sen_Vahan Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 SAS, I agree with you and I am glad somebody here is positive and optimistic! I don't understand why the current president should resign as one mentioned here i remember. To protect human rights, etc we can create institutions to work it out but not change the president or the parliament. alpha, I am talking to armenians (my relatives, friends, etc) from Armenia and what they say is the opposite to what you posted - it's very safe in the city and don't have to worry to walk outside at night. If you check how many people are assasinated in Washington D.C. every month you will find it enormously higher than that in Armenia. Moreover, it will be even higher than in criminal Moscow. So, lets not exaggerate. It is right and honest to rise the voice agianst the corruption or criminal in the country but wrong to start with changing the president. How I understand the change now is more problems with Artsax issue and who knows what changes in economy. As for the well known joke, it is very typical to armenians to put differences among ourselves which constantly devides and subdevides people. Inch verabervum e "protestnerin" ev dimumnerin depi ayl erkrneri despannerin, da ugaki avelord ban e, inch karik ka varkabekel erkir@, namanavand vor ches gtnvum erkrum: Herviz hesht e khosel@, bayz aregakin petk e motikiz nayel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARR Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by alpha:The October 27 was not organized by “5 crazy romantics” as Kocharian’s junta projects, but it was a meticulously organized assassination that gave “Artsax clan” unchecked powers in Yerevan. There is a popular joke among Yerevanians, “Artsax zavoeval 20% Azerbaijana i 100% Armenii”. Alpha, Why are you making a libel? Do you think you can proof your claims in a court if you had too? Please ask these questions to yourself. If you think you can, than you have a moral obligation to do so because murder is a serious crime. If not, then you are nothing more than a blab. It is apparent that you prefer Ararati clan vs. "Karabaki clan", but don’t you dare separate Artsakh from Armenia. We all know that legally Artsakh is not part of Armenia yet, but de-facto it is. Armenia or Hayastan refers to the all land where Armenian population is indigenous. Finally Artsakh, especially in the last 4 centuries played a sentral role in the fate of Armenian people and was the birthplayce of many people whose names make us proud to be Armenian. And it will continue to play along with Shirak, Suinik, Kotayk, Tavush, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Good Morning "INCHPES TE CHKAN ?? uremn yerb vostikan @ qez kangnatsnum yev *$ e vertnum da ok e ??" Mosjan, sa che miak problem@, aveli lurg baner el kan, bayz da chi nshanakum, vor petk e sksel prezident u parlament poxelov: Ed pog pokel@ shat aveli zargazaz e Vrastanum, Adrbeganum, Rusastanum,etc, bayz inch arats, gamanak e petk... I will follow Azat's suggestion to type in english. Once a broad middle class is formed in our country those stupid things will disappear, Mosjan, because the middle class citizen making the core of the society will pay taxes and it will be hard for any policemen or similar to ask for money at each step. I can bring an example - even in late 90s people in Moscow openning their small businesses were constantly harassed by "reket", police, tagayin, fire department,etc all asking money for no damn reason and people had to pay. But today the opinion is changed among folks and it is like "Tog porzen hankart gan u mi ban asen, es tax em mutsum u voch mi zibil el irank chen stana, orenk' im kogmn e". That was a little progress in Russia's capital but it did not start to work in provinces yet. Armenia is smaller than Moscow region and it would be much faster to develop. "te zavak@t tsarayum e isk dzer Xujuji tran voch vortev ira papan Xujujn e da ok e ??? ehhhh Vahan jan ka yev petqe lini yete uzum eq vro araj gnanq / " Haskanum em... But those xugug-mugug will lose their importance soon. Several people from Armenia Central Bank visiting Michigan recently explained me what is going on now. Those xugug-mugug,etc had relatively big amount of $ and influence but what happened is that some Russian Armenian businessmen came to Armenia having several if not more orders of magnitude more $ than those domestics, which obviously shifted the influence - xugugner' anzan 2rd plan. Now when the law for double citizenship is accepted businessmen having even more $ than those from Russia will go and invest there from US and Europe. (I emphasize 2 citizenship meaning that those will be mainly armenians) "Vahan yete mitq@t jisht haskatsa - uremn ov vor aprum e Hayaastanum - asxhatum - yerexa unenum - goyatevum na e ir yev iyd yerkri jakatagri ter@??? " Absolutely, diaspora must feel and understand its irrelevance unless it takes