Massacres Of Armenians In 1915 Nothing But Genocid

[phantom22]

You know, I think you have a mental problem.

 

I never said I will e-mail her.  Others did I did not.

 

And you better refrain from saying stupid comments to me,

 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

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Anahid,

 

Now you see why I have long stated that Verginne (AKA: Anoush, Armenian Revenge, AR) and the word "khentanotz" should meet. Either that or he/she is a Turkish provacateur here to stir up trouble.

Edited October 1, 2005 by phantom22

[phantom22]

This, of course, is what people are talking about when you hear that some Armenians don't really want any resolution to the Genocide issue with Turkey, that they just want to keep the hatred going in order to keep their political agendas alive, and that Armenians are their own worst enemies.  It's good to be reminded every once in a while that there are such people.  One the day that Turkey offers every living Armenian a million dollars cash and the restoration of Tigran the Great's kingdom these people will scream "Turkish Trick!  I refuse your piddling offer!"  And then they will expect Armenians to thank them for their patriotism. AM I YELLING LOUD ENOUGH?

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It is time to settle this issue. That does not mean that we have to capitulate. Use your wits. The progressive Turks want this settled also, but are walking a tightrope with the fanatics and the military goons.

 

Unreasonable perpetuation of the impasse is not in our best interests. Recognition and the private property rights of the Armenian, Greek, Assyrian and EVEN Turkish CHRISTIAN Churches, past and PRESENT is at the top of the agenda. Next come the property rights of All Christians past and present. Then the cultural rights of the Kurds and other minorities in Turkey.

 

Thr potential rights of the ROA to the territories of Kars, Ardahan and other areas of Eastern Anatolia are a MUCH trickier issue for resolvement. Furthermore, what Diaspora Armenian is going to move there permanently from the hills of Glendale or the tony suburbs of Paris or New York / New Jersey, etc. etc?

Edited October 2, 2005 by phantom22

[Takoush]

Anahid,

 

Now you see why I have long stated that Verginne (AKA: Anoush, Armenian Revenge, AR) and the word "khentanotz" should meet. Either that or he/she is a Turkish provacateur here to stir up trouble.

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Dear phantom22:

 

Not only she/he stirs up trouble but he/she brings people's blood pressure way up.

 

Thank goodness I am a healthy girl and I am not old, otherwise, let's put it this way; I would never have married her/him - and if I did, I would've divorced him very soon! Oaf beh! Der voghormia!

 

You are right buddy!!!!!!!!

Edited October 2, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Thr potential rights of the ROA to the territories of Kars, Ardahan and other areas of Eastern Anatolia are a MUCH trickier issue for resolvement. Furthermore, what Diaspora Armenian is going to move there permanently from the hills of Glendale or the tony suburbs of Paris or New York / New Jersey, etc. etc?

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You know phantom: This made me laugh for a little while. Can you imagine all of us moving from Glendale, New Jersey, New York, France or Australia and start harvesting such as our forefathers used to do. Unless of course, we go back to Western Armenia with our $$$$$$s and then build nice big cities and then start working from there. Well it's all well wishing of course on my part; but who knows.

[phantom22]

Anahid,

 

The territory issue is the thorniest and most difficult to resolve. It will bring the heaviest Turkish resistance as it is the most permanent and long-lasting change. The other reforms will help Turkey's efforts to join Europe and grow wealthy. It put a distance between itself and Europe when it annihilated the Armenians and other Christians. This is a distance she can no longer afford. She HAS to become a multi-ethnic multi-religious secular state again. Therefore, it is in her best interests to set back the clock. Can you project what the diaspora Armenian entrepreneurs will do to the shores of Lake Van?

 

Territorial issues will be much more difficult to resolve because Turkey can not view this as in her self-interest. If borders in the EU dissolve, and she is part of it, perhaps borders will no longer matter. Yet, nationalism is still strong in the world.

 

In any case Turkey will never willingly give up territory. That is a pipe dream.

[Dave]

Turkey has billions to pay to Armenia/Armenians. Giving sone land to Armenia would be much easier...

[phantom22]

Turkey has billions to pay to Armenia/Armenians. Giving sone land to Armenia would be much easier...

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Dave, I don't think that you are being realistic. So the property rights of the survivors will be swept under the rug while the ROA top-brass cut a deal with the Turkish government for the land under Ararat? How typically Armenian!

