15levels Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) Can someone point out where was the location of Sasun fortress in the Sasna Tzrer Epos? Is it Vaspurakan? And another question. King Gagik (father of Tsovinar) in the Epos.. who could be the historical reference for him? Edited July 12, 2006 by 15levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Here is the part of the map with Mush and Sasun on it (in armenian). It's west of Van lake somewhere between Taron and Aghdsniq. In Tavors maountains. http://www.armsite.com/maps/images/map-western-big2.jpg As far as to Tsovinar I thnik it is reffered to Axtamar (correct me if I am wrong). And Gagik is the King Gagik I (915-921) who built the fortress on Axtamar and it was the kings palace (I would say even the capital of Armenia for a little while). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) Can someone point out where was the location of Sasun fortress in the Sasna Tzrer Epos? Is it Vaspurakan? And another question. King Gagik (father of Tsovinar) in the Epos.. who could be the historical reference for him? Hello, There has never been a Sasun Fortess. Sasun is a region in Mush Valley that consisted of several towns and villages. The Fortress Sasun in Sasna Tsrer is an imaginery fortress like the Shambala in Tibetan tales and Kitezhgrad in the Russian tales. King Gagik represents an era of Armenian history, not some historical personality. Similarly, Sasna Davit represents the Christian period and Poqr Mher simbolizes Armenia's future. You might remember that Davit is the one who builts Maruta Vank, and before that there is no notice of Chritian religion either in Mets Mher or in Sanasar and Baghdasar parts. That is because the parts that come before Sasna Davit tell about pre-Christian Armenia. Mets Mher simbolizes Armenia's Romano-Hellenic period and Sanasar-Baghdasar the Persian period. However, it is the Sasuntsi Davit part that simbolizes the present Armenian identity and consciousness. Edited July 12, 2006 by Armen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The only Fortress that I can remember is in Van. The remains of the Fortress anyway. Here are the photos: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 There has never been a Sasun Fortess. Sasun is a region in Mush Valley that consisted of several towns and villages. The Fortress Sasun in Sasna Tsrer is an imaginery fortress like the Shambala in Tibetan tales and Kitezhgrad in the Russian tales. For the Armenians, Sassoun was a natural fortress and an eagle's nest for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Hello, There has never been a Sasun Fortess. Sasun is a region in Mush Valley that consisted of several towns and villages. The Fortress Sasun in Sasna Tsrer is an imaginery fortress like the Shambala in Tibetan tales and Kitezhgrad in the Russian tales. King Gagik represents an era of Armenian history, not some historical personality. Similarly, Sasna Davit represents the Christian period and Poqr Mher simbolizes Armenia's future. You might remember that Davit is the one who builts Maruta Vank, and before that there is no notice of Chritian religion either in Mets Mher or in Sanasar and Baghdasar parts. That is because the parts that come before Sasna Davit tell about pre-Christian Armenia. Mets Mher simbolizes Armenia's Romano-Hellenic period and Sanasar-Baghdasar the Persian period. However, it is the Sasuntsi Davit part that simbolizes the present Armenian identity and consciousness. interesting interpretation of the epos... could david's murder be the genocide? and we are now in the poqr mher era? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15levels Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Thanks for the info Error 404, it was very useful. By the way, what is the exact translation of word "Sasun" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) You are welcome 15 levels. The only thing I found (Wikipedia) about Sasun's name's origins is the following. Sasun was a region (Sasun) and family (Sanasuni) in Armenia, centered in Sasun. Its main ruler was Khut Sanasuni c. 590. Their lands happened to Mamikonian c. 772. Mamikonian ruled Sasun until 1058/1059. A ruler called Hovhannes Mamikonian (c. 850) is reported for this region. The traditional epic of David of Sassoun centres on the region. P.S. By the way you guys have an impressive website kinda like 2advanced.com Edited July 13, 2006 by Error 404 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15levels Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Thanks again for the info Error 404 and for the kind words. 