karakash Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 And what about the local and poor people who do'nt have any jobs and they are starving. Some of them I heard on this site are doing illegal and demeaning jobs such as pimping and or starving. Shouldn't the government think about the people? Where's the love of their country? I get worried, because Armenia is sort of a 3rd world country, it is not the U.S. large industrial and rich. The people are very important for the little Armenia; especially when about a million and a half have gone abroad. style_images/master/snapback.png Sort of a third world country? I think it is... Things will get better over time. I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Sort of a third world country? I think it is... Things will get better over time. I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done. style_images/master/snapback.png yeap I totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Sort of a third world country? I think it is... Things will get better over time. I'm sure there are individuals who can speed things up more than the current administration, but without the diaspora, nothing can be done. style_images/master/snapback.png I have a different view. I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) I have a different view. I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish style_images/master/snapback.png How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU? The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself Edited September 23, 2005 by Lev7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU? The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself style_images/master/snapback.png Lev and Azat: I say that both are important. Armenia and the Diaspora. Yes we survived; but because of the Genocide and the first generation of the Genocide Armenians were more so to speak, deeply rooted Armenians as they were the first and the 2nd generation from the Genocide. Having once been in their anscestral lands, then having seen all that atrocity and the animocity from the merciless enemy (the Turks) with their own eyes and their own flesh and blood made them to be more vengeful and more Armenian. Now the 3rd and the 4th generations are already intermarrying with odars and I don't know if the Diaspora amidst the 'djermag chart' as it is said plenty of times, can withstand without the actual Armenian land. A land for a people is a vital thing. Without your land in time you will parish. Yes, today the Diaspora is helping out; however I don't know if the future generations will continue that legacy and the love of their country when they do continue to intermarry with 'odars' non Armenians. An 'odar' never do feel what you and I feel for Armenia nor for Armenians. That is why Armenia must prevail, must prosper and become bigger yet. Edited September 23, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karakash Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Lev and Azat: I say that both are important. Armenia and the Diaspora. Yes we survived; but because of the Genocide and the first generation of the Genocide Armenians were more so to speak, deeply rooted Armenians as they were the first and the 2nd generation from the Genocide. Having once been in their anscestral lands, then having seen all that atrocity and the animocity from the merciless enemy (the Turks) with their own eyes and their own flesh and blood made them to be more vengeful and more Armenian. Now the 3rd and the 4th generations are already intermarrying with odars and I don't know if the Diaspora amidst the 'djermag chart' as it is said plenty of times, can withstand without the actual Armenian land. A land for a people is a vital thing. Without your land in time you will parish. Yes, today the Diaspora is helping out; however I don't know if the future generations will continue that legacy and the love of their country when they do continue to intermarry with 'odars' non Armenians. An 'odar' never do feel what you and I feel for Armenia nor for Armenians. That is why Armenia must prevail, must prosper and become bigger yet. style_images/master/snapback.png I must agree with the above. One cannot survive without the other. I am however pessimistic about the prospects for the diaspora, especially here on the East Coast. I've been to many Armenian churches and communities and they don't compare to communities on the West Coast or to the ones in the Middle East. Because of smaller numbers and a greater percentage of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation Armenians, the situation looks like it is getting worse. It seems like there has always been an influx of Armenians here on the East Coast to help sustain the community. From the 1960-1980s the ones from the Middle East and then the ones from Armenia after the earthquake, Artsax, and independence. What would have happened had the large group had not come to the US from Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, etc. What about the Armenians from Baku and Armenia. The diaspora cannot sustain itself with 2nd and 3rd generation Armenians in for example a community like Worcester (one of the oldest on the East Coast) without new people. The older gneeration dies off, the younger ones marry odars most of the time, and without new immigrants, the churches suffer, communities reduce in size, and some people even say church services should be in English. Now I'm going off point. I'm not trying to be pessimistic but what's going to happen in 20 or 30 years on the East Coast without a new wave of immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 How did it not vanish for 80 something years when there was no Armenia during the SU? The important is not Armenia, but the Armenian spirit, Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself style_images/master/snapback.png Exactly my point. one guy will be left in Africa, one is Asia and maybe even one in Australia but at least we will have 10000 churches. FYI, Armenia did exist for 80 year during SU and it prospered very well. But even with that you cant tell me that the diaspora has not gotten gotten more assimilated and that every year we loose more and more Armenians. Without Armenia, Diaspora will disappear from the face of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 The way to hold on to the