you can edit Wikipedia if you have all that knowledge, good sources, and time. Currently, Armenian related articles are filled with pro-Turkish anti-Armenian nonsense.

[Arpa]

Hagob, you can edit Wikipedia if you have all that knowledge, good sources, and time. Currently, Armenian related articles are filled with pro-Turkish anti-Armenian nonsense.

I have had reservations about "wiki" ever since the first day. I try to avoid using it as scholarly reference, except at sometime it may contain references to good sources. I still remember when one of our correspondents came back and proudly annnounced that he has just added another "armenian" recipe to the list on wiki. He had just added "turdish coffee" to the list of so called Armenian recipes. Huh !

We need scholarly entries that cannot be manipulated and edited.I mean scholarly. Not things like "Haik came from Babylon" kind of rubbish.

[VartanM]

You guys are all welcome to join us. Armenian articles are in dire need of attention and good writing.

[Arpa]

You guys are all welcome to join us. Armenian articles are in dire need of attention and good writing.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY. AS LONG AS WE CANNOT TELL WHO THE WRITERS ARE AND WHAT THEIR CREDENTIALS, I MIGHT AS WELL LEARN ARMENOLOGY FROM THAT WORLD RENOWN MICKEY-PEDIA KNOWN AS MICKEY-MOUSE-IA.

[LionHeart]

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY. AS LONG AS WE CANNOT TELL WHO THE WRITERS ARE AND WHAT THEIR CREDENTIALS, I MIGHT AS WELL LEARN ARMENOLOGY FROM THAT WORLD RENOWN MICKEY-PEDIA KNOWN AS MICKEY-MOUSE-IA.

 

Well, I don't edit Wiki due to time constraints, but from what I have seen, as long as you have good sources and know the rules, the authors' credentials are irrelevant. Right now youngsters searching for Armenia primarily read the Wiki article, so it needs some attention.

 

[Anoushik]

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY. AS LONG AS WE CANNOT TELL WHO THE WRITERS ARE AND WHAT THEIR CREDENTIALS, I MIGHT AS WELL LEARN ARMENOLOGY FROM THAT WORLD RENOWN MICKEY-PEDIA KNOWN AS MICKEY-MOUSE-IA.

Arpa, the fact is that Wikipedia is very popular. I'm glad that we have interested and caring people like VartanM who are trying their very best to provide readers with Armenia related articles. I, for one, am a big fan of Wikipedia, and if I don't watch the clock I could spend hours jumping from one article to another in Wikipedia.

[HyeFedayis]

Elizabeth Bauer is not a specialist. She's a nice inspirational author who obviously loved Armenians, but she did not know the topic well enough to make serious comments.

 

There is no such thing as a "Turanian race."

 

Therefore, the Etruscans were not "Turanian"

 

Turan is a semi-mythical name of "kinfolk to the Aryan" and it probably refers to the Tocharians.

 

I've posted this, but here's a good (but still somewhat biased) article on Turan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan

 

Wiki is mostly "consensus" nonsense, but some of it is full of good reference.

 

As to Kurkjian, my opinion is that he is a fine professor and lecturer, but not a scientific historian.

 

Rawlinson is an old source that worked to take Armenians out of Armenia as well. Greenmantle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenmantle is the epitome of this British Turkophile trend (which connects everything in Central Asia and Asia Minor with the mythical "Turan", which has no scientific basis). Christopher Walker, a really good scholar in the modern Armenian periods, has a critique on this trend entitled Greenmantle's Missing Armenians. I would highly recommend you read it.

 

Herodotus is almost always wrong when it comes to Armenian history. The "migration of Armenians" idea ides out when Armenian like languages, such as Luwian, Hatti (hittite) and so on are found in Armenia and Asia Minor up to the 3rd millennium and easily beyond. Herodotus' outlandish claims about Armenians have been long ago discredited.