part in the social and political development of the country. You and me and similars , Mosjan, than came here during last 10 or 15 years are still emotionally bound to the homeland and it is hard for us to imagine that we are really nothing for the country that she lives and developes without us - sad but true. I would agree that maybe among those who left were probably bests as well but so what? Kocharyan had a conversation with my good tsanot-kharabagzi when Robert became the naxagah of NKR. He said that yes it is maybe rediculous that he became the president but that happened because those all xelazis and tagands left the country. And if some of those here today want to be redeveloped and get political influence there should better go buy some vodka and relax - poezd ushel... "iyd depkum inchu enq xosum @edhanrapes ?? yev mer spyurqi Hayer@ ardarev iravunq chunen ?? " Iharke chunen, ev inchu piti unenan, shat el vor hay en... Lets see, Mosjan, how things go when it is possible to get 2 citizeship, we'll see how diasporans take part in country's life. "tekuz yev mtatselu popoxutyan masin - de yete iydpes e - el inchu enq xosum -inchpes urrin yev bardin - amen mard iren baxten - ardaratsy em te voch ??? " That's exactly what the problem is - we only talk and we can talk why not - free country. Sooooorrrrry for a long talk but I may do that I am currently a diasporan although a ctizen of Armenia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 ehhhh ~~~ Vahan jan yes dem chem qo asatsin - sakayn dem em mer jorovrdy mtatselakerpin - mi poq@r orinak berem - yerek - 24jam Hyakakan TV tsuytser talis te inchpes mi xumb Hayer Sacramento te san fransisco Rusakan despanatan araj "Boroqi" tsuyts eyin anum - Bravum - batsakanchum te Qocharyani hrajarakan@ - te irents halatsel en - te espes te enpes - te et yerkrum aprel chi linum - yev gites inch n@rantsits 2 janachum em - enpes eyin bravum yev gorum - boroqum - qich mnats irenq irents mazer@ pokeyin - bayst irakanutyan mej miyayn yev miyayn enter eyi vro video camerayov n@karveyin tsuytsi jaman vor INS dataran taneyin irents het te teseq menq - tsuytsi eyinq gnatsel - yev irents hajorvets - iyn Hyakakan Tv tsuyts tvets irents tsuytsi jamanak yev vorpes past sa n@ranq ogtagortselu en -hima et 30-40 tsutsararnerits qanisn en jisht hogatsav tsuyts anum yev qanis@ sut ??? es tesak banerits sksats petqe poxvi jorovurd@. apakanum en voch miyayn irenst anun@ iyl nayev irents azgi - cheq uzum aprel Hayastan haskanali e sakayn inchu eq sut baner durs talsi yev dzer mi por hatsy yev apahov taniqi hamar sut tsuytser anum - ( xosq@ verabervum e yerekva tsuytsin) sxal em vro asum em jorovurd@ petqe poxvi ???arajin@ jorovurd@ petqe gitaktsy te inq@ inch e uzzum - te inchi hamar e aprum - te ir apagan inch e linelu - yerb voroshi - iyd jamanak el ir mej tor sxalner gtni, yes el et jorovrdi mi masn em - yes el im sxalner@ unem - voch meks el IDALAKAN chenq yev ansxal - yev yek chmorananq nayev vor mer lidernern el mer mejits en durs galsi - jorovrdi.poxvel petq e / anhrajesht e / sksats porotsum axp tapeluts - verchatsrats harkayin tesuchin kashareluts. petq e ! nad!@ fedya nada [ March 22, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: MosJan ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 In the same way many-many armenians get or try to get US citizenship writing letters against their own country, such as they were harrased there for different reasons. And that is all not true. This tells me that we are people with no sense of the state and a country, just a banch of ****** pretending to be the center of the universe. This is something that needs to be changed in our minds. Another example is those **** making protests against Armenian elections , etc in different countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan:In the same way many-many armenians get or try to get US citizenship writing letters against their own country, such as they were harrased there for different reasons. And that is all not true. This tells me that we are people with no sense of the state and a country, just a banch of ****** pretending to be the center of the universe. This is something that needs to be changed in our minds. Another example is those **** making protests against Armenian elections , etc in different countries.Debil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 What else did you learn , nedouchka? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 MJ, you sound like a spoiled kid. LOL )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun:MJ, you sound like a spoiled kid. LOL ))OK. But you sound like another debil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by Sasun:MJ, you sound like a spoiled kid. LOL ))OK. But you sound like another debil.LOL Good night baby... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Due to time constraints I will reply more thoroughly at some other time. However I'd let the posting from RFE/RL to speak for the me, and would like to ask you, the supporters of the regime in Armenia, the following: How can you support criminals? It seems like we are grooming our little Stalinik and Beria in Armenia. Are we going to just go around our business in free world, or we are going to support the voices of democracy in Armenia? Just a question to ponder about. Arrests Of Armenian Opposition Supporters Continue By Shakeh Avoyan The Armenian opposition said on Saturday that dozens of its supporterswere rounded up overnight for their participation in Friday's massprotest against President Robert Kocharian's controversial reelection inthe recent presidential run-off. Some of them were facing closed trials in central Yerevan, in a furthersign of a renewed government crackdown on supporters of defeatedpresidential candidate Stepan Demirchian who continues to accuseKocharian of rigging the vote. Opposition sources told RFE/RL that at least 30 people were detained bythe police following Friday's anti-Kocharian rally. `This list is notfinal. We keep getting the names of more and more arrested people,' saidDustrik Mkhitarian, a senior activist at Demirchian's campaignheadquarters. Another top oppositionist, parliament deputy Emma Khudabashian, put thenumber of detainees at 45. She said 15 of them were sentenced to between3 and 15 days in prison, while the others were fined and set free.`According to our information, the [country's] police chief gathered theheads of his territorial divisions last night and issued each of themwith an order to arrest between 15 and 20 people in their respectiveareas,' Khudabashian claimed. The Armenian Police again refused to comment on the allegations andother arrest reports. But the spokesman for the Justice Ministry, AraSaghatelian, confirmed the fact of the arrests. `Over the past week 40citizens have been subjected to administrative punishment,' he toldRFE/RL. However, Saghatelian declined to specify how many of them were held overthe past 24 hours and to detail charges leveled against thoseindividuals. There was clear evidence of the arrests in the court of first instanceof Yerevan's central Kentron district where at least five persons weretried Saturday for attending the unsanctioned gatherings, `insulting'law-enforcement officers, `disrupting public order' and other allegedoffences. The brief trials were taking place in closed sessions. Evenlawmaker Khudabashian was not allowed to attend them. `The judge asked whether I participated in the rallies,' Artush, amiddle-aged man, said as he awaited a verdict outside the courtroom. `Isaid I was at the rally by chance. I just watched it for 30 minutes andleft.' He was sentenced to 7 days' imprisonment shortly afterwards. Another defendant awaiting punishment, Garnik Khanzadian, also deniedtaking part in the opposition protest. The 73-year-old man said he justwalked through the crowd on his way to a nearby café where he boughtpastry for his wife. `Am I a criminal?' he asked in disbelief. Shushan Arakelian, who admitted supporting the opposition, said she wascaught by the police and fined 1,500 drams ($2.5) after being forced tosign a false confession. `They dictated me a testimony alleging that Iimpeded traffic on Abovian street [in the city center],' she said. There were similar reports from other parts of the country. KamoAvetisian, a resident of Aragats village in central Armenia and a memberof the pro-Demirchian Hanrapetutyun party, said he fled his home toavoid arrest. He claimed that police burst into his house and searchedit late Friday. `I had already been twice arrested,' he said. `It's been three dayssince I left my home.' The latest crackdown on the opposition reflects lingering politicaltensions in Armenia that result from the two-round presidential electionrejected as fraudulent by the Demirchian campaign and criticized asundemocratic by Western observers. About 200 Demirchian supporters hadalready been rounded up shortly before the March 5 second round ofvoting. At least 80 of them were given short jail sentences in similarlyclosed trials condemned by local and international human rights groups. The arrests resumed on Monday, and there were reportedly more than 30individuals subjected to the punishment by Friday's opposition rally.Thousands of Demirchian supporters marched past the main police buildingin Yerevan to demand the release of all detainees. Ironically, some ofthem were to find themselves in jail a few hours later. Demirchian and other opposition leaders claim that the crackdown is partof Kocharian's efforts to bully his political opponents and quell theongoing campaign of street protests. Kocharian and his top associateshave not yet responded to the charges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 alpha, I would like to see articles about how much money many of those making demostrations got ? How much