The Situation In Lebanon

[Sassun]

"radical Islam" ... as if "radical" is supposed to be any sort of excuse for Islam. And yes, yes, yes .. the US and Israel are also responsible for sick puppies and dying new borns everywhere. But as the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

Hi Sip Why don't you reply to an argument with an actual argument ?

[annannimusss]

I will find out his name tonight and tell you.

[Shahan Araradian]

It is absolutely amazing how brainwashed you are.

It is absolutely amazing how you don't address the issues at hand and resort to name-calling.

[Sip]

It is absolutely amazing how you don't address the issues at hand and resort to name-calling.

 

I was asked a direct question by Dave about my solution to the Middle East problem and I answered it. I also have expressed my disagreement with Sassun that the Middle East would have been a peaceful place if it weren't for the US and Israel.

 

The only "name calling" I have done here is to call "radical Islamists" "stupid". And I definitely stick by that. As far as you being brain washed, that is not name calling, that is a fact since you have never said ANYTHING good about the US. If you don't see anything good about the US, then yes, you are a brainwashed moron.

[Shahan Araradian]

I was asked a direct question by Dave about my solution to the Middle East problem and I answered it. I also have expressed my disagreement with Sassun that the Middle East would have been a peaceful place if it weren't for the US and Israel.

 

The only "name calling" I have done here is to call "radical Islamists" "stupid". And I definitely stick by that. As far as you being brain washed, that is not name calling, that is a fact since you have never said ANYTHING good about the US. If you don't see anything good about the US, then yes, you are a brainwashed moron.

So then it appears you think that when people think on their own it means they are "brainwashed". Let me remind you that it takes a second person to brainwash another; and I'm not the one who pays attention to corporate media.

 

Anyway, the "wellness" of the U.S. is a complicated subject, and it's not completely black and white, good or bad.

 

In terms of quality of life for citizens, I argue that a capitalist system as the one in U.S. is only good for the 2% of the population (medium-large business owners); the 98%-95% of the population don't live as well as their counterparts in more socialist countries. So if you're planning on becoming a medium to large sized business owner, the US is your place (that is the GOOD thing about the U.S.); if not, then you're best off in Canada or west Europe.

 

In terms of foreign policy and the best interests of the American people, I don't think it is good that the U.S. has been hijacked by special interest groups -- Zionists and some executives representing large corporate interests. Over the long term, the artificial U.S. support of Israel is detrimental BOTH to the U.S. government and to the American people.

 

All empires fall, and it's a gradual process. We may very well be witnessing the blunders of an empire in the early days before its fall.

Edited June 22, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Dave]

As long as people are stupid enough to believe in God, Allah, and Yahweh, and as long as they are stupid enough to consider geographic places as "holy", there is NO solution. I am just very glad I am far away from that stupidity.

 

You aren't... Armenians consider Ararat as a holy mountain, and that's not only because we're Christians.

 

They need to turn the whole god damned place into a united states of Middle East where everyone is free to come and go as they please, warship whatever made up spaghetti monster in the space they want, and have free markets determine who gets ahead in life and who stays a miserable 13th century cave dweller for the rest of their lives. They need to invest more in educational infrastructures, schools, and colleges instead of mosques and jihad training camps. They all need to wake the fudge up and realize the real American way is THE ONLY way in a global world where race, ethnicity, and religion are as pointless as some rediculous and arbitrary lines people have been drawing for centuries to differentiate each other.

 

But since people will continue to be thick headed morons who think they are better than everyone else (doesn't matter who it is, including myself ), there is no solution in the Middle East.

 

Well, we can't just Americanize the whole Middle-East... It wouldn't work. Perhaps it'd be fine for North America, since it's a relatively new place (inhabited in an organized fashion for 400 years only) as opposed to the Middle-East which has more than 10,000 years of history! Everybody there has an affectional relationship with their little plot of land, their little city or province, while Tennessee doesn't really mean anything to the average American living there; it's all of America that counts.

 

EDIT: Lebanon used to be like that (tolerant and good and wtv) until the Zionists intervened.

 

Ah yes, Sassun, that was what I was talking about. I also saw the same girl on TV, but the TV mostly showed how the girl is scared tucked in her basement, while the people of South Lebanon didn't even have a basement to speak of, anymore...

 

Edited June 22, 2007 by Dave

[annannimusss]

I am a mix of what Sip is saying and what Sassun is saying, Yahoodis are the evil and scum of the Earth, but the U.S. does support them. But I can not hate a place where I have such a good life that my fathers side of the family did not have in Lebanon. I see what you both are saying and I kind of agree with both of you.

