tigranisbasileus Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 I think the possibility of full citizenship should be given to all Armenians. Not this special status bs. if you want people building the homeland this is the way. An exemption should b given to those concerning the military service. Follow the Jewish model! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 I know you're going to get yourself in trouble with this post, nevertheless.... I believe that citizenship is already open to all Armenians in diaspora. If I recall correctly, you can even make your citizenship application on-line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 I know you're going to get yourself in trouble with this post, nevertheless.... I believe that citizenship is already open to all Armenians in diaspora. If I recall correctly, you can even make your citizenship application on-line. and aparently theyr gonna make dual citizenship so far people that moved there and are still citizens of say the USA...theyr not exactly citizens, its more like a prolonged visa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Vast majority of Armenians do not think like a nation but as a Diaspora ala gypsies unlike other communities with large Diasporas such as the Greeks, Irish (80 million outside of Ireland !!!!!!!!!!!) or Italians who do have a national mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 I think the possibility of full citizenship should be given to all Armenians. Not this special status bs. if you want people building the homeland this is the way. An exemption should b given to those concerning the military service. Follow the Jewish model! Actually the Jewish model does not include waiver of military service requirement, and IMO it should not be waived anyway for anyone who wishes to become a citizen. You want to get full citizenship because you want to have the same rights as those who have citizenship now. But people must realize that with rights also come responsibilities. That includes residency status, which is what the Jewish model is all about. A Jew can get Israeli citizenship by immigrating rather than applying at an Israeli embassy... Anyway I doubt the Jewish model could apply to Armenia/Armenians, Armenians don't have that kind of dedication and commitment... Or maybe they don't because they cannot get dual citizenship. Who knows, it could be that not so many Jews would've moved to Isael had they not been allowed to keep their American passport for example. Yeah, the current policy by the Armenian government is nothing short of hitting oneself in the foot. Well I know that I would move there if they do the dual citizenship thing. I mean, who wants to give up on the precious Lebanese passport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 empty emotional talks... overlooking all the real issues concerning dual citizenship... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) I am all confused. Of course, by now you know that it takes very little to confuse me. Will someone please tell us what this whole debate is about! Who is asking for dual citizenship? The diasporans or the natives? What is the purpose? Is it that the natives may have dual citizenship as a convenience, like when it gets too hot in Yerevan they can go to Moscow or Alaska to cool off, or claim citizenship of another country, say, like Turkey to dodge the draft? Or is it a birdbrain idea of the diasporans to have the privilege of paying taxes in Yerevan, being drafted into the army and being sent to the Turkish-Azeri border? And, last but not least, to participate in elections to elect their candidate of choice, like GWB, or Alfred E. Newman, … http://www.notmilk.com/forum/790.html …. as the case may be, for president? Am I confused or what?? I was in Yerevan a short time ago, nobody asked what nationality or citizenship I had, and I enjoyed all the (human)rights.... short of being drafted into the army. I met Hranush Hakobian, I won't tell how, and I told her that hopefully some day we may address her as Madam President, her answer was ; “I wish you and the likes of you could vote in Yerevan”!! And speaking of the Jewish Model, we shoud wait a few more years and speak up when and if there still is a Jewish State. Edited July 6, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Arpa as they say, live and let live! By allowing for dual citizenship no one is forcing you to join the army or fight on the Azerbaijani border! If you like the way it is now, you don't have to acquire citizenship! Nobody will hold a gun to your head and make you do it. That's the beauty of it all. Why prevent others from obtaining it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Vast majority of Armenians do not think like a nation but as a Diaspora ala gypsies unlike other communities with large Diasporas such as the Greeks, Irish (80 million outside of Ireland !!!!!!!!!!!) or Italians who do have a national mentality. yay ireland!...im proud of both my sides after the famine, the whole world pitched in and now ireland has the strongest economy in europe! imagine if that happens to armenia! we can rebuild it...but we have to get people on our side! