Armenian In The "odar"'s Ears

[Arpa]

OK Arpa. I think you wanted to say that the barbarian language that the Greeks heard and couldn't understand was in fact a dialect (barbar/parpar) of the Armenian language.

I don't you think guys are following my train of thought. Maybe my English is not clear enough and I cannot get my message across clearly.

I don't think the Greeks had Armenans or the Armenian language in mind when they coined that word, and neither the Armenian "barbar" had anything to do with the Greeks, even if both words are based on the fact that "barbarian" and "barbar" may have been based on the fact that one could not understandthe other, yet the Greeks invented that word not so much to describe Armenian but other languages mainly to their south, may be Arabic and their kin. Consider the fact that the African Mediterranean coast is still known as the Barbary Coast and some ihabitants there are still known as "berbers", i.e Barbarian.

In our language "barbar" has eneded up meaning "dialect" while "barbarian" still means "uncivilized/savage".

Edited July 25, 2006 by Arpa

[Dave]

"berbers"

 

I had that in mind but it didn't really click...

 

Did the Berbers exist during the Hellenistic age? Weren't the Phoenicians colonizing parts of North Africa back then?

 

The Greeks might have had Persian, Illirian, or even the Macedonian dialect of Greek in mind.

[Harut]

not much relavent to the topic on hand, but just to point out that differences in spelling in armenian...

բարբառ

բարբարոս (based on barbarian)

[Zartonk]

I fancy how the coincidental Armenian interpretation of barbarian (your word-my word) turns out to be more poetic than the "babbling" lable of the Greek. It's also interesting to notice the tie between Berber and Barbaros.

[Zartonk]

Take a look at the following definition of barbarian.

 

a. (Ancient Greece) any non-Greek b. (Ancient China) any non-Chinese, but applied especially upon non-Confucianist cultures c. (Ancient Rome) Any non-Roman, derived from the Greek term d. (Renaissance Italy) One of a nation outside of Italy. e. One outside the pale of Christian civilization. f. A native of Barbary [French barbarien < Latin barbarus < Greek βάρβαρος (barbaros) "foreign", "rude", "ignorant" < barbar probably a primary reference to how a foreigner's speech sounded; perhaps akin to Sanskrit barbara "stammering", "non-Aryan"]

 

 

Barb-Ara: un-Aryan, an-Aryakan?

 

 

What if the ancient Hellens borrowed their term for alien from the very language of the kinsmen of one of the alien peoples? The Irony would be regal...

Edited July 26, 2006 by Zartonk

[Arpa]

Oh! Wow! Look who is back! That greatest "barbaros"(e)* of all Nairi. :)

*Barbarose as in verbose. :)

Take a look at the following definition of barbarian.

 

a. (Ancient Greece) any non-Greek b. (Ancient China) any non-Chinese, but applied especially upon non-Confucianist cultures c. (Ancient Rome) Any non-Roman, derived from the Greek term d. (Renaissance Italy) One of a nation outside of Italy. e. One outside the pale of Christian civilization. f. A native of Barbary [French barbarien < Latin barbarus < Greek βάρβαρος (barbaros) "foreign", "rude", "ignorant" < barbar probably a primary reference to how a foreigner's speech sounded; perhaps akin to Sanskrit barbara "stammering", "non-Aryan"]

Barb-Ara: un-Aryan, an-Aryakan?

What if the ancient Hellens borrowed their term for alien from the very language of the kinsmen of one of the alien peoples? The Irony would be regal...

Thank you Zartonk for bringing us an extended definition of “barbarian/barbaros”. It is obvious that the word has been invented and used by many diverse cultures all the way from France to India, which only means one thing that it is an onomatopoeic word, bnadzayn/բնաձայն, i.e “based on sound..

In the meantime, not really relevant, or maybe it is look at Barbarossa, literally red beard, and get surprise !!

