Muslim Armenian?

[Sip]

I am converting to Arpaism Am I still Armenian?

[Sip]

By the way, having thought about this a bit more, I have come to the conclusion that forbidding one "Xhozi xorovats" and "oghi" really goes against everything that means to be "Armenian".

[ED]

I am converting to Arpaism Am I still Armenian?

 

 

I'm converting to shabanism and I consider me as Armenian, who dosent aprove can go to hell

[Boghos]

Come on guys, Sassun just wants to know if it´s OK for him to be Armenian and Muslim.Yes, it is OK. Now you may go and build mosques in Armenia.But finish your lollypop first.

[Sassun]

Boghos and others,

I want to know why you guys are not taking my question seriously and are making fun of it.

 

It really is an honest question, but I am saddened that you do not take it seriously and are saying offensive things.

 

Did I disrespect anyone?

 

I apologize if I did.

 

It was not my intention to be provocative or offend anyone.

 

I wish you would not make fun of me the way you are doing now.

 

I know this is or might be a sensitive topic for many, but I thought we could discuss. I have suggested some issues that we can talk about , but I guess you are not interested in such a discussion.

 

Anyway, I still welcome any constructive responses and criticisms even. I wish you would see that you are alienating people and not contributing to understanding each other.

[AK-47]

AK-47

You raise an interesting point re: seeing Hijab-wearing women in the first state to accept Christianity.

Are you saying that Christian identity is inseparable from Armenian identity?

I know that historically Christianity has always been a strong (if not the strongest) element in holding the nation together, but do you think it is still as valid today, after we have a very solid national identity that is not related to practicing Christianity on a daily (or even monthly) basis anymore (mostly Christian in name)? I think here the issue of lifestyle is also important, and one of the main reasons why Armenians would not accept a "Muslim Armenian". But think about it. If a Muslim Armenian (someone who has converted to Islam willingly) identifies strongly as Armenian, speaks Armenian, thinks in Armenian, and eats the best food ever-- Armenian food of course, dolma sarma manti yevaylen , do you think that this person would really not be Armenian just because he is Muslim and prays 5 times a day, observes Muslim holidays, and so on? Regardless of whether or not you might think it's stupid for someone to go after organized religion or to convert to Islam.

A devout Christian Armenian would still be considered Armenian.

Thus, religiosity is not the issue here.

The issue is about different religion and also about lifestyle.

And then again, converting to Islam does not mean one abandons one's lifestyle or culture completely. Only some aspects that might be contradictory.

I find that for alot of Armenians (especially the old seroont), Christianity is inseparable from the Armenian identity. Alot of people, (including me sometimes, I must admit ) go around boasting to everyone about how we were the first nation to adopt Christianity. And most Armenians I know would go ballistic to find out an Armenian is marrying a Muslim (speaking with a recent experience). In Armenia, i've heard it is like this as well. My friend who visited Armenia was at a bar and was heard using the word "yalla" to which a native Armenian approached him and cursed him for using the "dadjik" word in Armenia, even though it was not Turkic but Arabic.

 

Anyway imo, a Muslim Armenian would be too much of a cultural shock to Armenians and would take time to "adapt" to. I guess it all depends on the person who meets the Muslim Armenian. Personally, being Armenian comes before anything else but I must admit that I would be "more comfortable" at first w/ Christian Armenians (as historical tradition) than a Muslim (the religion under which we have suffered the most) Armenian. Then, the entire concept of "Jihad" comes to my mind. Who will these Muslim Armenians be loyal to when the Azeri *Muslim* clerics call for a Jihad against the "infidel Christians". Will they be loyal to Allah or the state of Armenia?

 

And I kind of agree about the affect of the church these days on Armenians. In today's diaspora, I find that the church is losing much of its "glue" power and we need to turn to nationalism to unify people. I can't comment about Armenia as I do not have experience.

[Էլիա]

Boghos and others,

I want to know why you guys are not taking my question seriously and are making fun of it.

 

It really is an honest question, but I am saddened that you do not take it seriously and are saying offensive things.

