Who Were Urartians? Are We Decendants Of Urartians?

[MosJan]

no no no no no

 

Let's Hear From You / just like ArmoArmeN is "presenting" his "case"

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ArmoArmeniaN,

 

The information you have provided is very valuable. I know all these historical facts.

 

What is more concerning me is the language. We know that Urartian language originated from Hurrian and they do not belong to Indo-European language family. That means old hurrians and urartians did not talk armenian.

 

My question is who were the real ancestoers of armenians that mixed with urartians (or whatever happened) and established the first armenian kingdom.

 

Were they the Aryans? Or some tribes coming from north? Or were they always living in that region side by side with urartians but somehow always in the shade?

 

I need simple explanation of who were the old armenian speaking people and where did the originate. How can you explain the transitional period from Urartu to Armenia?

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Urartian(Araratian) and Hurian langages originated from the same root.

 

Hur in Armenian means FIRE. The land of Huriians was the land of Sun(Ar-ev) God(also the God of fire).

The name Suria is originated from the same word reffering to the God S-Arya.

 

One cannot make a claim that Hurrians were not Aryans the same way you must not claim Akkadian kingdom was a semitic kingdom. When the semites(Akkadians) moved from south to the north, they have adopted the Aryan way of life, and them ruling the kindom for some period of time doesn't give anyone a right to make false calims about the people of the land being semites.

 

 

I have already stated in my previous post that the name Urartu(UrTu) was used by the Assyrians. The Egyptians using the term Ermenen reffering to the region of Minni.

 

Why have you chosen to use the Assyrian term and not the Egytian one?

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ArmoArmeN,

 

you did not answer my question, instead you are insisting your previous post.

 

I agree with you about the names and origins. But I do not aggree with you about accadians. Maybe they have adopted aryan style of life by absorbing summerians but they still are from semitic origin.

 

Aryans spoke a language from indo-european family.

 

Hurrian is an ergative-agglutinative language that, together with Urartian, constitutes the Hurro-Urartian family (from wikipedia).

 

Maybe I am an ignorant person but I still do not see any connection between hurrians and aryans when their languages are different. How did the transition happen and how did the language change? Who came first? Who has got absorbed?

 

I just need a neutral answer. Belive me, I love my country, but I want to know the truth.

[Aratta-Kingdom]

ArmoArmeN,

I just need a neutral answer. Belive me, I love my country, but I want to know the truth.

 

 

I know you love your country that's why you so eagrly deny everything presented to you. You are even imposing your pre-conditioned thought on others, and nothing I say will ever change your stance on the issue.

[Hellektor]

My two cents worth to whom it may concern.

 

I am not a historian either, but I see where the problem comes from.

I think the whole Zionist/Freemason/Bolshevik faggotery has derouted our brains from thinking clearly. We have to explain everything in terms of race. Let me tell you, I may be wrong but in my view the whole Aryan/Indo-European thing is pure baloney.

 

Aryan means Iranian plain and simple. Europeans are not Aryans. The whole Hitler crap was of the same caliber as the Sun Theory of Cacaturk. The language spoken in Armenia in the so-called Urartu period shares 80% of its vocabulary with Grabar and only 20% of its grammar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar, all percents approximate. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

 

The whole Bolshevik/Jewish scam to dissociate the Armenians from their ancestors and to equate the Armenians with the fake nations of the USSR including the bogus, fictitious "nation" the "Azeris", was to crush ancient nations using the pretext of International "brotherhood". The Georgians and the "Azeris" would smash Armenian churches and tell the party leaders they were getting rid of backward religious garbage, in essence destroying an old nation to justify their existence and "cure" their inferiority complex.

 

I believe the language that has served as the prototype for the so-called Indo-European group of languages has coexisted with the ancient form of our Armenian language. Relations with the so-called Indo-European peoples have influenced our language

 

I suggest you guys give the young historian Artak Movsissian's works a try. The guy is a walking encyclopedia and reads cuneiform like drinking water (if you see what I mean!).

 

And who says Jews know where they come from? Many think today's Jews are the leftovers of Khazars, hence, the affinity with the genocidal Turks. You don't believe the Bible cock and bull story of 5000 years of Jewish history, do you? In fact the Bible shows a great influence (read plagiarism) from Zoroastrianism which dates back 2500 to 3000 years MAX.

 

To cut a long story short: the people and the kings of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were Armenians. They spoke Armenian and the inscriptions of the kings in Hurrian are irrelevant to the language spoken. In the same way, the Yervandunis have left inscriptions in Greek, does this mean the people also spoke Greek?

 

It's funny those who want to deny us our Urartu heritage say the mention of Armenia as Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Akkadian for the same country in Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana is irrelevant because the Kingdom of Urartu did not exist anymore (521 B.C.). But ironically this emphasizes that Armenia and Urartu were one and the same even more, otherwise, why would Darius mention Urartu when it had already "vanished"? You see how they fokk with our brains?

 

Also a research on Hayasa/Hayastan, Armani-Armanum/Armenia is not out of place. It cannot be accidental.

 

Armo has mentioned the kingdom of Aratta which dates back 4800 years at least. More voices consider Aratta and Ararat the same and now the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" is in the trash can of history, people can research more freely.

 

It’s interesting how easily we give up our heritage (the same way some “Armenians” are OK with ceding land to “Azeris”) where the Turks who are nothing but savage, barbaric, nomadic, tent-dwelling, cattle-herder, Ural-Altaic, Mongolo-Tatar, Oghuz-Turkmen bandits claims the civilizations of Sumerians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Greeks, Persians, Aratta, Urartians, Elamites, Hitites, Hurries, Armenians, Medes, Kurds, Aghvank, Ionians, Phrygians, Scythians, Manni, Martians, Saturnans, Jupiterians, Out of Milkywayans, Parallel Universians, Out of this Universians, Pre Big Bangians, Residents of the Black Holes, etc., etc., etc.

