Error 404 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hey guys, here is a scenario. Imagine Turkey accepts the genocide and under circumstances returns our historical lands. WHat is going to happen to the kurdish population of it? I am sure turks will move out but kurds will stay there. How many 20 million? We are going to be a minority in our own country. Probably get 3 or 5 seats in parliament. Because De Jure we can't take the lands without the population. They will become automatically the citizens of Armenia. De Facto we have a problem Huston. Zurderer (turkish ***hole) mentioned this issue before but I think he has got a point here. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 You think this new? I think you are not more intelligent than my hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Zurderer turkish hats are more intelligent than what they are covering. Stop being smartass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Okey. Just couldnt resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hey guys, here is a scenario. Imagine Turkey accepts the genocide and under circumstances returns our historical lands. WHat is going to happen to the kurdish population of it? I am sure turks will move out but kurds will stay there. How many 20 million? We are going to be a minority in our own country. Probably get 3 or 5 seats in parliament. Because De Jure we can't take the lands without the population. They will become automatically the citizens of Armenia. De Facto we have a problem Huston. Zurderer (turkish ***hole) mentioned this issue before but I think he has got a point here. Any thoughts? There is more then one way to address this issue. If "lands" are returned then it depends on the lands in question. For the sake of argument we say the Turks have achieved enlightment. It may mean they provide some "lands" to Kurds as well. Assuming for the sake of argument that Armenia receives lands in the NorthEast and Kurds in the SouthEast and that these lands to not share a common border then there is not such a big problem. The lands comprising Ararat, Kars going north to the Black Sea are not heavily populated. The Kurdish population would probably be reduced by migration to a free Kurdish homeland. Additionally, Armenia can always make an agreement to exchange populations with a new Kurdish state. these are the more palatable options. if the return of lands is handled in a less then amicable fashion then it is possible that the current population of these lands would see a more drastic reduction due to fleeing from conflict. An important thing to realize is that since the Turks have not provided much to these regions in terms of development, a new gov't with a positive attitude may not be unwelcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 if the return of lands is handled in a less then amicable fashion then it is possible that the current population of these lands would see a more drastic reduction due to fleeing from conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 I see but 20 million is alot. There will be still 2-3 million kurds left in their current locations even if Turkey provides lands for "kurdistan" to them. I mean whatever quantity moves down to their new homeland from north east turkey there will be 2 or 3 million left which is still alot. We could have offer them free homes in their lands "kurdistan" or in Iraq but we need money for that. Very delicate question... Anyway kurds are traitors. They killed more armenians before and during genocide then turks. They stole young children after killing their parents and made them kurdish. The coexistence with them in one homeland is not possible. Although Andranik Zoravar took a revenge after the Van refugee massacre. But it was like a drip in a sea... Probably turkey will be more than happy to transfer those lands to us. It will end their sufferings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 There is more then one way to address this issue. If "lands" are returned then it depends on the lands in question. For the sake of argument we say the Turks have achieved enlightment. It may mean they provide some "lands" to Kurds as well. Assuming for the sake of argument that Armenia receives lands in the NorthEast and Kurds in the SouthEast and that these lands to not share a common border then there is not such a big problem. The lands comprising Ararat, Kars going north to the Black Sea are not heavily populated. The Kurdish population would probably be reduced by migration to a free Kurdish homeland. Additionally, Armenia can always make an agreement to exchange populations with a new Kurdish state. these are the more palatable options. if the return of lands is handled in a less then amicable fashion then it is possible that the current population of these lands would see a more drastic reduction due to fleeing from conflict. An important thing to realize is that since the Turks have not provided much to these regions in terms of development, a new gov't with a positive attitude may not be unwelcome. What would prove problematic under this scenario is that Turkey would be ceding land to TWO different groups. Inevitably, the Kurds would question why they are not receiving the region given to Armenians, and likely vice versa. More land with more hostility doesn't quite make for greener