“oldest Christian Nation” Wrestles Against

[ED]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

 

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

 

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

 

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

 

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.

Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

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I would say as important as the church is/was true out our history equally if not greater is the National identity, which we can identify our selfs with besides the church. I don’t think just faith, (Christianity) alone, can be identified with Armenian, you can be a Satanist for all I care but be a devoted Armenian and serve the causes the nation calls for, another words I wouldn’t mind shaking the hand of the devil if in fact it can bring prosperity to my people.

 

 

PS. Satanism was an extreme example which I used to make my point. amen

Edited August 17, 2005 by Edward

[Djrak]

much like Jesus Christ would dine with Pharisees and teach and advice them in a humble and friendly manner.

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don't you think Christ was friendly because He loved them and NOT what they did?

the Pharisees were not from a different religion and He wasnt always friendly with them because they were hypocrites who were supposed to know the truth but have twisted it to meet their own interest and use it against God. Everything Christ did had a PURPOSE behind it.

 

"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." - Matthew 12:34

 

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44

 

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." - 1 John 3:10

 

 

If you think Christ was friendly to sinners and idolators because He was cool with everything they did then you are deceived. He loved them so that they would see the truth and turn to the only true God.

[Djrak]

I know that people have free will, I am not asking you that. My question is, do people have the right to practice whatever religion they like? Is that (morally) right to have a religion other than Christianity?

 

do they have the right? I am not the Judge

Morally? it is interresting that you used that word, that means YOU think it may not be moral, why? I never said anything about morals.

 

You said something about treason to 1.5 million people and things like that. Excuse me, but that's quite unreasonable to accuse people of treason which has no connection at all.

 

i never said anything about treason to the martyrs. i said how can you not see the faith manifested thru them and turn away? In that sense it is treason, but not in the sense that you are born Armenian and you have a duty or obligation.

 

This is another thing that falls in the category of dogma, you have a certain belief - fine, have whatever belief you wish, but be kind and don't accuse people of treason where there is none.

 

denial

 

6 million Jewish people died because of being Jewish, so does that mean now we have to practice Judaism in order not to be traitors? I don't think so. Each man picks his religion.

 

they werent killed for their faith.

 

Let it be your way of defining, however, I fail to see how you connect unselfish love with intolerance.

 

i wasnt, you asked me how is God extreme, and this was my answer to you, it had nothing to do with intolerence.

 

I am not accusing you.

 

yes you are

 

You actually said "intolerant: i agree they need our prayers". So I am wondering what you were agreeing then.

 

i agree that peole can be intolerent and that they need our prayers to become more accepting of people no matter who they are and what they've done or believe NOT accepting their acts or beliefs.

 

You are free to speak, but the problem is that you are seeing deception and lies in other religion's teachings.

 

how is that a problem? I am not forcing anything on anyone, people are free.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like if something does not correspond to your beliefs you call it deception.

 

no, if something is wrong according to the truth i've known then i call it deception.

 

That does not sound right.

 

hmm... then maybe you need to see why i see it as deception to understand where i'm coming from.

 

A while back Christianity was new in Armenia, with the same attitude one could conclude that Apostles and Christian preachers were also deceiving.

 

but the Apostles werent giving intellectual lectures convincing people of theories and principles, they were spreading the truth revealed to them and people who believed did not do it with their own mental effort but thru faith (not blind faith) the truth was revealed to them that is why thousands came to Christ in one day. it is revelation not mental effort, it is trust in God and repentance not national interrest and politics and armenian cause, soul not mind, eternal not temporary, life not death.

 

So can you tell me what are the lies and deceptions you are talking about?

 

that truth exists outside of Christ

 

That's a matter of personal belief, freedom of religion allows one to have any belief, and one cannot conclude any deception or lie from whatever other religious folks would preach just from the content of the preaching.

 

i agree, you are free to beleive anything you want, but when you recognze that you can never get to the truth by your means and put all your hope and trust in God then He'll reveal it to you. and discerning the truth comes later.

 

Do you think you have no dogmas?

 

i do, but faith came first, dogmas just shape it and keep it authentic (the authentic dogmas, not the fake or distorted ones)

 

Edit: fixed the quotes, board program does not allow more than 10 quotes

Edited August 17, 2005 by Sasun

[Djrak]

Only reason, no, main reason, yes. Again, I was making a general point.

