Arpa Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Dear Sasun, I am assuming your comment about the “one intolerant” was about me. Since, mercifully shut down I am tolerant, but I cannot tolerate those who claim to know everything about Christianity and religion when they don’t know as much as a first year Sunday School student, when they ask if Jesus had siblings. We all know that His disciple James, Hakobos was in fact His brother. I rest my case. I don’t even know why I get embroiled in these discussions with people who have not even read the Handbook of Christianity aka the New Testament. The mods may choose to remove this post as well as I hate to get into debates of religion. I get my religion from the New Testament,I can drown you and many others in quotes and Biblical passages, the hell with the other BOOK Look below; Matt.12 [46] While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. [47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. [48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matt.13 [55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Edited February 20, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) What was the point of closing the 'Exposing Christianity' thread? Edited February 20, 2006 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Seb: Because Arpa has clout and because he demanded for it to be closed. Edited February 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Seb: Because Arpa has clout and because he demanded for it to be closed. Wrong. Edward closed the thread to let you two cool off a bit. Please do. Thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Wrong. Edward closed the thread to let you two cool off a bit. Please do. Thx. I am very cool I hope everyone else is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Seb: This is what I know contrary to what some people may imply. Jesus didn't have any brothers or sisters from His Mother. St. Mary stayed a virgin all her life and was raised to Heaven with her body just like Jesus. Joseph had children from a previous marriage, it is said that St. James the apostle was one of them. Edited February 20, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Well, no more back and forth posts on something that's been discussed a million other times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I am tolerant, but I cannot tolerate those who claim to know everything about Christianity and religion when they don’t know as much as a first year Sunday School student, when they ask if Jesus had siblings. Tolerance means that one tolerates other peoples' views, including wrong views. One can disagree tolerantly, but abuse words and anger show intolerance. Religion being a sensitive topic, intolerance with religious views is even more grave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Religion being a sensitive topic, intolerance with religious views is even more grave. I would venture to say that intolerance of religious views, is the net result of people's "sensitivities" about religion. Religious freedom and tolreance would be enjoyed by all (inclusive of those who reject religion as a life philosophy) if people were less sensitive and less insecure about their religious views. We are all in this world together, why can't we live and let live without constantly encroaching upon eachother's freedoms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Tolerance means that one tolerates other peoples' views, including wrong views. One can disagree tolerantly, but abuse words and anger show intolerance. Religion being a sensitive topic, intolerance with religious views is even more grave. Yah but tolerance for the sake of tolerance is not good. I for one, will not continue to tolerate intolerance. As far as religious discussions, there ARE right and wrong. Everything can't be right. But more importantly, these are topics where there are "better" explanations. Trying to persuade one another of "The Truth" is just dumb. Plain and simple. If a discussion is not of the form of which philosophy is "better", then the discussion is worthless. Unfortunately, typically with "religious" people, their stance is always revolving around right and wrong. They start by assuming their position is True and go from there. That WILL NOT be tolerated. Not by me. Edited February 20, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I would venture to say that intolerance of religious views, is the net result of people's "sensitivities" about religion. Religious freedom and tolreance would be enjoyed by all (inclusive of those who reject religion as a life philosophy) if people were less sensitive and less insecure about their religious views. We are all in this world together, why can't we live and let live without constantly encroaching upon eachother's freedoms? I disagree Vava, you can't blame people for being sensitive. I am sure everyone is sensitive to something, why is it that religious sensitivity is wrong? So you can insult someone and say, hey, its not my fault, you are too sensitive. That doesn't work that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Yah but tolerance for the sake of tolerance is not good. I for one, will not continue to tolerate intolerance. As far as religious discussions, there ARE right and wrong. Everything can't be right. But more importantly, these are topics where there are "better" explanations. Trying to persuade one another of "The Truth" is just dumb. Plain and simple. If a discussion is not of the form of which philosophy is "better", then the discussion is worthless. Unfortunately, typically with "religious" people, their stance is always revolving around right and wrong. They start by assumping their position is True and go from there. That WILL NOT be tolerated. Not by me. Let me get this straight: you are pretty much saying if you disagree with someone then you can't tolerate. In that case what is it that you can tolerate, only people who either agree or are not sure about something? Now imagine if somebody didn't tolerate you for an opinion you