Srebrenica Massacre

[Dave]

'People Focus on Armenian Issue, Ignore Srebrenica Massacre'

By Foreign News Desk

Published: Monday July 11, 2005

zaman.com

 

 

The commemoration ceremonies for the 10th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre open the wounds of people who witnessed the bloodbath. In the Srebrenica carnage, 8,000 Muslim Bosnians were massacred towards the end of Bosnian War in Srebrenica, under the United Nations (UN) protection.

 

A cover page article titled "Witnesses Tell about Srebrenica Genocide on Its 10th Anniversary" published in the Aksiyon weekly news magazine relates accounts by those who witnessed the butchery. The massacre, which took place before the eyes of Dutch soldiers who were commissioned in the UN Peace Force, is told related by eyewitnesses as follows:

 

Bosnia Herzegovina Losses Commission President Amur Marsovic: 27.734 citizens were lost during the war. Ninety-two percent of them were Bosnians, 6 percent Bosnian Serbs and 1.7 percent Bosnian Croatians. A Macedonian Turkish citizen, Saban Huseyinov was also among the victims. Thirteen percent of the fatalities are women. Ninety percent of the victims were civilians. The data shows that it was a planned annihilation. We discovered 366 mass graves.

 

'Bones belonging to one person can be found in three different mass graves'

 

All the graves are in the Serbian region. We have found the corpses of 20 thousand citizens so far by deduction. I say 'by deduction', because a corpse belonging to a single person was pieced together from three different graves in a 30-kilometer radius of each other. In addition, we encountered corpses, which had changed places few times. We found bones cut to pieces by heavy construction equipment. Even the Nazis were not so brutal. The Western world wants to ignore the massacre and not accept responsibility for it. This is what hurts us most. If we must live together again, they should accept this. They pressure Turkey to accept the Armenian genocide but the parliamentarians themselves to not discuss this. Political decisions are taken, but Srebrenica massacre occurred ten years ago and all of its witnesses are here. They want to burry Srebrenica into history and cover it up.

 

Srebrenica Massacre architect remains in office

 

Hasan Nuhanovich translates for the Dutch soldiers, "The Serbs occupied the villages near the city and bombarded them. Despite the occurrence of these incidents, United Nations (UN) commanders said, "Do not worry, you are under our protection until a political solution is found. If the Serbs attack, we will bomb them by planes." The Serbs attacked the city from four different directions on July 6. The Dutch troops did not shoot even a single bullet. They collected the Bosnians together who wanted to defense themselves and seized their weapons already less in number. The biggest massacre occurred from 11-12 July 1995. Serb soldiers occupying the city separated the men from the women. They killed some of the men at point blank and took others to the forest. The Dutch soldiers watched the incidents and some of them even helped the Serbs. They took about 5,000 Bosnians including my brother out of the concentration camp on July 13 and killed men in full view of the others. I lost both my father and mother at the same time. The biggest injustice the Dutch soldiers did to the Bosnians was keeping the developments secret. The world did not learn about what was going on here for a long time. Mane Curic, the Srebrenica police chief chose people to be killed in front of the UN troops. He is still the security chief in Srebrenica. Neither the European Union (EU) nor the US has done anything on the issue. Despite knowing Mladic's whereabouts, US soldiers have not apprehended him.

 

Nura Alispahic: When I turned on the television to watch the news last month, I saw my little son for whom I have cried for during the past 10 years. These were the first images of the Srebrenica massacre broadcast by The Hague. My son had lost a lot of weight. The Serbs took them out of a car. Then, they executed four of them by shooting them. I saw my son later. When they killed the person next to him, my son returned to view. He looked as if he was asking for help. I rushed to the television from where I sat and fainted at the second step. They shot my son. I saw him for the last time when the Serbs entered the city. Thousands of Bosnians like us had taken shelter in a factory where the Dutch soldiers had camped. The soldiers handed us over to the Serbs. My son was looking for an escape exit from the forest to flee the impending execution. I cannot forget the moment I embraced him for the last time.

 

Nura Alispahic's daughter Makbule: The Serbs planned everything in advance. The UN soldiers silences us. While we were awaiting death, they were amusing each other. Even the drivers of the buses bringing us to Tuzla were Serbs. When the Chetniks stopped the buses on the road, the drivers opened the doors and said to them, "Take whichever one you like!"

 

Vice President of Srebrenica Mothers Foundation Kada Hotic: "I lost my husband, children and many of my relatives on July 11. The bones of my husband and his relatives were found in a mass grave recently; but still there is no news of my children. I do not think that there will be fair trials at the War Crimes Trial in Lahey. Will the Western World, which condoned the war crimes during the war, find the criminals and judge them? No! Everything we experienced is so transparent; but we cannot find any addressee to apply. No Western foundation wants to accept the events we experienced, as genocide. 1042 children are still lost. 570 girls were violated and killed. They executed men by shooting them in front of my eyes. They killed a little child, who was crying out of fear of being executed by snatching him from his mother's arms. There are thousands of eyewitnesses to these events; but no one listens to them.

 

Elvisa Lokman: When the war started, my childhood ended.

 

My father was never with me when I needed him most. I will never forget how the Serbs decapitated Akif and played football with his head. I thought my childhood would be returned to me after Srebrenica was made secure. I will never forgive myself for not embracing and kissing my father. I did not want to believe that it would be the last time I saw him. But, I never saw him again. Today, I am still afraid of the dark. I jump out of bed screaming at the slightest sound in the house.

 

Our Serbian neighbor was shouting: Kill for me too

 

From the Srebrenica memoir of Sevliya Feyzic: Early in the morning, we all went to the factory where the UN troops were camped. We were 15,000 people in and around the factory. The UN soldiers did nothing. The Serbs raped young girls. Some men were shot before the factory. On July 12, in the morning, trucks and buses arrived. Among the Serb soldiers, I saw two of my neighbors, Zlatan and Cvetin. They were shouting as they kicked us. The bus driven by the Serbs headed towards Bratunats. On the road, there were Chetniks who stopped the buses, chose some men and shot them. Our neighbor Milan Micic driving the car opened the door and shouted, "Kill for me too". The Serbs got down and raped young girls among who was my aunt's daughter.