 

Yeah that is true, I am sure if something like this was true, there already would have been many scholars today bringing it up. Also many scholars or historians or researchers use ancient sources like Herodotus.

[LionHeart]

Arpa, the fact is that Wikipedia is very popular. I'm glad that we have interested and caring people like VartanM who are trying their very best to provide readers with Armenia related articles. I, for one, am a big fan of Wikipedia, and if I don't watch the clock I could spend hours jumping from one article to another in Wikipedia.

 

Do you contribute there as well, anoushik? VartanM and others need many other Armenians to join them in improving those articles. I wish I had the time.

 

[HyeFedayis]

btw Azeris spy on these forums, so it is best to pm eachother about this. If you want to help eachother out on that site.

[VartanM]

Thank you Anoushik. Azeris can spy as much as they want. The truth is that Wikipedia lacks Armenian articles not necessarily connected to Azeris. Two time Olympic champion Albert Azaryan's article was only created yesterday.

 

There are many more that need creation or expansion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wik...s_to_be_created

[hagopn]

Hagob, you can edit Wikipedia if you have all that knowledge, good sources, and time. Currently, Armenian related articles are filled with pro-Turkish anti-Armenian nonsense.

 

My changes on Wiki have been changed back to the "consensus" many times. Adil Shit-Baguirov is still active along with his government sponsored criminals.

 

We should form a team for this. I don't see anything serious being done yet.

[VartanM]

Actually Adil is on a 1 year "vacation" and wont be back until next August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AdilBaguirov

[VartanM]

sorry HyeFedayis for hijacking your thread

[hagopn]

Actually Adil is on a 1 year "vacation" and wont be back until next August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AdilBaguirov

 

Yeah, "banned"-ation. ---

[Hellektor]

I have always had a bad feeling about wiki as far as Armenian and Turkish matters are concerned. The Turks are heavily into wikipedophilia and won't lose a chance fabricating worthless, baseless crap and no one seems to care to remove the garbage (Of course I don't know which part of this post is from wiki).

 

It seems Armenians are a mix of Turanian and Indo-European.

 

Armens = Indo-Europeans

Urartians = Turanian

This is pure horsedung. What is IndoEuropean anyway?

 

Armenians are kind of sensitive about their civilization having European characteristics. If the term was Indo-African we wouldn't give a semi-flying duck. These are all artificial terms with little significance.

 

I have many a time posted the definition of the Turanian Fallacy so I won't copy/paste it here. Once more:

 

Turanians are not Turks

 

The Turkish virus originated in Mongolia and spread like cancer in Central Asia AFTER the 6th century Anno Domini. The kingdom of Van spanned from the 9th century BC to about the seventh century BC, at least eleven centuries, mind you, one thousand and one hundred years before the filthy hoofs of the Turkish locust desecrated the steppes of Central Asia and destroyed and turkified the Turanians, i.e. the Iranian races living there.

 

A nation called Urartians NEVER existed. Urartu is the name given to Armenia by Akkadians. This is confirmed by Darius the Great's (522-486 BC) trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Bistoon, Behistun), near Kermanshah, where he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Akkadian and relates that he had to attack Armenia five times to suppress the Armenians to subjugate them. Carved in stone.

 

"According to most accounts, the Armens were generally tall, blond-haired, and blue-eyed in appearance, in contrast to their Urartian cousins who tended to be slighter with black hair and black eyes." (Source: Elisabeth Bauer. Armenia: Past and Present, p. 49. ISBN B0006EXQ9C)

Bulllllllshiiiiiit. "tall, blond-haired, and blue-eyed... black hair and black eyes"... what is this? Where do they get this sort of fantastic crapola? "According to most accounts" Whose most accounts, retarded Turds?

 

"Some scholars also see in Urartean art, architecture, language and general culture traces of kinship to the Etruscans of the Italian peninsula" (Source: A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian p.19)

The problem here is that they shamelessly quote credited scholars and weave fantasy tales. Kurkjian doesn't conclude that because "Some scholars see in Urartean art, architecture, language and general culture traces of kinship to the Etruscans of the Italian peninsula" therefore, they are Turks.