had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Let me get this straight: you are pretty much saying if you disagree with someone then you can't tolerate. NO. Absolutely NOT. I am saying I will not tolerate someone who is intolerant and disrespectful of others. If someone shows up and start preaching a religion, I will NOT tolerate it. However, if someone shows up and tries to discuss a certain philosophies (like you and I have for pages and pages) regarding religion, philosophy, life, death, afterlife, etc, then I not only tolerate it, I actually highly encourage it. For the record, I disagree with you strongly on many issues, yet I still respect your position! There is a difference between discussing and preaching. Edited February 20, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I think its fair to say by imposing ones vews on another is wrong, but understanding, may not nesseserily agreeing, that could be done in a fasion where no ones feels hurt, moked or ridiculed. Like Anoushig and Sasun who carried conversations and have respect for one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 NO. Absolutely NOT. I am saying I will not tolerate someone who is intolerant and disrespectful of others. If someone shows up and start preaching a religion, I will NOT tolerate it. However, if someone shows up and tries to discuss a certain philosophies (like you and I have for pages and pages) regarding religion, philosophy, life, death, afterlife, etc, then I not only tolerate it, I actually highly encourage it. For the record, I disagree with you strongly on many issues, yet I still respect your position! There is a difference between discussing and preaching. well said Sip jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I am saying I will not tolerate someone who is intolerant and disrespectful of others. If someone shows up and start preaching a religion, I will NOT tolerate it. Sip, first of all preaching can have a wide meaning, how do you define what's preaching and what's not. But however you define it, are you saying that preaching is intolerant or disrespectful? Preaching can be viewed as advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yah but tolerance for the sake of tolerance is not good. I for one, will not continue to tolerate intolerance. Agreed entirely. I disagree Vava, you can't blame people for being sensitive. I am sure everyone is sensitive to something, why is it that religious sensitivity is wrong? So you can insult someone and say, hey, its not my fault, you are too sensitive. That doesn't work that way. Not exactly what I was saying. In order for any degree of tolerance to exist, there must exist some latitude in thought. It requires a bit of awareness that other viewpoints and beliefs exist - and moreso, that they may even have some creedance. When people start thinking in absolutes (ie. "I know the Truth, and until you walk like I have with the one and only God, you will walk in utter and total blindness and your balls will turn green") any notion of tolerance is lost. They become less sensitive to other's viewpoints, and more sensitive to "attacks" upon their own beliefs. Hence, intolerance. This is what I meant when I referred to people's sensitivities. Religious sensitivity isn't wrong per se, but when it manifests itself into intolerance, than we're arriving at Sip's point: we should not tolerate intolerance. I think its fair to say by imposing ones vews on another is wrong, but understanding, may not nesseserily agreeing, that could be done in a fasion where no ones feels hurt, moked or ridiculed. Like Anoushig and Sasun who carried conversations and have respect for one another. Edward, your post illustrates what I was trying to say above. Both Sasun and Anoushig have strong convictions about their own beliefs. However, they are both aware that other valid opinions exist - and they recognize and respect the rights of others to believe what they wish. This is tolerance even better, it's mutual understanding. Sip, first of all preaching can have a wide meaning, how do you define what's preaching and what's not. But however you define it, are you saying that preaching is intolerant or disrespectful? Preaching can be viewed as advice. Advice, yes. But preaching is essentially unsolicited advice and when it's delivered with threats, ultimatums, and general condescension, it is quite unpleasant, often offensive, and always unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) When people start thinking in absolutes (ie. "I know the Truth, and until you walk like I have with the one and only God, you will walk in utter and total blindness and your balls will turn green") any notion of tolerance is lost. well... isn't that what true faith all about? if you are anything less than that then you don't have faith... you doubt your god... when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, how can you allow yourself to sit down and listen what the other person has to say? that would mean that your faith in your god is not perfect... you have doubts in your mind about your god... furthermore, when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, when you know you have found the path and the only path, how can you sit aside and watch your fellow friend, compatriot, or any other person for that matter live in darkness, without god, walking a wrong path... wouldn't that be selfish act to not tell him/her about the truth, about the god, about the path, illuminate him/her? wouldn't it be the most unchristian thing to do, to not share the goodness with your neighbor? either you accept christ, for example, as the god, the perfect being, or you don't... there is no between, there are no buts or ifs... there is no half christian... anything less than perfect devotion and absolute doubtlessness makes you no christian... Edited February 21, 2006 by Harut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 well... isn't that what true faith all about? if you are anything less than that then you don't have faith... you doubt your god... I knew someone was going to say that Yes, I suppose faith