 

The Bosnian Major of Srebrenica: Before the war, the population of Srebrenica was 36,000, of which 20,000 was Bosnian, 8,000 Serb, and the remaining part consisted of Croats and other ethnic groups. Only 3,000 Bosnians could return to the city. There are currently 10,000 people living in the city 6,000 of whom are Serb.

 

 

Today, the 'Srebrenica massacre' topic made it in thie first page of google news, yet this Turk complains that Srebrenica massacre is ignored? Is he blind?

 

Remind you, the 'Armenian genocide commemoration' topic made it in the bottom of newspapers...

[gamavor]

Today, the 'Srebrenica massacre' topic made it in thie first page of google news, yet this Turk complains that Srebrenica massacre is ignored? Is he blind?

 

Remind you, the 'Armenian genocide commemoration' topic made it in the bottom of newspapers...

 

Not only that but the bastard Brits held commemorative 1 minute silence in their so-called Parliament in memory of Srebrenica and the recent London incident.

 

When the time came to commemorate AG they were commemorating their humiliation by the Turks.

 

BTW, I found a lost (commemorative) bottle of Dom Perignon in my fridge!

 

 

Cheers!

[shaunt]

Long live the Serbs! Getzo Srberin!

[skhara]

'People Focus on Armenian Issue, Ignore Srebrenica Massacre'

 

I don't ingnore the frame job.

[Verginne]

They should ignore it because all it is is muslim and jewish LIES. Never happened and there's tons of evidence it never happened. It's just like the turks who committed Genocide on Armenians, then accused Armenians of killing turks. These people NEVER change, always the same MO. I wanted to tell those idiots open up those coffins, I bet they're all empty. Most of those so-called victims are fighting in Iraq.

 

 

Evidence that the Supposed Srebrenica Execution Video is a Lie

Part 1 - What I'll prove and how I'll prove it.

 

by Jared Israel

EmperorТs Clothes

 

[24 June 2005]

 

========================================================

 

[ www.tenc.net ]

 

This month quite a few people have written or called concerning EmperorТs Clothes articles refuting the official line on Bosnia. They want to know if weТve changed our stance based on a video shown June 1st by prosecutor Jeffrey Nice during the Milosevic trial at The Hague. This video was introduced virtually unchallenged at The Hague and was subsequently accepted by almost all media as proof that Serbian forces did indeed massacre thousands of Muslims after re-capturing the Bosnian town of Srebrenica in 1995.

 

One caller was shocked when I told him I thought the videoТs execution scene was staged. How could I believe that an official UN body (the Hague Tribunal) would condone fraud?

 

I argued that, rather than assuming the video was credible because it was screened by a UN organization, we would do better to assess the TribunalТs credibility by examining the video and evaluating how the Tribunal handled it. Anyway, even if the Tribunal were legitimate, the video would constitute no more than the alleged evidence of one party in a dispute. It would need to be evaluated for authenticity, just like any other supposed evidence. And, said I, if the caller examined the footage he would see why I believe it is fraudulent...

 

The caller answered that he had read all about the contents of the video in media reports, and anyway, he saw the thing on TV.

 

But the callerТs trust had been abused.

 

This is the first of a series of articles on the supposed Hague execution video. In the series I will explain how you may access the video, giving you the location of key pieces of footage. As you will see, the execution scene, as broadcast on leading TV networks, was not the same as what was shown at The Hague. The footage was altered (or further altered) to hide evidence that it is phony.

 

We will examine the media reports about the video, contrasting them to what is actually seen in the Hague footage. I believe you will agree that the media has put out propaganda, not news, and you will understand more about how the public has been led to believe the Srebrenica massacre story despite the contradictory and absurd nature of the supposed evidence

 

=========================================================

 

Contradictions and absurdities

 

=========================================================

 

Here are a few examples to whet your appetite.

 

In a story datelined June 2, (a day after The Hague screening) the Washington Post reported:

 

УThe video begins with a Serb Orthodox priest blessing the camouflaged paramilitary troops in a boot camp in Bosnia...The video was shot by a member of the Scorpions.Ф [1]

 

But, as you will see when we study the footage, there is no way of knowing where this first sequence was filmed or the identity of the people who appear in it or of the person or persons who did the filming. The Post neglects to mention this fact.Е

 

In the final sequence, it seems that six men get shot. The Post describes them as Уscared Muslims.Ф But nothing indicates the menТs religion or state of mind. Indeed, they seem entirely unemotional.

 

The LA Times informs us that the video appeared, УAs the 10th anniversary of the massacre of more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica approaches...Ф [2]

 

Meaning that before the video was shown, the existence of a huge massacre at Srebrenica was a proven fact.

 

But later in the same article, the Times tells us that УThe video has been greeted with a mixture of pain and relief by Bosnian Muslims, who see it as long-awaited proof of the [srebrenica] atrocities.Ф

 

Meaning that, before the video was shown, the alleged massacre was NOT a proven fact. Indeed, this video is what supposedly provided Уthe long-awaited proof!Ф

 

The pretzel-like character of this logic recalls Walter ScottТs wise warning, УOh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!Ф

 

But thatТs not all. As we shall see, there is nothing in the Hague footage suggesting it was filmed in or near Srebrenica or that it was filmed in July of 1995, when, we are told, the alleged massacre took place. It could have been filmed in the mountains of Iowa. There are no mountains in Iowa? No problem; edit them in. You can do anything with film footage. And as for the time period when the supposed execution footage was filmed, there is nothing in it that answers that question. It could have been filmed whenever.

 

So we have a video, which is hyped as an example of what happened during a massacre, which we are told definitely occurred, but whose existence was only proven by the appearance of this video, which however contains no indication of when or where it was filmed. Got it?