Edited October 2, 2005 by phantom22

[hytga]

dzuky jrum bazer eq anum jogovurd

[Takoush]

Dave, I don't think that you are being realistic. So the peoperty rights of the survivors will be swept under the rug while the ROA top-brass cut a deal with the Turkish government for the land under Ararat? How typically Armenian!

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Phantom22:

 

Although Hytga is quite right about arguing such matters now; but I happen to agree with Dave. I wish to have our lands back. I don't think it's ROA's top brass has anything to do with this. It's our anscestral lands we are talking about. Although I know you are also concerned about your grandfather's wealth and such and I fully understand you as my maternal great grandfather was extremely wealthy and we also lost everything afther the 1915 thru 1922 AG. However, I happen to think myself if you will like a typical Armenian as well.

 

More than any money in the world I would love to have my anscestral lands back, and all of it returned for whatever price we should give even with our own blood. That is my real and utmost wish. This is the end and the way for me.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

Phantom22:

 

Although Hytga is quite right about arguing such matters now; but I happen to agree with Dave.  I wish to have our lands back.  I don't think it's ROA's top brass has anything to do with this.  It's our anscestral lands we are talking about.  Although I know you are also concerned about your grandfather's wealth and such and I fully understand you as my maternal great grandfather was extremely wealthy and we also lost everything afther the 1915 thru 1922 AG.  However, I happen to think myself if you will like a typical Armenian as well. 

 

More than any money in the world I would love to have my anscestral lands back, and all of it returned for whatever price we should give even with our own blood.  That is my real and utmost wish.  This is the end and the way for me.

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Anahid,

 

I would like nothing better than for Erdogan and Gul to go to Yerevan and meet with Kocharian and Oskanian and voluntarily cede Eastern Anatolia (as Western Armenia) back to the Armenian Republic as compensation for the annihilation of the Ottoman Armenians, which included about 85% of my family.

 

What are the other scenarios that you folks propose? Turkey is armed to the teeth.

 

Only the Russian bear or Persians could militarily give the Turks a scare. Turkey is not Azerbaijan, where we had the Russians on our side. Then, if by a miracle we gain these lands by force, how are we going to hold them? Become another Israel?

 

The better way is to open channels with the progressive Turks. Break down barriers.

Edited October 2, 2005 by phantom22

[Arpa]

Hey people!

Let's be realistic. Lest we in the process of obtaining a pair of trousers lose our vartiks too. Below what I wrote some time ago, a year ago to be precise. You will find the thread Under the topic of "Klikia".

As is even Yerevan Province is sparsely populated. Belgium the exact same size has a population of over 10 million, Taiwan, also the same size as RA, population 23 million.

How are we going to populate those lands? I have not yet heard anyone packing their bags and move over.

 

Sep 28 2004, 02:01 PM Post #1 

 

 

http://www.reelclassics.com/Actors/O'T...ream-lyrics.htm

 

The Impossible Dream??

Of late, now that "Mer Hayreniq" has been adopted by the RA as an anthem the Kilikian See has rediscovered another nostalgic "anthem" known as Kilikia, lyrics by Rusinian and music by Eranian;

Can someone post the entire song?

 

Erb or batsvin drnern huso

Ev mer erkren pakh ta tsmer....

When the gates of hope open

And, from our lands winter is banned....

 

The impossible dream?

 

Let us first concentarte on liberating Ani and Ararat which are only a spit away from our present borders.

 

KILIKIA, some may prefer Cilicia or Giligia.

Some info will be from that book MARASH by Grigor Galustian that Boghos mentioned..

I may yet find an all inclusive map of Kilikia. In the meantime, here is what is said about the origin of the name "Kilkia".

Aside from the bullshit about its Hebrew origin of "khilkim=stones", it seems that it may be based on the Greek "kalkulus/calculous" as it was designated the "calculous/stoney" region by the Greeks.

So! What else is new? Is Yerevan province less stoney?

(Our math geeks may enlighten us about the origin of "calculus/stoneful" origin of the word).

"Kilikia" may be spelled in several ways, such as Cilicia, Giligia ets. but as Nairi mentioned in another thread the Greek "kephalo" is transliterated as "cephalo" etc. and that is where the Turkish "kafa/head" comes from..

 

Eventually we can take each and every Kilikian town and village one at a time from Aintab to Zeitun.