Armenian diaspora is to remain flexible. When there are litmus tests as to who is accepted as an Armenian, you lose those who potentially would maintain loyalty to the group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) Armenians can create Armenia in any part of the world. I saw a tv program about Armenains and it said that somewhere in Africa, sorry I forgot the place, one Armenian was living and he decided to build a church, just for himself style_images/master/snapback.png In don’t know about the authenticity of that story but it brings to mind a joke. There was this highly successful Armenian who bought himself an Island, much like Long Island. He made a whole country for himself. He built himself a palace, a museum, a theater, a sports complex, a library and a convention center and TWO CHURCHES on either end of the Island. When asked; Why ONE of everything, but TWO CHURCHES? He pointed to one of the churches and said; “That is the church I don’t go to”. End of joke. Remember the 1001 curches of Ani? Can you touch them? Edited September 23, 2005 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 My cousin once scolded me. He asked me "How dare you go to those Dashnag dances?" I told him that I was not a "dyed-in-the-wool" Armenian like he was and considered an Armenian an Armenian regardless. I ended up marrying a woman whose family attended a Dashnag church. My brother ended up marrying a Jew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) I was talking with a friend a while ago about what type of model is most appropriate for the armenian nation. Having a country (i.e RoA) is essential, it is actually a very big thing, a sort of basic starting point that we are very lucky to have (some people take it for granted!). But the story is not as simple as it seems: bringing all armenians in the homeland and living there happily, in the "land of armenians" is not realistic in my opinion. The diaspora will exist for a very long time, always fueled with new migrants.... this is not an armenian phenomenon, the entire world has become like that, find a US city that does not have an italian. pakistani, indian, chinese, greek, or mexican community, you can't! The difference should be in the type of diaspora we want to build. I just read an article from the armenia2020 website on armenia-diaspora interactions and perspectives. Very intelligent and accurate study, you should definitely read it, it will clarify many things (it's only 35 pages, you'll go over it in one or 2 hours). They present a scenario entitled "organized decentralization" which, in my view, seems to be the optimal outcome: Different communities in the world, fairly well organized, with a sense of belonging to the community but strongly related to armenia through contacts (friends, visits, work terms, studying at armenian universities, etc). This way, when armenians in the world move around, whether from armenia, or from community to community, they will always find an extension of Armenia, a school to send their children to, a church, a community center, friends, contacts, help, advice, etc. This is actually very probable. how many of you on this forum are students who don't know exactly where they will be working after graduation, it's probably going to be in big cities of the world, where industries are.... and we'll have a community in each one of them! This will be a globalized sort of nation, with a base, Armenia, that fuels the peripherals and is in turn helped by the latter. The fact that diaspora armenians will be moving around very often, and that only a small percentage of them will settle in Armenia (in the best case scenario) is undeniable. Even armenians from Armenia will want to go abroad, work, gain experience, make money, perhaps come back, and this is not only related to the economic situation. There are tens of thousands of french who immigrate to canada every year, yet France is a G7 country. It's just the way the world has become and in order to survive this, we basically need to amend some organizational aspects of our communities. Note that a lot has already been done, communities, churches and schools exist, this new task is not to be seen as a "mission impossible". President Kocharian said it during a meeting with diaspora organizations 6-7 years ago, something like: "The diaspora with its institutions, traditions and organizations is an asset for Armenia and the armenians, if these structures did not exist, it would have been necessary to create them at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars which Armenia does not have." Just read that study about armenia and diaspora and let me know what you think!The topic was about armenian leaders, no? how did we get all the way here? Later boys and girls A. Edited September 23, 2005 by Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killuminati Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 I can rule. And I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) I have a different view. I say without Armenia Diaspora will vanish style_images/master/snapback.png I agree to this. Armenia is very vital to Diaspora. Edited September 24, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 In don’t know about the authenticity of that story but it brings to mind a joke. There was this highly successful Armenian who bought himself an Island, much like Long Island. He made a whole country for himself. He built himself a palace, a museum, a theater, a sports complex, a library and a convention center and TWO CHURCHES on either end of the Island. When asked; Why ONE of everything, but TWO CHURCHES? He pointed to one of the churches and said; “That is the church I don’t go to”. End of joke. Remember the 1001 curches of Ani? Can you touch them? style_images/master/snapback.png Although this is a funny story; but years ago when some Armenian people separated our church here in the U.S., then I heard unfortunately it wasn't funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud EXPAT Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) You are absolutely right. The only problem is that the people that own such places are not your average businessmen. They are owned by the political elite and their friends. They grant themselves the right to operate such establishments and then funnel money to other projects. style_images/master/snapback.png