Marriage And Family

[dianjan]

Decided to bring this to the forum. Considering that we're living in 21st century and Armenian, do you think that kids should live with parents after they're married?

I'll give you some background.. My friend (Who's Armenian)just got married and moved out with her husband from her mom's house. The issue she's having is that she's feeling really guilty that she moved out and her mom's living alone now. And obviously her Armenian relatives aren't helping, by making her feel guilty that she left her mom alone.

I tried to explain to her that it's OK, and even though it's hard, she has to start her life on her own. Her mom is healthy and young and is able to take care of her self.

My opinion is that every couple should live alone for sometime at least to get to know each other and adjust to each other.

What do you guys think??

Edited March 7, 2007 by dianjan

[Yervant1]

Your friend did the right thing by moving out, she should make her own nest and be in charge of her destiny.

In the long run the mother will be happy as well to have her own freedom and privacy after she gets over her anxiety of seperation from her daughter.

As for the relatives who are making her feel guilty, she can suggest them to move in with her mother if they care so much.

[dianjan]

Your friend did the right thing by moving out, she should make her own nest and be in charge of her destiny.

In the long run the mother will be happy as well to have her own freedom and privacy after she gets over her anxiety of seperation from her daughter.

As for the relatives who are making her feel guilty, she can suggest them to move in with her mother if they care so much.

That's exactly what I told her... Her mom needs to be by herself also, even though she doesn't think so right now. And my friend is a great daughter in every sense, and I feel so bad to see her cry every evening because she moved out, and because her "Armenian" relatives always ask her why exactly her mom couldn't live with them. Oh, and I forgot to add one thing. They keep mentioning the duty of Armenian child is to take care of the family first, and how if they lived back in Armenia, she would've never moved out.

Edited March 7, 2007 by dianjan

[Sip]

I really think "kids" should live a few years on their own before getting married. With Armenians, this should probably be after college to minimize the shock on the parents

 

I just can't imagine jumping straight into marriage without having established one's own "self" ... and you just can't find your "self" without having been on your own for a while.

[SanVal]

I don't think that her mother would be happier by herself. The truth is that grandparents like to have their grandchildren very close to them (if the daughter plans on having children), and after retirement, the "freedom" older people feel when they live by themselves can be torturous. My mom's mother is almost 80 and lives by herself (in large part because my dad hates her and claims he'll move out if she moves in with my parents), and she's lived by herself for the past 12-13 years. My mom and I agree that the lack of mental stimulation that results from living by yourself at such an age, with nothing to do but watch tv and do mindless things, has contributed to my grandmother's severe case of dimensia.

 

If people wanted freedom, their own identity (or whatever you want to call it), why would they have a family and kids in the first place?

 

This isn't to say that these so-called kids shouldn't move out, but in doing so they should acknowledge their selfishness. I live in a different city from my parents, but I realize that when I decided to move, I put my interests ahead of my parents' interests. Adopting a this-is-better-for-all-of-us philosophy is just a way to assuage people's guilt.

[Ani]

I don't think that her mother would be happier by herself. The truth is that grandparents like to have their grandchildren very close to them (if the daughter plans on having children), and after retirement, the "freedom" older people feel when they live by themselves can be torturous. My mom's mother is almost 80 and lives by herself (in large part because my dad hates her and claims he'll move out if she moves in with my parents), and she's lived by herself for the past 12-13 years. My mom and I agree that the lack of mental stimulation that results from living by yourself at such an age, with nothing to do but watch tv and do mindless things, has contributed to my grandmother's severe case of dimensia.

 

If people wanted freedom, their own identity (or whatever you want to call it), why would they have a family and kids in the first place?

 

This isn't to say that these so-called kids shouldn't move out, but in doing so they should acknowledge their selfishness. I live in a different city from my parents, but I realize that when I decided to move, I put my interests ahead of my parents' interests. Adopting a this-is-better-for-all-of-us philosophy is just a way to assuage people's guilt.

 

 

 

I think it depends on the situation..