 

if that was the main reason then it was in vain, i think the main reason was faith, a lot of people could've converted to Islam and saved themselves and later convert back to Christianity. But a true Christian would never do that.

 

In short, I attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, I help serve on the Alter, I share the Gospel, and I pray for people. I also am an amateur apologist, I have written articles in other forums where the Armenian Church has been attacked, in a theological, historical and doctrinal context. When I was younger, I was a Sunday school teacher, a camp counselor, and a youth group board member.

 

How about you?

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well i am a follower of Christ before being anything else, i attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, i am a youth group board member and an amateur apologist.

many things in common huh?

[Djrak]

the Armenian Church in Doctrinal and Theological grounds is perfect.

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Amen!

[Sasun]

do they have the right? I am not the Judge

Morally? it is interresting that you used that word, that means YOU think it may not be moral, why? I never said anything about morals.

No, I do not think that practicing other religions or any other Christian paths is wrong, morally or legally. I have no complaints about other religions, I don't mind their existence in Armenia or elsewhere. My first response to you was precisely because you were judging other religious groups. You said:

"and they foget the church founded by the Apostles of Christ, and they forget the faith of 1,5 million martyrs not to mention all the others throughout our history, and they rebel against our Church deceived by opportunist western cults. Lord have mercy. "

You are accusing them of rebellion and deception, all on theological grounds. There is nothing factual in what you say, it is all a matter of having a different faith and theology. Imagine if somebody accused you of rebellion and deception because they conclude so from their adopted theology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a Jehovah's witness who thinks he is faithfully practicing his religion and has faith in God just like you do, then imagine somebody is accusing you of deception and rebellion.

i never said anything about treason to the martyrs. i said how can you not see the faith manifested thru them and turn away? In that sense it is treason, but not in the sense that you are born Armenian and you have a duty or obligation.

Faith can be manifested in many ways and many religions. I see no treason really in any sense.

denial

I don't know what you mean.

i agree that peole can be intolerent and that they need our prayers to become more accepting of people no matter who they are and what they've done or believe NOT accepting their acts or beliefs.

Fine, intolerant people need our prayers. But the question here is that some followers of the Armenian Apostolic church are not quite tolerant of religious minorities in Armenia, instead of offering prayers they are offerring harsh criticism and accuse them of things that they have not actually committed. For example, Jehovah's witnesses and other minorities are accused of being foreign agents with a covert agenda against the interests of Armenians.

how is that a problem? I am not forcing anything on anyone, people are free.

It's a problem because it is a cause of sectarian conflicts and separation.

no, if something is wrong according to the truth i've known then i call it deception.

But do you know the truth?

hmm... then maybe you need to see why i see it as deception to understand where i'm coming from.

Oftentimes the same thing is called by different names. Other religions see the truth in Christ but they call it a different name. Before Jesus the person was born truth existed and was exactly the same as it has always been. Therefore, truth can be found not only in the person of Jesus, but in the Christhood that he realized and revealed to the humanity. That same Christhood has been revealed by other prophets in other religions. Therefore, one can approach the truth by practicing paths other than Christianity. The differences are only superficial, in essence all true religions (excluding man made artificial religions) have the same truths. In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

Edited August 17, 2005 by Sasun

[Sasun]

don't you think Christ was friendly because He loved them and NOT what they did?

Yes, definitely. Nothing prevents us to do the same as regards to others, in this particular case, you can say look this guy did this bad thing, I do not approve of it, it is evil, etc... but what is happening is religious minorities are not accepted as a normal part of a society, not because they did something wrong as a whole, but because of prejudice and bigotry. If some members of the path did something wrong factually then they can be blamed just like anyone else, but not their particular path of faith. For example, if some Catholic priests did wrong things then they get blamed individually, not the Catholic church as a whole.

If you think Christ was friendly to sinners and idolators because He was cool with everything they did then you are deceived. He loved them so that they would see the truth and turn to the only true God.

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I did not say that Christ was cool with everything. He would teach and preach but also forgive those even who killed him. Whatever he did was for the good of the sinner, sometimes kind words will lead to repentance and sometimes criticism. This way of correction depends on the individual, it depends on what the individual said or did, but not what path he belongs to.