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 What’s the point of dual citizenship? There are many solid arguments against it but there hasn’t been a single good point for it. If there is no ban on dual citizenship, what can forbid Turks, Iranians or other ethnic groups in the Middle East or anywhere else from applying to get a dual citizenship, while living in Ankara, Teheran or any other far fetched part of the world? Denying them dual citizenship is just discrimination. There is a simplified process to get a citizenship of Armenia for ethnic Armenians, but like many others they have to be loyal only to Armenia, so in case things get hard they don’t pack up their bags and leave the country. Some very patriotic Diaspora Armenians moved to Armenia, got a citizenship of Republic of Armenia, and denounced their US, Canadian or French citizenship. If the likes of Raffi Hovhannisyan or Vardan Oskanyan could do it than anybody else could do it. If a person wants to do business in Armenia or just live there, without relinquishing their existing citizenship they can apply for a 10 year temporary status, which is equivalent to US Green Card. It costs only $300, so it’s not a huge amount of money. I have not come across any valid argument for dual citizenship. If someone can show me the benefits of allowing dual citizenship for Republic of Armenia citizens I’d welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irlandahay Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 What’s the point of dual citizenship? There are many solid arguments against it but there hasn’t been a single good point for it. If there is no ban on dual citizenship, what can forbid Turks, Iranians or other ethnic groups in the Middle East or anywhere else from applying to get a dual citizenship, while living in Ankara, Teheran or any other far fetched part of the world? Denying them dual citizenship is just discrimination. There is a simplified process to get a citizenship of Armenia for ethnic Armenians, but like many others they have to be loyal only to Armenia, so in case things get hard they don’t pack up their bags and leave the country. Some very patriotic Diaspora Armenians moved to Armenia, got a citizenship of Republic of Armenia, and denounced their US, Canadian or French citizenship. If the likes of Raffi Hovhannisyan or Vardan Oskanyan could do it than anybody else could do it. If a person wants to do business in Armenia or just live there, without relinquishing their existing citizenship they can apply for a 10 year temporary status, which is equivalent to US Green Card. It costs only $300, so it’s not a huge amount of money. I have not come across any valid argument for dual citizenship. If someone can show me the benefits of allowing dual citizenship for Republic of Armenia citizens I’d welcome. i dunno...dual citisenship is quite a hard thing to understand... waht i think (and this is just my opinion) dual citizenship is a good thing, say i live in canada and love armenia, i can have a home there if i want...i can live in both canada or armenia...its not a cowards way out, its just you love both countreys equally...id live in armenia but i dont want to leave canada...and screw discrimination! nowadays descrimination is used for everything! no one wants turks in the eu so they call the europeens racist, but the fact of the matter is..theyr just not europeen!, the government doesnt need a reason to not let someone move to armenia! this may sound nazi, but the least moslems in armenia the better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Alpha, You didn't get the point. The argument for dual citizenship is not based on getting it just like that while living in USA or Canada or Australia or Lebanon. The idea is that you would be allowed to get it by residing in Armenia, which is not the case at the moment. At the moment "repatriates" can get citizenship but they need to give up on their other citizenship, and 99.9% of the people do not want to give up on their other citizenship (which is understandable!). Also, the argument that others can get it too is really childish, since the regulation would clearly specify Armenian ethnicity as the criterion for qualifying for dual citizenship! And it's fairly easy to define who/what an Armenian is. And Vartan Oskanian should be the last person to be called a patriot.............. Benefits of Armenian citizenship for whom? For the ruling elites? Sure it won't benefit them! Because they won't see the chair in their life again!!!!! For Armenia in the long-run?? Of course it will benefit Armenia. Think of how it would boost diaspora-Armenia relations, think of how much short-term (and possibly also long-term) residency it would encourage, more solid and long-term investments (due to rise in the diasporans' confidence), more job opportunities, more demographic concentration, and so on. Benefits you say? The only way in which dual citizenship is harmful is that it will kick the current corrupt elites out of their chairs, for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Oh, I meant "harmful" in quotations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Alpha, You didn't get the point. The argument for dual citizenship is not based on getting it just like that while living in USA or Canada or Australia or Lebanon. The idea is that you would be allowed to get it by residing in Armenia, which is not the case at the moment. At the moment "repatriates" can get citizenship but they need to give up on their other citizenship, and 99.9% of the people do not want to give up on their other citizenship (which is understandable!). not to me... can you please explain it? Also, the argument that others can get it too is really childish, since the regulation would clearly specify Armenian ethnicity as the criterion for qualifying for dual citizenship! And it's fairly easy to define who/what an