 

On June 3rd, CNN broadcast what they claimed was The Hague footage. (Actually, it had been doctored, which is a case of gilding a lily...) CNN began their broadcast with a written warning, while a voice cautioned, УThis report contains graphic content and viewer discretion is advised.Ф Reuters called the video Уgruesome.Ф Agence France Presse called it Уsickening.Ф

 

But as you will see, if the execution sequence were in fact believable, it would be far less gruesome than what we routinely watch on TV news. (For example, there is no blood; no screaming; no evidence that the alleged victims are actually hurt when shot with powerful automatic rifles at close range.) In any case, the execution footage is not believable. It is obviously staged, defying normal logic as well as the laws of physics and biology. We will look at a major Television broadcast of what is purported to be the Hague footage and you will see that the media has edited out the parts of the Hague original that show the video is a fake.

 

In similar fashion, we will see that some news reports supposedly describing the video mention incidents that are not portrayed in the Hague footage! In other words, the media has made stuff up.

 

We will examine the scene, mentioned in the New York Times and other media, in which we see what appears to be a Serbian Orthodox priest blessing the supposed villains. When the video was shown at The Hague, prosecutor Nice explained that his office put together the ten minute video from two hours of raw footage. We will ask: if Nice is telling the truth, and only 8 percent of the raw footage was used to make the final product, why did his office include this religious scene? What is the intended message?

 

The mediaТs so-called УinformationФ about when and where the video footage was filmed and the identities of people we see in it, comes from a semi-coherent running commentary delivered by Prosecutor Jeffrey Nice while the footage was being shown at The Hague. Mr. NiceТs comments could have legal standing only if he were an eye witness to what is supposedly depicted in the video. But he is not. He is a prosecutor in the super-controversial Milosevic trial, and he is trying in that trial to prove the very things that he casually asserts during his commentary on the video, which however provides no evidence to support his assertions. So, more pretzel logic.

 

We will examine the manner in which Mr. Nice introduced the video, during his cross examination of a defense witness on an issue totally unrelated to the content of the video. We will contrast what Nice did, and how the Hague judges responded, with the judicial rules governing the introduction of video evidence in court cases in the US and Canada. These rules are not petty technicalities; they are meant to guarantee the authenticity of raw video footage, and to prevent doctoring of this footage, precisely because it is so easy to do. The entire film industry is based on the creation of deceptive images, is it not? For example, in the recently released Star Wars sequel, the two lead characters seem to fight with lava flowing around them. In fact the scene is a carefully staged illusion; the actors probably never left the film studio. As we shall see, The HagueТs handling of the supposed execution video has been a travesty.

 

We will take a short look at the past actions of Natasa Kandic, credited in the media with providing Mr. Nice with the footage supposedly used to create the video. We will see that Ms. Kandic has made her living producing fraudulent evidence of supposed Serbian crimes. What does this track record suggest concerning the critical rule that, in handling supposed video evidence, the prosecution in a criminal proceeding must keep the strictest records to prove that the footage has not fallen into the hands of anyone who might falsify it?

 

I think you will see that the facts concerning this video and how it was introduced during the Milosevic proceedings support my charge that The Hague Tribunal is not a court at all. Rather it is part of a machine which has targeted the Serbs because, in the words, of former German foreign minister Klaus Kinkel, УSerbia must be forced to its knees!Ф [3]

 

I think after studying this material, you will agree that The Hague has, as part of its raison raison dТкtre, the task of providing the media with anti-Serb propaganda, enhanced with the stamp of UN credibility.

 

- To be continued in Part 2 -

 

Jared Israel

Editor, EmperorТs Clothes

[Z'areh]

Serb thugs who did those killings are guilty as charged, so are the Muslim KLA terrotists who are still terrorizing Serb communities in Kosovo.

 

The Serbs acted just like the Israelis in trying to quash the Albanians, so you do the deed so you face the consequences.

 

One is shitier than the other. The common genocidal mutated genes that they share [serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims who essentially are Islamized Serbs] has a well known historic violent track record. But in this recent story of the conflict the Serbs proved to be the cowards. There is nothing "manly" nor "heroic" in killing women and children. period.

[Nakharar]

I'm still amazed that people make it a Christian/Muslim thing. It's never been that. Any slight difference that sets you apart from the other "tribe" is reason enough for slaughter. In this regard the Balkans are not much different than the Caucasus. The Serbian bloodlust of the nineties is another version of the Croatian one in the forties. What comes around...

They are a world unto itself. Emir Kusturica's metaphor of an island that drifted apart in one of his films couldn't have summed it up more perfectly.

[Z'areh]

Nakharar, I couldn't agree with you more. Conflicts always take advantage of differences that exist, and there is nothing better differentiating side than religion. It is a handy dividing instrument.

 

The term "Bosnian Muslims" is just a designation. The Muslim factor is not the cause of the conflict. The Catholic Croatians differ from the Orthodox Serbs just enough to fuel the "religious" element for a conflict to intensify. Ask an Irish Northern Islander if they would marry their daughters to a Protestant Englishman. And yet what is really different between and Englishman and an Irishman except for a convenient religious difference on the surface to fuel things along.

[skhara]

Serb thugs who did those killings are guilty as charged, so are the Muslim KLA terrotists who are still terrorizing Serb communities in Kosovo.

 

The Serbs acted just like the Israelis in trying to quash the Albanians, so you do the deed so you face the consequences.

 

One is shitier than the other. The common genocidal mutated genes that they share [serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims who essentially are Islamized Serbs] has a well known historic violent track record. But in this recent story of the conflict the Serbs proved to be the cowards. There is nothing "manly" nor "heroic" in killing women and children. period.

 

Where may I ask did you learn to come to have such a perspective? Is it common knowledge these days that Serbs are "thugs who kill women and children"? Had you witnessed this personally? Who's accounts did you read or listen to?