 

We all know it. The most worthless species of vicious, atrocious civilization destroying virus that goes by the four letter word Turk, claims all the civilizations of the world and beyond. In twisted, perverted, depraved Turkish ass for brains Sumerians, Arameans, Greeks, Parthians, Elamites, Manni, Arrata, Medians, Achaemenids, Aluanians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Lydians, Phrigians, Scythians, Eskimos, Native Americans, Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, Martians, Saturnans, Jupiterians, Out of the Milky Wayans, Parallel Universians are all Turks of course...

 

"The capital city of the Urarda was Van, on the eastern shores of the lake, and here it was that the kings set up the most remarkable of their inscriptions. The language of these inscriptions is of a Turanian type, and, though it may have furnished the non-Arian clement in the modern Armenian, cannot have been" (Source: The Story of Parthia - Page 122 by George Rawlinson)

The sentence is incomplete. Again, a respected scholar is named and all sorts of cock and bull stories are regurgitated around it. What the hell is wrong with these parasites? non-Arian = Turanian = Turkish. Phukk off.

 

"The people were certainly of the Turanian race, and came from the Armenian mountains." (Source: The History of Herodotus: A New English Version - Page 424

by Herodotus)

The word Turan or Turanian does not appear in Herodotus as far as I know. Man these cockroaches are brazen.

 

Also Etruscans were Turanian.

Proof mofo proof! (Still, Turanians are not Turks).

 

[HyeFedayis]

You guys should work to rename Urartu page:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu

 

To maybe Kingdom of Ararat or something.

[Anoushik]

Do you contribute there as well, anoushik? VartanM and others need many other Armenians to join them in improving those articles. I wish I had the time.

No, unfortunately I don't, LionHeart. The whole process of editing/creating articles seems a bit complicated to me. I don't know the codes. But if I have more time on my hands I'm willing to consider learning more about how Wikipedia works.

[HyeFedayis]

Its simple, never cuss, never say anything bad about them, be neutral and nice. And with that you can have a good wiki editing time, but the Azeris will accuse of sock puppetry and annoy you, so stay out of conflicts.

[hagopn]

Actually Adil is on a 1 year "vacation" and wont be back until next August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AdilBaguirov

 

Oh, I forgot to mention that Adil is not the only source of "censorship."

 

I added a line in the Hittite Language article that said simply, "Linguists Sturtevant, W. Austin, archeologists Jensen, Mordtmann, and so on supported the idea that the Armenians were a native Anatolian people with similar ethnic background as the Hatti, the Luwian, and Lycian, and so on. This was erased not by Adil, but by our own scholars whose names I will not disclose.

 

Check out what linguist William Austin says about Hittite (Lycian as well) and Armenian: [Armenian, like Hittite, Luwian, and Lycian, retains the third laryngeal initially, and has no inherited long vowels, no palatal-velar distinction, and no feminine gender. These and other archaisms lead to the conclusion that Armenian is an Anatolian language and can be compared to more advantage with Lycian and Hittite than with the IE languages proper.]

 

In any case, the Wiki deal and the need to start a team is a given. Yet, when an accredited scholar barges in, they get priority even in cases where you secondary sources (i.e. only other accredited scholars) as counter-evidence. In the case of the Hittite article, I was shot down and my entries deleted without my knowledge or consent. The consensus requirement is a loophole that only so-called accredited academia can jump through. This is yet another form of censorship of theory that counters the mainstream (politicized) views. Any reference that deals with the Armenian connection is entirely refused even though each and every one of the citations was of an accredited scholar from high profile university, each one of whom were non-Armenians.