As we know many Armenian mothers did not have a "life"...All they did was cleaning, cooking and raising children...Some of their husbands cheated, others didn't care about thier wives because "txamardkuutyun" chi knoj@ hashvi arnel...Most mothers feel that they had "sacrificed" their lives for thier children...And when children are gone they have nothing else in life...

I know couples that are happy in thier marriage and they don't mind their children to live apart...

 

And Sip...Do you think the "kids-growing-up" will work for Armenian girls...Parents will rather die then see their daughters move out...

 

[Takoush]

We are living in the 21st century.....not the 19th or even the earlier part of the 20th century.

 

Yes we're Armenian and I am from the diaspora; though I am brought up with Armenian ethics and mores. However, I still believe that when a daughter is married she should go after her husband. Wherever her husband is, that's where she belongs. Usually husbands in this day and age don't necessarily want a mother-in-law to live with them. Personally, I believe that a newlywed couple should live alone. Especially the first three years are supposed to be the hardest; because these are the beginning of their years together and they now must get acquainted with each other. A third party will not only be a hindrance to the couple; but she or he will not feel at peace, because usually a couple while getting acquainted with each other; will debate, argue and sometimes fight. Who wants to be amidst all that? I wouldn't.

 

I also don't think that an Armenian boy or a girl should move out before getting married. Especially an Armenian girl. I disagree with you on that Sip; because it still doesn't work with Armenian mores and ethics, especially for girls and boys too.

 

 

[Sip]

What I said is especially true for the girls! Armenian families tend to suffocate their girls. I know traditionally this is what has been done, but that doesn't mean it's right. Move out of the house, work, study, take dance or art classes, socialize, travel, LIVE.

 

Then if you want the whole family thing, then fine. Maybe I think this way because I just do not ever see myself doing the whole family and kids thing. I have waaaaaaaay too much life to live (selfish? perhaps but why is that bad?) than to start having to worry about kids and family etc.

[Takoush]

I hear you Sip; but I don't agree with the girls going out and living all by themselves. You know how Armenian people think about the girls going and living on their own; you know what they'll call her behind her back if she did that. They'll think that she wants to have sex with guys. That's what they'll think behind her back and sometimes they'll even say it to her face too.

 

Then they'll mar her name; right or wrong and then she'll have to live with the wrong perceptions for the rest of her life.

 

No, I don't think it's a good idea to move out before marriage.

 

About yourself; well you're a man of 30ish right? It's different with you. First you're a man and then you're getting on with your years too. Like I said; personally I don't believe in settling down if you're not ready. If you don't feel ready 10 years from now then you mustn't get married. Then I don't think a couple should live with their in-laws; but in this day and age they should live alone.

[dianjan]

I don't think that her mother would be happier by herself. The truth is that grandparents like to have their grandchildren very close to them (if the daughter plans on having children), and after retirement, the "freedom" older people feel when they live by themselves can be torturous. My mom's mother is almost 80 and lives by herself (in large part because my dad hates her and claims he'll move out if she moves in with my parents), and she's lived by herself for the past 12-13 years. My mom and I agree that the lack of mental stimulation that results from living by yourself at such an age, with nothing to do but watch tv and do mindless things, has contributed to my grandmother's severe case of dimensia.

 

If people wanted freedom, their own identity (or whatever you want to call it), why would they have a family and kids in the first place?

 

This isn't to say that these so-called kids shouldn't move out, but in doing so they should acknowledge their selfishness. I live in a different city from my parents, but I realize that when I decided to move, I put my interests ahead of my parents' interests. Adopting a this-is-better-for-all-of-us philosophy is just a way to assuage people's guilt.

 

Well, I agree with you that when parents get older, it's really hard for them to live alone. But in her case, her mom is 48, and very vibrant and young and works full time. She knows when she'll have kids, her mom will live with her, but for now, she wanted to live separately. It might be selfish you're right... But I don't think it's that horrible of a choice.

[Sip]

About yourself; well you're a man of 30ish right? It's different with you.