 

Or is it simply the cohesive shaping and molding of what the 'civilized world', the 'western world' and the 'international community' drums for acceptance of what they say is reality? After all why would BBC news, New York Times, and cnn spin and manipulate? We have after all free, independent, and unbiased news sources, do we not?

 

To add some more 'spin' to news lets add the following: "Not since ww II yada yada, etc". "Serbs are the aggressors." Now lets add some icing on the cake. Lets have the AIPAC and ADL and various other Jewish organizations condemn Serbs. Lets loudly and proudly tie the Balkan wars of the 90s to WWII. Let's never miss a chance to make WWII references when "reporting news" from Balkans and ensuring to paint Serbs as aggressors. And finally, lets have these very same organizations tell us who are the "new-NAZIs" and who are their helpless, innocent, and defenseless victims that would never even step on an ant. And whom did they name? You guessed it, the Serbs.

 

And nothing could be more damaging to the Serbs than being branded "the new-Nazis" by Jews. And it was very damaging since what 'the civilized world' has drummed to us for several generations is that NAZIs are the most evil, wicked, murderous creatures who ever exited on the planet. They committed the worst atrocity ever known to humanity, and nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to the 'horror'. For crying out loud they even made soap and lampshades out of human beings.

 

After all, Jews know about evil and NAZIsm, they are experts on the subject. So why shouldn't we believe them when they tell us who the "new NAZIs" are?

 

I really didn't pay attention or care about what was going on in Yugoslavia during my teen years in the 90s. I didn't know much about Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians.

I do remember back in 1990, when I and my family were in Russia, a news report came on TV about the ethnic violence and political upheaval in parts of Yugoslavia.

 

Another thing I remember was watching a Soviet WWII movie that was set in Yugoslavia about some Russian soldiers fighting with Yugoslavian partisans (mostly Serbs). Oh, and I used to watch the NBA a lot as a teenager, so I came to recognize the Serbian and Croatian players in the league. Actually, for some reason I called them all, Croatians. Probably because Tony Kukoc was the most visible "Yugoslav" in the league in the 95,96 and 97 years. And maybe because I also liked, tennis, and always remember hearing Goran Ivanisevic from Croatia. And I remember the Yugoslav team from the 1990 WC in Italy. Also, during the 1994 Winter Olympic games, I think it was, in Norway, organizers insisted on a moment of silence for the victims of Sarajevo. I didn't know what that was about and could care less. "On with the games, I thought." In 1995 I heard that NATO bombed someone. I heard my pop mention it as he read it in his Russian-language newspaper. He had an angry response saying something either all three warring ethnicities should have been bombed, or none of them. I had curiosity peek then and asked him to explain what are the differences between these Yugoslavs. He explained, Serbs are Orthodox, Croats are Catholic, and there are Muslim Yugoslavs. "Oh, ok" I thought, and I went about my daily business, of soccer, basketball, track, homework, "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air", Sega, Nintendo, etc.. In 1998 WC I saw team Yugoslavia again. This time there was a team Croatia too. I remember team Yugoslavia defeating team USA, all the while toying with them. Oh and I almost forgot, in school, when WWI was covered, I learned that 'Serbs started WWI'. By the way, no mention of Armenians in the class during this portion. The two paragraphs above explain just about everything I knew or heard of Yugoslavs prior 1999. As far as Albanians, I hardly knew they existed. I knew there was country in the Balkans called Albania, didn't know anything about them though. Apparently the Belushi brothers are Albanian. Anyway, since there was a ceasefire in Bosnia, and there wasn't any major news for the next 3 years, I didn't really hear anything of it.

 

In my Senior year in high school I took an Advanced Placement European history class. Believe it or not, I took the class for fun. Its true. It was a challenging and demanding class, where we had to write papers. It covered from about 1400 to the break-up of the USSR. I did my own thinking with the information presented. In this class, several times the Armenians came up. Namely what was dubbed in European circles as "The Armenian question." I came to understand that the problem between Turks and Armenians is, and has always been a clash of civilizations. Armenians were reaching towards Western Europe and Russia, and Turks greatly resented that.

I became familiarized with many events in European history, and came to understand the policies and politics (not much is different today).

 

We covered WWI and now with all my interest in learning blooming I started to gain an interest in the Balkans. I noticed, as mentioned above, the very interesting similarity to the Caucasus. Anyway, one day in late March, on the second day of the bombing raids against Serbia, our teacher brought up the topic and the whole day was spent talking about the bombings. It was mostly, us students asking questions, and him answering. He basically said "Milosevic is a bad guy." "We are making a mistake, but hope it works." We also talked about how pathetic Russia was for not really doing anything, while 19 countries were violating international law by conducting aggression against a sovereign state without a UN resolution. Also, I related what was going on in 1999 to what I analyzed in the class about the Balkans. And that is that the Serbs are the dominant ethnic group in Central Balkans. That the Balkans is a major strategic gateway that the 'big boys' wanted to control. That Serbs had always had national aspirations and wanted their own independent nation free of foreign dominance, and that the big powers were opposed because they wanted to control the Balkan crossroad. The other ethnicities were resentful of Serbs because of their dominant role. So big powers always used them against Serbs. Thus Serbs were getting massacred and harassed during Ottoman era by Turks and their Moslem allies and their areas were getting repopulated with Moslem settlers. Latter the Austro-Hungarian Empire took the role of the Ottoman empire and used especially Albanians against Serbs. The Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians happily joined fascist Italy and NAZI Germany to further their own national aspirations during WWII, at the expense of Serbs, and today I decided, was no different. Again 'the big boys' are using the anti-Serbian ethnicities to attack Serbs because one again Serbs had their goals and agendas that didn't fall in line with the 'big boys'. Needless to say, having seen that through this historical perspective, I felt a great sense of injustice with what was happening.