Armenian is. so, why don't you give it a shot and try to define it if it's that easy? And Vartan Oskanian should be the last person to be called a patriot.............. Benefits of Armenian citizenship for whom? For the ruling elites? Sure it won't benefit them! Because they won't see the chair in their life again!!!!! For Armenia in the long-run?? Of course it will benefit Armenia. Think of how it would boost diaspora-Armenia relations, think of how much short-term (and possibly also long-term) residency it would encourage, more solid and long-term investments (due to rise in the diasporans' confidence), more job opportunities, more demographic concentration, and so on. Benefits you say? The only way in which dual citizenship is harmful is that it will kick the current corrupt elites out of their chairs, for good. i'm thinking... but i still can't see all that... why would that happen then and not now? i'm an ROA citizen... i can easily become US citizen, but i choose not to, and keep my ROA citizenship... and i see no problem with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 citizenship should not be given - it should earned - volunteer work ( in Inside and outside of Armenia ) - Serving the Army - health system ........ given only if the person has devoted / contributed to Armenia and Armenians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 not to me... can you please explain it? You might not care at all about other citizenships but many others might and do! As I said before, it's all about living and letting live! so, why don't you give it a shot and try to define it if it's that easy? I am not a lawmaker, and I will not really go through that here (that's beside the point), but anyone who is of Armenian ancestry, and there are ways to prove it, such as documents, etc. Anyway, if it works in other countries I don't see how "Armenianness" is more complicated. i'm thinking... but i still can't see all that... why would that happen then and not now? Huh??? Are you kidding me??? So you're saying I would move my entire money and put it in a bank in Armenia now when I can't even get citizenship without giving up my other citizenship??? Or can at best get a miserable 10-year passport (a joke)???? Yeah right, like that's gonna happen. More money = more investment = more jobs = better GDP = better living conditions = contribution to more repatriation. It's a loop. I don't know how you can't see that. i'm an ROA citizen... i can easily become US citizen, but i choose not to, and keep my ROA citizenship... and i see no problem with that... Right, but you forget the basic argument - that you might not have a problem with that, and not care about it, or choose not to get American citizenship, but others MIGHT and DO (hence the whole argument about dual citizenship!)...... I repeat, dual citizenship does not mean that I will get it while sitting in Lebanon. Some diasporans think that's what it means, and I am totally against that, of course. But to say that it should not be allowed at all because if people want to become citizens of Armenia they can drop their other citizenship is immature IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Sassun I just want to point that money and investments follow profits and returns, not citizenships and borders. Also, how would you define Armenianness. Is quarter Armenian is considered an Armenian? There are many Turkified Armenians in Turkey, would they be allowed to become citizens of Armenia. Please be more clear with this point. Also, why would you want to keep your citizenship of Canada, Australia, or France? Is it because when things get tough you can pack your bags and leave the country. If a person wants to be loyal to French Republic and live in Armenia they can do so under the current conditions. 10 year residency passport will give people the rights to live, work and become an integral part of the society, and when they feel like they are truly committed to the principals on which the Republic of Armenia is founded on they can become citizens of Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 .... 10 year residency passport will give people the rights to live, work and become an integral part of the society, and when they feel like they are truly committed to the principals on which the Republic of Armenia is founded on they can become citizens of Armenia. Question: Can you vote with the residency passport? BTW, welcome back Alpha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Alpha - Actually, that's how foreign investment goes, and as for Armenian small-scale investment in small-scale and medium-scale businesses, citizenship, security, borders, are key issues. Turkified Armenians? If they identify as Armenians they are not Turkified, and if they don't, then they are not anyway. What is your point? And of course, as in any case, there is the security clause which gives the state the right to reject citizenship on security grounds. As for keeping the citizenship of the other country, why would you not want to (ok, you might not want to, but others might?)