 

Did I disrespect anyone?

 

I apologize if I did.

 

It was not my intention to be provocative or offend anyone.

 

I wish you would not make fun of me the way you are doing now.

 

I know this is or might be a sensitive topic for many, but I thought we could discuss. I have suggested some issues that we can talk about , but I guess you are not interested in such a discussion.

 

Anyway, I still welcome any constructive responses and criticisms even. I wish you would see that you are alienating people and not contributing to understanding each other.

Why do you want to conver to Islam anyway? Do you really think that you can have Armenian culture without having Armenian religion? You can't have one or the other; you must have both! So, if you get rid of you Armenian religion, I'm sorry, but you simultaneously destroy your Armenian culture.

 

[Sassun]

I find that for alot of Armenians (especially the old seroont), Christianity is inseparable from the Armenian identity.

I know. This is why I wanted to know what the younger seroont especially living in the west (which usually is understood to be more 'open-minded' to such things as mixed marriage, etc.) thinks of this.

 

I think that the problem is that the traumatic experiences of Armenians have been under "Muslim" rule, although I maintain that it is not much, if at all, is about Islam, but more about pan-Turkism and Turkish nationalism/chauvinism. Islam might have been a rallying call, but that is nothing other than identity politics, and has nothing to do with the nature of true Islam. You will find that rulers have often manipulated Islam to maintain their position and strengthen it. It is the case today in much of the Muslim world where dictatorial regimes continue to use Islam to legitimize their rule. So for example, rebels against the regime want to sow "fitna" (this is not easy to translate to English, so let us say it means "schism"). In fact, much of this manipulation goes not so much through clerics but through education in schools.

 

And as for clerics, in Shi'i Islam, there is something called "marja'a taqlid" (source of emulation), and each person has to choose a marja'a taqlid, who would be a high cleric, known as Ayatollah. People are free to choose whichever cleric's rulings they want to follow, even across borders. But rarely does the issue of loyalty pose a problem. Why? Because, for example, in the case of Iran's Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei, his fatawa (fatwa = edict) are 99.99% related to religion and not politics at all. So his emulators in Lebanon would not have to follow their political line. In fact, this is exactly what people are not aware of, or want to use to badmouth for example Hezb Allah, by saying that Hezb Allah takes orders from the "wali al faqih" of Iran... which is not true.

 

Also the idea of Jihad is way too overrated and overused in Western lexicon.

First, not everyone can issue fatawa. Especially not so in Shi'i Islam. In Sunni Islam there are some offshoots like the Salafis who believe in direct interpretation and believe that the door to "Ijtihad" is closed, so basically anyone (someone with no religious credentials as Ossama Bin Laden) can issue fatawa. Now of course, Bin Laden is NOT, I repeat, NOT a cleric. He just issues fatawa because he believes issuing a fatwa is not the monopoly of the Ayatollah...

 

Anyway , I have not seen a Muslim in Lebanon or Iran for that matter, emulating an Azeri cleric. Nor have I seen any cleric in Iran or Iraq issue a fatwa on Azerbaijan or any other related issue. In that respect , it's a safe bet. Plus, Jihad merely means "struggle", and it is used in many contexts (just saying this so people will shake off their fears of this word based on the actions of some nutcases like Bin Laden). Like, internal Jihad means struggling internally, as an individual, to do good and avoid evil, etc. Not only that, but the struggle between Armenia and the Turks and Azeris is not religious in nature... although Armenians want to portray it as (and also many Turks and Azeris want to portray it as that, too). It is between Armenian nationalism (which has become associated with Christianity) and Turkic nationalism (which has become associated with Islam). I think that by accepting a Muslim Armenian (who is already a Muslim de facto and you cannot change that), you would be strengthening the Armenian cause and not the opposite. I have heard many Turks who use the anti-Muslim card to "show" that Armenians are the ones who are intolerant, etc., and I think this is something that must be truly paid attention to. Although , as my mother says, «թուրքերը աւելի լաւ պտուղ մը չեն: Անանկ մը կը խօսին որ կը կարծես թէ սուրբ են»:

 

I have grown up in a secular family, though I have attended an Evangelical Armenian school and had to go to church, etc. My knowledge of the Armenian Orthodox church is rather limited (though I was Orthodox on paper). In Lebanon there are very few Armenian converts to Islam and they have been virtually completely excommunicated.