[Sassun]

Sako, no one said you should hate USA. There is a difference between hating and criticizing policies. Criticizing your government's policies does not mean you're a traitor or that you are not patriotic. This is a myth perpetuated by those who want to silence all criticism and critical thinking. This is part of the zionazi lobby's myths.

[Sip]

Sako, no one said you should hate USA. There is a difference between hating and criticizing policies.

 

Sassun, this is exactly the reason I enjoy discussing things with you and not some other people whose only goal in life is to bash the US. I definitely agree that there are many problems in the US and its foreign policy, support of Israel, etc. I also can fully appreciate the frustration and anger you guys living in places like Lebanon who are being torn apart between fundamental Islam, Christianity, western ideals, and "zionism" are feeling. I am also not one to defend idiots like Bush and other morons in the US who vote for him just because they may be against "gay marriage" ... who have no grasp of what is really going on in the world and what their actions here in the US mean.

 

So I hope you don't think that based on what I have said that I am somehow blind to the disturbing US-Israel relations and even more disturbing US involvements in the middle east.

 

However, obviously I have very little patience with someone (Shahan for example) who is living in the US but can't stop bitching about how horrible this place is.

Edited June 22, 2007 by Sip

[Anoushik]

In terms of quality of life for citizens, I argue that a capitalist system as the one in U.S. is only good for the 2% of the population (medium-large business owners); the 98%-95% of the population don't live as well as their counterparts in more socialist countries. So if you're planning on becoming a medium to large sized business owner, the US is your place (that is the GOOD thing about the U.S.); if not, then you're best off in Canada or west Europe.

Shahan, the rest of the world is increasingly becoming capitalist, including Armenia. Why is that?

[Sassun]

Sassun, this is exactly the reason I enjoy discussing things with you and not some other people whose only goal in life is to bash the US. I definitely agree that there are many problems in the US and its foreign policy, support of Israel, etc. I also can fully appreciate the frustration and anger you guys living in places like Lebanon who are being torn apart between fundamental Islam, Christianity, western ideals, and "zionism" are feeling. I am also not one to defend idiots like Bush and other morons in the US who vote for him just because they may be against "gay marriage" ... who have no grasp of what is really going on in the world and what their actions here in the US mean.

 

So I hope you don't think that based on what I have said that I am somehow blind to the disturbing US-Israel relations and even more disturbing US involvements in the middle east.

 

However, obviously I have very little patience with someone (Shahan for example) who is living in the US but can't stop bitching about how horrible this place is.