15levels.com is my personal portfolio, not a company. I am starting to work on illustrations for Sasna Tzrer, and right now doing the necessary research, so your help is kindly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 interesting interpretation of the epos... could david's murder be the genocide? and we are now in the poqr mher era? I have read somewhere that national epics never represent historic facts. An epic tells about the emotional mood of a nation, its collective imagination and aspirations and, as a result, its fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15levels Posted July 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I have read somewhere that national epics never represent historic facts. An epic tells about the emotional mood of a nation, its collective imagination and aspirations and, as a result, its fate. I just need to give it a face, so for me it would be easier to visualize it, connect it to the something less vague than aspirations or collective imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Armen, epics are in my opinion like movies, some are imagination of creative mind some based on true stories. Even based on a true story they are more or less exaggerated Epic of Gilgamesh used to be just a story about summerian legendary king until recently a german archeological expedition discovered the city of Uruk and the remnants of riverbed Euphrates (according to epic they changed the flow of Euphrates to burry King Gilgamesh there). You have mentioned about Shmabala as an fortress. For some group of people it's a city hidden in tibet for other ones it's existence is in a different dimension and only the chosen ones can enter there for Elena Blavatskaya it was the source of all her works (she was getting her knowledge and energy from them). Even Nazis and Stalin financed expeditions to find the city and it's habitants (The life in Shambala is known to be absolute and the habitants posses magical powers. Maybe they wanted to get some of those magic in their hands...). In my opinion the heroes in Sasna Tsrer are kinda described like prechristian armenian gods (Mheri Dur, twin brothers, getting pregnant from water etc.). Coming to the Sasun. Why Sasna Tser? Why not Abaranci Tsrer or Ardahanci tsrer? I know only one thing. Mush and Sasun were never completly conquered by any enemy (especially by turks) until 1915 when they left it and spread all over the world. Maybe thats why. Who knows. Level15 is a talented artist he probably doesn't need to know if it is based on a true story or just an imagination. Just wait until he comes out with his next "Shedevr" (wonder) then you will be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 I have read somewhere that national epics never represent historic facts. It is not quite so because oral legends and folk epics more often than not partially spring as instruments for immortalizing and recording certain historical occurances that consummate the given nation's ideal. The key salience of epics, however, is not this ability to chronicle- but the fact that they are the subconcious representations of what a people holds as ideal and perfect. It is the observers closest link to the collective metaphysical concept of culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Ruben jan, Great project and please do share it with us when it nears completion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Armen, epics are in my opinion like movies, some are imagination of creative mind some based on true stories. Even based on a true story they are more or less exaggerated. Error, Sasuntsi Davit begins with the following: "Darnam, zoghormin ti tam, Khanoum Tsovinarin. Darnam, zoghormin ti tam, Sanasarin, Baghdasarin. Darnam, zoghormin ti tam, Qeri Torosikin. Darnam, zoghormin ti tam akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin." When you read this part, the first riddle that you will notice is "akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin". Why is the "author" saying a "zoghormi" to the parents of the reader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 It is not quite so because oral legends and folk epics more often than not partially spring as instruments for immortalizing and recording certain historical occurances that consummate the given nation's ideal. The key salience of epics, however, is not this ability to chronicle- but the fact that they are the subconcious representations of what a people holds as ideal and perfect. It is the observers closest link to the collective metaphysical concept of culture. That is true. Thanks, Zartonk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 No problem my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 1000 people 1000 opinions... Armen I don't get the point of your question. Sasunci Davit was rewritten by Hovhanes Tumanyan don't forget that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 ruben i have visited your website lol i love the god graphic design! its amazing and imaginative! but im sorry...i may be a little toto yougnt o understand what is this project iv been hearing about? care to elaborate?...feel free to PM me or just reply on this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 1000 people 1000 opinions... Armen I don't get the point of your question. Sasunci Davit was rewritten by Hovhanes Tumanyan don't forget that. Error 404, http://www.armenianhouse.org/tumanyan/epic...untsidavid.html Here it is. It is not the epic. It is a poem about the Sasuntsi Davit part of the epic. The epic is a result of a scientific research done by