 

I think that when people talk about Islam in the context of Christian-Muslim relations, they heap classical sentence upon sentence about "clash of civilizations". But they ignore that Muslims and Christians have lived side by side for centuries, and also, in today's age and time, nationalism is still (despite some transnational Salafi movements which I do not want to have anything to do with and in fact call them IDIOTS and CRIMINALS) defined in terms of the nation-state and loyalty to one's people. A Muslim Lebanese is no less loyal to Lebanon than a Christian Lebanese (though in Lebanon there used to be a similar debate, and to this day many extremist Christian elements, though marginalized, continue to argue this point).

 

I think that some might also be afraid of the danger of opening the way to Turkification of Armenian. In other words, Muslim Turks claiming to be Armenians would somehow make their way and settle in Armenia and "take over the country from within". It's quite an imaginative and paranoid argument, and I am not sure how Armenia determines Armenianness. Is it done based on religion? I mean, at the end of the day a non-Armenian American is also Christian so what is the "right of return" based on? I mean, how does one determine Armenianness, especially when over generations there are mixed marriages, and the new generation (for example in USA) might not even know how to speak Armenian? If it is based on having Armenian ancestors, then I have Armenian ancestors too (from the birthplace of Armenian heroes -- you can guess from my username where that is ), would that make me eligible to go and live there as an equal, and not be considered an enemy within?

[Sassun]

Why do you want to conver to Islam anyway? Do you really think that you can have Armenian culture without having Armenian religion? You can't have one or the other; you must have both! So, if you get rid of you Armenian religion, I'm sorry, but you simultaneously destroy your Armenian culture.

What is "Armenian religion"???

I did not know there was an Armenian religion.

Isn't Christianity supposed to be universal?

You are talking about the church. That's different from Christianity.

The Church organizes Christian life, but it is not "religion" per se.

Plus, is an evangelical or Catholic Armenian not an Armenian, because "Armenian religion" for you seems to be associated with the Armenian Orthodox Church?

If so, then congrats, you just eliminated quite big portions of Armenians, and at the end of the day while they do identify as Armenians, you are the one who is doing harm to Armenia and Armenianness by pushing Armenians away from identifying with it.

 

The same with Muslims. What is the difference?

Do I all of a sudden become a different person when I become a Muslim?

Do I cease to have any ties to my great-grandparents?

Do I cease to feel a connection to my homeland?

Do I destroy the ancient Armenian manuscripts that my family managed to smuggle out during the genocide????

They are , by the way, Christian manuscripts.

And sure, Christianity is part of my national heritage, but what if I am a Muslim, does that mean I have to denounce all that?

Aren't you saying that I should ???

 

In the end it seems that you want a Muslim Armenian to distance himself from his people, because it seems you cannot break free from your preconceived notions of what an Armenian must be. So instead of accepting to embrace someone who is Armenian and who is proud of it, despite being Muslim, you want to feel like you belong to an elite club where admission is restricted to those who belong to "Armenian religion".

It's a pity that you cannot wrap your head around the idea of a Muslim Armenian being attached to his homeland and willing to fight for it even.

[Sassun]

 

This is one of the ancient manuscripts / books that my family has. The reason the text has faded is because it was smuggled out during the genocide by my great-grandfather in very dire circumstances, it was at first put in a honey jar because the Turks were burning and tearing away anything in their sight. The other one I have, is less ancient (it's not handwritten, it's printed probably dating to the 17th century or so), it's a book by Krikor Naregatsi, and used to have gold on the cover, but the Turks removed the gold and threw the book away.

 

So tell me Էլիա

Since I am not an Armenian, should I be destroying this?