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

I paste from another post of mine on another forum in case I've forgotten something:

 

In Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Behistun , Bistoon) near Kermanshah, from more than 2500 years ago he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Accadian. Carved in stone. No possibility of doubt.

 

The only reason they give is because the Urartian kings used a Hurrian language for their inscriptions. It is not entirely true. Different writing systems have been used in that time. I'll talk about it when I find the time.

The Yervanduni kings also used Greek for their inscriptions, does this mean the entire population of Armenia suddenly changed from Hurrians to Greeks? Bollocks. The people spoke Armenian all along. It has nothing to do with kingly inscriptions.

 

I personally think the complacency of some Armenian historians with the mythical Aryan/Indo European thing and their "rejection" of Urartu is because of our, how can I put it, "desire" to be Europeans which I firmly believe we are NOT.

I mean look at a typical Armenian, do we look like Vikings? No way!

Moreover, Aryan means Iranian. the Ir in Iran means Arya. The word Iran can mean Aryans or the land of Aryans. Basta.

 

There can be no question that the Armenian language and nation was formed on the Armenian highlands and nowhere else.

If Armenians migrated from the Balkans then there MUST be some evidence to support this but there is none.

I believe they will never be found in those areas and the whole Indo European/Aryan thing is just a myth.

 

Urartu is Akkadian for Ararat/Armenia. Nairi is Assyrian for Armenia. Older names of Armenia: Armani/Armanum, Subartu, Aratta.

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I know you love your country that's why you so eagrly deny everything presented to you. You are even imposing your pre-conditioned thought on others, and nothing I say will ever change your stance on the issue.

 

ArmoArmeN

 

I think the one who doesn't want talk with facts and the one who imposes his pre-conditioned thoughts on others is you. Instead of talking and explaining you are starting to dispute stuff that does not fit this topic.

 

I studied Philology, I am a linguist (German). You can't take two completly different languages and insist that they are coming from the same root.

 

According to you hurrians are aryans. Then here comes the $ 1 000 000 question: how come they had two different languages?

 

Instead of going rounds please answer it. If you don't know the answer then let me know I won't be mad on you.

[Error 404]

Hellektor,

 

you got some points in your post but some of it doesn't make sense to me, sorry. How come urartians and hurrians left their inscriptions in hurrian langugae but they spoke armenian? Can you explain what you just said?

 

We know who were Yervandunis and we know who were the greeks. We can understand that part.

 

In my understanding there were aryans and hurrians living next to each other and at some point they got mixed and some of aryans went to east to today's iran afganistan then they went north and finally to the west.

 

Again that means there were two different nations with two different languages and one absorbed the other one. How did that happen who absorbed? Who got absorbed? Which nation was living there which one did move in?

 

 

 

I need facts!!!

 

P.S. Jews are semitic they came from north africa. Lookup semitic languages in wikipedia.

 

My two cents worth to whom it may concern.

 

I am not a historian either, but I see where the problem comes from.

I think the whole Zionist/Freemason/Bolshevik faggotery has derouted our brains from thinking clearly. We have to explain everything in terms of race. Let me tell you, I may be wrong but in my view the whole Aryan/Indo-European thing is pure baloney.

 

Aryan means Iranian plain and simple. Europeans are not Aryans. The whole Hitler crap was of the same caliber as the Sun Theory of Cacaturk. The language spoken in Armenia in the so-called Urartu period shares 80% of its vocabulary with Grabar and only 20% of its grammar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar, all percents approximate. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

 

The whole Bolshevik/Jewish scam to dissociate the Armenians from their ancestors and to equate the Armenians with the fake nations of the USSR including the bogus, fictitious "nation" the "Azeris", was to crush ancient nations using the pretext of International "brotherhood". The Georgians and the "Azeris" would smash Armenian churches and tell the party leaders they were getting rid of backward religious garbage, in essence destroying an old nation to justify their existence and "cure" their inferiority complex.

 

I believe the language that has served as the prototype for the so-called Indo-European group of languages has coexisted with the ancient form of our Armenian language. Relations with the so-called Indo-European peoples have influenced our language

 

I suggest you guys give the young historian Artak Movsissian's works a try. The guy is a walking encyclopedia and reads cuneiform like drinking water (if you see what I mean!).

 

And who says Jews know where they come from? Many think today's Jews are the leftovers of Khazars, hence, the affinity with the genocidal Turks. You don't believe the Bible cock and bull story of 5000 years of Jewish history, do you? In fact the Bible shows a great influence (read plagiarism) from Zoroastrianism which dates back 2500 to 3000 years MAX.

 

To cut a long story short: the people and the kings of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were Armenians. They spoke Armenian and the inscriptions of the kings in Hurrian are irrelevant to the language spoken. In the same way, the Yervandunis have left inscriptions in Greek, does this mean the people also spoke Greek?

 

It's funny those who want to deny us our Urartu heritage say the mention of Armenia as Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Akkadian for the same country in Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana is irrelevant because the Kingdom of Urartu did not exist anymore (521 B.C.). But ironically this emphasizes that Armenia and Urartu were one and the same even more, otherwise, why would Darius mention Urartu when it had already "vanished"? You see how they fokk with our brains?

 

Also a research on Hayasa/Hayastan, Armani-Armanum/Armenia is not out of place. It cannot be accidental.

 

Armo has mentioned the kingdom of Aratta which dates back 4800 years at least. More voices consider Aratta and Ararat the same and now the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" is in the trash can of history, people can research more freely.

 

It’s interesting how easily we give up our heritage (the same way some “Armenians” are OK with ceding land to “Azeris”) where the Turks who are nothing but savage, barbaric, nomadic, tent-dwelling, cattle-herder, Ural-Altaic, Mongolo-Tatar, Oghuz-Turkmen bandits claims the civilizations of Sumerians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Greeks, Persians, Aratta, Urartians, Elamites, Hitites, Hurries, Armenians, Medes, Kurds, Aghvank, Ionians, Phrygians, Scythians, Manni, Martians, Saturnans, Jupiterians, Out of Milkywayans, Parallel Universians, Out of this Universians, Pre Big Bangians, Residents of the Black Holes, etc., etc., etc.