 

Don't know about the "man" part as I am mainly just a big kid It all comes down to whether you want to live your life or you want to live what others think your life should be. If you like being tied to your parents till they or you die, and do it by choice, then fine. As long as that choice is voluntarily made, I think it's ok. But in order to make that choice, I think one needs a few years away from the parents. Trust me, they'll be fine

 

Of course extenuating circumstances can exist such as sick parents, money troubles, etc. I am not denying that sometimes it is financially and practically impossible to separate and move on. Usually financially it is more difficult to separate from parents but that should not prevent the action!

 

I must also note that when I say "move on", I do not mean cut contact with family. One can still be there when the parents/grandparents really need help (or you need theirs). What I am talking about here is mainly gaining "independence" before marriage...

[Yervant1]

Well, I agree with you that when parents get older, it's really hard for them to live alone. But in her case, her mom is 48, and very vibrant and young and works full time. She knows when she'll have kids, her mom will live with her, but for now, she wanted to live separately. It might be selfish you're right... But I don't think it's that horrible of a choice.

Oh man this is a no brainer, the mother should be alone on her own. She needs her privacy and even a new relationship and let the girl have her own life.

Usually living together does not work peacefully, there will be too many interfering into each others life and both sides will take the other for granted thats when the trouble starts. Your friend will be the one who suffers the most between her mother on one side and her husband on the other.

All this time the mother has made all the decisions in the house and she will not let go off the control and pass the torch to the younger ones and wait for the grandchildren to arrive.

My advice is to your friend hold on and at the same time visit mom as much as possible at the beginning and show her that nothing has changed and everything will be ok.

 

[Anoushik]

Don't know about the "man" part as I am mainly just a big kid It all comes down to whether you want to live your life or you want to live what others think your life should be. If you like being tied to your parents till they or you die, and do it by choice, then fine. As long as that choice is voluntarily made, I think it's ok. But in order to make that choice, I think one needs a few years away from the parents. Trust me, they'll be fine

Sip, I wish it was that easy for Armenian girls. Even if I want to live my life the way I want to, my family, culture, and society still expect me to live the life they think I should live. For many years now I've been thinking of New York. At first I thought it'd be great to earn my Masters in New York, but now that the time is here and I'll be applying to grad school, I realize that the only choice I have is to stay here in LA and go to grad school here. Which means, living with my family. I know my dad would never consent with me moving out on my own. Maybe, just maybe if my brother and I both went to grad school in New York and lived together, but on my own he wouldn't consent. Interestingly though, my mom seems Ok with the idea (but maybe she just pretends to be Ok since she knows that in no way will I live on my own). But both my parents think that my brother should experience living on his own before marriage. So, he's free to go to grad school wherever he wishes. Not fair.

Edited March 8, 2007 by anoushik

[Sip]

Definitely not fair and I definitely know what you are talking about Anoushik. I know it is not easy and that there is a huge double standard among Armenians in how they treat the males vs the females. I am sure you would do fine on your own too although New York is a crazy place.

 

But don't feel too bad ... I also stayed at home while going to grad school. I didn't leave till I was 27 So think of grad school as an opportunity to prepare your parents (dad) for what you really want. A good way to start might be to do a summer internship away from home ... just to allow the parents to realize it won't be the end of the world when you leave and that you can in fact survive on your own.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Sip

[Accelerated]

Oh, what prose Sipan!! Clearly the result of your lifelong study of the classics. And what would Ahmadinejad say about all this???

 

[Anoushik]

Definitely not fair and I definitely know what you are talking about Anoushik. I know it is not easy and that there is a huge double standard among Armenians in how they treat the males vs the females.

:sigh: ... well, at least it's good to be understood

[ED]

and my son already has plans!?

him moving to BU for grad school, this means by 2008 september

the question i wanted to ask is not yet asked to him,

and, what are chances 20 year old, after the first Semester not comming back to LA?

 

this is his great idea, >>>>"Pap, Mom, why not we all move to Boston"?