[Johannes]

So don't you think that you are doing the same now in this thread as those people have done with regards to the Hamshentsis? Although there is no en-masse conversion of Armenians into Islam now, but still, don't you think it's important to encourage people to keep their ties to their roots and culture and ethnicity no matter what, instead of alienating them and pushing them away?

 

Ահագին տարբերութիւն կայ.

 

1-Չմորթուելու համար իսլամացող իսկակամ հայեր

 

2-Իսլամ կրօնէն անտեղեակ աղջիկ մը որ սիրահարած է իսլամ տղայի մը, կամ քեզի պէս անձ մը, որ Լիբանանի նման զբօսաշրջային (touristic) երկրի իսլամներուն մէջ կ'ապրի: Դուն գնայ ծովէն հեռու վայրեր. ըսենք սաուդիա կամ միջագէտք կը տեսնես թէ ինչ է իսլամութիւնը:

 

But why does the community one lives in need to be coupled with a religious adjective? An Armenian is an Armenian, and if I live somewhere where there is an Armenian community, even if they are not Muslim, don't you think I would want to associate myself with them and be viewed as an Armenian rather than as an outcast? Isn't it the community that alienates Muslim Armenians , and not Muslim Armenians who leave and melt away into another nation

 

أنا أيضاً أرفض إرتباط القومية بالدين, لكن هذه هي حالة أمتنا. أنت تقول أشياء إفتراضية, حيث لا تنفع, أو أنك تجهز دراسة جامعة بخصوص ألأرمن و الديانة الإسلامية و تريد معرفة آراء أرمن الشتات.

 

أنت لا تفهم و لا تريد أن تفهم أن المسألة ليست متعلقة بدين محمد أو دين عيسى و لا بالله تعالى , إنما متعلقة بإحساس الأرمن المتبقون على وجه الأرض بضرورة الحفاظ على هويتنا القومية و الثقافية و الكنيسة الأرمنية الرسولية هي إحدى دعائم الهوية أو الثقافة الأرمنية (و ليست كلها).

 

نحن كشعب تعرض لأبشع الجرائم التاريخ خلال القرون العشرة الماضية , نرى الهوية القومية أهم من الهوية الدينية ( على الأقل هذا رايي ).

 

Քեզի այդ կրօնը բացատրողը, սիրելի Սասուն, այդ կրօնի գեղեցիկ պայծառ երեսը ներկայացուցած է, յանձինս մեծ փիլիսոփայ, ռազմիկ, բանաստեղծ եւ կնասէր Ալիի: Գիտցածդ չգիտցածիդ չի բաւեր:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2007 by Johannes

[aSoldier]

I consider Muslim Armenians just as Armenian as Christian Armenians or Jewish Armenians.

 

I truly wouldn't. Christianity is a part of the Armenian identity.

[Johannes]

Խելացի պատասխաններ չտուիր, այդ պատճառով կը դադրիմ զրուցելէ:

But why does the community one lives in need to be coupled with a religious adjective? An Armenian is an Armenian, and if I live somewhere where there is an Armenian community, even if they are not Muslim, don't you think I would want to associate myself with them and be viewed as an Armenian rather than as an outcast? Isn't it the community that alienates Muslim Armenians , and not Muslim Armenians who leave and melt away into another nation?

 

 

[Sassun]

من قال لكَ انني لم ارَ "ماهية" الإسلام في مختلف البلدان الإسلامية؟ الإسلام هو واحد ولكن للأسف الشديد فإنّ وجوهها عديدة والبعض منها تشوّه الوجه الحقيقي للدين الإسلامي العظيم. أمّا السعودية ، فلا علاقة لها بالإسلام لا من قريب ولا من بعيد. فالحكام في السعودية ليسوا مسلمين أبداً ونهائياً، واعتقد انكَ لو كنتَ تعرف ما يفعلونه في لبنان من اشياء لاأخلاقية لما قلتَ ما قلتَه. وهل تأخذ الطالبان في افغانستان مثالاً لتبرهن انّ الإسلام دين متخلف؟

 

لا، انا لا اعدّ دراسة بخصوص الأرمن وما شابه. فقط اردتُ معرفة آراء الأرمن على المنتدى كونهم يعيشون في مختلف انحاء العالم وبالتالي قد تكون آرائهم مختلفة عن الكره الشديد الذي اسمعه كل يوم، لكل ما له علاقة بالإسلام (حتى الأرمن المسلمين). انا لا احب التحدث عن حالي هنا واذا لاحظت احاول تجنّب ذلك.