Edited August 17, 2005 by Sasun

[Ludwig9]

No, I do not think that practicing other religions or any other Christian paths is wrong, morally or legally.

 

Your answers are self defeating, if it is a part of a persons religion (actual teachings) to kill people who don’t accept or convert to a specific religion then that religion is wrong which I am sure you will agree. Additionally, Christ states that He is the Way, not ways, there is only one Path. Again, people will read the bible and give it there own spin on it but if there own spins contradicts the teachings of historical Christianity then technically it cannot be defined as Christian.

 

I have no complaints about other religions, I don't mind their existence in Armenia or elsewhere. My first response to you was precisely because you were judging other religious groups.

 

You are accusing them of rebellion and deception, all on theological grounds. There is nothing factual in what you say, it is all a matter of having a different faith and theology. Imagine if somebody accused you of rebellion and deception because they conclude so from their adopted theology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a Jehovah's witness who thinks he is faithfully practicing his religion and has faith in God just like you do, then imagine somebody is accusing you of deception and rebellion.

 

There is a list of factual reasons of what Djark is saying. Please exercise your tolerance from your religion for other people to express the misconceptions and deviations that is regarding Christ. After all, Christianity is based on Christ, not other religions.

[Sasun]

Your answers are self defeating, if it is a part of a persons religion (actual teachings) to kill people who don’t accept or convert to a specific religion then that religion is wrong which I am sure you will agree.

And what religion would that be? Again, I am talking about bona fide religions, not some obscure groups, please don't imply that I am defending wrong religions. The question here concerns the groups mentioned in the original article, none of which is about killing people.

Additionally, Christ states that He is the Way, not ways, there is only one Path. Again, people will read the bible and give it there own spin on it but if there own spins contradicts the teachings of historical Christianity then technically it cannot be defined as Christian.

So can't I say that you are misinterpreting the Bible and my way of understanding is the original Christianity and not yours?

There is a list of factual reasons of what Djark is saying.

Let me see that list.

Please exercise your tolerance from your religion for other people to express the misconceptions and deviations that is regarding Christ. After all, Christianity is based on Christ, not other religions.

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In my opinion your doctrines are far away from the Christ, therefore I don't think you know Christ and can tell what deviation could mean. However, I leave it entirely up to you, it is none of my business what doctrines you have. I tolerate your views and you. It is not me that is intolerant.

[Djrak]

It's a problem because it is a cause of sectarian conflicts and separation.

But do you know the truth?

The truth is in Christ. And being in Christ means having a close personal relationship with Him and following His commandments. The truth is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit just as it is to every Christian, not because of any effort to understand it by my human brain. Outside of Christ there is no truth. It is not a sectarian or denominational thing, It might seem that way because the body of Christ (the Church) has to live together and form a society and institutionalizing and organizing this life is necessary and efficient for its growth. Now if vice exists within it (and it does) then you will see negaive outcome and judge the essence to be false. But that (sectarianism or intolerence) never was the purpose, the purpose was and is and should be the building of His Kingdom.

 

Oftentimes the same thing is called by different names. Other religions see the truth in Christ but they call it a different name. Before Jesus the person was born truth existed and was exactly the same as it has always been.

do they? (see the truth in Christ)

Before Jesus was born there was no salvation for men.

Therefore, truth can be found not only in the person of Jesus, but in the Christhood that he realized and revealed to the humanity. That same Christhood has been revealed by other prophets in other religions. Therefore, one can approach the truth by practicing paths other than Christianity. The differences are only superficial, in essence all true religions (excluding man made artificial religions) have the same truths. In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

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outside of Jesus Christ (God incarnate, crucified and resurrected) there is no truth and no salvation. This i tell you because I know it deep in my bones not because of what i've been told or taught. He is a living God and He reveals Himself to us.

[Nakharar]

In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

 

This doesn't make sense at all. So you say it is the message that is more important than the messenger?