pastures. Besides, even if the exchanges were conducted amicably, it would make any and all cessation of land to Armenia contingent upon an simultaneous cessation of land to a future Kurdistan. I'm not sure how much support that kind of pre-condition would garner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 if you can't beat them then join them. winners write history. if its good enough for the Turkey then its good enough for Armenia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 I see but 20 million is alot. There will be still 2-3 million kurds left in their current locations even if Turkey provides lands for "kurdistan" to them. I mean whatever quantity moves down to their new homeland from north east turkey there will be 2 or 3 million left which is still alot. We could have offer them free homes in their lands "kurdistan" or in Iraq but we need money for that. Very delicate question... Anyway kurds are traitors. They killed more armenians before and during genocide then turks. They stole young children after killing their parents and made them kurdish. The coexistence with them in one homeland is not possible. Although Andranik Zoravar took a revenge after the Van refugee massacre. But it was like a drip in a sea... Probably turkey will be more than happy to transfer those lands to us. It will end their sufferings. depends on the territories in question. i don't have exact demographic figures but based on the population size of the cities in the 5 regions bordering ARmenia/Georgia the population in those regions is less then 1 mil. go past that and then you have a demographic problem for Armenia. I figure best bet for Armenians no matter the circumstance of "Land Return" is to take what can be populated by Armenians and defended by Armenians. The rest you worry about in the future. (Hopefully after the Turks and Kurds have a couple of wars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 What would prove problematic under this scenario is that Turkey would be ceding land to TWO different groups. Inevitably, the Kurds would question why they are not receiving the region given to Armenians, and likely vice versa. More land with more hostility doesn't quite make for greener pastures. Besides, even if the exchanges were conducted amicably, it would make any and all cessation of land to Armenia contingent upon an simultaneous cessation of land to a future Kurdistan. I'm not sure how much support that kind of pre-condition would garner. That is why I specified that Armenia and Kurdistan do not share a border. This makes it less problomatic to resolve and demographic issues. Besides look at the # of cities in the regions near to present day Armenia. This is not the most developed area of Turkey. You probably have more rural/nomadic type herdsmen as you do urban dwellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 12, 2006 Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 I see but 20 million is alot. There will be still 2-3 million kurds left in their current locations even if Turkey provides lands for "kurdistan" to them. I mean whatever quantity moves down to their new homeland from north east turkey there will be 2 or 3 million left which is still alot. Let be serious, Noone let you to ethnic cleanse 17 million people, If you do this, most probably you would be ethnic cleansed. If you want to try something like this, try it. But dont forget possible price. We could have offer them free homes in their lands "kurdistan" or in Iraq but we need money for that. You cannot offer someone free homes at other ones land. I should also add, If you have free house, offer it to armenians(who is leaving ROA, because of poorness.) Probably turkey will be more than happy to transfer those lands to us. It will end their sufferings. I dont think so we have not much problem with majority of Kurds. With enhancing democracy in Turkey, We would have less problem. What would prove problematic under this scenario is that Turkey would be ceding land to TWO different groups. Turkey will never do this.Infact no country will do this. if you can't beat them then join them. winners write history. if its good enough for the Turkey then its good enough for Armenia! realy?So you say what Turkey did to armenians were acceptable, and If you had chance you will do it? Infact I think my Hat is more intelligent than both you and me(Acording to error guy) Your first alternative is stupid, Turks will leave their lands, give it armenia? Be serious,what is turkish benefit here? why should we accept ethnic cleansing of our people. Second one is more stupid, Your soldiers cannot protect even, cannot occupy such a large land. You are even loosing karabak. Also population exchange is stupid, because you have no population at kurdish or Turkish land. So noone will accept this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 12, 2006 Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 Turkey will never do this.Infact no country will do this. realy?So you say what Turkey did to armenians were acceptable, and If you had chance you will do it? Infact I think my Hat is more intelligent than both you and me(Acording to error guy) Your first alternative is stupid, Turks will leave their lands, give it armenia? Be serious,what is turkish benefit here? why should we accept ethnic cleansing of our people. Second one is more