 

قلتَ انّ الأمر متعلّق بإحساس الأرمن المتبقين على وجه الأرض. اتفهم هذا واوافقكَ بالرأي، لكنني أيضاً أرمني، واريد ان ينظر الناس اليّ كأرمني دون اية شروط. الا تعتقد انّ هذا طلب مُنصف؟

انا لا اريد القضاء على الكنيسة الأرمنية، وكل انسان حر في ايمانه واعتقاداته. وسبق وقلت انني كأرمني اعتبر انّ الدين المسيحي والكنيسة الأرمنية هما جزء من تراثنا الوطني العظيم. ولكن هل هذا يعني انني ابطل ان اكون ارمنياً اذا أسلمتُ؟ او انني اذا اسلمتُ، سأنكر اهمية الكنيسة كإحدى الدعائم الأساسية لثقافتنا؟

 

انا لا امارس التكفير بحق احد، وخصوصاً الأرمن، لكن في الحقيقة ، الأكثرية الساحقة من الردود على سؤالى هي مستوحِشة بإمتياز. للأسف. كنتُ مليئاً بالأمل بأنّ الجيل الجديد وخصوصاً في اميركا واوروبا، قد يكون اكثر انفتاحاً وتقبّلاً للأرمن المسلمين. ولكن هذا النقاش احبط آمالي.

 

والسلام

[Arpa]

how is washing of hands related to what you said earlier on about private parts??

Maybe you can enlighten us. Why is it haram to use the left hand when eating?

It is beyond me how any one would want in this day and age, when many of us want to rid ourselves from some of the primitive practices of even Christianity, to regress and go back to a primitive culture, and regress back 2000 years of civilization.

Islam is not even a religion, it is a compilation of laws, some human and humane but more savage and inhumane.

As to the left hand etc. search and find the thread about it and see why the left is called sinister in latin, and why in Armenian success is known as

(Յ)ԱՋՈՂ as and why failure is known as ՁԱԽՈՂ. You can find the thread using "sinister" as your keyword.

Primitive, cruel and inhumane.

Among many, here is one thread about "left=sinister"

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7465&hl=sinister

Edited May 26, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Խելօք ազգերը գիտեն երբ պիտի օգտուին տուեալներէն: Այժմ ուշ է: Այս զրուցարանի մէջ ուրիշ տեղ մը գրած եմ, թէ մենք հայերս, եթէ՝ հաւաքաբար ընդունէինք այդ կրօնը 7րդ դարուն, ապա միջին արեւելքի կերպարանքը այլ Կըլլար: Ինձ որպէս հայի մշակոյթս, առաջին հերթին հայերէնը կը հետաքրքրէ, առանց լեզուի ինչ ազգութիւն:

 

Ըսեմ. Եթէ այդ ժամանակ տաճկանային, ապա քուրդեր ընդհանրապէս չէին ըլլար, իսկ եկւոր թուրքերը տարածք չգտնելով կամ կը հեռանային, կամ կը հայանային:

 

Իրանը մնաց իրան, թէեւ շատ բան կորուսեց իր արիական իրանեան մշակոյթէն, այդուհանդերձ մնաց ամբողջական: Թերեւս մենք ալ պահպանուէինք, մնայինք աճէինք զարգանայինք եւ հայ-իսլամական կայսրութիւն մը ստեղծէինք:

 

Վերի տողերը կարդալու ընթացքին լաւ նշմարել եթէները:

 

Հիմա տաճկացող հայը մանաւանդ սփիւռքի տարածքին ապրող հայը, առյաւէտ պիտի կորսուի, որպէս հայ:

 

Յովան դու շատ լաւ գիտես սրա պատասխանը

Եթէ մեբք 7րդ դարուն իսլամացած ըլլայինք կը խորհիս որ այսօր մենք Հայերէն պիտի խօսէինք?