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

I paste from another post of mine on another forum in case I've forgotten something:

 

In Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Behistun , Bistoon) near Kermanshah, from more than 2500 years ago he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Accadian. Carved in stone. No possibility of doubt.

 

The only reason they give is because the Urartian kings used a Hurrian language for their inscriptions. It is not entirely true. Different writing systems have been used in that time. I'll talk about it when I find the time.

The Yervanduni kings also used Greek for their inscriptions, does this mean the entire population of Armenia suddenly changed from Hurrians to Greeks? Bollocks. The people spoke Armenian all along. It has nothing to do with kingly inscriptions.

 

I personally think the complacency of some Armenian historians with the mythical Aryan/Indo European thing and their "rejection" of Urartu is because of our, how can I put it, "desire" to be Europeans which I firmly believe we are NOT.

I mean look at a typical Armenian, do we look like Vikings? No way!

Moreover, Aryan means Iranian. the Ir in Iran means Arya. The word Iran can mean Aryans or the land of Aryans. Basta.

 

There can be no question that the Armenian language and nation was formed on the Armenian highlands and nowhere else.

If Armenians migrated from the Balkans then there MUST be some evidence to support this but there is none.

I believe they will never be found in those areas and the whole Indo European/Aryan thing is just a myth.

 

Urartu is Akkadian for Ararat/Armenia. Nairi is Assyrian for Armenia. Older names of Armenia: Armani/Armanum, Subartu, Aratta.

[Hellektor]

I studied Philology, I am a linguist (German). You can't take two completly different languages and insist that they are coming from the same root.

 

According to you hurrians are aryans. Then here comes the $ 1 000 000 question: how come they had two different languages?

Studying philology doesn't entitle someone to categorically state the people who lived in Armenia in the time of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were not Armenians and then by some extraordinary, magical mutation they became Armenians.

 

I have explained this in my post above. Once more: people in Armenia in the period of kingdom of Van spoke Armenian and the language shares 80% of its vocabulary and 20% of its grammar with Grabar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

 

If you have access to the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, then check the relevant topic where concerning the Urartian language it states:

 

“of all the living languages, Armenian is the closest in terms of vocabulary”. It goes on to give examples of words that mean the same and sound similar in both languages.

 

Remember that it was the fascist Bolshevik state that denied the Armenians their heritage. In this light what the encyclopedia writes is quite daring.

 

Unlike a ridiculous Turkish study where “professor” Silahi (dickhead) Diker presents a list of words he claims to be the “Urartian glossary” and for every word he cites a Turkish/Persian/Arabic word that SOUNDS more or less similar (regardless of the meaning) and “concludes” the Urartian language to be originated from Turkish!

 

If I had to reason like this “scholar” I could take this whole text and find an Armenian word that remotely or otherwise sounds like every word in it and claim that English comes from Armenian. Isn’t this absurd?

 

The Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia also says there are theories that argue there is a super-language family that includes this language along with Indo-European, Semitic, Ural-Altaic, Caucasian and Dravidian subgroups.

 

Inaccurate theories are all we have and some are used for political reasons to “prove” that the indigenous Armenians are comers and the nomadic Turkish invaders were civilized people 9000000000000000000000000000000 eons before the Big Bang and that Urartu is in fact UralTurk. Then the “savage” Armenians came and killed the UralTurks, therefore, the Armenian Genocide was the revenge of Urartians... Pure, 24-carat Turkdung!

[Hellektor]

Hellektor,

 

you got some points in your post but some of it doesn't make sense to me, sorry. How come urartians and hurrians left their inscriptions in hurrian langugae but they spoke armenian? Can you explain what you just said?

 

We know who were Yervandunis and we know who were the greeks. We can understand that part.

 

In my understanding there were aryans and hurrians living next to each other and at some point they got mixed and some of aryans went to east to today's iran afganistan then they went north and finally to the west.

 

Again that means there were two different nations with two different languages and one absorbed the other one. How did that happen who absorbed? Who got absorbed? Which nation was living there which one did move in?

I need facts!!!

 

P.S. Jews are semitic they came from north africa. Lookup semitic languages in wikipedia.

It seems you didn't read my post. I'm pretty clear, in fact I don't quite get what you are trying to say. You still argue using the 20th century Zionist/Fascist/Western racial theories where, for political reasons, the "scholars" always cite crap like skull size, forhead length, shape of chin, nose, etc. as hard evidence to "measure" the intelligence of nations.

 

Once more I recommend from my heart to get your hands on the works of Artak Movsissian. He's an excellent young historian who knows a lot about the era and especially Armenia in 3000 B.C.

 

I don't know your age. You say you are a linguist, this means you are at least in your late 20s but you are constantly citing wiki as the word of god and frankly, wiki is the source teenagers always give because the lack of book knowledge. I have to admit, I am not into wikipedophilia, I'm kind of allergic to wiki (sorry QueBeCer), I know there's lot of great info on that website, but there's also the possibility for everyone to post any gabage. Just look at the "Azeri" vomit.

 

I simply don't buy this whole race shit. Therefore, I think our discussion will lead to nowhere.

[shaunt]

My question is who were the real ancestoers of armenians that mixed with urartians (or whatever happened) and established the first armenian kingdom.

 

The Mushki, a Phrygian tribe.

[Error 404]

Thanks shaunt,

 

that's what i am expecting from a intelectual person.

 

In my opinion this is a question which needs a scientific approach. I am not a historian but I red alot. I am just trying to find answers to the questions in me. I need facts to be convinced otherwise it's going to sound a conspiracy to me.

 

Hellector I heard about Artak. I promise I will try to find his works and read. I usually research every topic from different points of view I mean I usually read what different sources say about the same issue. Recently I read Alexandr Varpetyan's "Ovqer en i Verjoy Ariaciner@" that's where this question came in me.