stupid, Your soldiers cannot protect even, cannot occupy such a large land. You are even loosing karabak. Also population exchange is stupid, because you have no population at kurdish or Turkish land. So noone will accept this. You take what I intended as a joke far too seriously. If Armenians had it in them to be like Turks, then we would not have this discussion because Turks along with every other nationality in Anatolia would have been wiped out by Armenians who were the majority when your lot first came on the scene. I don't believe Turkey would give back even Ararat much less 4 of their regions to Armenia or anyone else. Since the founding of your republic you have had a Kurdish problem. Despite your delusions you are not invincible nor united. It is a matter of time and pressure before something gives. Armenians need to be patient and focus on building up its abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 I see but 20 million is alot. There will be still 2-3 million kurds left in their current locations even if Turkey provides lands for "kurdistan" to them. I mean whatever quantity moves down to their new homeland from north east turkey there will be 2 or 3 million left which is still alot. There are around 20 million Kurds in Turkey in total[/], including in the regions outside of what might be taken by Armenia. There are Kurdish communities everywhere in Turkey, even in Istanbul and the rest of Western Turkey. Moreover, it is known that Kurds have a lot of children (probably around 8 per family), thus there are more Armenian families in Armenia than there are Kurdish ones in Eastern Turkey. And if Armenia gets those territories, it would be normal that the former inhabitants would want to leave. This is what happened when there was the risk of Quebec separating from Canada in 1995. Around 200,000 Anglophones and others left the province. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 . If Armenians had it in them to be like Turks, then we would not have this discussion because Turks along with every other nationality in Anatolia would have been wiped out by Armenians who were the majority when your lot first came on the scene. Turks did not come so weak. They came with arms. I should also say, We have more oportunity to wipe armenian at last 1000 year, You have not. Despite your delusions you are not invincible nor united. I did not say we are, but I afraid kurdish nationalism more than armenian one. Armenians need to be patient and focus on building up its abilities. A realistic approach, but I dont see this new and powerful ROA, and most probably I wont see it in my life too. And if Armenia gets those territories, it would be normal that the former inhabitants would want to leave. Most probably They wont, not because They would not wish(after all how many Muslim Turks or Kurds want to live under armenian rule), but they would not capacity to left their land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted December 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Zurderer ethnic cleansing is turkish way of solving questions. Karabakh is not lost actually vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmd Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) Turks did not come so weak. They came with arms. I should also say, We have more oportunity to wipe armenian at last 1000 year, You have not. I did not say we are, but I afraid kurdish nationalism more than armenian one. A realistic approach, but I dont see this new and powerful ROA, and most probably I wont see it in my life too. Most probably They wont, not because They would not wish(after all how many Muslim Turks or Kurds want to live under armenian rule), but they would not capacity to left their land. The Kurdish population and overall demographics of Turkey is the Achille's heel of your nation. Armenia does not need to have overwhelming power over Turkey. Only enough to take what it needs if/when your nation is at its weakest(divided). After all this is what Turks have done historically to all other nations they conquered. Remember your own history so that you will not be too shocked when it repeats itself, with you on the receiving end. Edited December 13, 2006 by gmd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zurderer Posted December 14, 2006 Report Share Posted December 14, 2006 The Kurdish population and overall demographics of Turkey is the Achille's heel of your nation. Armenia does not need to have overwhelming power over Turkey. Only enough to take what it needs if/when your nation is at its weakest(divided). After all this is what Turks have done historically to all other nations they conquered. Remember your own history so that you will not be too shocked when it repeats itself, with you on the receiving end. we were divided at independence and ww1 wars. So divided Turkey does not mean, You will gain anything. I should also add, kurds maybe a danger for us, but they are absolutely an oportunity for us too. They are helping our state much. Dont think everyone of them is terrorist. ethnic cleansing is turkish way of solving questions. a complicated answer, It looks like you searched Turkish politicians and history much. I should not discuss someone with you, who talk only proofs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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