Lev7 Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) I think the diaspora will rule Armenia much better than those current idiots, like Kocharyan that hinder Armenia's development. Armenia needs people with western education, people who have different mentality and different approach to things. What do everyone think on this matter? Edited September 20, 2005 by Lev7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Armenian leaders are not idiots, and Kocharian is fairly intelligent in my view! Let's have some respect among and between us and not insult our leaders! A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karakash Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Native Armenians will not allow a diasporan to rule the country. Neither will the mafia. The next president will be Serge or Vartan, both insiders. I'm guessing Vartan. Raffi Hovanissian cannot win, although I do admire him and his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) Armenian leaders are not idiots, and Kocharian is fairly intelligent in my view! Let's have some respect among and between us and not insult our leaders! A. style_images/master/snapback.png pffft, pleeease, respect for leaders that rob and milk the country like it is their own business. I do not deny that Kocharyan and Co. are smart, but they grow in power in expense of poor Armenian people, most of them live below the poverty level. With so much diaspora money pouring in the country you will think the country should prosper by now. First of all Kocharyan should create a comfortable conditions for foreign investment, diaspora Armenians are afraid to invest money there, since they see how many people got burned by the crooks over there. Corruption must end there and the only way is get all those crooks out of there and replace them with well off people from here that are not doing it for the money but for the Armenian people! Edited September 20, 2005 by Lev7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 pffft, pleeease, respect for leaders that rob and milk the country like it is their own business. I do not deny that Kocharyan and Co. are smart, but they grow in power in expense of poor Armenian people, most of them live below the poverty level. With so much diaspora money pouring in the country you will think the country should prosper by now. First of all Kocharyan should create a comfortable conditions for foreign investment, diaspora Armenians are afraid to invest money there, since they see how many people got burned by the crooks over there. Corruption must end there and the only way is get all those crooks out of there and replace them with well off people from here that are not doing it for the money but for the Armenian people! style_images/master/snapback.png Although Kocharian seems to be a very intelligent man. His crew are intelligent people too. They know how to deal with the enemy well; but they must be able to create more jobs there and so the people will not feel obliged to run away to the diaspora. One thing for sure. He must immediately jail people or anyone that steals and acts in an unethical and immoral way. He must also clean up any governmental officers and individuals that also act in an unethical manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 I think the diaspora will rule Armenia much better than those current idiots, like Kocharyan that hinder Armenia's development. style_images/master/snapback.png If the diaspora means people like you, then this disrespectful comment that you wrote about Armenia's current leader is greatly concerning me. Armenia needs people with western education, people who have different mentality and different approach to things. What do everyone think on this matter? That'd be a good solution, but the people living in Armenia also have different mentality from the suggested leaders from diaspora. It wouldn't work. Armenia will get better once the mentality brought from the Soviet era will shift with the coming of post-Soviet generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Corruption must end there and the only way is get all those crooks out of there and replace them with well off people from here that are not doing it for the money but for the Armenian people! style_images/master/snapback.png The situation that Armenia (and all the ex-Soviet countries) is in is very tough. No one leader would be able to turn things around just like that. Where is that person? We keep saying kick Kocharian out, but who will replace him? You? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) The situation that Armenia (and all the ex-Soviet countries) is in is very tough. No one leader would be able to turn things around just like that. Where is that person? We keep saying kick Kocharian out, but who will replace him? You? style_images/master/snapback.png Let Kocharyan finish his term. Despite some people's objections, we then need a diasporan to lead Armenia. I think that Hovanissian is the best prospect. Mafia? So you think that they should continue to run Armenia? So you think that the majority of Armenians in the ROA are happy with the inequities? Edited September 20, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 The situation that Armenia (and all the ex-Soviet countries) is in is very tough. No one leader would be able to turn things around just like that. Where is that person? We keep saying kick Kocharian out, but who will replace