Look around you. Do the Syrians speak Syriac or Aramaic? Do the Lebanese speak Phoenician? Do the Iraqis speak Assyrian or Chaldean? Do the Palestinians speak Aramaic?Do the Egyptians speak Coptic? Do the Libyan and Tunisians speak Berber? Do the Algerians speak their native language? Do the Moroccans? The Spanish were a hair away from losing their native language. Turks and Persians were only a millimeter away from being totally arabicized. What saved them, just like the Spanish was their distance from Mecca and the geography and topography of their lands, beside their sheer numbers and distribution. Lately, both the Turks and the Persians are slowly but surely trying to rid their languages of the Arabic.

Why all this? Simply because Islam is not a religion it is a disguised instrument of conquest. Their plan was almost a total success when they enacted laws that prohibited the practice of Islam in any other language but Arabic. Translation of the Quran was tantamount to a death sentence. Only recently the Quran has been translated to other languages, and get this, even Armenian, which I am sure, is a total abomination to those anvarti Arabs of Mecca. The SOBs, when Sip talks about passing gas, look at what that “gas” turned into, who, until a few decades ago did not even have civilized facilities for defecation.

Other religions have similar laws as well. Until recently it was a sin to conduct Catholic mass in other language then Latin. The Armenian Church is still struggling with Grabar or not Grabar. The Syrian Orthodox church is trying their darndest to maintain Syriac as the official church language.

Coming back to the main question.

Do you think, had we been Islamized during the 7th c. we would still be speaking Armenian today?

And as to Sassun’s argument. Where would a Muslim Armenian practice his religion(in the Armenian language)? Armenia Catholics and Armenian Evangelicals conduct their services in Armenian. In what language would Muslim Armenians conduct their services? Is “la ilaha ill allah” in the Armenian language, or is “wa mohammed rasul ullah” ?

Even a Muslim Eskimo must recites those words in that primitive desert language that does not even have symbols for vowels.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Arpa

 

Why so much contempt and racism against Arabs?

 

What is it to you if a Muslim Armenian practices Islam in Arabic?

The Qur'an is in Arabic, and therefore if an Armenian is going to convert into Islam, he would naturally learn Arabic, unless he already knows it of course.

If he has contempt for Arabic, he does not need to learn it, nor to convert. That's his choice, after all.

However, how does this mean that someone will cease being Armenian? What does this have to do with what language I speak or think in ?

 

Ես ընտանիքիս հետ հայերէն կը խօսիմ: Բայց հայ բարեկամներ չունիմ եւ այդ պատճառաւ օրուայ մէջ հայերէն շատ քիչ կը խօսիմ: Եւ ապաքային երբ ամուսնանամ եւ զաւակի տէր ըլլամ՝ իմ զաւակներս ալ հայերէն պիտի գիտնան:

Արդեօ՞ք Ամերիկահայ նոր սերունդը որ քրիստոնեայ է, հայերէն գիտէ խօսիլ:

Եւ այն Քրիստոնեայ հայերը որոնք հայերէն չեն գիտեր եւ այլ լեզուով կ'աղօթեն արդեօ՞ք կը դադրին հայ ըլլալէ:

Իսկ ըստ Էլիայի պատասխանին, եթէ մէկու մը հայութիւնը կախեալ է «հայկական կրօնք»էն այդ կը նշանակէ թէ միլիոններով հայեր կը դադրին հայ ըլլալէ, որովհետեւ կրօնքի կարեւորութիւն չեն տար եւ կամ ալ շատ քիչ բան գիտեն «հայկական կրօնք»ին մասին:

 

կը ներէս եթէ ուղղագրական սխալներ ունիմ:

 

[Sassun]

Do you think, had we been Islamized during the 7th c. we would still be speaking Armenian today?