From the below site;

born c. 1123

died June 10, 1190, Kingdom of Armenia

byname Friedrich Barbarossa (Italian: Redbeard

 

http://www.class.uh.edu/gbrown/philosopher...Barbarossa.html

 

Zartonk, with your kind indulgence, let me copy and paste above dictionary entry under another topic.

[kakachik77]

barbarossa just happens to rhyme but has nothing to do with barbarian, it is from a Latin or Greek stem which means hair or beard, hence the word "barber"

[Arpa]

barbarossa just happens to rhyme but has nothing to do with barbarian, it is from a Latin or Greek stem which means hair or beard, hence the word "barber"

Very good Kakachik, bringing to our attention ”barba” and ‘barber”.

But do please read my posts more closely. I try to be as little "verbose" as possible, even at times I may miserably fail . I did say that barba rossa” means red beard, and I made a tongue in cheek comment when I said, “not really relevant, yet maybe”, where I meant that Barbarossa (RedBeard)may be considered a barbarian by some.

I have a colleague with a surname of Barbagelata. She was not even aware that it stood for “frozen beard” until I pointed it. Then she was fascinated.

I just looked up my local phone book to see how many surnames are based on “barb”. Assuming all Italian.

Barba, Barbagallo, Barbagelata, Barbalace, Barbalios(Greek?), Barbanel, Barbar, Barbaresi, Barbaro, Barbarotto, Barbarulo.

Not to forget the Armenian surname Moroukian, some may have been abbreviated from such as Sev-Moroukian. Not to forget the late CNN Armenia correspondent, (may he RIP), Mavisakalian, literally blue beard from Turkish.

BTW. What is the basis for that Armenian personal name Morous, as in Morous Hasratian.

Look here;

 

Vahakni Tzound@ by Khorenatzi

 

Yerkner erkin, erkner erkir,

Erkner yev tzovn tzirani.

Erkni tzovoun ouner ev zkarmrikn eghegnik.

 

@nd yeghegan pogh tzoukh yelaner,

@nd eghegan pogh botz elaner,

Ev i botzvouyn vazer khartyash patanekik.

 

Na hour her ouner,

Botz ouner morous,

Ev achkounkn eyin aregakounk.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Arpa

[gamavor]

Vahakni Tzound@ by Khorenatzi

 

Yerkner erkin, erkner erkir,

Erkner yev tzovn tzirani.

Erkni tzovoun ouner ev zkarmrikn eghegnik.

 

@nd yeghegan pogh tzoukh yelaner,

@nd eghegan pogh botz elaner,

Ev i botzvouyn vazer khartyash patanekik.

 

Na hour her ouner,

Botz ouner morous,

Ev achkounkn eyin aregakounk.

 

The Old Armenian truly sounds Gaelic...

[Zartonk]

Has anyone here ever wondered weather the Greeks associated any specific, non-linguistic characteristic and custom with the barbarian nations...?

 

I was reviewing an introductory book on the prehistoric development of the Armenian people today and in a chapter regarding the domestication of animals and the beginnings of dairy products I came across this statement by the author:

 

"...Records indicate that [following the nomadic attacks on the Agean in the 8th-7th centuries B.C.] the Greeks began to call the Scythians and the Cimmerians the "milk-eaters" (katnakerner), thus holding milk and it's consumption as the behavior that seperated them as [the non-Greek] "Barbarians".

 

So it was milk...No feta for the philosophers

Edited July 28, 2006 by Zartonk

[Zartonk]

Zartonk, with your kind indulgence, let me copy and paste above dictionary entry under another topic

 

Anshoosht.

[nairi]

Yes, I would argue that the way Armenian sounds to foreigners all depends on which dialect.

 

In a Chinese restaurant, the Chinese waiter thought my cousin and I were speaking Farsi, because he had a Persian friend and thought that what we were speaking sounded like what his friend spoke. I'm not surprised.

 

I have myself caught myself hearing Turks speak Armenian and Turkish Armenians speak Turkish.

 

As for American Armenians, yes, definitely American.