 

 

 

 

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Edited October 2, 2005 by Arpa

[Takoush]

Hey people!

Let's be realistic. Lest we in the process of obtaining a pair of trousers lose our vartiks too. Below what I wrote some time ago, a year ago to be precise. You will find the thread Under the topic of "Klikia".

As is even Yerevan Province is sparsely populated. Belgium the exact same size has a population of over 10 million, Taiwan, also the same size as RA, population 23 million.

How  are we going to populate those lands? I have not yet heard anyone packing their bags and move over.

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Don't worry Arpa; when our lands one by one are given back to us, I am sure that most of us WILL MOVE.

 

If you want to say it bit by bit, I'll buy that, btw., firts Ani and Ayraradian Tashd, then Nakhichevan and Erzeroum and then Sassoun. WE WANT OUR LANDS BACK!

Even if its bit by bit. Amen!

[Arpa]

Don't worry Arpa; when our lands one by one are given back to us,  I am sure that most of us WILL MOVE.

 

If you want to say it bit by bit, I'll buy that, btw., firts Ani and Ayraradian Tashd, then Nakhichevan and Erzeroum and then Sassoun.  WE WANT OUR LANDS BACK!

Even if its bit by bit.  Amen!

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Takouhi, you are using the wrong verb. It is not give, it is take. Nobody gives nobody nothing. How's that triple negative?

I may not know everything but I don't remember anybody giving anybody land in the recent or distant past.

Land can only be TAKEN.

I hate to repeat myself, and hate even more to repeat this phrase; What is lost to the sword can olny be taken back by the sword.

And if expect uncle Sam or uncle Jack or frere Jacques to do it for us remember the Wilsonian Plan.

[Takoush]

Takouhi, you are using the wrong verb. It is not give, it is take.  Nobody gives nobody nothing. How's that triple negative?

I may not know everything but I don't remember anybody giving anybody land in the recent or distant past.

Land can only be TAKEN.

I hate to repeat myself, and hate even more to repeat this phrase; What is lost to the sword can olny be taken back by the sword.

And if expect uncle Sam or uncle Jack or frere Jacques to do it for us remember the Wilsonian Plan.

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Alright, Alright, Arpa: I certainly did use the wrong term. I really meant to say take. I said it in my previous post just a little while ago that I would love to have our anscestral lands back be it one by one, even if its meant by our own blood. That's exactly what you just said, the very same thing; of course by 'sword'.

 

Maybe I'm a dreamer but remember, a dreamer is better to have than not. Because every goal and sometimes far fetched goals are dreamt and dreamt often. I ALSO HAVE A DREAM, AND MY DREAM IS ABOUT TAKING BACK MY ANSCESTRAL LANDS!

Edited October 2, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

OK Anahid,

 

Leave your baby with your mother or mother-in-law. We are going to dress you in Army fatigues and send you to the Turkish border, armed to the teeth. There, with other Armenian soldiers you will do battle with the Turkish Army and Air Force. You will have to fight with outdated Soviet armaments against the latest state-of-the-art military machinery supplied to the Turks by the US, Israel, etc. What will you gain for your martyrship? Perhaps a temporary taking of Ani and Ararat.... and how will the Turkish military respond to this? The Pan-Turkish advocates will stir up a fervor among the fanatics in Turkey so that their dream can be realized. Do you know that just last week groups in Baku called for Yerevan to be "returned" to Azerbaijan?

 

Arpa is so correct. Try to gain the trousers and lose your vardiks in the process?

 

Now I see what my great-grandfather had to deal with among his own people. There is the possible and the impossible. When there is no vision, the people perish. The possible is to mesh with a progressive Turkey in a greater EU.

Edited October 2, 2005 by phantom22

[Takoush]

OK Anahid,

 

Leave your baby with your mother or mother-in-law. We are going to dress you in Army fatigues and send you to the Turkish border, armed to the teeth. There, with other Armenian soldiers you will do battle with the Turkish Army and Air Force. You will have to fight with outdated Soviet armaments against the latest state-of-the-art military machinery supplied to the Turks by the US, Israel, etc. What will you gain for your martyrship? Perhaps a temporary taking of Ani and Ararat.... and how will the Turkish military respond to this? The Pan-Turkish advocates will stir up a fervor among the fanatics in Turkey so that their dream can be realized. Do you know that just last week groups in Baku called for Yerevan to be "returned" to Azerbaijan?