they have been paid by the opposition to do so? I don't want to comment this article posted by you since I cannot check the reality of what was written there. Second, in any country that kind of demonstration would be punished by the police I think - they are all illegal. Third, as far as the criminal present regime is concerned, as a citizen I would not like to change one criminal regime by another, what's the point. Who is Demirchyan? In real time people go and vote and having these two candidates there's not all that much you can do. Should one vote for Demirchyan because he is the son of his famous father? Is there anything else about him? Any economic strategy and plan for the country? How about the Artsax issue and military issue in general? If just being the son of the father is the point then I would say that during his fathers' time criminal/mafia got to its maximum blossoming point in republic of armenia. So, is it worth changing one regime by another? I am not a real supporter of the present regime but I don't know about any other choice. And I don't want the country to face another hegashrgum or fast radical changes. Those who are worried about the democracy and citizens' rights in Armenia might create social institutions to protect them. Why do they want a change of the regime if the next one is going to be even worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARR Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Is alpha renamed MJ? Drear Forum members, please pay attention to the langguage and choice of words of MJ and alpha. I am starting to loose interest to this forum because one person could post here under several names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by ARR:Is alpha renamed MJ? Drear Forum members, please pay attention to the langguage and choice of words of MJ and alpha. I am starting to loose interest to this forum because one person could post here under several names.I think what you suggest is highly unlikely (in case of MJ/alpha). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 sen I think not only you but also many Armenians are tired of new changes, they happened many time but nothing has changed. I don’t know much about the young Demerchyan but his father had the stamina, character and was a good businessman not much can be said for the current president the turk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by ARR:Is alpha renamed MJ? Drear Forum members, please pay attention to the langguage and choice of words of MJ and alpha. I am starting to loose interest to this forum because one person could post here under several names.ARR - MJ and alpha are not the same person! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by 564312:sen I think not only you but also many Armenians are tired of new changes, they happened many time but nothing has changed. I don’t know much about the young Demerchyan but his father had the stamina, character and was a good businessman not much can be said for the current president the turk.On several occasions I have heard people calling Kocharian a 'turk'. This is bizzarre to me, because one can call him anything but that. He doesn't like Turks, Turks don't like him, he fought against Turks(Azeris), etc. Demirchian is a better candidate for such a title since he didn't talk about the genocide at all and was planning to please the Turks by abandoning Artsax. Could anyone explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARR Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by 564312:sen I think not only you but also many Armenians are tired of new changes, they happened many time but nothing has changed. I don’t know much about the young Demerchyan but his father had the stamina, character and was a good businessman not much can be said for the current president the turk.In that case Demirchian must be a kurd or a yesdi at best! LOL [ March 24, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: ARR ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 I truly don’t have time to get into name-calling, but if anyone is interested in getting engaged in a debate about democratic processes in Armenia I’d welcome the idea. Otherwise I don’t think neither the readers of the forum, nor the contributors will get anything out of name-calling and belittling the opposition. Each one of us has a view of what kind of Armenia they want to have. Some hallucinating nationalists want “Tsovits Tshov Hayastan”, nostalgic people see Armenia as an oblast of Russia, and more reasonable pragmatists want a democratic Armenia. Having lived in Western society for many years I am inclined to see Armenia as a democratic model for CIS countries. There are some interesting points raised by some people in this forum. Why are you so anxious to change our people? We have wonderful, hardworking people who have excelled in democratic societies. What we currently lack is not