Sip,

I think that criticism of USA should not be restricted to those who do not live there. Living there and criticizing USA does not mean one is ungrateful or unpatriotic. At least that's the way I view things, and I apply the same thing for the criticism of the Lebanese state, Lebanese politicians, Lebanese army (even though I have served and intend to be recruited very soon, if my other plan fails). I have lurked around long enough on all sorts of media and discussion boards to know exactly the mentality of Israelis and certain trends in USA. There are certain elements that adopt the following logic: if they criticize the state it means they do not like it, and if they do not like it, why are they still living here? They should move to some other country. In Israelis' case, they apply it on Palestinian citizens of Israel. In USA's case, they apply it on anyone who might be remotely critical of USA's policies both at home and abroad. So I think while the content of the argument is open to debate (whether or not U.S policies are actually right or wrong or whether USA is harming its interests by doing Israel's bidding, or whether or not USA is actually doing Israel's bidding to begin with), its nature (in other words, whether or not asking those questions by someone who lives in USA, is akin to being ungrateful, or akin to bashing USA) is not really up to debate. And while Shahan may be outspoken, I do not think he hates USA per se. I don't think there are many people who actually hate the U.S, perhaps with the exception of Al Qaida and some few nutcases here and there. And hatred of USA is no more severe than hatred of other peoples/countries/states. The backlash against USA is not quite proportional to the destructive role it has played in our part of the world. I admit, I myself have chanted, wholeheartedly, "death to America", and will continue to do so. You have to realize that while you might afford to take a non-personal view to things, it is not so for most of us who are directly or indirectly impacted by U.S policies. Before the July 2006 war against Lebanon, I had no "special" feelings towards USA, even though I hated what they were doing in Iraq and protested against it. Last summer's war really got to my head, and I don't think I will ever forgive USA for what it did during the war. You will say that the Bush administration is crazy, or whatever, but the Middle East has not seen better days at the hands of Democrats. So for us, it's "more of the same". USA is an empire, whether you like to admit it or not. Therefore, you cannot really evade tackling the issue of foreign policy and just adhere to justifying your choice between Republicans and Democrats as being based on "domestic considerations". The domestic is related to the external, whether you like it or not. USA alone consumes more than 30% of world energy, and almost all of the oil comes from the Middle East. USA will run out of its domestic oil supply in 10 years. The Middle East will continue to supply for at least 60 years (Iran and Iraq for another 100 years or so). So if you want to use your SUVs , you have to secure access to oil. And so far, USA has proven unwilling to acquire the oil by means other than installing puppet regimes and dictators, or invading and occupying entire countries. So, Americans must make the choice: between trying alternatives which might paint a much better picture of them in the minds of future generations, or to wage war after war, in order to continue driving SUVs. Americans must stop evading the real issues. Human rights are not just a slogan you repeat. Either you are for it or against it. Either you stand firmly behind your actions, or you don't. There's no grey area in between. Those who try to dissociate American domestic politics from its foreign policy (this point was made in another thread) are just skirting the real issues, and deliberately so. And I have to say, while I do point the finger at the Israeli lobby, I also hold Americans fully responsible also. Because they have made that decision consciously, and they can change their position if they wish to do so. Isn't USA a democracy? And if the American people are ignorant of what is going on in the Middle East , or do not care either way, then does that mean they should not be held responsible for what their elected government does? No, that won't work on us. We hold the American people fully responsible for the actions of their elected government. You can't have it both ways. If you are a democracy then you have voted for the guy who is running both your domestic politics and your foreign policy. When you re-elect him, you reinstate your trust in him. That is what you guys did. If it is all about people/countries "paying" for their behavior/actions, then USA should be the first to pay for its actions. And pay it will. Unless the American people wake up, which I doubt will happen any time soon. Instead Americans continue to believe that their salvation is in switching to the Democrats. In the end, your democracy is a sham and does not appeal even to those who have grown up in the most undemocratic region. Your "democracy" is a multiple choice questionnaire, and the only two options available are: "the same", and "more of the same".

[annannimusss]

Sassun, The guy I played against today was Vicken Eskedjian. This guy is about an inch taller then me so his about 6'3 and maybe a liittle more, he ripped, and he is 35 and still can jump and dunk like its nothing. He played for Antranik last year and is a free Agent this year, he might or might not play, and he might play for Antranik again, so he is unsure what he will do.

[Sip]

Isn't USA a democracy?

 

Technically, it's a "republic". You are definitely saying a lot of things I agree with. But I hope you wake up and realize that by chanting "Death to America", you are only raping yourself.

[Shahan Araradian]

Shahan, the rest of the world is increasingly becoming capitalist, including Armenia. Why is that?

It's because the capitalists of the world go into these countries in various ways and attempt to somehow enslave them.

 

The best example is the World Bank. Its purpose in life is to enslave developing countries by making large loans out to them, often to corrupt leaders of the third world. The debt is transferred over to the people who have to pay them off in taxes.

 

Once the target country is in debt (in the tens of billions of USD) then the World Bank (really a front for individual capitalists -- and by capitalists I mean people with over $10 million USD in assets) can affect the foreign and internal policy of the target country (such as Armenia) by offering to lower the national debt (or percentage) if they comply with certain "rules" such as adopting policies that would favor the introduction of foreign investment with strings attached -- most of the time detrimental to the people of the host country.

 

So... it is a game. The game is to increase control over markets all over the world by a certain group of capitalists guised as the "World Bank".

 

These developing nations, then, become puppet states -- with puppet leaders and economies controlled by external entities. This isn't the Armenia that I envision. I have more of a socialist bent when it comes to foreign and internal policies; ALL of the people (e.g. Armenian people) should benefit from the fruits of technology and automation (physical and electronic) not only a handful of FOREIGN investors (not even Armenians).

 

By being vigilant and politically and economically active in Armenia, we may ensure that our country remains free.

 

Specifically, it is only by having a POPULAR socialist movement in Armenia that we can ensure that all Armenians in Armenia live the quality of life that they deserve as human beings. But if this popular social movement does not exist, then Armenia will default to becoming a "capitalist" and enslaved state since there is an active current -- headed by the World Bank, among others -- to enslave Armenia and the Armenians living in it. Our goal should be to make Armenia as self-sufficient as possible to ensure government policies are in the best interests of the Armenian people.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

And while Shahan may be outspoken, I do not think he hates USA per se.