 

Do you think that just by reading Xorenaci's "Hayoc Patmutyun" is enough to know our history? I prefer to read other sources too to make my neutral opinion about the issue. Although I am very carefull to choose the source I mean I am not going to take some turkish bull shit as a source.

 

Hellector I am in my early 30's I do not lean on wiki I have red alot of books like you have said. I just reffered to wiki because some of the forum readers may not be able to find books that me and you used.

 

And I am not trying to start a conflict. I just need clear answers or your opinions (like shaunt or Eurocentric). I prefer any opinion with facts that would convince me:) And when I do not agree with your opinion please don't be mad. Different people different opinions...

 

 

cheers

[Eurocentric]

Common sense and objectivity = 1

Delusional fabrications and cultural appropriation = 0

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Common sense and objectivity = 1

Delusional fabrications and cultural appropriation = 0

 

 

What happened to Ataturk's sun teory?

[Arpa]

Erebuni In Ruins?

Maybe. As long as we insist using words like “patmasiroutyun/պատմասիրություն” instead of “patmasiroum”, forget that unnecessarily encumbering “utyun”. I would much rather use “hnagitoum/hnasiroum/archeophilia”.

Although the inferences below allude to our Christian heritage, it also invokes ancient Egyptian heritage. How less intelligent are we than the modern Islamic Egyptians who pride themselves with all that pre-Islamic culture, and make zillions of dollars in the process?

 

We read in AZG-

ԱՎԵՐԱԿ ԴԱՐՁԱԾ ՄԵՐ ԷՐԵԲՈՒՆԻ

Հաշվի առնելով, թե Հայաստանում որքան շատ են արեւի, քամու եւ ժամանակի փոշու տակ անխնամ թափված կիսափուլ հուշարձանները, հայ հնաբաններից ու պատմաբաններից ոմանք կարծում են, որ մեր հայրենիքը ոչ թե թանգարան, այլ թանգարանի ավերակ է բաց երկնքի տակ: Սակայն Առինջ թաղամասը կարելի է հաճելի բացառություն համարել: Հնագույն ժամանակներից հայտնի այս թաղամասում, ըստ ՀՀ պաշտոնական տեղեկագրի (թիվ 8/307, 2004, փետրվար), 304 միավոր հուշարձան կա: Դրանց թվում են Ձագավանքի վանական համալիրը (7-17-րդ դդ.), Գետարգելի Սբ. Նշան մայր եկեղեցին, որ կաթողիկոսանիստ է եղել Զաքարիա Ա Ձագեցի կաթողիկոսի հայրապետության (855-876 թթ.) քսանմեկ տարիների ընթացքում, հին գերեզմանոցներ հարյուրավոր հնամենի խաչքարերով ու տապանաքարերով, գյուղատեղի, մատուռներ ու եկեղեցիներ, ինչպես նաեւ ուրարտական շրջանի մի ամրոց: Հատկապես առինջեցի հայտնի գործարար Գագիկ Ծառուկյանը նախանձախնդիր է, որ Առինջի պատմական ավերակները վերականգնվեն եւ, թեկուզ շատերիս համար վիճելի, բայց կանգուն տեսքի բերվեն: Սակայն միայն Գ. Ծառուկյանի նախաձեռնությունը բավարա՞ր է 304 պատմական արժեքների վերականգնման համար, չէ՞ որ խոսքը ոչ թե մեկ կամ մի քանի եկեղեցիների վերականգնման, այլ Ձագավանքի համալիրի, պատմական գերեզմանոցի եւ բազմաթիվ սրբատեղիների մասին է: Ինչեւէ, առայժմ մի ձեռքն է փորձում ձեռք լվանալ:

Գործարարի ուշադրության կենտրոնում է Առինջի ամրոցը, որի մասին ՀՀ մշակույթի եւ երիտասարդության հարցերի նախարարության պատմության եւ մշակույթի հուշարձանների պահպանության գործակալության Կոտայքի եւ Գեղարքունիքի տարածաշրջանի բաժնի պետ Ստեփան Ղազարյանը նշում է. «Հայաստանում եղած հնադարյան ամրոցներից միակն է, որի հիմքերն ու պատերը ընդգծված կերպով պահպանված են: Քառասունյոթ մետր երկարություն եւ քառասուներեք մետր լայնություն ունեցող ամրոցում գտնվել են չորրորդ դարի եկեղեցու հիմքեր, որոնց վրա վերջերս մի նոր փոքրիկ եկեղեցի է կառուցվել»:

Խոսելով Առինջի պատմաճարտարապետական հուշարձանների մասին հարկ է նշել, որ դրանց շարքում են նաեւ երկու կոթողներ, որոնք թվագրվում են 5-6-րդ դդ., նույնիսկ մի քարայր-կացարան, որ թվագրվում է Ք.ա. 2-1 հազ. եւ գտնվում է գյուղից 2,5 կմ հեռավորության վրա, բրոնզեդարյան քարե ամրոցի մոտ: Պատմությունը փաստում է, որ 1679 թվականի ավերիչ երկրաշարժը փլել է Ձագավանքի մայր եկեղեցին ու Գետարգելի զանգակատունը: Վերջինս վերականգնել է առինջեցի ԱԺ պատգամավոր Մուրադ Գուլոյանը: Ըստ Ստեփան Ղազարյանի, Առինջում ակտիվ պեղումնաբանական աշխատանքներ են ընթանում, որի երաշխավորն են Առինջ գյուղի քաջ հայտնի գործարարները` իրենց գովելի նախանձախնդրությամբ: Չենք պնդում, թե նրանց գործունեությունը «անձնվեր գաղափարախոսության եւ բեղուն մտքի ճիչ է», սակայն իրապես օրինակելի եւ խիստ արժեքավոր ներդրում է Հայաստանի մշակութային ոլորտում (թեկուզ բազմաթիվ սննդի եւ մարմնավոր հաճույքների համար նախատեսված օբյեկտների կողքին): Այնուամենայնիվ, Ստ. Ղազարյանը նշում է, թե որպեսզի Առինջի բոլոր մշակութային կոթողները վերականգնվեն ու փրկվեն մոռացությունից, հարկավոր են շատ ավելի մեծ գումարներ ու երկար տարիների անհնարին թվացող աշխատանք:

Մեկ այլ խնդիր է, որ հուշարձաններով հարուստ այս տեղանքի մասին շատ կցկտուր փաստաթղթային հիմքեր ու հավատ չներշնչող բազմաթիվ խոսակցություններ կան: Օրինակ, հետազոտողները Գետարգելի զանգակատան նախնական տեսքի վերահաստատման համար օգտվել են ընդամենը գտնված բեկորներից, քանի որ այլ աղբյուրներ ու փաստեր պարզապես չեն եղել:

Խոսելով հայերի պատմասիրության եւ նախնյաց ժառանգությունը սրբորեն հարգելու կարողության մասին, Ստ. Ղազարյանն ասում է. «Երբ Եգիպտոսում էի, տեսա, թե ինչպես կարող է հասարակությունը պաշտել սեփական ճարտարապետությունը, որի խորհրդանշական ու խոսուն վկաները հենց բուրգերն են: Տեսածս համեմատեցի ավելի վաղ Հայաստանում տեսածիս ու զգացածիս հետ, թե ինչպես Նորքում գտնվող տների ու պարիսպների պատերի մեջ հայտնաբերեցինք մեր հայրենակիցների 1800-ականների եւ ավելի վաղ շրջանի թվագրված տապանաքարերը... Հաճախ ենք աղաղակում, թե ինչպես են թուրքերը մեր պատմական հայրենիքում քանդում ու խոշտանգում մեր պատմաճարտարապետական սրբությունները: Իսկ ի՞նչ ենք անում մենք հենց թեկուզ Երեւանում»:

Մեր զրուցակցին խիստ մտահոգում է նաեւ այն, որ մեր հասարակությունը չի կարողանում գնահատել իր ճարտարապետական հարուստ ժառանգությունն ըստ արժանվույն: «Հաճախ ենք հանդիպում քեֆչիների, որ խորովածը սիրում են որեւէ ճարտարապետական հուշարձանի, նույնիսկ եկեղեցու հարեւանությամբ անել, սակայն գլուխները չեն բարձրացնում հիանալու եւ անգամ չեն էլ գիտակցում, թե ինչ հոգեւոր եւ մշակութային արժեքի հարեւանությամբ են հաց կիսում: Պետք է հիշենք, որ եկեղեցին իր պատմամշակութային արժեքով եւս սրբություն է: Այդ սրբության հարգն իմանանք»:

ՍՈՒՍԱՆՆԱ ՄԱՐԳԱՐՅԱՆ

The above highlight:

“When in Egypt I saw how the public respects its cultural heritage(Not totally true, we have heard of Egyptian grave robbers.) Yet here in Nork many houses are built with stones from ancient monuments, gravestones and even khachkars…. We often see those ‘kefchis’ who choose to prop their khorovats sets next to historical sites without even the slightest respect to their sanctity”

 

Is it archeology or archisacrilege, hnasirum or hnapghdzum, ՀՆԱՍԻՐՈՒՄ ԹԷ ՀՆԱՊՂԾՈՒՄ?

[shaunt]

Error 404, Diakonoff's book, "The pre-history of Armenians," is by far the best work on this topic. It is EXTREMELY informative. In the book he mentions 5 groups which constitute the proto-Armenians; the Phyrgians, Thracians, Luwians, Urartians, and Hurrians.

 

Greppin's works are also worth looking into. In one he explains how the proto-Armenians must have had an extended stay in Mesopotamia on the basis of borrowed vocabulary from Semitic languages.

[Eurocentric]

Error 404, Diakonoff's book, "The pre-history of Armenians," is by far the best work on this topic. It is EXTREMELY informative. In the book he mentions 5 groups which constitute the proto-Armenians; the Phyrgians, Thracians, Luwians, Urartians, and Hurrians.

 

Greppin's works are also worth looking into. In one he explains how the proto-Armenians must have had an extended stay in Mesopotamia on the basis of borrowed vocabulary from Semitic languages.

 

Very good Shaunt. There are words in Semitic languages which can only be explained by early contact with IE languages, Luwian is a primary candidate.

 

Error404 I also reccomend reading this very informative article by Thomas J. Samuelian: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ZUjeM...t=clnk&cd=1

[Error 404]

Thanks alot guys!!!!

[Sarduri]

if u guys want to know the truth, yes, we are 100 percent urartus, i can prove it......

[Sarduri]

if ur armenian, then youll know armenians call their country hayastan after the urartu god haldi. but in those days "l" stood for "y", so hayde, hay deity,haydi=hayastan.

[LionHeart]

Error 404, you have valid questions about the linguistic difference between Urartuan and Armenian. It's sometimes good to think outside of the box. What makes you think that Urartuans spoke Urartuan? We don't have audio files from the period, after all.

[Sarduri]

lionheart, its just politics, who say racist stuff.