 

That day, for some reason, soccer, basketball, and track were not on my mind. That day I came home and did a quick, half-assed job on my homework so I could spend the rest of the day watching news. Not "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air", but news. Actually, correction, "news". I turned on the TV, and kept switching channels between CNN, FOX, MSNBC, CNBC, and C-SPAN. You could say that I gained an extremely keen interest in what was going on. I must have gone through everything that was on TV. I liked C-SPAN because they ran news footage from Serbia, Russia, and even China. And also they brought in ambassadors from different nations for interviews; and people around the United States were calling in with questions or comments. In the meantime CNN was showing how 80 - 90% of Americans supported bombing Serbs. That was a confusing contradiction for me because on C-SPANs "Talk of the Nation", 90% of the people that were calling in, were fully against the bombing and were making very smart intelligent commentary and often cornering these ambassadors. So it seemed to be an interesting contradiction in what was claimed by CNN and what I was personally witnessing on a live television broadcast from voices around the nation. Or is it just that most of the people who watch "Talk of the Nation" were individuals like me, desiring to learn the truth, seeing and identifying it thorough a fog of lies, and daring to make their voices heard? So either CNN was fabricating polls, manipulating and leading their questions, or the respondents were stupid people who 'jingoistically' repeat that which they are told without question. My belief, is that all of the above applied.

 

Through watching all these channels and analysis I noticed so many contradictions, manipulations, and flat out lies, it made me sick to my stomach and made me truly understand the world that we are living in. When I saw politicians, reporters, news anchors on the tube shamelessly and maliciously lying, I would become angry. I would wish that I were there, in those rooms with them, throwing their wicked and malicious lies back in their faces and down their throats. And I knew, that I as 18 year old could do it. And I knew I could corner them and make them look stupid. But there was no one. There was no one to challenge their lies that could have been challenged. They could have been challenged by official documents and established historical facts. Sound familiar? I AM SICK OF LIES. I AM SICK OF MANIPULATION. AND I AM SICK OF HAVING LIES MADE INTO TRUTHS BY MAKING THEM REPETITIUOS CLICHES. A LIE REPEATED A MILLION TIMES TO A BILLION PEOPLE DOES NOT EQUAL TRUTH.

 

So Z'areh, when you say "The Serb thugs are guilty as charged." I say, that they are guilty of nothing that any free, independent, and defiant people wouldn't have done in their stead. And those who charge them, are the true criminals. And those who charge them, have charged, tried, convicted, and murdered many innocents while shamelessly, knowingly, and maliciously cover and lie about the true and real crimes.

 

I refuse to believe that there will never be a day of reckoning when the hammer will once and for all come down on the guilty. I refuse to believe that the innocent will continue to be punished while the guilty will continue to go free and lie about their deeds. The hammer will come down and I want you to be on the topside of it, not the bottom. When it does, ignorance, and indifference will not be proper excuses. I look forward to such a day.

 

Can you believe it, that the “Strikes against Yugoslavia” made a significant impact on the way I view and understand many events yesterday and today. I took a interest in informing myself, and learned about much greater forces that run the show. I was seriously considering the air force in that last year of high school. An army recruiter actually came to our home and was very convincing about the career opportunity potentials. I couldn’t in all conscience do it, when late March 1999 came around. I felt that if I did, I would only become an additional weapon in a criminal enterprise.

Edited July 15, 2005 by skhara

[Dave]

I agree Skhara. Nobody seems to care about how the Serbs were treated under Ottoman rule, or about how Muslims entered that area, far from Arabia. Edited July 15, 2005 by Dave

[Verginne]

Serb thugs who did those killings are guilty as charged, so are the Muslim KLA terrotists who are still terrorizing Serb communities in Kosovo.

 

The Serbs acted just like the Israelis in trying to quash the Albanians, so you do the deed so you face the consequences.

 

Excuse me, but I tend to think that albanians belong in albania. That land the albanians are trying to steal is ancient ancestral Serbian land. It's albanians who have indulged in constant terrorism, anti-Serbian pogroms and wanton destruction, especially of Christian churches. The Serbs are just trying to survive and defend themselves. Obviously you need a history and geography lesson. You shouldn't be commenting on things you are unfamiliar with. So, no the Serbs did not act like israelis, israelis are on someone else's land and you might more appropriately call what the albanians are doing exactly like what the israelis are doing, ejecting the aborginal population. So when are these albanians going to face some consequences? Also, the albanians are acting exactly like the azerbaboons did on Armenian land, NK, and like the turks. In fact, albanians are turkic people. But you go right ahead and take their side, that seems to be where you belong.

 

One is shitier than the other. The common genocidal mutated genes that they  share [serbs,Croats,Bosnian Muslims who essentially are Islamized Serbs] has a well known historic violent track record. But in this recent story of the conflict the Serbs proved to be the cowards. There is nothing "manly" nor "heroic" in killing women and children. period.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

croats, albanians and bosian muslism are infected with genocidal turkish genes. Not the Serbs. And/or they are infected with the mental aberration known as islam. In the case of croats, it's false Catholicism.

[vava]

In inter-racial/inter-ethnic conflicts that span over centuries, it is very difficult to point a finger at on party and call them 'entirely innocent'. It takes two to tango - and you can't have a 'war' all by yourself.

[Z'areh]

Dear skhara,

 

I appreciate very much your thoughts, I have no doubt that what you wrote comes from your heart and that you are very genuine in expressing your disgust about Western manipulations. I could not agree with you more on that respect.

 

But hear me out, for whatever it’s worth for you.

 

You say my thoughts are shaped with listening Western media. My response is : NO I do not and have not based my knowledge on reading or listening one sided Western media. I read and write Armenian, Arabic, French and obviously this language, and I follow news reports from as diverse sources as possible, I do not listen nor watch CNN or the other American networks. And thank God I do not live in the USA.

 

I am not as young as you are (assuming you are younger from the way you describe the 90’s as not being interested in the war nor knowing who the Serbs were or where Yugoslavia was. I am amused in reading this confession because it is typically “American” not to know geographic details, let’s just say… I don’t hold that against you personally), and I followed those events on a daily basis while it was happening.