a human capital to build a democratic society, but Armenian society lacks direction in which they believe in. The society is simply tired of being deceived. Remember in 1988, when patriotism was running high how peaceful were the marches and demonstrations. How anxious were the people to make donations for a cause. There was a direction at the time and people believed in it. Essential block of building a democratic society is having the rule of law. How can people respect the law, when the authorities in charge of enforcing it are incompetent? A guy was killed in poplovok, Poghos Poghosyan, in front of many people in Yerevan and the killer walked free. Simply appalling!!! It is common for the authorities to demand time. Time for what? To hand over the sovereignty of Armenia to Russia or time to complete plundering the country? (I remember there was a popular joke, Ayspes ho chi mna, mi kich el kvatana u ayspes kmna) I understand that democratic processes require time, but time can be given only when there is a progress in reaching the goal. What’s our goal? I think the natural answer would be to create a democratic society where people’s rights are respected and they have the means and abilities to live a fulfilling life. Do you think that Armenia is on its way to this goal? I certainly don’t. A trivial division of braches of government is non existent in Armenia. Executive branch simply took over other branches. An argument was brought here about opposition taking the streets. However one should take into account the fact that independent television stations, A1+ and Noyan Tapan, were shut down by the authorities in order to take away the more civil medium of communicating with public. This is my view of Armenia. I would be more interested to reading your vision of Armenia and how are we getting there, instead of name-calling and engaging in non-constructive debates. Lastly those of you who are interested to reading impartial news from Armenia check out Radio Free Europe website. http://www.armenialiberty.org YEREVAN DEFIES COUNCIL OF EUROPE BODY OVER 'ADMINISTRATIVE' ARRESTSBy Emil Danielyan and Shakeh Avoyan Defying warnings by a key Council of Europe body, Armenian authorities indicated on Monday that they will not stop enforcing controversial provisions of a Soviet-era legislation which effectively allow them to jail people without producing clear evidence of wrongdoing. The organization’s Parliamentary Assembly (PACE) has urged the authorities to abolish the corresponding articles of Armenia’s Code of Administrative Misdemeanors and to “refrain from applying them in the interim.” The Armenian Justice Ministry rejected those calls, arguing that official Yerevan did not undertake to amend the code when it was admitted into the Council of Europe two years ago. In a written statement made available to RFE/RL, a senior ministry official in charge of drafting proposals for judicial reform argued that the PACE is a largely consultative body whose recommendations are not binding for member states. The official, Nikolay Arustamian, said that only the council’s main decision-making body, the Committee of Ministers, can make such demands to Armenia. “The Armenian authorities have not received such recommendations or proposals from the Committee of Ministers,” he added. This, according to ministry spokesman Ara Saghatelian, means that Armenian police and courts can continue to prosecute anyone suspected of “disrupting public order.” Courts across the country have cited the controversial legal provisions in sentencing more than a hundred people to up to 15 days in prison over the past four weeks as part of an unprecedented government crackdown on the opposition led by Stepan Demirchian, the controversially defeated presidential candidate. The jail sentences, officially known as “administrative arrests,” were handed down after brief closed trials condemned by domestic and international human rights groups. The defendants have routinely been denied access to lawyers. Charges against them stemmed from their participation in a series of unsanctioned opposition protests against alleged widespread electoral fraud. Many were jailed for committing unspecified “hooligan acts” during the demonstrations. However, the rallies held in Yerevan have so far been remarkably peaceful, in sharp contrast to the ongoing protests around the world against the U.S.