[Yervant1]

ARMENIA THE HEIR OF URARTU

[ Part 2.2: "Attached Text" ]

Filed under: Archaeology, Art, Culture, Geography, History, Literature,
Science, Tradition -- Leave a comment December 12, 2013 Relief
depicting offering bearers, from Urartu, Armenia

Relief depicting offering bearers, from Urartu, Armenia

ART OF URARTU

Urartu was an Iron Age Armenian kingdom famed for one of the finest
examples of ancient art. Urartu at its zenith had a profound
cultural influence on its neighbors reaching as far as Asia and
Europe. Supported by discoveries of Urartian artifacts inside Etruscan
burials, it has been hypothesized that much of Etruscan culture
has its origins in Urartu. [1] [2] Observations by Boris Piotrovsky
suggest that decoration and production techniques of Scythian belts
and scabbards were borrowed from Urartu. [3] The Urartian way of
decorating cauldrons spread over the ancient world, and it is believed
that Armenian art is based on the Urartian traditions. [4] [5]

URARTU AND ARMENIA

Armenian tribute bearer from Persepolis

Armenian tribute bearer from Persepolis (5th c. BCE)

That historic Armenian kingdom was in fact a continuation of the
kingdom of Urartu also known as "Kingdom of Van" is apparent from
ancient records. In the trilingual Behistun inscription, carved
in 521 BC by the order of Darius the Great of Persia, the country
referred to as Urartu in Assyrian is called Arminiya in Old Persian
and Harminuia in Elamite. Armenia, Urartu, (Biblical) Ararat and
Herminuia are therefore synonyms. Ancient people of the region did
not distinguish Armenia from Urartu. Some modern scholars however
proposed that Urartu fell to a Median invasion and was later replaced
by Armenians. The evidence, however, for the so called "fall of Urartu"
is absent. There are no records of invading Armenians.

Urartu in fact maintained its independence and power, going through a
mere dynastic change, as a local Armenian dynasty (later to be called
the Orontids) came to power. Ancient sources support this explanation:
Xenophon, for example, states that Armenia, ruled by an Orontid king,
was not conquered until the reign of Median king Astyages (585-
550 BC) - long after Median invasion of the late 7th century BC. [6]

Similarly, Strabo (1st century BC - 1st century AD) wrote that:

"In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it
broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages,
it was deprived of that great authority ..." [7]

Medieval Armenian chronicles corroborate the Greek sources. In
particular, Movses Khorenatsi (5th c. AD) writes that Armenian prince
Paruyr Skayordi helped the Median king Cyaxares and his allies conquer
Assyria, for which Cyaxares recognized him as the king of Armenia,
while Media conquered Armenia only much later--under Astyages. [8]

The name "Urartu" was simply stopped being used when the Persians
stopped making trilingual and bilingual inscriptions and dropped
Assyro-Babylonian altogether.

Different peoples throughout different times used to refer to Armenia
by different names. The Sumerians in around 2,800 BCE called Armenia
- Aratta, while the Akkadians that succeeded them in the second half
of Third Millennium BCE called Armenia - Armani or Armanum.

The Hittites who rose in the Second Millennium BCE called Armenia -
Hayasa, while the Assyrians who arose in the second half of Second
Millennium BCE called Armenia - Uruatri or Urartu (Ararat of the
Bible). With their disappearance from the historical arena, the
different names that they used to refer to Armenia and the Armenian
people disappeared with them. However, Armenia and the Armenian people,
always found the strength for renewal throughout the long millennia
of their epic history and continued to fight on for both preservation
and progress. [9]

Figure decorating a throne, found at the site of Toprak Kale, near Van
(bronze and stone)

Figure decorating a throne, found at the site of Toprak Kale, near Van
(bronze and stone)

GENETICS OF URARTU

Armenian Urartu culture

Evolution of Armenian culture

Genetic evidence too shows that Armenians are native to the lands
inhabited by Urartians. After elaborate research prof Dr. Richard
Villems and colleagues of the University of Tartu (Faculty of biology
and geography Institute of molecular and cell biology) have concluded
in 2004:

"In our study the ancestry of the Armenians was traced back
to different parts of Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey,
illustrating the fact that historic Armenia was a much larger territory
than that of the present Republic of Armenia".

Litvinov S. and colleagues have also noted in a paper from 2008:

"Armenians are a separate ethnic group, which originated from Neolithic
tribes of the Armenian Uplands" [10]

A similar statement was made by M.M. Banoie et. al. in 2008:

"The Armenians are a nation and an ethnic group originating from the
Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, where a large concentration of this
community has remained, especially in Armenia." [11]

THE LANGUAGE OF URARTU

However the most frequently cited argument against the Urartu-Armenian
connection is linguistics. Some argue that people of Urartu did not
speak an Armenian language, rather they supposed Urartians spoke a
language related to Northeast-Caucasian languages.

This hypothesis was first proposed by Igor M. Diakonoff who was
instructed on the matter by Sergei Anatolyevich Starostin.

Starostin's theories have met considerable skepticism and his Altaic
theory is controversial to say the least. Starostin has embarked
on a journey to connect as many ancient languages as he can to
North-Caucasian. Including Yeniseian, Altaic, Tibetan, Japanese and
Austric. Urartian and its older relative Hurrian he also wrongly
connected to North-Caucasian. This theory however is not generally
accepted in the academic circles. Moreover both Diakonoff and Starostin
were not versed in Armenian making their judgment on Hurro-Urartian
a difficult task. As the Cambridge University encyclopedia of ancient
languages describes:

"A genetic relation between (reconstructed) Proto-Urarto-Hurrian and
(reconstructed) Northeast Caucasian has been argued for, but it is
not generally accepted. If the connection could be demonstrated,
it would be a rather distant one." [12]

hurro-urartian not north caucasian3

The Urartian scribes seemed to have been utilizing various alphabets,
including native hieroglyphs. The most comprehensive studies have
shown affinity to the Armenian language.

According to the German Orientalist A. D. Mordtmann, Urartian language
was specifically Armenian, and it was only necessary to turn to
an Armenian dictionary to discover the meaning of every word in the
inscriptions. Dr. Mordtmann deciphered Urartian cuneiform inscriptions
which in his words were written in one of early Armenian dialects. He
also deciphered some Mesopotamian inscriptions using Armenian. [13]

The Armenian scholar S. Ayvazyan has also demonstrated in his extensive
work (Urartian-Armenian lexicon and comparative - historical grammar",
2011) that Armenian and Urartian languages are very much related. He
summarizes by saying:

o Of the 230-250 Urartian words identified to date, 156 have their
parallels in Armenian, thus comprising 62-68 percent of the established
Urartian lexicon.

o Of the 156 parallel words, 95, almost 61 percent, are native and,
therefore, cannot have been borrowed from Urartian (if, indeed,
such a separate language ever existed).

o A large percentage of the parallel words are such that rarely
infiltrate from one language to another (for instance, pronouns,
basic (ad)verbs, subsidiary words, etc.)