[Djrak]

And what religion would that be? Again, I am talking about bona fide religions, not some obscure groups, please don't imply that I am defending wrong religions. The question here concerns the groups mentioned in the original article, none of which is about killing people.

so if it is not about killing people (physically) it is a bonafide religion?

so if you do not do evil neither good you arent evil?

so if you do not kill physically you couldnt kill spiritually?

which is more important body or spirit?

which is eternal body or spirit?

 

So can't I say that you are misinterpreting the Bible and my way of understanding is the original Christianity and not yours?

you can say it and many do say it, but to find that rest is the only reassurance you can have (it is like finding a gold mine)

 

Let me see that list.

what is it exactly that we are talking about? List of what?

 

In my opinion your doctrines are far away from the Christ, therefore I don't think you know Christ and can tell what deviation could mean. However, I leave it entirely up to you, it is none of my business what doctrines you have. I tolerate your views and you. It is not me that is intolerant.

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but your opinion is not necessarily the truth, is it? Neither is mine, unless my opinion is not based on what i "think" but on THE one and only alive and everlasting truth.

[Sasun]

The truth is in Christ. And being in Christ means having a close personal relationship with Him and following His commandments. The truth is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit just as it is to every Christian, not because of any effort to understand it by my human brain. Outside of Christ there is no truth. It is not a sectarian or denominational thing, It might seem that way because the body of Christ (the Church) has to live together and form a society and institutionalizing and organizing this life is necessary and efficient for its growth. Now if vice exists within it (and it does) then you will see negaive outcome and judge the essence to be false. But that (sectarianism or intolerence) never was the purpose, the purpose was and is and should be the building of His Kingdom.

do they? (see the truth in Christ)

Before Jesus was born there was no salvation for men.

I really don't want to get into theological debates, I am perfectly fine with what you believe in, it is up to you. I can't say that I disagree entirely, but I disagree with you on several fundamental things.

outside of Jesus Christ (God incarnate, crucified and resurrected) there is no truth and no salvation. This i tell you because I know it deep in my bones not because of what i've been told or taught. He is a living God and He reveals Himself to us.

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You say so, and I could use the same words and say you know, there are other prophets that are like Jesus Christ and they manifest the same thing as Jesus Christ did. So basically I disagree, Jesus Christ and his path is a sure way of salvation, but not the only way. Before Jesus Christ there were other paths which still exist and also lead to salvation. I will leave it at that, because obviously you don't believe in that, just do your best to achieve the truth. And just a reminder, it doesn't matter how well you know theologies, how often you go to a church, and how eagerly you practice religious ceremonies. If you fail to practice righeousness, tolerance and forgiveness nothing will bribe God to give you a favor.

[Sasun]

so if it is not about killing people (physically) it is a bonafide religion?

so if you do not do evil neither good you arent evil?

so if you do not kill physically you couldnt kill spiritually?

which is more important body or spirit?

which is eternal body or spirit?

I really don't know what you have in mind, but it doesn't matter. You are judging unspecified religions for not quite specific things, I find it hard to answer in any way. When your time comes you will be asked a question why you were judging, and if you are falsely accusing then it is a clear sin and you will have to have an answer for that.

you can say it and many do say it, but to find that rest is the only reassurance you can have (it is like finding a gold mine)

If by rest you mean inner peace then I agree. I will add that I find inner peace not only in Jesus Christ's path and teachings but also other paths and prophets.

what is it exactly that we are talking about? List of what?

You better ask Ludwig, he said you have a list of wrongdoings or crimes by religious minorities (which you obviously don't have) and I wanted to see that list.

but your opinion is not necessarily the truth, is it? Neither is mine, unless my opinion is not based on what i "think" but on THE one and only alive and everlasting truth.

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I don't know the truth, I only know pieces and glimpses of it and I try to form my opinions on the everlasting truth to the best of my ability. It seems that we are in the same boat more or less, however I don't judge your religion, while you judge all religions except for yours.

[Sasun]

This doesn't make sense at all. So you say it is the message that is more important than the messenger?