 

Knowing the history of a nation and having an affinity towards her does not or should not permit one to close his eyes in regards to crimes committed in the name of patriotism. It is amusing to read that you have a background in Russia, knowing full well overwhelming sympathy that exists between the Russians and the Serbs could it be that your own perspectives “are shaped and molded” by this factor? What “independent” and “unbiased” sources did you read or listen to reach your own conclusions?

 

You say:

 

  I AM SICK OF LIES.  I AM SICK OF MANIPULATION.  AND I AM SICK OF HAVING LIES MADE INTO TRUTHS BY MAKING THEM REPETITIUOS CLICHES.  A LIE REPEATED A MILLION TIMES TO A BILLION PEOPLE DOES NOT EQUAL TRUTH.

 

So Z'areh, when you say "The Serb thugs are guilty as charged."  I say, that they are guilty of nothing that any free, independent, and defiant people wouldn't have done in their stead.  And those who charge them, are the true criminals.  And those who charge them, have charged, tried, convicted, and murdered many innocents while shamelessly, knowingly, and maliciously cover and lie about the true and real crimes. 

 

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Your accusations of my “molded and shaped” perspectives have not been countered by any substantiated argument, except for your declarations of pro-Serbian affinities, you cannot prove that the Serbs actually did not commit crimes against humanity in fact you go further and justify their actions by stating that “I say, that they are guilty of nothing that any free, independent, and defiant people wouldn't have done in their stead.”

 

my dear friend, I am also sick of lies and manipulations from ALL sides, all I ask is to have an open mind in pursuing any truth so that one will not be the victim of someone else’s garbage, or you can choose to be blind in regards to the horrendous atrocities that we witnessed, yes witnessed, while you were watching “fresh prince of Belair” and decide one day that since the Serbs were wronged in the past are innocent today.

 

I wonder what “lies” and “manipulations” await the Armenians of Sumgait and Baku ?

 

 

And finally to my anoushig Verggine, don’t you sound just like a Jew when you say Albanians have Albania, Just as a Jew you would say Palestinians have Jordan. When will you say something that actually would be worth anything?

Edited July 15, 2005 by Z'areh

[DominO123]

I wonder what “lies” and “manipulations” await the Armenians of Sumgait and Baku ?

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I thought you already knew this. It can be sommed up by this declaration: "The Russians did it, and the Azeris took the blame."

[Armen]

It can be sommed up by this declaration: "The Russians did it, and the Azeris took the blame."

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Sounds like one of those conspiracy theories.

[DominO123]

Sounds like one of those conspiracy theories.

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And you don't know the rest.

[Verginne]

Dear skhara,

 

I appreciate very much your thoughts, I have no doubt that what you wrote comes from your heart and that you are very genuine in expressing your disgust about Western manipulations. I could not agree with you more on that respect.

 

But hear me out, for whatever it’s worth for you.

 

You say my thoughts are shaped with listening Western media. My response is : NO I do not and have not based my knowledge on reading or listening one sided Western media. I read and write Armenian, Arabic, French and obviously this language, and I follow news reports from as diverse sources as possible, I do not listen nor watch CNN or the other American networks. And thank God I do not live in the USA.

 

I am not as young as you are (assuming you are younger from the way you describe the 90’s as not being interested in the war nor knowing who the Serbs were or where Yugoslavia was. I am amused in reading this confession because it is typically “American” not to know geographic details, let’s just say… I don’t hold that against you personally), and I followed those events on a daily basis while it was happening.

 

Knowing the history of a nation and having an affinity towards her does not or should not permit one to close his eyes in regards to crimes committed in the name of patriotism. It is amusing to read that you have a background in Russia, knowing full well overwhelming sympathy that exists between the Russians and the Serbs could it be that your own perspectives “are shaped and molded” by this factor? What “independent” and “unbiased” sources did you read or listen to reach your own conclusions?

 

You say:

Your accusations of my “molded and shaped” perspectives have not been countered by any substantiated argument, except for your declarations of pro-Serbian affinities, you cannot prove that the Serbs actually did not commit crimes against humanity in fact you go further and justify their actions by stating that “I say, that they are guilty of nothing that any free, independent, and defiant people wouldn't have done in their stead.”

 

my dear friend, I am also sick of lies and manipulations from ALL sides, all I ask is to have an open mind  in pursuing any truth so that one will not be the victim of someone else’s garbage, or you can choose to be blind in regards to the horrendous atrocities that we witnessed, yes witnessed, while you were watching “fresh prince of Belair” and decide one day that since the Serbs were wronged in the past are innocent today.

 

I wonder what “lies” and “manipulations” await the Armenians of Sumgait and Baku ?

And finally to my anoushig Verggine, don’t you sound just like a Jew when you say Albanians have Albania, Just as a Jew you would say Palestinians have Jordan. When will you say something that actually would be worth anything?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Very amusing Zareh, but an entirely invalid comparison. Especially coming from the number one defender of the jews/israel. Do tell us why the Hague is taking a major beating because ALL of their evidence against Milosevic and the Serbs is being handily shown for the total garbage and lies that it is and always will be?

 

If you are so knowledgeable about the situation, do tell us what you know about the Ruder Finn fiasco. Only then will I accept that you have examined all of the evidence. I also expect to hear what you know about what is going on in the Hague.

[Verginne]

Where may I ask did you learn to come to have such a perspective?  Is it common knowledge these days that Serbs are "thugs who kill women and children"?  Had you witnessed this personally?  Who's accounts did you read or listen to?

 

Or is it simply the cohesive shaping and molding of what the 'civilized world', the 'western world' and the 'international community' drums for acceptance of what they say is reality?  After all why would BBC news, New York Times, and cnn spin and manipulate?  We have after all free, independent, and unbiased news sources, do we not? 