Persians speak what??? Farsi.

Turks speak what?? Turkish.

Berbers speak what??? Tamazight.

 

What does language in day to day use have to do with religion?

[Arpa]

Arpa

 

Why so much contempt and racism against Arabs?

 

What is it to you if a Muslim Armenian practices Islam in Arabic?

The Qur'an is in Arabic, and therefore if an Armenian is going to convert into Islam, he would naturally learn Arabic, unless he already knows it of course.

If he has contempt for Arabic, he does not need to learn it, nor to convert. That's his choice, after all.

However, how does this mean that someone will cease being Armenian? What does this have to do with what language I speak or think in ?

Ոչ, շատ լաւ Հայերէն ես գրել:

Do you know what կովու քաքա means?

T"he Quran is in Arabic therefore must be rad in Arabic"

The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, so must we conduct our services in thsoe languages, or shall we do it in Latin?

Do you know what կովու քաքա means?

[Sassun]

Այո գիտեմ ինչ ըսել է:

Ես ուրիշ կրօնքի եւ եկեղեցիներու գործին չեմ խառնուիր: Ինչ լեզուով որ կ'ուզէք այդ լեզուով աղօթեցէք. ոչ մէկ արգելք չի կայ: Եթէ մէկը ուրիշ լեզուով աղօթէ այդ չի նշանակէր որ հայ չէ: Շատ մը հայեր անգլերէնով կ'աղօթեն: Ինչո՞ւ անոնց հայ կը նկատես իսկ ինծի՝ ոչ:

Edited May 26, 2007 by Sassun

[Johannes]

Սիրելի Արփա,

 

Հարցիդ պատասխանելով ասեմ.-

 

Պարբերութիւնս համեմած էի «թերեւս»ներով: Գուցէ պահպանուէինք, եթէ մեզի յատուկ իսլամական աղանդ մը ստեղծէինք (պարսիկները ստեղծեցին շիիզմը, արաբ մարգարէի ընտանիքի հանդէպ գործուած սպանդը շահագործելով), կամ եթէ խալիֆայի պաշտօնը. Հայաստանի մէջ հայ ընտանիք մը ստանձներ (այնպէս որ ըրին թուրքերը):

 

Այնումենայնիւ, այս նիւթի շուրջ ես ու դուն երկար զրուցած ենք ե-նամակի միջոցով:

 

Վերոյիշեալ թէական միտքս արծարծած եմ մտածելով թէ՝ թերեւս հայ ժողովուրդը գոնէ ֆիզիկապէս (որպէս մարմին կամ շնչող դիակ) կը գոյատեւեր պատմական Հայաստանի հողին վրայ հաւաքաբար, եւ այս կերպով զերծ կը մնայինք Ցեղասպանութիւն կոչուած «ջեհեննեմ»էն:

 

Ինչ կը վերաբերի Սասնոյ գրածին. ականջ մի տար, որովհետեւ չի գիտեր ինչ կը խօսի:

 

Մենք կը զրուցենք սերունդները հայ պահելու մասին, իսկ ինք կը խօսի իր մասին սխալ օրինակներ տալով ամերիկայէն, որտեղ հայերը բոլորովին այլ պատճառներով կը ձուլուին:

 

Միջին արեւելքի հայապահպանման գլխաւոր ազդակներէն մին մեր հայ, հայացած կրօնն է:

 

ԽԱՂԱՂՈՒԹԻՒՆ ԱՄԷՆԵՑՈՒՆ

 

Յետ գրութիւն. Առանց մեր հայարիւն, հայասիրտ, հայաշունչ շարականներուն ինչպէս պիտի աղօթել:

 

 

[Sassun]

Ինչ կը վերաբերի Սասնոյ գրածին. ականջ մի տար, որովհետեւ չի գիտեր ինչ կը խօսի:

 