 

Arpa is so correct. Try to gain the trousers and lose your vardiks in the process?

 

Now I see what my great-grandfather had to deal with among his own people. There is the possible and the impossible. When there is no vision, the people perish. The possible is to mesh with a progressive Turkey in a greater EU.

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Phantom:

 

Here's food for thought:-

 

"Geography, someone said is destiny, and if so, the present geography of Armenia poses major challenges for its future.

 

Small and landlocked, Armenia is outflanked by Turkey to the west and Azerbaijan to the east. To the north, unreliable Georgia controls Armenia's routes to the Black Sea and Russia. To the south, thankfully, his friendly Iran. Unfortunately, the Iranian provinces just to Armenia's south contain millions of Azeris who might someday blockade Armenia by forming an autonomous pan-Turkic corridor from Turkey to Azerbaijan. That territory it included a coastline on the Black Sea.

 

To endure and prosper, Armenia must somehow break out of its geographical straightjacket by reclaiming the lands of historical Western Armenia, which as we know, lie mostly within what is called eastern Turkey.

 

That territory was the primary site of the 1915-1923 Genocide, and much of it was to be incorporated into the Armenian Republic in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres, which Turkey signed but later renounced. Perhaps four times the size of the current Republic of Armenia, the treaty territory constitutes about 15 percent of present-day Turkey. Significantly, it included a coastline on the Black Sea.

 

WHY LAND?

 

Today that coastline would provide Armenia with a direct sea route to Europe and Russia. Georgia would lose the potential to deny Armenia access to much of the outside world, and Armenia would be less vulnerable to a Turkish land blockade Armenia's economy and national security would be strengthened.

 

Eventually Armenia might develop an ocean-going navy, including submarines that could endow the country with a stealthy, survivable defense capability.

 

Present-day Armenia with its limited, rocky soil has trouble feeding itself. Regaining its well-irrigated, traditional breadbasket in Western Armenia would clearly be beneficial.

 

Recouping territory is also simple justice, restoring what Turks took from Armenians in the carnage of 1915 and by centuries of massacre, deportation, confiscation, onerous taxation, abduction, rape, and forced Islamization.

 

Says political scientist Khatchik Der Ghougassian, Turkey in 1915 "intended to redefine the geopolitical situation by eliminating Armenians from Asia Minor. Thus, a response to the Genocide must deprive Turkey of the geopolitical map it made possible by committing genocide."

 

Additionally, Turkey has come to believe that it can get away with killing huge numbers of Armenians and seizing their land. It bodes ill for Armenia's future if Turkey is not made to unlearn that lesson."

 

This Article is written By: David B. Boyajian

and is taken from The ARMENIAN online WEEKLY

 

for more on this...please see the following website:

 

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/politics001.html

 

And phantom, on the altar of martydrom for Armenia's better existence by reclaiming our anscestral lands, as well as for the utmost importance of the prosperity of today's Republic of Armenia; when I fight and die for our sacred cause one day, you'll be sure to come by to New Jersey one day and tell my daughter as to why her mother fought and died for her cause and for her beloved ARMENIA. You make sure to tell her that her mother was one of the "khents" coming to life right from the books of our grand writer Raffi, Hagop Melik Hagopian, who breathed and lived as an Armenian all her waking moments, and so she thought that it would be an honor for her anscesters to die for her kinsmen and for her "Azad yev Angagh Hayasdan". To be able to make our little Armenia of today to survive better and prosper much better.

 

Our Medzen Dickran knew very well what Armenia needed most, btw; sea to sea Armenia. We needed then and we need it now to survive.

 

Now be sure phantom, one day when destiny requires of me to do what I have to do along with many other brave 'katch' kinsmen of ours; then you pass on my legacy to my daughter and tell her such as another brother of mine telling and informing her niece.

 

But don't worry for my life as yet phantom, the article also mentions that logically of course, "Contrary to what some may think, no serious Armenian analyst has ever suggested that Armenia can march over the Turkish border next week and retake what rightfully belongs to it. Armenian land can be resettled only in the long term, perhaps decades from now.

 

The most plausible scenario is war, unfortunately, though not necessarily between Armenia and Turkey."

 

Best,

 

Anahid

Edited October 3, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Armat]

"Contrary to what some may think, no serious Armenian analyst has ever suggested that Armenia can march over the Turkish border next week and retake what rightfully belongs to it. Armenian land can be resettled only in the long term, perhaps decades from now.