...

o In the group of 65-68 words in the available Urartian lexicon
with the most secure identification, (the words whose meanings
are defined by the bilingual inscriptions and/or corresponding
logograms), in general, 47 words, around 66-69 percent, have Armenian
parallels. Moreover, 31 of these words are native; seven, borrowed
and only nine words are of unknown origin.

o There are also numerous Armenian roots in various proper names
attested in Urartian.

The examination of these points unequivocally brings us to the
following conclusion: ...The above mentioned facts prove that the
larger part of the lexicon - the most frequently occurring, which forms
the basis of the Urartian inscriptions - has its parallels in Armenian.

Bearing in mind that the Armenian-Urartian parallel word(root)s are
(1) ubiquitous, (2) present in all groups of the identified lexicon,
and (3) mostly native Armenian words, we can without doubt claim that
the language preserved in the Urartian texts (which in scholarly
literature is known as Urartian) is cognate to Armenian or is the
early stage of it." [14]

And thus, from linguistic, genetic, geographic, historic and cultural
perspectives we can safely say that Armenia alone is the true heir
of Urartu. With its art and sophistication admired by cultures of
the past and present. Armenian national art still bears the cultural
torch lid by the ancestors inhabiting of the Armenian Highlands.

Sources:

1) Maxwell, M., Hyslop KR Urartian Bronzes in Etruscan Tombs,
Iraq, XVIII, 2, 1956 2) Pallottino, M. (1958). "Urartu, Greece and
Etruria". East and West (Rome) 9 (1-2) 3) Ð~_иоÑ~BÑ~@овÑ~Aкий
Ð'. Ð'. Ð~XÑ~AкÑ~CÑ~AÑ~AÑ~Bво УÑ~@аÑ~@Ñ~BÑ~C VIII--VI
вв. до н. Ñ~M. ("The Art of Urartu, 8th-6th century
BC"). (Hermitage, Leningrad, 1962 4) Ð~_иоÑ~BÑ~@овÑ~Aкий
Ð'. Ð'. Ð'анÑ~Aкое Ñ~FаÑ~@Ñ~AÑ~Bво (УÑ~@аÑ~@Ñ~BÑ~C) (kingdom
of Van (Urartu)), Eastern Literature Publishing House, Moscow, 1959 5)
Ð~PÑ~@акеÐ"Ñ~Oн Ð'.Ð~]. Ð~ZÐ"ад Ñ~AеÑ~@ебÑ~@Ñ~OнÑ~KÑ...

издеÐ"ий из ЭÑ~@ебÑ~Cни (Silver treasures
excavated at Erebuni) Soviet Archaeology, 1971, Vol. 1 6)
Xenophon.Cyropedia. 3.7. Translated by Henry Graham Dakyns.

7) Strabo Geographica 11.13.5 8) Movses Khorenatsi. History of
Armenia, 5th Century (Õ~@Õ¡ÕµÕ¸O~A Õ~JÕ¡Õ¿Õ´Õ¸O~BÕ©ÕµÕ¸O~BÕ¶,
Ôµ Ô´Õ¡O~@). Annotated translation and commentary by Stepan
Malkhasyants. Gagik Sarkisyan (ed.) Yerevan: Hayastan Publishing,
1997, 1.21, pp. 100-101. ISBN 5-540-01192-9.

9) Gevork Nazarian (http://www.armenianhighland.com/) 10) Litvinov S,
Kutuev I, Yunusbayev B, Khusainova R, Valiev R, Khusnutdinova E (2008)
Alu insertion Polymorphisms in populations of the South Caucasus.

11) Banoei MM, Chaleshtori MH, Sanati MH, Shariati P, Houshmand M,
Majidizadeh T, Soltani NJ, Golalipour M. (2008), Variation of DAT1
VNTR alleles and genotypes among old ethnic groups in Mesopotamia to
the Oxus region.

12) Gernot Wilhelm (2008), The Ancient Languages of Asia Minor,
Cambridge Books Online, Cambridge University Press 2009 13) Mordtmann
A.D. About the cuneiform inscriptions of Armenia , Journal of the
German Oriental Society, Leipzig, XXXI, 1877 14) Sargis Ayvazyan
(2011), Urartian-Armenian lexicon and Comparative-Historical Grammer.

Images from the Armenian kingdom of Urartu:

Relief depicting a winged god stepping on a lion from the kingdom of
Urartu, Armenia, Hittite civilization

Relief depicting a winged god stepping on a lion from the kingdom of
Urartu, Armenia, Hittite civilization

Urartu civilization. Stele of Rusa II, King of Urartu between around
680 BC and 639 BC. Cuneiform inscription commemorating the building
of a canal to channel water to the city of Quarlini from the Ildaruni
(Hrazdan River).

Urartu civilization. Stele of Rusa II, King of Urartu between around
680 BC and 639 BC. Cuneiform inscription commemorating the building
of a canal to channel water to the city of Quarlini from the Ildaruni
(Hrazdan River).

Bull Head Attachment, c.700-600 BC (bronze)

The kingdom of Urartu was contemporary with the Assyrian
civilization. The Urartians produced elaborate bronze objects
and probably passed on many of their metalwork traditions to the
Achaemenian Persians. This bull head was probably one of four placed
at cardinal points around the rim of a huge Urartian bronze cauldron.