Shahan obviously benefits from the U.S. that he is living there. And the U.S. obviously benefits from Shahan's talents (and tax payer money) that it has invited his family to the U.S. And being able to criticize one's own government -- including its foreign policies -- as well as the lifestyles of the average American (in the hopes to make it better) are one of the great things about living in a country advertised as a "democracy".

 

...But something is suspicious when fellow "democratic citizens" would like to silence other citizens who criticize... Looks to me like the effects of a totalitarian system (not state, but SYSTEM) -- the corporate system that's become the dominant institution of American life -- especially the way that corporate media controls the behavior of "consumers" (they -- the media -- don't even call the average American "humans" anymore; simply animals who "consume" -- consumers)

 

In the end, your democracy is a sham and does not appeal even to those who have grown up in the most undemocratic region. Your "democracy" is a multiple choice questionnaire, and the only two options available are: "the same", and "more of the same".

Indeed it is. It is more like a democracy for "special interest" groups: if you lobby -- i.e. bribe -- then your group gets what it wants. What happens when a lobby urges Congress to fight wars on its behalf?

Edited June 23, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[AK-47]

Shahan, the rest of the world is increasingly becoming capitalist, including Armenia. Why is that?

What happened to Latin America? There is a big socialist movement there... a big portion of the countries are going to the Left (or the dark side, to the USA ).

[Shahan Araradian]

What happened to Latin America? There is a big socialist movement there... a big portion of the countries are going to the Left (or the dark side, to the USA ).

Not to mention Lebanon... Hezbollah is also a socialist movement.

 

They also seek the national self-determination of their own people, a requirement to any socialist state:

"To permit all the sons of our people to determine their future and to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire. We call upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government which alone is capable of guaranteeing justice and liberty for all. Only an Islamic regime can stop any future tentative attempts of imperialistic infiltration onto our country."

 

Also, what happened to Quebec, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, and on and on...

Edited June 23, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

Israel has been a liability and not an asset.

This sums up my sentiments very well on this issue.

 

You might wonder why I hold such a strong position against Zionism. It is because it has started to affect my daily life -- both in terms of my family's life in Lebanon as well as my personal safety in the U.S. and while traveling abroad. The entire WORLD is becoming more dangerous PRECISELY because of the Zionist hijacking of the U.S. government (including State Department that sets foreign policy) and American media (that manufactures/creates American public opinion). Control these two entities and you control the U.S.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

Has the average American read the report on the Israeli lobby by Walt & Mearsheimer ? No. Oh wait, they actually tried to censor it, and given the zionazis' tight control over media, it never really got a wide coverage anyway. But the internet is relatively free of the zionazi control, and so please do me a favor and read that report:

 

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...06_011_walt.pdf

Sassun,

 

Thank you for sharing this very powerful document.

 

Quote from page 1:

"This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries is based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperativs. As we show below, however, neither of those explanations can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States povides to Israel.

 

 

"Instead, the overall thrust of U.S. policy in the region is due almost entirely to U.S. domestic politics, and especially to the activities of the “Israel Lobby.” Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

[Shahan Araradian]

Some more quotes...

 

pg. 12 of the same (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpap...6_011_walt.pdf):

 

+ As Ben‐Gurion told Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress, “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. . . . We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti‐Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

 

+ Since then, Israeli leaders have repeatedly sought to deny the Palestinians’ national ambitions. Prime Minister Golda Meir famously remarked that "there was no such thing as a Palestinian." [sounds like a Turk claiming that no Armenians existed in Eastern Turkey...]

 

pg. 17:

 

+ special interest groups enjoy disproportionate power when they are committed to a particular issue and the bulk of the populaton is indifferent. Policymakers will tend to accommodate those who care about the issue in question, even if their numbers are small, confident that the rest of the population will not penalize them.

 

Edited June 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

Enlightening...

 

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

 

on YouTube

 

[Sassun]

UNIFIL was bombed today, and Israel was quick to express its regret at this targeting of the UNIFIL...

[AK-47]

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/...d_to_Israel.htm

 

Here's an old specific breakdown on the American financial aid of Israel.

Edited June 25, 2007 by AK-47

[AK-47]

UNIFIL was bombed today, and Israel was quick to express its regret at this targeting of the UNIFIL...

Թուրք զինուորներուն գլխու «պէլլան» թող ինար, ոչ Սբանացիներուն... anyway let's see where the Zionist media goes with this in a few days, will they blame Iran? Syria? Hamas? so-called "Fatah al-Islam"? Hizb Allah?

[annannimusss]

Sassun so have you heard of Vicken Eskedjian?