him? You? style_images/master/snapback.png Look at Mikhail Saakasvilli, how he transformed Georgia, there is no more taking bribes by the police and corruption is considered a serious crime there now. I have friends in Tbilisi and they say that lots of things changed there since he came to rule towards the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 We keep saying kick Kocharian out, but who will replace him? You? style_images/master/snapback.png Don't worry, you do the kicking out part, I will replace him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 If the diaspora means people like you, then this disrespectful comment that you wrote about Armenia's current leader is greatly concerning me. That'd be a good solution, but the people living in Armenia also have different mentality from the suggested leaders from diaspora. It wouldn't work. Armenia will get better once the mentality brought from the Soviet era will shift with the coming of post-Soviet generation. style_images/master/snapback.png I think you should go to Armenia and live there then we will see how would you describe the current leaders! I am not saying people like me should rule Armenia, if I became the president, I will put most of the politicians and leaders in jail lol Kocharyan and his goons ride in expensive cars, eat in expensive restaraunts, their sons do whatever they want without getting punished on the expense of the poor people who are still waiting for the conditions to improve over there. Soon they won't be anyone left there, just those greedy idiots. It is easy to look blindly on every difficulty that the Armenian people have to face each day with $30 a month on average income sitting in your warm place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Look at Mikhail Saakasvilli, how he transformed Georgia, there is no more taking bribes by the police and corruption is considered a serious crime there now. I have friends in Tbilisi and they say that lots of things changed there since he came to rule towards the better. style_images/master/snapback.png the question is, do the people want someone like saakashvilli, or anyone else from diaspora for that matter, to rule in armenia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Never a diasporan. That will never ever happen. The president must be born and raised in Armenia. Yes I know LTP, but many things were wrong with LTP. Kocharyan is the best possible President that Armenia could have now. Nothing better exists. Things are getting better on a daily basis and Armenia is doing much better than either one of our Transcaucasian neighbours who have much more manpower and resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud EXPAT Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 the question is, do the people want someone like saakashvilli, or anyone else from diaspora for that matter, to rule in armenia? style_images/master/snapback.png I'd be surprised if locals voted for Vardan. As decent as he's been and as amazing as he's represented us abroad with his awesome speeches, and as much as locals like him, most locals really like a man who is a little more rougher, a little more kopit really. Whoever I've asked they say Vardan is too nice and soft. Though I've heard a lot of teens say that if they had a choice they would vote for Hovanessian cause they don't trust any more locals ruling this country. Can you believe it? Locals are starting to look towards a diaspora leader. As much as Saakashvilli has done good for Georgia there are lots and lots of people who don't like him for whatever reason. I'm glad his crew is frequently coming to Armenia to build better relations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karakash Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Let Kocharyan finish his term. Despite some people's objections, we then need a diasporan to lead Armenia. I think that Hovanissian is the best prospect. Mafia? So you think that they should continue to run Armenia? So you think that the majority of Armenians in the ROA are happy with the inequities? style_images/master/snapback.png A diasporan would be great but it will not happen any time soon. After Kocharian it will be one of his allies - Oskanian or Sargisian. Their friends will be able to maintain their business interests for as long as possible. There are many opportunities for the leaders to be corrupt so obviously they are going to grab at them. Eliminating corruption is not going to happen overnight unless people are paid decent wages. Then they won't have the need to steal. Politicians will line their pockets no matter what - it happens here in the US as well. Bush creating the war so that his buddies can make some money. Nothing new. As for the majority, all those that could leave have already left. The rest are starving or have families sending money from LA or Moscow. I doubt they are happy now. There needs to be a lot of trickle down effect for the average Armenian to be happy these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 the question one must ask is, is Armenia a better place now then it was 12 years ago? of course it is, is there more corruption? yes of course and Anoushik said it correctly, Armenia is still a Nation in transition and it will take much more time untill it developes into a solid healty vibrant Nation, to insure this Diaspora as well as our coutryman in Armenia must work to overcome problems and