Aratta-Kingdom Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 ARMENIANS CELEBRATED 3,000 VICTORIES IN 5,000 YEARS YEREVAN, JANUARY 7, ARMENPRESS: The Noravank Foundation, a think-tank based in Yerevan, dealing with political, cultural and economic studies, said it will publish a book called "Victories of Armenians." Foundation's director Gagik Harutunian said the book will tell about all victories the Armenian nation celebrated throughout its millennia-long history. He said the book will present in detail all victories Armenians have had in their 5000 year-long history. "Minute studies show that Armenians have celebrated overall 3,000 military victories," he added. "Although Armenians also suffered defeats but there are few nations in the world that can boast of winning 3,000 military battles," he said. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I knew that the armenian military genius worked miracles before. I also knew the french saying that every morning 3 million Napoleons wake up in Armenia. But 3,000 victories? ...WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Maybe they counted the inter-village skirmishes too. What is funny is that I'm sure half of those victories were loses again for Armenians, but this time different Armenians. Byzantine Armenians v. Persian Armenians. During Cilician times - Armenians allied with Mongols against Armenians allied with Francs. Ottoman times - Armenians fighting for the Turks v. Armenians fighting for the Russians. Russo- Persian wars - same thing. WWI same....WWII ...again - Armenian Legion in the Wermacht and Soviet Armenian army getting in Berlin... SAD, VERY SAD.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Maybe they counted the inter-village skirmishes too. What is funny is that I'm sure half of those victories were loses again for Armenians, but this time different Armenians. Byzantine Armenians v. Persian Armenians. During Cilician times - Armenians allied with Mongols against Armenians allied with Francs. Ottoman times - Armenians fighting for the Turks v. Armenians fighting for the Russians. Russo- Persian wars - same thing. WWI same....WWII ...again - Armenian Legion in the Wermacht and Soviet Armenian army getting in Berlin... SAD, VERY SAD.... Precisely. It's particularly true for the Middle Ages, every time Byzantium attacked Bagratuni Armenia it was by the order of an Armenian (alebit Chalcedonian) with the bulk of the attacking troops being Armenian. Not to mention the many Armenian feudal principalities constantly warring against eachother. Just like most attempts to publish historical works in Armenia I suspect this one will also lack an ounce of objectivity and include such battles as Hayk vs Bell. I didn't know Armenians waged war 5,000 years ago during the first dynasty of Egypt, wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyeFedayis Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 This is interesting and by the way when we fought the Persians we actually lost militarily but they never converted us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Maybe they counted the inter-village skirmishes too. What is funny is that I'm sure half of those victories were loses again for Armenians, but this time different Armenians. what makes you say that? Byzantine Armenians v. Persian Armenians. those where the geo-political situation of the time. armenians from the persian side also fought alexander the great. the armenians, in fact, were very successful. During Cilician times - Armenians allied with Mongols against Armenians allied with Francs. great point. i want you now to tell me what brought to the collapse of the cilician kingdom. Ottoman times - Armenians fighting for the Turks v. Armenians fighting for the Russians. in 1914 you already had 350,00 armenian men from the ottoman army killed. the armenians from the russian side were part of the russian empire. Russo- Persian wars - same thing. WWI same.... what exactly happened in WWI? WWII ...again - Armenian Legion in the Wermacht and Soviet Armenian army getting in Berlin... SAD, VERY SAD.... in WWII you also had russian, ukrainian, georgian, azeri, and even jewish legions. can you give me an sigle example when an armenian legioner has shot a sigle bullet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 This is interesting and by the way when we fought the Persians we actually lost militarily but they never converted us. how could it be? they came, they fought, they lost thousands of soldiers and they just went away without collecting taxes or converting us? do you see what is happening in iraq now? that's exactly what happened after avarair. yes fedayi, the armenian fedayis fought the persians all the way to the heart of the empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I agree with gamavor and eurocentric. Hayk vs. Bell and Taron vs. Fourth Armenia do not constitute national victories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I agree with gamavor and eurocentric. Hayk vs. Bell and Taron vs. Fourth Armenia do not constitute national victories. i don't want to consider hayk vs bell a 'national victory' either. but i also hate to see hyeforum to be turned into an online ghetto where gossipe and empty talks rule. instead of making predictions, why don't we just wait until the book is published!