-led war in Iraq. The first wave of arrests began in the run-up to the March 5 second round of the presidential election. Many of the more than 100 detainees were Demirchian proxies who had reported serious irregularities during the February 19 first round. They were released from custody just before the run-off vote following a strong international uproar. A joint monitoring mission from the PACE and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe denounced the crackdown as running counter to Armenia’s international commitments. “Those court verdicts contravene not only our international commitments but also Armenian laws,” said Avetik Ishkhanian of the Armenian Helsinki Committee, a local human rights group. “What kind of a country are we living in? Are we really a member of the Council of Europe?” The arrests resumed last week, with at least 40 opposition supporters held by the police. According to Saghatelian, 19 of them were given short jail sentences before the most recent opposition rally held on Friday. Opposition leaders say dozens of other sympathizers of Demirchian were detained following the rally. “If they see something illegal going on, they should first punish organizers of the demonstrations, not their participants,” one of them, Shavarsh Kocharian, told RFE/RL. The PACE demanded the changes in the Administrative Code in a special resolution on the fulfillment of Armenia’s Council of Europe obligations adopted last September, long before the start of the presidential race. The resolution warned that the code’s provisions regulating administrative arrest are open to government abuse. Those clauses were criticized by Human Rights Watch in stronger terms a few months later. “The administrative court system appeared to be little more than a ‘pocket court’ for police,” the New York-based watchdog charged in a report on Armenia’s 2002 human rights record. The Justice Ministry’s Arustamian said the authorities are now working on a new administrative code and are “refraining from applying administrative arrests as much as possible.” But as Human Rights Watch campaigner put it earlier this month, the Armenian leadership is continuing the practice “on an industrial scale.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 quote:Why are you so anxious to change our people? We have wonderful, hardworking people who have excelled in democratic societies. I believe this is a myth. We don't have wonderful and hardworking people, some people are, most are not. The government officials are very much representative of the people in Armenia because they emerged from this same people not from somewhere else. Diaspora Armenians have experienced the benefits of democracy, but they themselves have not built it being a minority. They simply have taken it granted. That is not the case with the people in Armenia. Democracy for them is a vague idea, or they don't have any idea. They certainly deserve it as any other people in the world, but they don't want it at this point. How would you explain that a lot of people are willing to sell their votes. To me such people are not wonderful but blind and ignorant. I understand that the reason is poverty, and whatever they do with their vote is only their choice. When Poghos Poghosian was murdered, there were some complaints. But the people were largely indifferent, if not in their thoughts then in their actions. Therefore I believe that we don't have wonderful people. We have indifferent, self-interested people. Did the opposition continually rally and demand the resignation of the government or demand a fair trial for this murder? No. But when it came to power struggle the opposition did rally with thousands of misguided people and didn't stop at anything. I don't believe that this is a democratic process, this is merely a power struggle and I wouldn't like to have illusions or to take any part in it. There are many other examples to show how indifferent we are for the future of our country, and how little we respect the law, and that the rule of a law is not what we try to achieve in our actions. In my opinion, there cannot be democracy in Armenia or any country without certain degree of economic development where the majority of people can afford to think about democracy and really feel that they need it. At that time the people will not be ignorant to be deceived by the politicians (be it government or opposition), and most importantly will have material ground to struggle for their rights. What do you expect from poor people? Of course they don't care about democracy or rule of a law country, because earning the minimal daily living is the highest priority for them. I would very much like to see wonderful people in Armenia, but it is not going to be easy. [ March 25, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Sasun ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARR Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by alpha: Lastly those of you who are interested to reading impartial news from Armenia check out Radio Free Europe website. http://www.armenialiberty.orgRadio Free Europe is a pro western news agency. It tends to put to much attention on opposition for the sake of opposition. For example instead of publishing the arguments that the Armenian procecuters had in arresting Armen Sarkisian in Tigran Naghdalian's case, they publish that Mrs. Gretta said she did not brought up a murderer and demands