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Not exactly. What I mean is, to put it in simple words for simplicity's sake, Christhood is a state of consciousness that everyone can potentially achieve if following a right spiritual path. It is basically merit based, Jesus Christ had earned it by sacrifice and intense spiritual practice, plus by God's Grace. If you get acquainted with the teachings of other spiritual masters you will realize that indeed there are other Christ-like figures. Not because they claim to be so, but because you just feel it. If you have a feeling that Jesus was divine then you will have the same feeling for other masters, because they have the same essense though differences outwardly. These other masters are like brothers to Jesus, they have all lived, worked and died for the salvation of the humanity, before and after Jesus. Now Jesus Christ's mission was really grand, other masters maybe less known because they had smaller missions, but nevertheless they are also saviors and are essentially the same as Christ. Yet there are also individuals who have achieved the Christ consciousness but have no outward mission like Jesus. But no matter what, the Christ consiousness is unique as is the Holy Trinity, there is just one Father(God), one Son(Christ consciousness) and one Holy Ghost (Amen).

 

Hope this brief explanation clarifies what I meant.

[Ludwig9]

No, I do not think that practicing other religions or any other Christian paths is wrong, morally or legally. I have no complaints about other religions, I don't mind their existence in Armenia or elsewhere.

 

And what religion would that be? Again, I am talking about bona fide religions, not some obscure groups, please don't imply that I am defending wrong religions. The question here concerns the groups mentioned in the original article, none of which is about killing people.

 

Again, your answer is self defeating; in a previous post you stated ANY Christian and OTHER religions. Now, you’re stating bona fide religions and obscure groups and that you are not defending wrong religions. What gives you the authority, be that you preach a tolerant religion, to state what is a bona fide religion and a wrong religion when originally you stated that you have “no complaints” about other religions, being whatever they may be, in Armenia.

 

So can't I say that you are misinterpreting the Bible and my way of understanding is the original Christianity and not yours?

 

You can say whatever you like, and you are, but that doesn’t mean that you are right.

 

In my opinion your doctrines are far away from the Christ, therefore I don't think you know Christ and can tell what deviation could mean. However, I leave it entirely up to you, it is none of my business what doctrines you have. I tolerate your views and you. It is not me that is intolerant.

 

My doctrines are not “my” doctrines; they are the doctrines of the historical churches which has existed for over 2000 years. Now, that being said, if you think you know better than 2000 years of history, better than the Apostles, Saints, and the Church Fathers, better than millions of people who have spent their entire lifetime study Scripture and Tradition for the last 2000 years, and to state the you know better than all that I have listed above, I would consider your comments, not only wrong, but egotistical and delusional.

[Arpa]

Amen!

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Barev Djrak ev bari galust.

You shed a dim djark/lamp on our identity.

 

Have you ever considered moving your pulpit to another forum, such as Ankara or Baku?

Are you not selling (rotten) tomatoes to the farmer?

You may not have known this but some of us have heard that message long before you were born.

Do you have a message ? Then please take it to Ankara and Baku, (do you dare?) and stop telling us what a Christian ought to be. We have been Christians longer than you can remember, we have lived the Christian life with all its glory and disasters, now it may be time to move the message to those who have not heard it.

 

What do you say!!

 

Read the Bible and tell us what the message is.

 

I’ll tell you what is not; Selling rotten tomatoes to the farmer itself.

Please find new markets.

 

 

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx...&size=First+100

 

Matt.5

[15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house

 

 

Մատթեոս5;15

Ու ճրագը չեն վառեր եւ դներ գրուանի տակ…..

[Sasun]

Again, your answer is self defeating; in a previous post you stated ANY Christian and OTHER religions. Now, you’re stating bona fide religions and obscure groups and that you are not defending wrong religions. What gives you the authority, be that you preach a tolerant religion, to state what is a bona fide religion and a wrong religion when originally you stated that you have “no complaints” about other religions, being whatever they may be, in Armenia.

I think it is simpler than that. We are talking about specific religions, but you try to bring hypothetical cases like a religion killing people. A group may start worshipping their shoes and call that a religion. Therefore, I wish to exclude such made up "religions", and that is why I say "bona fide". For example, a suicidal teaching cannot be a religion, but a lot of people may call it a religion. When I say all religions I exclude such things, but then you will might say, what about this suicidal group? Then I have to say, all bona fide or true religions to exclude such things. Does this clarify?

You can say whatever you like, and you are, but that doesn’t mean that you are right.

Exactly my point, in that case why is your word more important than mine? Why is your word more important than the word of a Jehovah's witness?