 

To add some more 'spin' to news lets add the following:  "Not since ww II yada yada, etc".  "Serbs are the aggressors."  Now lets add some icing on the cake.  Lets have the AIPAC and ADL and various other Jewish organizations condemn Serbs.  Lets loudly and proudly tie the Balkan wars of the 90s to WWII.  Let's never miss a chance to make WWII references when "reporting news" from Balkans and ensuring to paint Serbs as aggressors.  And finally, lets have these very same organizations tell us who are the "new-NAZIs" and who are their helpless, innocent, and defenseless victims that would never even step on an ant.  And whom did they name?  You guessed it, the Serbs. 

 

And nothing could be more damaging to the Serbs than being branded "the new-Nazis" by Jews.  And it was very damaging since what 'the civilized world' has drummed to us for several generations is that NAZIs are the most evil, wicked, murderous creatures who ever exited on the planet.  They committed the worst atrocity ever known to humanity, and nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to the 'horror'.  For crying out loud they even made soap and lampshades out of human beings.

 

After all, Jews know about evil and NAZIsm, they are experts on the subject.  So why shouldn't we believe them when they tell us who the "new NAZIs" are? 

 

I really didn't pay attention or care about what was going on in Yugoslavia during my teen years in the 90s.  I didn't know much about Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians. 

I do remember back in 1990, when I and my family were in Russia, a news report came on TV about the ethnic violence and political upheaval in parts of Yugoslavia.

 

Another thing I remember was watching a Soviet WWII movie that was set in Yugoslavia about some Russian soldiers fighting with Yugoslavian partisans (mostly Serbs).  Oh, and I used to watch the NBA a lot as a teenager, so I came to recognize the Serbian and Croatian players in the league.  Actually, for some reason I called them all, Croatians.  Probably because Tony Kukoc was the most visible "Yugoslav" in the league in the 95,96 and 97 years.  And maybe because I also liked, tennis, and always remember hearing Goran Ivanisevic from Croatia.  And I remember the Yugoslav team from the 1990 WC in Italy.  Also, during the 1994 Winter Olympic games, I think it was, in Norway, organizers insisted on a moment of silence for the victims of Sarajevo.  I didn't know what that was about and could care less.  "On with the games, I thought."  In 1995 I heard that NATO bombed someone.  I heard  my pop mention it as he read it in his Russian-language newspaper.  He had an angry response saying something either all three warring ethnicities should have been bombed, or none of them.  I had curiosity peek then and asked him to explain what are the differences between these Yugoslavs.  He explained, Serbs are Orthodox, Croats are Catholic, and there are Muslim Yugoslavs.  "Oh, ok" I thought, and I went about my daily business, of soccer, basketball, track, homework, "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air",  Sega, Nintendo, etc..  In 1998 WC I saw team Yugoslavia again.  This time there was a team Croatia too.  I remember team Yugoslavia defeating team USA, all the while toying with them.  Oh and I almost forgot, in school, when WWI was covered, I learned that 'Serbs started WWI'.  By the way, no mention of Armenians in the class during this portion.  The two paragraphs above explain just about everything I knew or heard of Yugoslavs prior 1999.  As far as Albanians, I hardly knew they existed.  I knew there was country in the Balkans called Albania, didn't know anything about them though.  Apparently the Belushi brothers are Albanian.  Anyway, since there was a ceasefire in Bosnia, and there wasn't any major news for the next 3 years, I didn't really hear anything of it.

 

In my Senior year in high school I took an Advanced Placement European history class.  Believe it or not, I took the class for fun.  Its true.  It was a challenging and demanding class, where we had to write papers.  It covered from about 1400 to the break-up of the USSR.  I did my own thinking with the information presented.  In this class, several times the Armenians came up.  Namely what was dubbed in European circles as "The Armenian question."  I came to understand that the problem between Turks and Armenians is, and has always been a clash of civilizations.  Armenians were reaching towards Western Europe and Russia, and Turks greatly resented that.

I became familiarized with many events in European history, and came to understand the policies and politics (not much is different today). 

 

We covered WWI and now with all my interest in learning blooming I started to gain an interest in the Balkans.  I noticed, as mentioned above, the very interesting similarity to the Caucasus.  Anyway, one day in late March, on the second day of the bombing raids against Serbia, our teacher brought up the topic and the whole day was spent talking about the bombings.  It was mostly, us students asking questions, and him answering.  He basically said "Milosevic is a bad guy."  "We are making a mistake, but hope it works."  We also talked about how pathetic Russia was for not really doing anything, while 19 countries were violating international law by conducting aggression against a sovereign state without a UN resolution.  Also, I related what was going on in 1999 to what I analyzed in the class about the Balkans.  And that is that the Serbs are the dominant ethnic group in Central Balkans.  That the Balkans is a major strategic gateway that the 'big boys' wanted to control.  That Serbs had always had national aspirations and wanted their own independent nation free of foreign dominance, and that the big powers were opposed because they wanted to control the Balkan crossroad.  The other ethnicities were resentful of Serbs because of their dominant role.  So big powers always used them against Serbs.  Thus Serbs were getting massacred and harassed during Ottoman era by Turks and their Moslem allies and their areas were getting repopulated with Moslem settlers.  Latter the Austro-Hungarian Empire took the role of the Ottoman empire and used especially Albanians against Serbs.  The Croats, Bosnians, and Albanians happily joined fascist Italy and NAZI Germany to further their own national aspirations during WWII, at the expense of Serbs, and today I decided, was no different.  Again 'the big boys' are using the anti-Serbian ethnicities to attack Serbs because one again Serbs had their goals and agendas that didn't fall in line with the 'big boys'.  Needless to say, having seen that through this historical perspective, I felt a great sense of injustice with what was happening. 