release. Most of you people, live in the United States, just imagine what would happen if protesters here start insulting policemen or politicians. Just a few days ago police arrested 1300 anti-war protester in San Francisco. Several hundreds of protesters were arrested in NY, Chicago, Washington DC. In Spain police were shooting rubber bullets and using water guns to calm protests. Does Radio Free Europe defend those protesters? [ March 25, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: ARR ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph parikian Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 Sasun this was the most acurate discription of the situation in Armenia i read so far, one more thing it is not easy to erase 75 years of comunist rule , teaching them democracy is going to take some or maybe long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 quote:Originally posted by parik:Sasun this was the most acurate discription of the situation in Armenia i read so far, one more thing it is not easy to erase 75 years of comunist rule , teaching them democracy is going to take some or maybe long time. <img border="0" alt="[thumbup]" title="" src="smilies/thumbup.gif" />Another very good point that many folks don't understand. Actually I think many of the previous few posts have made some good points (even if perhaps/seemingly contadictory)...thanks all for taking the time to enlighten us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 So which came first chicken or egg – democracy or wealth? Without free flow of goods, labor and capital it is impossible to create a wealthy society. Free flow of economic resources is hammered by the authorities who benefit from retaining monopolies in most profitable industries. A country can not be integrated into world structures if it does not respect the laws it signed to (we were admitted to Council of Europe and have to respect the laws of that organization). Free elections are universal and has nothing to do with “Armenian mentality” as Serje Sarkissian wants us to believe. COUNCIL OF EUROPE HEAD WARNS OF ARMENIAN ELECTION ‘DISASTER’By Armen Zakarian in Strasbourg A repeat of serious vote irregularities in next month’s parliamentary elections would spell a political “disaster” for Armenia, the secretary general of the Council of Europe warned on Wednesday. “In my view, it would be a disaster for the country if the parliamentary elections will not take place under very proper circumstances and in accordance with European standards,” Walter Schwimmer, told a news conference in Strasbourg. “These elections must be free, fair and transparent.” Schwimmer’s stark warning came two days after the Council of Europe’s Parliamentary Assembly (PACE) strongly criticized the Armenian authorities’ conduct of the recent presidential election. In a resolution, the PACE stressed that the May 25 legislative elections must mark a serious improvement over the presidential ballot held in two rounds on February 19 and March 5. A joint monitoring mission from the PACE and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has concluded that both rounds of voting fell short of democratic standards because of “widespread irregularities.” Schwimmer said the Armenian government failed to address his grave concerns voiced on the eve of the presidential run-off. He indicated that failure to hold a clean vote on May 25 could destabilize the political situation in Armenia and even prompt punitive action by the Council of Europe. The PACE decided on Monday to send a much larger delegation of observers to Armenia for the forthcoming elections. An advance team of Council of Europe officials will fly to Yerevan as early as this month, officials in Strasbourg said. According to Schwimmer, the council’s main decision-making body, the Committee of Ministers, will discuss the Armenian presidential election soon. He said it will also address the post-election wave of arrests of opposition supporters which have been denounced by local and international human rights groups. A senior PACE lawmaker, Lord Russell-Johnston, has urged the Committee of Ministers to press Yerevan to stop enforcing a Soviet-era administrative code under which many of the detainees have been sentenced to up to 15 days’ imprisonment. http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2003/04/2955EBD7-4 A97-4AB7-ADE2-FE4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP://http://www.armenialiberty.org/armen...E4DB22F8AEE.ASP another interesting link from aravothttp://www.aravot.am/2003/aravot_arm/April/3/u01.htm [ April 03, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: alpha ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 quote:Originally posted by alpha:So which came first chicken or egg – democracy or wealth? You can have a little more democracy and a little more wealth at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.