 

"his plans" are, move to Boston, finish the grad school, come visit us every month or two, get an apartmant on Newbury st. and his is going to drive there in his car so dont need a new car Pap when I move Boston

 

 

 

 

[Takoush]

and my son already has plans!?

him moving to BU for grad school, this means by 2008 september

the question i wanted to ask is not yet asked to him,

and, what are chances 20 year old, after the first Semester not comming back to LA?

 

this is his great idea, >>>>"Pap, Mom, why not we all move to Boston"? <<<<

 

"his plans" are, move to Boston, finish the grad school, come visit us every month or two, get an apartmant on Newbury st. and his is going to drive there in his car so dont need a new car Pap when I move Boston

Rubo is around there, right Ed? At least he can go and visit him every so often and Rubo can keep an eye on him too while he's there.

 

But in the end it's up to you and your wife to make that final decision about him going all the way to BU to study.

 

You have some thinking to do.

[ED]

The question Anahid is not if Rubo can go or not, of course he will, he is my brother.

The thing is ask your self the same, what if your young girl some day after she becomes adult would want to leave 3000 miles away and study?

 

its not about perents, we are what we are, fair or not, a boy or a girl, this is what they will remain to be for me as long as I'm alive, he is my boy, 19 or 59.

the only way they would understand is, some beautiful day them as well become parents. I wish very much so.

 

this has nothing to do with trust, i trust my son fully, just he is to young, not yet, he needs as around, he may not think so but he has some "initial polishing to do on his armor" before takes the first steps on his own.

 

Nietzsche said it good, when you become an adult you start resembling to Lyon, wanting your own domain established, this is equally if not stronger in both genders, more in women then man.

 

 

[Takoush]

You are right Ed. Whether it's your son or your daughter it's hard to let them go completely on their own and very far away without your guidance and your fatherly eye to be on and around him. Plus there's always dangers around that you think about and worry about them. I understand you very well as I am also a parent and it's always hard to let them go completely isn't it?

 

The fact that my daughter is also very soon becoming a teenager, this is the time for me to watch over her even more than when she was younger. There are all kinds of dangers we hear especially in NY area and here in NJ as well, or anywhere else for that matter. And it's true, it isn't that you don't trust them, it's just that "they certainly do need more polishing to go completely on their own". It is called more wisdom and to become less gauky, and that only happens with maturity.

 

I also think that we as Armenians are very protective parents. They are our offspring, our future and our pride and joy, and as Armenians we become very protective and concerned about them.

 

Nietzsche said it well and he spoke the truth. You're right, it is more for women than even men to have their domain established.

[Em]

At the age of thirteen, I convinced myself that I was going to attend UC Berkley after high school. I dreamt of becoming a journalist; traveling around the world and living the stories I wrote about. I believed in the mantra that "life is not a spectator sport", and I would not be entrapped and limited by the mere fact that I was a girl, and an Armenian one at that! Well, the young idealist in me folded very quickley. At some point during my public high school education I realized that there was no way my parents were going to allow me to drive to Irvine a few times a week much else move to the Bay area. My parents are wonderful people and pushed their daughters put education above all else, yet they failed to understand that limitations and unreasonable expectations can butcher dreams.

 

Now, I find myself a young, divorced single parent living with her parents. It seems that the crutch of "security and safety" has deeply embedded itself in my psyche. Yet, each and every day I remind my parents that this situation is temporary. I keep reinforcing the fact that very soon I will have to move out. Not just for me, but more so for my daughter's sake I feel the need to establish "our home" and "our rules". I want her to learn by example and see that we can manage on our own and still "keep a good name for our circle of friends and family".

 

My parents are getting used to the idea, and I am striving each day to become stable enough (in every sense of the word) to move out. I hope that one day, if my daughter should come up to me and tell me that she has been accepted to Oxford University and is going, I will have the courage to let her go and trust that I have done everything I could have to prepare her for entering the world as an individaul (of course I will secretly move to England and live in the same town as her..lol). It all boils down to a simple question: if our parents find us capable of getting married and being responsible for and shaping another life, why can we not be intrusted with our own lives and destinys??