? Many have grown up there, for generations, and some even feel equally American/French/Australian/Canadian/Lebanese as Armenian. Why/how is that wrong? Why do you think that any chance for double loyalty must be eliminated??? Are you willing to lose your diaspora for that, or are you willing to connect your diaspora to the homeland, even if that homeland is not geographically inclusive of the birthplace of many in the diaspora? You make it look like in adopting dual citizenship the whole world will collapse, when it is not so. People, you must stop using this apocalyptic language. The 10 year passport will not give people the right to influence the society they live in. One more thing, since we're on the topic of the 10-year passport, the definition of Armenianness is pretty much irrelevant in the dual citizenship issue to begin with, since the 10 year passport already encompasses it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassun Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Sorry for double post. Edited July 7, 2006 by Sassun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Armenia should immediately give citizenship for genocide survivors, that´s a matter of honour. I don´t see why Armenia shouldn´t accept double citizenship, let´s be frank here, citizenship today, or mobilty if you prefer, is a matter of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 You might not care at all about other citizenships but many others might and do! As I said before, it's all about living and letting live! oh really? so then why not "live and let [my bangladeshi friend] live" by getting roa citizenship while keeping his bangladeshi citizenship? why are you "not letting live"? I am not a lawmaker, and I will not really go through that here (that's beside the point), but anyone who is of Armenian ancestry, and there are ways to prove it, such as documents, etc. Anyway, if it works in other countries I don't see how "Armenianness" is more complicated. it's not... it just would be as bad as the others... Huh??? Are you kidding me??? So you're saying I would move my entire money and put it in a bank in Armenia now when I can't even get citizenship without giving up my other citizenship??? Or can at best get a miserable 10-year passport (a joke)???? Yeah right, like that's gonna happen. More money = more investment = more jobs = better GDP = better living conditions = contribution to more repatriation. It's a loop. I don't know how you can't see that. it's up to you what you would do with your money... i'm not saying anything... and btw, what people do with their money has nothing to do with their citizenship... does foreign investment ring a bell? Right, but you forget the basic argument - that you might not have a problem with that, and not care about it, or choose not to get American citizenship, but others MIGHT and DO (hence the whole argument about dual citizenship!)...... the question is not what others want... the question is why? why would you want to become roa citizen? why would you want to keep your other citizenship? I repeat, dual citizenship does not mean that I will get it while sitting in Lebanon. Some diasporans think that's what it means, and I am totally against that, of course. But to say that it should not be allowed at all because if people want to become citizens of Armenia they can drop their other citizenship is immature IMO. i think it's immature to want something (roa citizenship) just for the sake of having it, because i don't see how things will change for better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 (edited) What’s the point of dual citizenship? There are many solid arguments against it but there hasn’t been a single good point for it. If there is no ban on dual citizenship, what can forbid Turks, Iranians or other ethnic groups in the Middle East or anywhere else from applying to get a dual citizenship, while living in Ankara, Teheran or any other far fetched part of the world? Denying them dual citizenship is just discrimination. There is a simplified process to get a citizenship of Armenia for ethnic Armenians, but like many others they have to be loyal only to Armenia, so in case things get hard they don’t pack up their bags and leave the country. Some very patriotic Diaspora Armenians moved to Armenia, got a citizenship of Republic of Armenia, and denounced their US, Canadian or French citizenship. If the likes of Raffi Hovhannisyan or Vardan Oskanyan could do it than anybody else could do it. If a person wants to do business in Armenia or just live there, without relinquishing their existing citizenship they can apply for a 10 year temporary status, which is equivalent to US Green Card. It costs only $300, so it’s not a huge amount of money. I have not come across any valid argument for dual citizenship. If someone can show me the benefits of allowing dual citizenship for Republic of Armenia citizens I’d welcome. Welcome back Alpha! I'm in general agreement with your point, but lets not forget that being loyal and having only one citizenship are different issues. Many native Armenians from Armenia have chosen "greener pastures", and no one is questioning their loyalty although they had only one citizenship - that of Republic of Armenia. Edited July 8, 2006 by gamavor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted July 11, 2006 Report Share Posted July 11, 2006 yay ireland!...im proud of both my sides after the famine, the whole world pitched in and now ireland has the strongest economy in europe! imagine if that happens to armenia! we can rebuild it...but we have to get people on our side! Yeap, the Celtic Tiger. The important question is however, do you have freckles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 How about ROA giving citizenship to all the diasporan Armenians and the US giving citizenship to all current ROA citizens? I would be a happy person:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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