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) This is interesting and by the way when we fought the Persians we actually lost militarily but they never converted us. Has anyone heard of “baroyakan haghtanak/ծբարոյական յաղթանակ/moral victory”? Examples would be that “victory at Avarayr”, and “victory in 1915”. After all they lost, we won. We are still here. Give me one instance when we won property, not morality. Please exclude the heroes of Artsakh. Is it not time we forget all those “moral victories” and move to territorial ones? When is the time when the “moral” filled our bellies. Por chi kshtatsner/փոր չի կշտացներ. Or has anyone heard - “ayrats srti kak mkhitaarank/այրած սրտի քաք մխիթարանք”? Por shi kshtatsnI/ՓՈՐ ՉԻ ԿՇՏԱՑՆԻ. Edited January 8, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyeFedayis Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 how could it be? they came, they fought, they lost thousands of soldiers and they just went away without collecting taxes or converting us? do you see what is happening in iraq now? that's exactly what happened after avarair. yes fedayi, the armenian fedayis fought the persians all the way to the heart of the empire. Armenia numbered around 60 thousand while they numbered around 200 thousand we lost thousands. The only reason why we see it as a win is because they never converted us but militarily we lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I agree with Arpa. After Tigran Mets millenias have past. It is only now that we have gained our historical territories back. It is time to look back on the history and learn the lessons. Next time we shouldn't send Xrimyan Hayrik to the Berlin Congress. We should send a real diplomat with better skills than turks or british. Next time we shouldn't leave Kars without a battle. Next time we shouldn't trust russian army to liberate Van and stay there to protect us. All these are historical facts and we should learn our lessons finally, because history has a tendence to repeat. P.S. First exam will be Karabakh's issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) Armenia numbered around 60 thousand while they numbered around 200 thousand we lost thousands. The only reason why we see it as a win is because they never converted us but militarily we lost. HyeF... Have you seen my posts about "qarsoun", "ersoun" and "Vatsoun hazar zinvornerov". Can we stop this mythology about "qarsoun hazar", "ersoun hazar" and "Vatsoun hazar" and get back to earth when we antagonized the 400,000 Persians with 40 idiots, the likes of Vardan Mamikonean (remember he was Chinese? :) . With qarsoun idiots against 400,000 Ottomans. And, yet we still insist calling those incidents as (moral) "victory", when the Persians sit on 40% of our lands and the Ottomans sit on the other 90%? Does that add? Give me one victory! F*** the moral ones! How do you expect a victory when more tha 80% of us don't even know where Yerevan is. Does anyone know this song;? Իմ հայրենեաց Արեւ Վարդան Հոգիս հոգվուդ եղնի ղուրբան** Որ Տղմուտի ափերի քով Վացուն* հազար զինուորներով Զակիր զարկուար Ինկար քաջ քաջ Պարսիկն սփրուած ի աջ ու ձախ . *Note the mythical number vatsoun? ** When did “ghourban” become an Armenian word? Edited January 8, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 I know Arpa !!! I was born there I agree with you but ! I consider Vartan Mamikonyan a real Armenian. I don't care about his origin. He and his ancestors lead our armies and sacroficed their own lives in the wars for our nation and country. In my opinion Vartan is 100 % hay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 i don't want to consider hayk vs bell a 'national victory' either. but i also hate to see hyeforum to be turned into an online ghetto where gossipe and empty talks rule. instead of making predictions, why don't we just wait until the book is published!?! No predictions are being made my friend. I am sure it will be a fine book. I also agree with you about the recent quality of our forum. As you'll notice, I've been posting less and less lately, for all I see is either a jerk Turk (pay attention to jerk, not Turk) inciting another mudsling or the same tired "We are Chinese/We are not Chinese" nonsensical "lets-egg-hagarag-fest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 to analize