 

 

[HyeFedayis]

From the Urartu wiki page they removed a important section:

 

"Urartu was often called the "Kingdom of Ararat" in many ancient manuscripts and holy writings of different nations. The reason for uncertainty in the names (i.e. Urartu and Ararat) is due to variations in sources. In fact, the written languages at that time employed only [[consonants]] and not [[vowels]]. So the word itself in various ancient sources is written as "RRT", which could be either Ararat, or Urartu, or Uruarti and so on (for more on the name's etymology, see the section [[urartu#Name|Name]] below)."

[hagopn]

I cannot believe I forgot this one very significant part:

 

This string of evidence that connect the semi-legendary "Turan" with the Aryan cousins of the Iranians is important to note:

 

1. In the Avesta it is remembered that the first king to adopt Zartusht's religion and fight to spread it was named Goshtasp or Koshtasp (in some decipherments as Vashtasp).

 

2. In one of (i)Tiglath-Pileser's (Assyrian king) chronicles from circa 740 b.c. he remembers fighting a certain king named Koshtasp of the land of Kummukhi, which is described as a land roughly corresponding to the north-east bank of the Euphrates, south-west Armenia.

 

3. In Armenian history we know of Kamakh, sometimes remembere das Kumakh, and later in history ws Ani Bert or, during Bagrtuni times as Ani-Kamakh Bert in that same territory.

 

4. It is remembered that Kummukh was also a center for the Hayassa federation.

 

5. Koshtasp of Kummukh is also said to have fought the Hayauni (the hay) in the Avesta, who power is centered in "Turan," which is also remembered as having been associated with the verenation of the "god Hepa" or the "sacred and maternal Cow."

 

As suggested by quite a few Avestologists, this "Turan" is more likely a corruption of Tauron, Tavron, or Taron. Taron is a derivative of Tavron, "land of the bovine [cow or bull]."

 

 

 

[Arpa]

Hagop, remember when a couple of days ago, speaking about “khrtvilak”, I said- “you barged in like a ‘bul in a china shop’”?

You have not changed at all. Neither do we want you to change

===

5. Koshtasp of Kummukh is also said to have fought the Hayauni (the hay) in the Avesta, who power is centered in "Turan," which is also remembered as having been associated with the verenation of the "god Hepa" or the "sacred and maternal Cow."

 

As suggested by quite a few Avestologists, this "Turan" is more likely a corruption of Tauron, Tavron, or Taron. Taron is a derivative of Tavron, "land of the bovine [cow or bull]."

Look below re bull/tavar and tuarus .

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10...aurus&st=40

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?act=Search&a...ghlite=%2Btavar

Pleas stay as that “bull in the china shop”, we need more “bovines” like to wake those sheep up, those sheep who have , for the past 2000 years sheepishly abandoned scientific historiography and instead replaced it with (alien)myths and hearsay.

Ironically , modern historiography was rekindled by none other than a servant of the church, the Mkhitarist, Mikael Chamichian, even if he still sheepishly regurgitates many of those myths and corrupted so called history, yet he does open a new chapter of “scientific” historiography. I was flabbergasted to see his take on Lousavorich’s biography (I may come back to that some day.)

Any way. We need new “bulls” to break some of those ossified relics that masquerade as history and open a whole new chapter of scientific historiography and dig up hard evidence, even if at times we may hit real “dirt”, rather than mouthing another peoples’ mythology as our own “history”.

We are so ossified in our smug so called history that people like Martiros Kavukjian are summarily dismissed and even ridiculed. More and evidence is being discovered that Zratasht, Zartusht/Zarathustra/Zoroaster may heve been Armenian, yet we rejected him for that, “taluk/ pallid” alien prophet. Speaking of which Jesus himself said the following in Matt.. 13,57;

57Եւ նրանով գայթակղւում էին։ Իսկ Յիսուս նրանց ասաց. «Չկայ անարգուած մարգարէ, բայց միայն՝ իր գաւառում եւ իր տանը»։

57] And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Arpa

[HyeFedayis]

Turan in ancient Iranian was for Central Asia, I think that is most accurate.