Մենք կը զրուցենք սերունդները հայ պահելու մասին, իսկ ինք կը խօսի իր մասին սխալ օրինակներ տալով ամերիկայէն, որտեղ հայերը բոլորովին այլ պատճառներով կը ձուլուին:

Դուք սերունդներու մասին կը զրուցէք բայց իմ հարցումս անձերու մասին էր:

Եթէ խնդիրը սերունդները հայ պահելն է, ի՞նչ ձեւով կ'օգտուիս ինծի հայ չի նկատելով: Պարզապէս որպէսզի ուրիշներ իմ օրինակիս չի հետեւին: Եթէ այդ է պատճառը այս ցոյց կու տայ թէ դուք պարզապէս ժամանակի դէմ կը պայքարիք:

Ամերիկայի օրինակը բերի պարզապէս ցոյց տալու համար որ դուք անոնց հայ կը նկատէք նոյնիսկ եթէ հայերէն չեն գիտեր խօսիլ եւ միեւնոյն ժամանակ ինծի եւ ինծի պէս ուրիշներու հայ չէք նկատեր որովհետեւ հայերէնով չենք կրնար աղօթել: Եթէ իրապէս մտահոգ էք հայութեան մասին պէտք է ջանք թափէք որ հայութէնէ չի հերացնէք բոլոր այն հայերը որոնք կամայ կամ ակամայ կրօնափոխ եղած են եւ տակաւին հայ «կը զգան»: Բայց ինչ որ կը տեսնեմ հոս, ձեր միտքը զբաղած է սերունդներու ազատագրութեան ծրագրով: Շատ լաւ. Յաջողութիւն կը մաղթեմ ձեզ:

Edited May 26, 2007 by Sassun

[Arpa]

Այո գիտեմ ինչ ըսել է:

Ես ուրիշ կրօնքի եւ եկեղեցիներու գործին չեմ խառնուիր: Ինչ լեզուով որ կ'ուզէք այդ լեզուով աղօթեցէք. ոչ մէկ արգելք չի կայ: Եթէ մէկը ուրիշ լեզուով աղօթէ այդ չի նշանակէր որ հայ չէ: Շատ մը հայեր անգլերէնով կ'աղօթեն: Ինչո՞ւ անոնց հայ կը նկատես իսկ ինծի՝ ոչ:

Այո շատ մը Հայեր Անգլիէրենով կաղոթեն Նմանապէս շատ մը Ամերիգացի Մուսուլմաններ Անգլիէրէնով կաղոթեն

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Do we, in the Armenian Church sing Ter Voghormia as Kyrie Eleison?

Muslims, no matter where they are must recite “Bismillah” in Arabic.

Must we, Armenians recite the Lord’s Prayer in Arabo-Aramaic like “Abana elladhi bi samawat…”?

No matter wher, in which corner, Apostlic, Catholic or Protestant. Do we recite the homily “յԱնուն Հոր եւ Որդվոյ եւ Հոգվոյն Սրբո as Bismil ab wa Waleed wa Ruh al Muqaddas“? Yes, at times we do recite it in the prevailing language. But sre we ever obligted torecite it in the original language of the Bible whatever the hell it may have been?

Once again; Do you know what “կովու քաքա / khara ul bagarat “ means?

Edited May 26, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Արփա

Իսլամական կրօնքին մէջ աղօթքը միայն "bismillah al rahman al rahim" եւայլն ըսելով չի վերջանար: Ուրբաթ օրուայ աղօթքը մզկիթին մէջ նաեւ կը պարունակէ ճառ եւ պայման չէ որ արաբերէնով ըլլայ այս ճառախօսութիւնը:

 

By the way it's "bismil ab wal ibn wal ruh al qudus"

Edited May 26, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

Arpa

Yes, at times we do recite it in the prevailing language. But do we ever recite it in the original language of the Bible whatever the hell it may have been

Well, I do not know, and it is none of my business what language you recite it in. If you do recite it in some other language, does that make you any less Armenian than someone who recites it in Armenian?

I don't think so. But I guess you disagree.