the ancient history through the lenses of nationalism is misleading... nationality/ethnicity has hardly been a factor until late middle ages... first and for most, people/commoners (the vast majority of population) identified themselves with religious sects, ruling dynasties, families, political/social pacts, etc rather than with nationality or ethnicity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 to analize the ancient history through the lenses of nationalism is misleading... nationality/ethnicity has hardly been a factor until late middle ages... first and for most, people/commoners (the vast majority of population) identified themselves with religious sects, ruling dynasties, families, political/social pacts, etc rather than with nationality or ethnicity... are you serious? nationality has been a factor since the dawn of time. nationnalism founded nations, and civilisation, not the other way around. nations are built throught the desire of surpassing the neighbour. civilisation is created with the goal of overpowering the other. Nationalism has ALWAYS been a factor, without nationnalism, there is no victory. imagine a war faught without the desire to win (vietnam) cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 to analize the ancient history through the lenses of nationalism is misleading... nationality/ethnicity has hardly been a factor until late middle ages... first and for most, people/commoners (the vast majority of population) identified themselves with religious sects, ruling dynasties, families, political/social pacts, etc rather than with nationality or ethnicity... Right on! However pitiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 HyeF... Have you seen my posts about "qarsoun", "ersoun" and "Vatsoun hazar zinvornerov". Can we stop this mythology about "qarsoun hazar", "ersoun hazar" and "Vatsoun hazar" and get back to earth when we antagonized the 400,000 Persians with 40 idiots, the likes of Vardan Mamikonean (remember he was Chinese? :) . With qarsoun idiots against 400,000 Ottomans. And, yet we still insist calling those incidents as (moral) "victory", when the Persians sit on 40% of our lands and the Ottomans sit on the other 90%? Does that add? Give me one victory! F*** the moral ones! How do you expect a victory when more tha 80% of us don't even know where Yerevan is. Does anyone know this song;? Իմ հայրենեաց Արեւ Վարդան Հոգիս հոգվուդ եղնի ղուրբան** Որ Տղմուտի ափերի քով Վացուն* հազար զինուորներով Զակիր զարկուար Ինկար քաջ քաջ Պարսիկն սփրուած ի աջ ու ձախ . *Note the mythical number vatsoun? ** When did “ghourban” become an Armenian word? Arpa, your comments have always been extrem but this one takes the cake. who are you to call these men "idiots"? tell me "oh brave arpa", where were you when sartarabad refused to fall? where were you when dikrans noble nights rode to the rescue of dikranagert and made it inside the city with nothing but 2000 men against a full roman army? where were you when Musa dagh refused to lay down and die? where were you when cilicia opened its gates to let the crusaders in? where were you when artsakh fedayis stood up to azeri pigs? where were you when... YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU A VICTORY?! IL GIVE YOU A VICTORY...WE ARE STILL HERE! thats the victory worth fighting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Armo Armen. im answering your previous post. yes, there were all kinds of legions in all kinds of armies. In the wermarcht however there was an armenina legion (812th battalion) wich i think is a joke for all the skinhead armenians who use it as proof of our arienness. the 812th was indeed sent to battle against armenian soviet troops. but the armenians in the german army were known to have freed the captured armenians and made them join there ranks. they also were very famous for helping the jews escape throught holland. a nation who has suffered genocide does not help out in commiting another. there is even a book written by a jew who was saved by armenians and helped to reach safety in the US. the armenian legion was disbanded later on because of lack of trust from hitler. he prefered moslems because they can kill without remorse, wich leads me to my next point... in the 3 reich there was in fact, an azeri legion, who was very effective and recognised by hitler. by the end of WW2 general tro (armenian legion commander) was pardonned by allied forces and lived a happy life in the United states...simply because him and his men had no implication in the atrocities that were carried out against the jewish peoples of europe. another point I would like to make is, one of those "victories" that better not be mentionned is the clash between soviet and dashnak armenians in 1922 that cost 20 000 armenian deaths. this in my opinion is the saddest day in