is just that. However faith does not preclude understanding and/or acceptance. Having faith does not prevent you from understanding that there are people of other faiths that truly believe (just as you do) in their own religion - and they are not any worse for it. Accepting that fact is a large step towards tolerance. furthermore, when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, when you know you have found the path and the only path, how can you sit aside and watch your fellow friend, compatriot, or any other person for that matter live in darkness, without god, walking a wrong path... wouldn't that be selfish act to not tell him/her about the truth, about the god, about the path, illuminate him/her? wouldn't it be the most unchristian thing to do, to not share the goodness with your neighbor? There's a caveat: it's YOUR belief - it's YOUR god. Not anyone else's. If you have indeed found the 'Truth' and believe it in your heart, would you appreciate someone offering you 'advice' about finding the real 'Truth'? So then why push your belief upon someone else? Your intention may be true, but you see how it can so easily get out of control - that zeal to 'illuminate' others - may in fact become an impediment, or worse, downright offensive. Simply because you are not recognizing/accepting that their belief may give them what yours gives you. I think almost at the outset of any discussion concerning religion/spirituality/life philosophy , one can quite quickly determine whether the particpants will be receptive to 'illumination'. If the counterparts are firmly entrenched in their beliefs, then why preach? Is it necessary? Obviously, there will be no conversion. By all means, discuss, exhange ideas, share your opinions - BUT recognize that they're YOUR opinions. And others have their opinions too, and that doesn't make them bad people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Harut and Sasun: I will make it simple ... you can always use this simple test to verify whether someone is preaching or discussing: "Does the person acknowledge there is a chance he or she might be wrong?" I think the answer to that simple question says it all. I personally have also at times, preached my own religion. I have made many bold and at times stupid statements. But I have NEVER lost sight of the fact that I might be wrong. Could I even be wrong about this post? Yah maybe but what are the chances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 vava, sip, religion is not philosophy... nor gods are cool (or weird, or whatever) dudes with a lot of awsome (or superior, or whatever) ideas... god is god... litterally... no buts, no ifs, no yets, no howevers, no nothing else... and if you accept one as such, that means you don't doubt him, you don't "acknowledge there is a chance [you] might be wrong", you don't compromise, you don't test, you don't question, you don't betray, etc, etc, etc... acting otherwise means your faith is less than perfect... makes your god less than perfect... and he is god no more... it doesn't make sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I knew someone was going to say that Yes, I suppose faith is just that. However faith does not preclude understanding and/or acceptance. Having faith does not prevent you from understanding that there are people of other faiths that truly believe (just as you do) in their own religion - and they are not any worse for it. Accepting that fact is a large step towards tolerance. There's a caveat: it's YOUR belief - it's YOUR god. Not anyone else's. If you have indeed found the 'Truth' and believe it in your heart, would you appreciate someone offering you 'advice' about finding the real 'Truth'? So then why push your belief upon someone else? Your intention may be true, but you see how it can so easily get out of control - that zeal to 'illuminate' others - may in fact become an impediment, or worse, downright offensive. Simply because you are not recognizing/accepting that their belief may give them what yours gives you. I think almost at the outset of any discussion concerning religion/spirituality/life philosophy , one can quite quickly determine whether the particpants will be receptive to 'illumination'. If the counterparts are firmly entrenched in their beliefs, then why preach? Is it necessary? Obviously, there will be no conversion. By all means, discuss, exhange ideas, share your opinions - BUT recognize that they're YOUR opinions. And others have their opinions too, and that doesn't make them bad people. too bad... but such is the nature of god... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 what i'm trying to say is that you cannot expect "open mind", "tolerance", etc from someone who has found the god(s)... i'm not talking about spiritual people who believe in higher being(s) but have not found him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 what i'm trying to say is that you cannot expect "open mind", "tolerance", etc from someone who has found the god(s)... i'm not talking about spiritual people who believe in higher being(s) but have not found him... Harut jan: Though ever since yesterday's "unhamoutyoun and lively discussions" I have a headache and dizziness and I had no desire or might to answer; but I am only going to say this. "peranet hampourem"; (it's an Armenian way of saying how just hit the spot; by golly you've got it) for understanding the core of the problems and explaining to them how exactly it is. I will say no more and I will go back to nursing myself and or studying while I nurse myself. Good night Harut jan and thank you for understanding it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) what i'm trying to say is that you cannot expect "open mind", "tolerance", etc from someone who has found the god(s). So should we kick out all those who have "found God"? Or are you saying the non-religious among us should just put up with the God-lovers and turn the other cheek when insulted? Edited February 21, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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