Bracelet (silver and gold) from the kingdom of Urartu (7th century BC),
Armenian Highland

Bracelet (silver and gold) from the kingdom of Urartu (7th century BC),
Armenian Highland

Urartu civilization. Bronze Sphinx. From Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th
century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Bronze Sphinx. From Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th
century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Urartu civilization. Statue. male figure. From Tushpa. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Statue. male figure. From Tushpa. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Remains probably of a decorated armor. From
Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum.

Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Remains probably of a decorated armor. From
Tushpa 7th century B.C. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Pectoral and gold medallion decorated with
reliefs. The pectoral depicts the image of god Haldi on the throne
and his wife Arubani. The madaillon, a seated goddess. From Tushpa
or Toprakkale. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Pectoral and gold medallion decorated with
reliefs. The pectoral depicts the image of god Haldi on the throne
and his wife Arubani. The madaillon, a seated goddess. From Tushpa
7th century B.C.

http://peopleofar.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/armenia-the-heir-of-urartu/

[Arpa]

 

Can we stop lying?

No one believes us, not even we.

I have one question.

How come, with all that so called civilization, the Uratuans and by association the Armenians did not have a writing system and a written language in the modern sense, .Until the year 405 AD , a mere 1000 years after the said high civilization. Until Mashtots said, enough (lies) is enough and decided to imitate and copy the Greek and Latin, Alphabets, not the Urartuan.

Here is how the Urartuns and Armenians wrote before Mashtots.

http://vaipui.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/stickman_waving_by_brydon9803.gif

And now, after 1500 years after, our friends in Yerevan want to trash all what Mashtots created. How many times must we trash and destroy our past history, and instead create imagined “histories”? Hi Grigor, grish grishovich pahlavian the (dis) illuminator!

Boris Piotrovky writes about Urartu? What does Boghos Petrosian say?

And while we are singing lullaby, ՔՈՒՆ ԵՂԻՐ ԲԱԼԱՍ sleeping and dreaming see Urartu-Urarturk.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7851&hl=urarturk

Urartuan script was the Cuneiform** which was not even invented by them. It was invented by the Sumerians.

Also note below that the Sumerians devised the system in the 4th millenium BC , a mere 4000 years before the Mesropian Alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform

Cuneiform script[nb 1] is one of the earliest known systems of writing,[2] distinguished by its "wedge-shaped" marks on clay tablets, made by means of a blunt reed for a stylus. The name cuneiform itself simply means "wedge shaped", from the Latin cuneus "wedge" and forma "shape," and came into English usage "probably from Old French cunéiforme."[3]

Emerging in Sumer in the late 4th millennium BC (the Uruk IV period), cuneiform writing began as a system of pictographs. In the third millennium, the pictorial representations became simplified and more abstract as the number of characters in use grew smaller, from about 1,000 in the Early Bronze Age to about 400 in Late Bronze Age (Hittite cuneiform). The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic and Old Persian alphabets. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire, and by the 2nd century AD, the script had become extinct, all knowledge of how to read it was forgotten until it began to be deciphered in the 19th century

**In the Armenian Cuneiform is known as Սեպագիր- Sepagir. Even if some may loosely translate it to mean nail Sep in fact means wedge..

ՍԵՊԱԳԻՐ

http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%8D%D5%A5%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%A3%D5%AB%D6%80

 

[onjig]

Armenia and Urartu are synonymous. In the trilingual Behistun inscription of Darius the Great (c.520 BC), the Babylonian toponym “Urashtu” appears in Old Persian as “Armina,” and in Elamite as “Harminuia,”corresponding to modern “Armenia.” [1] [2] In Hebrew (as recorded in the Bible) this land was called Ararat. The toponym “Urartu” emerged as a regional description rather than ethnic. Historian Boris Piotrovsky argued that “the Assyrian name of Uruatri [which gave birth to the Urartu toponym] had no ethnic significance but was most probably a descriptive term (perhaps meaning “the mountainous country”).”[3] In the Babylonian chancelleries the name of Urartu (under its Babylonian form, Urashtu) continued to be used, while simultaneously in old Persian it was called Armenia. [4] As Assyrian language gradually disappeared from historic records (after decline of Assyria and rise of Media) so did the toponym Urartu ceased to be used. [5] Instead only the name Armenia survived henceforward in the annals of history.

http://peopleofar.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/an-armenian-tribute-bearer-carrying-a-metal-vessel-with-griffin-handles-fifth-century-bc.jpg?w=216&h=217

An Armenian tribute bearer carrying a metal vessel with griffin handles. Fifth century BC

As Herodotus tells us, a decisive part was played by the arrival of a large Scythian army led by Madyes, son of Protothyes (the Partatua of the Assyrian sources). The last Assyrian king, Ashur-uballit, was compelled to withdraw to Harran, where he managed to hold out until 610 B.C.; then in the year 605, after the fall of Carchemish, the Assyrian kingdom ceased to exist. [6] And thus “Urartu” has not been recorded as such in Assyrian sources anymore. The name of Urartu is mentioned for the last time in a document of the time of Darius II (c. 415 B.C.).[6] By then the Armenian Orontid dynasty has already been well established since c.a. 553 BC. Thus Urartu in these records again, undeniably, refers to Armenia. The disappearance of “Urartu” from records merely signifies the disappearance of its exonym, not the country, as various nations continued to call Armenia with different names only dropping certain toponyms when the usage of these languages shifted or disappeared. Thus during Persian dominance Urartu lived on as a satrapy, and later as an independent kingdom simply known as Armenia. [7]

There can be no doubt about the way Urartu, Urashtu, Ararat, Armenia and Harminuia, have been used in the antiquity; simply as synonyms. Hence, there are no records of any invading Armenians into Urartu, there are no records of any power struggles or outside invasion of (the sometimes) supposed ‘Armen’ tribes, simply because these events never occurred. No such records from Assyrian, Babylonian or even Urartian sources. Such a powerful geopolitical shift would have certainly been noticed and recorded. Instead, Armenia and Urartu have been used as synonyms side by side as the aforementioned records clearly demonstrate that toponyms Urartu and Armenia are synonyms for the same country.