armenian history. not genocide. the day that an armenian raises tha hand on another. i hope we learn to live in unity because we cant afford to be divided anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 nationnalism founded nations, and civilisation, not the other way around. civilisation is created with the goal of overpowering the other. That's false. The "Nation notion" does not predate civilization. Far before the developement of a kin ethnic into the identification of nationhood, a sociologic group can be considered a civilization. Nationalism is a 18th century invention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 That's false. The "Nation notion" does not predate civilization. Far before the developement of a kin ethnic into the identification of nationhood, a sociologic group can be considered a civilization. Nationalism is a 18th century invention. certainly not 18th century nationnalism has always been around. as i said before, without nationnalism a nation cannot expand or advance in any way. in order for all those ancient civilisations to advance, there had to be a sense of nationnalsim. imagine a war faught without the desire to win (vietnam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 nationnalism has always been around. as i said before, without nationnalism a nation cannot expand or advance in any way. in order for all those ancient civilisations to advance, there had to be a sense of nationnalsim. Those ancient civilizations didn't concider themselves "nations" as we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Those ancient civilizations didn't concider themselves "nations" as we do. whats dyou mean zartong jan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Arpa, your comments have always been extrem but this one takes the cake. who are you to call these men "idiots"? tell me "oh brave arpa", where were you when sartarabad refused to fall? where were you when dikrans noble nights rode to the rescue of dikranagert and made it inside the city with nothing but 2000 men against a full roman army? where were you when Musa dagh refused to lay down and die? where were you when cilicia opened its gates to let the crusaders in? where were you when artsakh fedayis stood up to azeri pigs? where were you when... YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU A VICTORY?! IL GIVE YOU A VICTORY...WE ARE STILL HERE! thats the victory worth fighting for. I think you are reinforcing Arpa's point. These are all moral victories. Turkey's population is almost 80 mil. It still holds lands we Armenians consider our homeland and it is a regionally important nations with close ties to superpowers. Armenia's population is less then 3mil it has an insignifican economy and is considered a political backwater. The brave souls who liberated Artsak also put Armenia on the map and gave it some regional importance. Those are the types of Armenians we should all strive to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) I think you are reinforcing Arpa's point. These are all moral victories. just like that. you even wanna ignore the victories from the past 100 years? you think what happened in shushi, sardarapat, or what the troops of 89th Tamanyan Division did can be called a moral victory? Turkey's population is almost 80 mil. this is what we keep hearing from the turks lately. i'll make it easier for you...80million + 7 million azeri turks = 87 million It still holds lands we Armenians consider our homeland AND YOU ARE SAYING IT'S NOT TRUE? and it is a regionally important nations with close ties to superpowers. after the collapse of the soviet union, the turks are pushed to the corner by the same superpowers. the turks have betrayed all the superpowers and made them mad... Armenia's population is less then 3mil it has an insignifican economy and is considered a political backwater. less than 3million? never underestimate the strength of the armenian spirit and the power of the brain. Armenia vs the World and we are the Chess Olympic Champion. where the hell is your 80 + 7 million turks in this? The brave souls who liberated Artsak also put Armenia on the map and gave it some regional importance. Those are the types of Armenians we should all strive to be. the brave souls truly have done a great job but could not succeed without the support of the ordinary people. when armenia was left alone against the red army, azerbaijan, turkey, israel(and the jews from different parts of the world), the oil companies, the terrorists(from afghanistan, chechnya, and the arab states...), the brave people of armenia formed a united front against the common enemy. do i need to tell you what happened next? Edited January 11, 2007 by ArmoArmeN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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