My doctrines are not “my” doctrines; they are the doctrines of the historical churches which has existed for over 2000 years. Now, that being said, if you think you know better than 2000 years of history, better than the Apostles, Saints, and the Church Fathers, better than millions of people who have spent their entire lifetime study Scripture and Tradition for the last 2000 years, and to state the you know better than all that I have listed above, I would consider your comments, not only wrong, but egotistical and delusional.

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Oh, so how long can you last before resorting to personal attacks? Here is a test for your Christianity, try to discuss with patience and decency and give and example of true Christian brotherhood. It is very easy for me to say that your comments are delusion or what not. But such a debate leads nowhwere, so I suggest you revise your attitude. I am sure you won't impress God with your knowledge of doctrines, believe or not. Even if your doctrines were invented 10000 years ago they could be wrong. On the other hand, different churches have conflicting doctrines, and they all maybe more than 1000 years old. So age does not really matter.

By the way, Apostles and Saints were not wrong, it was church fathers who were wrong. They were the ones that came up with doctrines and arbitrarily banned a lot of books. Why would they consider Jesus's disciple Thomas's book wrong and exclude from canon?

Having a doctrine does not hurt others, but what they did was very damaging because they acted based on their doctrines. Jesus Christ didn't leave any of those doctrines, they were made by later individuals who made churches and doctrines according to their limited understanding and political considerations. Then it got even worse, sectarian conflicts, inquisitions and all sorts of sins followed - all based on doctrines made by themselves, but done in the name of God.

 

Doctrines cannot be considered proper teachings of Jesus Christ

[Djrak]

You say so, and I could use the same words and say you know, there are other prophets that are like Jesus Christ and they manifest the same thing as Jesus Christ did. So basically I disagree, Jesus Christ and his path is a sure way of salvation, but not the only way. Before Jesus Christ there were other paths which still exist and also lead to salvation. I will leave it at that, because obviously you don't believe in that, just do your best to achieve the truth. And just a reminder, it doesn't matter how well you know theologies, how often you go to a church, and how eagerly you practice religious ceremonies. If you fail to practice righeousness, tolerance and forgiveness nothing will bribe God to give you a favor.

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you still don't get it, theology and ideas come after faith faith is not based on theology but it starts the other way around.

You are accusing me of judging when i'm talking the truth.

For your information i have many muslim friends, and i love them all equally and i dont judge them i share my faith with them and i pray for them and they never once accused me of judging.

[Djrak]

Not exactly. What I mean is, to put it in simple words for simplicity's sake, Christhood is a state of consciousness that everyone can potentially achieve if following a right spiritual path. It is basically merit based, Jesus Christ had earned it by sacrifice and intense spiritual practice, plus by God's Grace. If you get acquainted with the teachings of other spiritual masters you will realize that indeed there are other Christ-like figures. Not because they claim to be so, but because you just feel it. If you have a feeling that Jesus was divine then you will have the same feeling for other masters, because they have the same essense though differences outwardly. These other masters are like brothers to Jesus, they have all lived, worked and died for the salvation of the humanity, before and after Jesus. Now Jesus Christ's mission was really grand, other masters maybe less known because they had smaller missions, but nevertheless they are also saviors and are essentially the same as Christ. Yet there are also individuals who have achieved the Christ consciousness but have no outward mission like Jesus. But no matter what, the Christ consiousness is unique as is the Holy Trinity, there is just one Father(God), one Son(Christ consciousness) and one Holy Ghost (Amen).

 

Hope this brief explanation clarifies what I meant.

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What you just wrote here is a heresy. It is not the gospel. Do you believe that Jesus was the Christ? That He is God? You speak as if Jesus was a prophet or a man who earned God's approval. This is NOT what Christianity is about. It is not mere consiousness or a state of the mind.

If you dont KNOW that God became man, and that he carried our burden and lived a life without sin and died on the cross and was resurrected to grant us everlasting life then you are not a Christian yet.

If you think you can exercise yourself thru meditation and reading and other means to acheive a "peace" or "state" you call "christ-consiousness" you are deceived those are all lies and in time will fail. We are called to be Holy just as our Father who calls us is Holy if you don't know the father then how can you go to him and who knows the father, only he who came from Him and is in Him as the Father is in Him-> The Son and once you accept this then you abide in Him and the Holy Spirit gives you life, peace and understanding. One God head 3 persons. That's the Holy Trinity.