 

The most plausible scenario is war, unfortunately, though not necessarily between Armenia and Turkey."

Yes and people who write those articles sure were smoking something potent.Pl. I just can't stand anymore morons who think 3mil pop. country with an army of 300 k with national budget smaller then purchasing two dunken doughnuts has a chance agaist 70million pop. coutry with arm forces exceeding that of polulation of Armenia not to mention latest military hardware.

If you are a truely a nationalist take your money and invest in Armenia so those people don't have to leave the country and become another sad diaspora statistic.

[ED]

Armat if by some miracle if you take away the ideology from Diaspora minds then there is very little bonds them together, this is very sad and resembling a blind man shooting in a dark, priorities are overlooked and even if by some miracle turkey hands out our territories in a silver platter I don’t expect people lining up to return not to mention take up arms and fight a loosing war at this point in time.

 

This kind of a mind set really amazes me and it’s somewhat dangerous. the only way Armenia can afford to settle territory issues is in a peaceful way, we have to come in terms with our reality and move forward according with time and circumstances, for the past 15 years Armenians in Diaspora as well us in motherland have been doing the right thing and approach in regards to AG, achieved lots of grounds, why cant we learn to cooperate and apply the same unity in every aspect of our national interests? I hate to see the only umbilical cord that tights us together is AG question

[Sasun]

I just can't stand anymore morons who think 3mil pop. country with an army of 300 k with national budget smaller then purchasing two dunken doughnuts has a chance agaist 70million pop. coutry with arm forces exceeding that of polulation of Armenia not to mention latest military hardware.

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Armat jan, just a small correction, the budget is more like $300 Million, with wich you can buy many more dunken doughnuts Still not enough to subdue Turkey

[Nakharar]

I remember that article. I have never read a better recepie for suicide. Those who are ready to do so, go ahead. When will we ever learn...

[Takoush]

Yes and people who write those articles sure were smoking something potent.Pl. I just can't stand anymore morons who think 3mil pop. country with an army of 300 k with national budget smaller then purchasing two dunken doughnuts has a chance agaist 70million pop. coutry with arm forces exceeding that of polulation of Armenia not to mention latest military hardware.

If you are a truely a nationalist take your money and invest in Armenia so those people don't have to leave the country and become another sad diaspora statistic.

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Armat:

 

If you followed this thread, Arpa commented me about the fact that the Armenian plateau couldn't be given to us and that nobody gives anything to anyone on a silver platter to us or anyone. Anyhow that was the jist of it. In another words, if you want to get your lands back he said, it can only be taken by sword. So on that note, I said OK I already know that and that's what I meant by sword only. Then phantom22 gave me a sarcasm about going to war and blah...blah...blah..... So I played along with his sarcasm and gave him back a story. That was it. I have no intention of going to war against nobody. I am going to college now to get a degree and I have a child, thank you very much.

 

However on another thread, when Skhara gave us the website from which I have just quoted now about the Armenian Weekly written by David Boyajian; I thought that he has some thoughts there, and I quoted part of it. Now that's the whole story. Voila.

 

 

 

P.S. We have supported some families in Armenia for several years at a time. Don't think Armat that we haven't, and that we will not continue to do so as much as we possibly can. Within our budget we do a lot more than much wealthier Armenian people that we know. This is the truth.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[skhara]

Ed,

 

Don't tell me you are too old to have a dream. Besides who says a war is fought with guns. The Armenians are in a war and have been for ages with various foes and not always with guns. Yes things should always be kept in reality, with small, achievable steps, but nothing is wrong with dreaming big.

[ED]

Shkara

 

One who does not, nor has any dreams is a dead man, and it has nothing to do with age, I'm not old, just older then you,

 

you have emphasized what I had expressed in my previous post. It is important to have a vision, a goal, and agenda and suitable to the enemy we are facing now days, look at the map and tell me if Armenia can afford a war? I don’t see how she can, what Armenia needs is economical growth and prosperity, remember Napoleon once said, "All war are won before they are fought"

[skhara]

what Armenia needs is economical growth and prosperity, remember Napoleon once said, "All war are won before they are fought"

 

On that we agree my friend. And i'm pretty sure so does the author of the article.

[Armat]

Anahid, I was just venting generally and did not have you in my mind as a recipient .