This generalization sucks. I know many diaspora Armenians who are not in any way involved in politics who run these kinds of businesses. karakash you mentioned something about a diasporan not being elected but someone close to kocharian such as oskanian or sargsian. ah, isn't oskanian a diasporan? second if sargsian became president, completely completely impossible if there were fair elections, but believe me NO ONE will vote for that idiot. if he became with unfair elections the only thing that will lead to is another revolution in eastern europe. Edited September 24, 2005 by Proud EXPAT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 This generalization sucks. I know many diaspora Armenians who are not in any way involved in politics who run these kinds of businesses. karakash you mentioned something about a diasporan not being elected but someone close to kocharian such as oskanian or sargsian. ah, isn't oskanian a diasporan? second if sargsian became president, completely completely impossible if there were fair elections, but believe me NO ONE will vote for that idiot. if he became with unfair elections the only thing that will lead to is another revolution in eastern europe. style_images/master/snapback.png Diasporans? Let us count them. You can add to the list Starting at the bottom/top; LTP was born in Halep, so was Oskanian, Hovannissian, the first FM was born in Ca. Jirayr Libaridian, the one time advisor to LTP In business, I’m sure there are much more. Atinizian/Korian /Talanian the triumvirate that own and franchise/manage the Marriott/Armenia Hotel. Tufenkian, The Hovnanians. Aaaah~ , not to forget that biggest “diasporan” of them all -Kocharian. And of course you Our Proud One. How is Raffi Kojian doing? Who else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud EXPAT Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) Diasporans? Let us count them. You can add to the list Starting at the bottom/top; LTP was born in Halep, so was Oskanian, Hovannissian, the first FM was born in Ca. Jirayr Libaridian, the one time advisor to LTP In business, I’m sure there are much more. Atinizian/Korian /Talanian the triumvirate that own and franchise/manage the Marriott/Armenia Hotel. Tufenkian, The Hovnanians. Aaaah~ , not to forget that biggest “diasporan” of them all -Kocharian. And of course you Our Proud One. How is Raffi Kojian doing? Who else? style_images/master/snapback.png True many diaspora business owners. Raffi Kojian not sure why dont you ask him. Edited September 24, 2005 by Proud EXPAT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) Greece, Latvia (or is it Estonia), Israel and now Georgia have had American expatriats as President. Why not Armenia? There is more to civil society than business. Why are we considered to be any different? Most of us did not end up at the ends of the earth by choice. Edited September 25, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Greece, Latvia (or is it Estonia), Israel and now Georgia have had American expatriats as President. Why not Armenia? There is more to civil society than business. Why are we considered to be any different? Most of us did not end up at the ends of the earth by choice. style_images/master/snapback.png Because I don't want any lunatic mother***er like Saakashvili or Yushenko imposed in Armenia only because has an Armenian surname. Only the disporans who come and live here will be elected for presidency. Oskanian has the right. Raffi Hovhanissian relates to Armenian problems as much as he relates to the problems of Burkina Faso. He is his papa's favourite son, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Because I don't want any lunatic mother***er like Saakashvili or Yushenko imposed in Armenia only because has an Armenian surname. Only the disporans who come and live here will be elected for presidency. Oskanian has the right. Raffi Hovhanissian relates to Armenian problems as much as he relates to the problems of Burkina Faso. He is his papa's favourite son, nothing more. style_images/master/snapback.png Armen, Perhaps Hovanissian's unemotional approach will be better. We are too emotional a people. The head rules better than the gut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Armen, Perhaps Hovanissian's unemotional approach will be better. We are too emotional a people. The head rules better than the gut. style_images/master/snapback.png Phantom, I highly doubt that Hovhannissian is unemotional. Also, he is unprofessional and any of his moves lack essence. We could as well invite some cold-blooded Scandinavian. Why is it that we always want an Armenian to be our leader. I think a total forigner would be a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 Armen, Queen Elizabeth's husband was a member of the royal family of Greece, but his background is from Germany. There are a lot of diasporan Armenians who are AINO (Armenian in name only). Perhaps one of these should take the reins. Harry Lee, British to the core, did wonders for Singapore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Armen, Queen Elizabeth's husband was a member of the royal family of Greece, but his background is from Germany. There are a lot of diasporan Armenians who are AINO (Armenian in name only). Perhaps one of these should take the reins. Harry Lee, British to the core, did wonders for Singapore. style_images/master/snapback.png That's fine and dandy to be cool, calm and calculating, but will their hearts be in it as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Armen, Queen Elizabeth's husband was a member of the royal family of Greece, but his background is from Germany. There are a lot of diasporan Armenians who are AINO (Armenian in name only). Perhaps one of these should take the reins. Harry Lee, British to the core, did wonders for Singapore. style_images/master/snapback.png Anahid, For your information Harry Lee (Kuan Yew) is a Perankan, a Chinese/Malay mix, but between the ears he is a true Brit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 (edited) That's fine and dandy to be cool, calm and calculating, but will their hearts be in it as well? style_images/master/snapback.png Anahid, Hearts have gotten us NOWHERE but getting butchered, numerous times. Edited September 26, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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