[Djrak]

Barev Djrak ev bari galust.

Parev

You shed a dim djark/lamp on our identity.

i did?

 

Have you ever considered moving your pulpit to another forum, such as Ankara or Baku?

sure, why not, give me a link, is that what you do?

Are you not selling (rotten) tomatoes to the farmer?

You may not have known this but some of us have heard that message long before you were born.

am i? I'm sure some of you have.

 

Do you have a message ? Then please take it to Ankara and Baku, (do you dare?)

do i dare? Yes. i am not ashamed of my God, but i dont go "selling tomatoes "either.

and stop telling us what a Christian ought to be. We have been Christians longer than you can remember, we have lived the Christian life with all its glory and disasters, now it may be time to move the message to those who have not heard it.

who's "we"?

 

What do you say!!

 

Read the Bible and tell us what the message is.

 

I’ll tell you what is not; Selling rotten tomatoes to the farmer itself.

Please find new markets.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx...&size=First+100

 

Matt.5

[15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house

Մատթեոս5;15

Ու ճրագը չեն վառեր եւ դներ գրուանի տակ…..

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i am not afraid of speaking it anywhere, and if you are telling me everyone on this board know the gospel, maybe you should think twice. And i am not trying to do anything, only speaking the truthi have known.

I am not looking for a market, But you obviously are offended.

What is your problem? What are YOU saying?

Edited August 19, 2005 by Djrak

[armjan]

Hi Sasun,

A group may start worshipping their shoes and call that a religion. Therefore, I wish to exclude such made up "religions", and that is why I say "bona fide". For example, a suicidal teaching cannot be a religion, but a lot of people may call it a religion. When I say all religions I exclude such things, but then you will might say, what about this suicidal group? Then I have to say, all bona fide or true religions to exclude such things.

who decides what a bona fide religion is? Unfortanetely, you will only be with us for the next 100 yrs or so, what then. Who do we elect to define "bona fide" religion.

my take on it is...a religion is a religion as it's believers/followers define it as. Like it or not, it is what they say it is. As soon as you start thinking about if it should qualify as a religion or not, then a fair amount of personal biases will be used in the decision making process. Remember, this is the same thing your asking Djrak not to do.

 

 

Exactly my point, in that case why is your word more important than mine? Why is your word more important than the word of a Jehovah's witness?

Importance is subjective. It all depends who you ask. What is important to him may or maynot be important to you!

 

Even if your doctrines were invented 10000 years ago they could be wrong. On the other hand, different churches have conflicting doctrines, and they all maybe more than 1000 years old. So age does not really matter.

as with most events in history, order(age) does matter.

current state = past state + transition or

future state = current state + transition

what has ensued is a shameless power struggle that humans have perfected over ages.

 

By the way, Apostles and Saints were not wrong, it was church fathers who were wrong. They were the ones that came up with doctrines and arbitrarily banned a lot of books. Why would they consider Jesus's disciple Thomas's book wrong and exclude from canon?

Remember that different authors have different intentions. None of us may conclusively conclude what the intentions of these writers were. We can only infer thru consistency(gospels). Incoherent material as we know today is considered highly circumstantial and may have been fabricated to empower rivaling philosophies. Remember, a sh!t load of jews started disagreeing, what came next is documented pretty well and thrown at every christians face as a consequence of Christ himself.

 

 

Who opened this can of worms anyway...

Edited August 19, 2005 by armjan

[Djrak]

By the way, Apostles and Saints were not wrong, it was church fathers who were wrong.

many of the church fathers were saints so were all the Apostles, there was no conflict or major dispute whithin the One Holy Universal Apostolic Church until the council of Chalcedon.

They were the ones that came up with doctrines and arbitrarily banned a lot of books. Why would they consider Jesus's disciple Thomas's book wrong and exclude from canon?

what is excluded from the canon is not considered wrong but it is not scripture. You shouldnt be worried about such things, have you read the gospel of Thomas? What is it exactly that you find essntial in it?