dificulties, being critical is vital and healty to any sociaity, but just to critizise!?, even if corruption would go away overnight!.....people who always bang the nagative drum will find someting else. we have many good sayings but hardly fallow them, the most important one is, "Hayots azg qu prkutyune miayn qo miasnakan uji mej eh" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) For those of you who think Armenia has not improved and that only goons run the country and do well but the rest are suffering are VERY wrong. Armenians in general love to complain, but the country has seen a HUGE change in the last few years. As for money from the diaspora. It is a drop in teh bucket. Even you admit in one sentence that Diasporans are not putting money into Armenia. Yes there are a handful of very generous Armenians who are but the rest are not doing anything but just talking big. With so much diaspora money pouring in the country you will think the country should prosper by now. First of all Kocharyan should create a comfortable conditions for foreign investment, diaspora Armenians are afraid to invest money there, since they see how many people got burned by the crooks over there. Edited September 20, 2005 by Azat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karakash Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 the question one must ask is, is Armenia a better place now then it was 12 years ago? of course it is, is there more corruption? yes of course and Anoushik said it correctly, Armenia is still a Nation in transition and it will take much more time untill it developes into a solid healty vibrant Nation, to insure this Diaspora as well as our coutryman in Armenia must work to overcome problems and dificulties, being critical is vital and healty to any sociaity, but just to critizise!?, even if corruption would go away overnight!.....people who always bang the nagative drum will find someting else. we have many good sayings but hardly fallow them, the most important one is, "Hayots azg qu prkutyune miayn qo miasnakan uji mej eh" style_images/master/snapback.png Every time I go there it gets better. But that usually means I see more cafes and restaurants and fewer casinos... Many of our friends have bought property and or houses there. Property values are ridiculously high. Someone I know bought a house on Abovian three years ago for $40,000 and sold it this summer for $150,000. You have to wonder though - I think no matter who would have been in power since 1991, the situation was bound to get better. I don't think it could have gotten worse during the time of the energy crisis. I guess the difference is who is better able to accelerate the growth of the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Every time I go there it gets better. But that usually means I see more cafes and restaurants and fewer casinos... style_images/master/snapback.png isn't that actual sign of improvement? doesn't that mean there is more demend for that kind of establishments? people have more spare money to spend at those places? doesn't opening such places create jobs for locals (cooks, cleaners, waiters, managers, marketers, accountants, etc.)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karakash Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 isn't that actual sign of improvement? doesn't that mean there is more demend for that kind of establishments? people have more spare money to spend at those places? doesn't opening such places create jobs for locals (cooks, cleaners, waiters, managers, marketers, accountants, etc.)? style_images/master/snapback.png You are absolutely right. The only problem is that the people that own such places are not your average businessmen. They are owned by the political elite and their friends. They grant themselves the right to operate such establishments and then funnel money to other projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) First and foremost, for the "nice" people out there who think that corruption will disappear one day from Armenia, that everyone will understand that he/she has to behave ...... well you should better examine the mentality of people in those regions. Italy is a developed country of the G7, yet corruption does clearly exist there and in all countries surrounding the mediterranean sea as a matter of fact. The aim of the government is simply to reduce corruption just below the level at which it is no longer a threat to national security. That's it. There is no talk of profound change and transformation of social values and traditions of the caucasus, mediterranean, and middle eastern nations. And most probably it will remain like this for a while. This also brings in the point that the leaders of Armenia are not the sole responsible individuals for this process..... everything depends on the entire nation. I firmly believe that the highest leaders of Armenia are far from being as dirty as portrayed (Serge, Robert, Vartan, etc), I can't say the same about the average bureaucrat and government employee because their wages are very low, and I would also steel to feed my family if I was getting 30$ a month. A lot of people criticise them on this forum and in medias in general because it is easy to do so. Few people have the background to actually criticize war heroes. If you go on www.hetq.am you have decent criticism of the regime, it is constructive and intelligent criticism..... not bashing and insulting of the president. For those who hate kocharian I have a simple question: where were you (or if you were too young, where were your parents) in the summer of 1992 ...... when 48% of karabagh was occupied and tanks were 17km from Stepanakert? Kocharian was in stepanakert, his family too, the option of moving probably existed but he did not take it nor did he send his family away. That's when kocharian first came to a serious power position at the head of the "state defense commitee" with pretty much the following mandate: "To avoid, by any means and by a sort of miracle, the loss of Artsakh and ensure the physical security of the people of Karabagh" .... 