generations of Armenian scientists starting from Garegin Srvandztain. It was published in 40s by the National Academy of Armenia and edited by professor Manuk Abeghian and someone else. There can't be 1000 opinions on that particular phraze. If the author (the whole Armenian people) is saying a "zoghormi" to the parents of the reader (or listener, because S.D. was narrated and sung by minstrels) that means the author assumes that the parents of all the listners are dead. Why do you think he does that? Isen't there a question to be asked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Armen, I was reffering with 1000 opinions about the epics not to Sasunci Davit. As you can see each of us has its own opinion about epics although they are matching generally. Each of us just describes it with its own words... About zoghormin ti tam akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin in Sasunci Davit. I still can't get your point I mean I don't know what are you refferenig to. Please go ahead and explain it to us, it is interesting to know. I remember my grandparents (when they were alive) used to use those phrases alot. (astvac) Oghormi Ancavornerid (your loved ones who passed away) Ogormi Hord (your dad who passwd away) Oghormi Tsnoghnerid (your parents who passed away) They used is in my understanding more like a word please. They were using it whenever they had to say please. Sometimes they even were telling oghormi hord to someone whos father was still alive And I like was Grandpa why are you saying that to him his dad is still alive and he was going: well I mean his grandfather:) It's like a please. That's my understanding. But if you have anything else in your mind go ahead and explain it please (oghormi ancavornerid) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Armen, I was reffering with 1000 opinions about the epics not to Sasunci Davit. As you can see each of us has its own opinion about epics although they are matching generally. Each of us just describes it with its own words... There are parts in the epic that can be interpreted differently but I was refering to a specific phraze. I remember my grandparents (when they were alive) used to use those phrases alot. (astvac) Oghormi Ancavornerid (your loved ones who passed away) Ogormi Hord (your dad who passwd away) Oghormi Tsnoghnerid (your parents who passed away) They used is in my understanding more like a word please. They were using it whenever they had to say please. Sometimes they even were telling oghormi hord to someone whos father was still alive And I like was Grandpa why are you saying that to him his dad is still alive and he was going: well I mean his grandfather:) It's like a please. That's my understanding. But if you have anything else in your mind go ahead and explain it please (oghormi ancavornerid) I don't think so. "Oghormi" is only used for dead people. The only case it can be used with people alive is a joke. Clearly, your granpa was joking. "Oghormi" is never used like "please". I think you mix it with "matagh linem qez". About zoghormin ti tam akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin in Sasunci Davit. I still can't get your point I mean I don't know what are you refferenig to. Please go ahead and explain it to us, it is interesting to know. "Zoghormin ti tam akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin" has a message in it. It means that those who listen to Sasuntsi Davit epic must be experienced enough to understand its meaning. Experience they have gathered should come from the stages of life they already passed. They have reach the point in their lives when they forever lost the people who gave them birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 There are parts in the epic that can be interpreted differently but I was refering to a specific phraze. I don't think so. "Oghormi" is only used for dead people. The only case it can be used with people alive is a joke. Clearly, your granpa was joking. "Oghormi" is never used like "please". I think you mix it with "matagh linem qez". "Zoghormin ti tam akanj aroghneri tsnorghnerin" has a message in it. It means that those who listen to Sasuntsi Davit epic must be experienced enough to understand its meaning. Experience they have gathered should come from the stages of life they already passed. They have reach the point in their lives when they forever lost the people who gave them birth. Armen You probably did not carefully read my post about the expression oghormi ancavornerid (my grandfater was forgetting that sometimes person's parents are still alive, thats why he was turning it to joke). I understand your point. It is possible. Epics are for the people who understand life who can read literature. Children who listen or watch to "Grinch" may not understand epics. But that does not neccessary mean that young people who have a life experince and understang may not understand the epics? I am not talking about young Einsteins, I mean in general inteligent youth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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