Having a doctrine does not hurt others, but what they did was very damaging because they acted based on their doctrines. Jesus Christ didn't leave any of those doctrines, they were made by later individuals who made churches and doctrines according to their limited understanding and political considerations.

there is a lot of truth in what you are saying but it isnt the complete truth of the matter. Jesus' commandment was to love your God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love yur brother as yourself. Those commandments do not exclude the law, the prophets and doctrines of the Church, in fact they are a summary of them. So if you take a few doctrines and try to follow thm without having Christ as the base you are heading for destruction (parable of the man who build his house on sand and the one who build it on the rock with deep foundations and the storm didnt affect it). 2 can follow the same doctrines but one can be a true son and the other a free lancer, one can worship God with the spirit and another with his lips.

Then it got even worse, sectarian conflicts, inquisitions and all sorts of sins followed - all based on doctrines made by themselves, but done in the name of God.

that is the sad truth of the fallen world and how the devil entered the Church and seperated and corrupted it. But those who stay faithful till the end will inherit the kingdom, that is His promise and God doesnt lie.

Doctrines cannot be considered proper teachings of Jesus Christ

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"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." - 1 Tim 1:8-11

 

"You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance." - Titus 2:1

 

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. " - 2 Tim 4:1-5

 

 

why do you think the Apostle paul gave so much importance to doctrine?

[armjan]

Not exactly. What I mean is, to put it in simple words for simplicity's sake, Christhood is a state of consciousness that everyone can potentially achieve if following a right spiritual path. It is basically merit based, Jesus Christ had earned it by sacrifice and intense spiritual practice, plus by God's Grace. If you get acquainted with the teachings of other spiritual masters you will realize that indeed there are other Christ-like figures. Not because they claim to be so, but because you just feel it. If you have a feeling that Jesus was divine then you will have the same feeling for other masters, because they have the same essense though differences outwardly. These other masters are like brothers to Jesus, they have all lived, worked and died for the salvation of the humanity, before and after Jesus. Now Jesus Christ's mission was really grand, other masters maybe less known because they had smaller missions, but nevertheless they are also saviors and are essentially the same as Christ. Yet there are also individuals who have achieved the Christ consciousness but have no outward mission like Jesus. But no matter what, the Christ consiousness is unique as is the Holy Trinity, there is just one Father(God), one Son(Christ consciousness) and one Holy Ghost (Amen).

 

Hope this brief explanation clarifies what I meant.

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Yes it clarifies what you meant, but I don't think that it's consistent with our Christian philosophy.

Mainly 3 things...

-Man can only attain salvation at best

-The Holy Trinity means different things to different christians. But the one thing that it doesn't mean is transitivity.

-Christ identified himself as the one and only, such that there is no equivalent among us.

Edited August 19, 2005 by armjan

[Arpa]

Parev 

 

i did?

sure, why not, give me a link, is that what you do?

 

am i? I'm sure some of you have.

do i dare? Yes. i am not ashamed of my God, but i dont go "selling tomatoes "either.

====

 

who's "we"?

=

What is your problem? What are YOU saying?

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Yes , you are selling rotten tomatoes.

Who is we?

We is I!

What is my problem?

My problem is people like you.

What am I saying?

I am saying; Get the hell out of here and if you have big enough balls take your pulpit to Ankara. And, please don't call us when they cut your balls before they shoot/hang you.

What a bunch of cowards! Preaching to already entrenched Christians as they don't have the courage to preach to the intransigent and vicious and murderous infidel.

Do you dare preach your Gospel in downtown Ankara? How many lives do you have?

And, it is .. like you who corrupt our faith by declaring Jesus as God. Have you noticed how Islam is speading like wildfire? Is it beacuse they don't have such mythological garbage as Jesus/Mohamed being God, Trinity, Resurrection and a bunch of other nonsense.

 

Do you know that the idea of Trinity is from the Greek Mythology, i.e a father god, a mother god and son god, and the idea of resurrection is from Egyptian mythology?

You would do us and yourself a lot of good reading those mythologies.

 

How does Jesus become a lesser messenger of good tidings if he were not god?

How does his message become less humane and loving if he were not God?

 

No wonder we are in such dire straits with .. telling us what our religion is.

 

 

..

Edited August 19, 2005 by MosJan