2 years later a ceasefire was signed! Of course he did not do all of this alone, the entire nation participated. So where were you? Or your family? The fact is most of us did not participate in the war and neither did our families, mine included (I was too young). I understand that some of you might have been there or members of your families were there, but in general this is an exception, most of us were not present ........ but most of us are present today to insult and bash a president! or a defense minister like Serge or his predecessor Vazgen Sarksian. People say good things about Vazgen today but it wasn't the case before his death. I was in Armenia during the summer of 1999 and people would destroy Vazgen all day long (he had just been nominated prime minister .... envy and jealousy were all around), forgetting that he had organized the "mahabard" detachment during the same 1992 summer. Today, people say good things about Garen Demirchian? If your memory is good you should remember political conversations in every armenian home during the 80s, try to remember hearing good things about Garen..... I can't.... every taxi driver, every villager, every intellectual would tell you that he was sick of Garen ...... but when he died..... that's another story, everyone cried for him! I guess another proverb armenians use quite often is "kna merir, yegur sirem"! About diasporans leading Armenia? Well, the first 2 presidents of Armenia were not born on the territory of the soviet socialist republic of Armenia (LTP was born in Syria and Robert in stepanakert).... if Serge, Raffi or Vartan is elected, he will be the 3rd president born outside Armenia! But who cares, as long as the job is well done, right? Later guys and girls A. Edited September 21, 2005 by Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 If I offended anyone, sorry...didn't mean to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted September 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 (edited) You people live in some fary land. The only reason Armenia is at least somewhat better than lets say 5-6 years ago is the investment from Diaspora, mainly the money from Lincy foundation, which literally re-constructed the whole Yerevan and construction, new roads, new buildings always lead to economic surge. But this will not continue forever if something else is done. If the whole Armenian economy is controlled by a handful people, this means that there is something wrong with this scenario. Try importing sugar into Armenia, you will get killed the next day. Kocharyan and the whole government is controlled by the mafia, which consists of several families. This is not right! Yes, Armenia got better, but please do not say that Kocharyan is best for Armenia now, when you say this you automatically make people quesiton your intelligence or your understanding whats really going on over there. If Armenia was ruled with people with western education and mentality Armenia would be a much prosperous country than it is now, where you either have to steal, lie or bribe someone to make a buck. As Aaron said, yes Kocharyan was in Karabagh during the hard times, good for him what can I say, but this does not mean that he is a good president. Monte Melkonian left his sunny California and fought in the Karabagh war, but this does not mean we should make him a president. Armenia needs order and needs to end its corruption and under Kocharyan or under any of his people I do not see this ever happening! Edited September 21, 2005 by Lev7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 We have already seen how the diasporans are "not corrupt". Don't want to mention any names but some of you have raised corruption to international level, something poor Hayastantsi leadership could only wish in their wildest dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 You are absolutely right. The only problem is that the people that own such places are not your average businessmen. They are owned by the political elite and their friends. They grant themselves the right to operate such establishments and then funnel money to other projects. style_images/master/snapback.png And what about the local and poor people who do'nt have any jobs and they are starving. Some of them I heard on this site are doing illegal and demeaning jobs such as pimping and or starving. Shouldn't the government think about the people? Where's the love of their country? I get worried, because Armenia is sort of a 3rd world country, it is not the U.S. large industrial and rich. The people are very important for the little Armenia; especially when about a million and a half have gone abroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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