 

 

[Sip]

Em, sorry if this question is too personal but it is possible you got married to get away from your parents?

[Takoush]

My parents are getting used to the idea, and I am striving each day to become stable enough (in every sense of the word) to move out. I hope that one day, if my daughter should come up to me and tell me that she has been accepted to Oxford University and is going, I will have the courage to let her go and trust that I have done everything I could have to prepare her for entering the world as an individaul (of course I will secretly move to England and live in the same town as her..lol). It all boils down to a simple question: if our parents find us capable of getting married and being responsible for and shaping another life, why can we not be intrusted with our own lives and destinys??

Em; you are a parent now and I think you understand that it's an evil world and its becoming more and more evil. When your parents consented you to get married they automatically have passed it on both your safety and your overall wellbeing and happiness into the hands of the man you were about to be married. When you come home late or odd things happen in your life, then at the time you were living with your parents; they have guided you and prompted you to tell them as a friend what's going on in your life to better guide you into safety and success in life. The minute you married; in their minds they have transferred that responsibility onto your husband. That's why.

 

Although guys can and do from time to time get into a great deal of troubles too; but more than that girls are the weaker and the prettier gender and parents are always afraid that they can be lured into the wrong circle of friends more easily when they have to sleep over somewhere else (away from home, a dormitory) for instance.

 

It's a complex, complex world Em; you and I know....; but if the evil of two things if an Armenian girl is God forbid perhaps being raped or being denied of her dreams of going away to college; (well that's a choice a dotting father and mother) have to weigh. Far away from home and not having had the maturity, the wisdom and the better know how of an 18 through 25 year olds can be hazardous to their health. That's what a dotting Armenian parents are afraid for and that's why most likely they deny their children to go away and usually far away to live by themselves or in a dormitory.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Nietzsche said it good, when you become an adult you start resembling to Lyon, wanting your own domain established, this is equally if not stronger in both genders, more in women then man.

However Ed, this does not apply in all cases. There are some circumstances that this may not apply to the norm given the fact of the different circumstances in their life (whether this applies to women or men).

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[dianjan]

Em; you are a parent now and I think you understand that it's an evil world and its becoming more and more evil. When your parents consented you to get married they automatically have passed it on both your safety and your overall wellbeing and happiness into the hands of the man you were about to be married. When you come home late or odd things happen in your life, then at the time you were living with your parents; they have guided you and prompted you to tell them as a friend what's going on in your life to better guide you into safety and success in life. The minute you married; in their minds they have transferred that responsibility onto your husband. That's why.

 

Although guys can and do from time to time get into a great deal of troubles too; but more than that girls are the weaker and the prettier gender and parents are always afraid that they can be lured into the wrong circle of friends more easily when they have to sleep over somewhere else (away from home, a dormitory) for instance.

 

It's a complex, complex world Em; you and I know....; but if the evil of two things if an Armenian girl is God forbid perhaps being raped or being denied of her dreams of going away to college; (well that's a choice a dotting father and mother) have to weigh. Far away from home and not having had the maturity, the wisdom and the better know how of an 18 through 25 year olds can be hazardous to their health. That's what a dotting Armenian parents are afraid for and that's why most likely they deny their children to go away and usually far away to live by themselves or in a dormitory.

I have to disagree with one thing. I don't think that women are weaker sex and if parents have brought them up right, they will not be lured into the wrong circles and do something that they shouldn't even if they are 1000 miles away from parents.

The problem in Armenian society was that the norm was to stay home if you were a female. You get married and then you can leave. Not a minute before that. Here it's all different, and I wanted to move out on my own before marriage, and was strictly forbidden. I lived for 23 years at home, then got married and now am living with my husband.

I know that there were opportunities that I've missed out on because of this upbringing, and I really hope that when it's my turn to let go, I will be able to.