 

That day, for some reason, soccer, basketball, and track were not on my mind.  That day I came home and did a quick, half-assed job on my homework so I could spend the rest of the day watching news.  Not "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air", but news.  Actually, correction, "news".  I turned on the TV, and kept switching channels between CNN, FOX, MSNBC, CNBC, and C-SPAN.  You could say that I gained an extremely keen interest in what was going on.  I must have gone through everything that was on TV.  I liked C-SPAN because they ran news footage from Serbia, Russia, and even China.  And also they brought in ambassadors from different nations for interviews; and people around the United States were calling in with questions or comments.  In the meantime CNN was showing how 80 - 90% of Americans supported bombing Serbs.  That was a confusing contradiction for me because on C-SPANs "Talk of the Nation", 90% of the people that were calling in, were fully against the bombing and were making very smart intelligent commentary and often cornering these ambassadors.  So it seemed to be an interesting contradiction in what was claimed by CNN and what I was personally witnessing on a live television broadcast from voices around the nation.  Or is it just that most of the people who watch "Talk of the Nation" were individuals like me, desiring to learn the truth, seeing and identifying it thorough a fog of lies, and daring to make their voices heard?  So either CNN was fabricating polls, manipulating and leading their questions, or the respondents were stupid people who 'jingoistically' repeat that which they are told without question.  My belief, is that all of the above applied.

 

Through watching all these channels and analysis I noticed so many contradictions, manipulations, and flat out lies, it made me sick to my stomach and made me truly understand the world that we are living in.  When I saw politicians, reporters, news anchors on the tube shamelessly and maliciously lying, I would become angry.  I would wish that I were there, in those rooms with them, throwing their wicked and malicious lies back in their faces and down their throats.  And I knew, that I as 18 year old could do it.  And I knew I could corner them and make them look stupid.  But there was no one.  There was no one to challenge their lies that could have been challenged.  They could have been challenged by official documents and established historical facts.  Sound familiar?  I AM SICK OF LIES.  I AM SICK OF MANIPULATION.  AND I AM SICK OF HAVING LIES MADE INTO TRUTHS BY MAKING THEM REPETITIUOS CLICHES.  A LIE REPEATED A MILLION TIMES TO A BILLION PEOPLE DOES NOT EQUAL TRUTH.

 

So Z'areh, when you say "The Serb thugs are guilty as charged."  I say, that they are guilty of nothing that any free, independent, and defiant people wouldn't have done in their stead.  And those who charge them, are the true criminals.  And those who charge them, have charged, tried, convicted, and murdered many innocents while shamelessly, knowingly, and maliciously cover and lie about the true and real crimes. 

 

I refuse to believe that there will never be a day of reckoning when the hammer will once and for all come down on the guilty.  I refuse to believe that the innocent will continue to be punished while the guilty will continue to go free and lie about their deeds.  The hammer will come down and I want you to be on the topside of it, not the bottom.  When it does, ignorance, and indifference will not be proper excuses.  I look forward to such a day.

 

Can you believe it, that the “Strikes against Yugoslavia” made a significant impact on the way I view and understand many events yesterday and today.  I took a interest in informing myself, and learned about much greater forces that run the show.  I was seriously considering the air force in that last year of high school.  An army recruiter actually came to our home and was very convincing about the career opportunity potentials.  I couldn’t in all conscience do it, when late March 1999 came around.  I felt that if I did, I would only become an additional weapon in a criminal enterprise.

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BRAVO, an excellent post showing intelligence and great knowledge of the geopolitical situation, the history of the area and its geography.

 

Pathetic to see people that should recognize the situation that Armenians are in in the situation the Serbs are in. The only reason Armenia didn't get the Serbia treatment is its close relationhip/alliance and position geographically close to Russia.

[skhara]

@Zareh,

 

You mistook/misunderstood a couple of things:

 

Your accusations of my “molded and shaped” perspectives have not been countered by any substantiated argument,

 

If you read up top you will notice that my first few sentences were questions, not accusations. For what I asked was what shaped your perspective.

 

I am amused in reading this confession because it is typically “American” not to know geographic details,

 

Geographic details I never mentioned. As kid geography was hobby of mine, I looked at maps of Europe and memorized all the European capitals, North American capitals, South American, and most Asian capitals. And I did know about various nationalities. It's just in the Soviet circles the people of Yugoslavia were just Yugoslavs. Their language, although officially called Serbo-Croatian, was Yugoslavian as far as I was concerned. I heard it spoken and thought "Hey, it sounds a bit like Russian." I later gained much greater familiarity with historical policies and politics of the Balkans as a result of my peeked interest.

 

But you are right about Americans not knowing geographic details. There was a girl who passed out a questionair to our class during this time to test our most basic understanding of what was happening. One question was about where Yugoslavia was located. One of my class-mates thought it was the Middle East. I can understand that, since the Middle East is what America usually bombs.

 

And yes, I do have a generally pro-Russia/pro-Russian outlook so perhaps subconsiously it transfers into an automatic pro-Serbian stance as well. But maybe also, getting glued to the TV and digging around the internet, seeing lies and contradictions reported by mass-media helped to push me into a pro-Serbian stance as well? I stayed up passed midnight some nights, during regular weekdays, so I could watch C-SPAN and see some footage from the other side. And I remember when TV stations became bomb targets for "spreading propaganda". And I thought wait a minute, who besides a small number of the population stays passed midnight to watch C-SPAN? Everyone else watches CNN, FOX, etc... If Serbs do not have the truth on their side, then what's the big deal? Especially since that went directly against NATOs high command promise of not targetting civilians and civilian infastructure. Actually I remember pretty much RTS being "knocked off" in the middle of their broadcasts. And they would come back on, and get "knocked off" again. And yeah, that kind of helped shape and mold my 'bias'.

 

As far as crimes. I do not believe for a minute the official story of Srebrenica. I don't know if I should go into it or not and if you care whether I go into or not. I do know there were crimes committed by all the sides. I can't possibly know what exactly they were and who deserves to be condmed more for individual crimes. The way I see it, is if individuals have committed crimes, take it up with the individuals. The only state-sponsored crimes were ones conducted by the Croatian state and the Bosnian state. Serbs were stuck in these states and didn't have a state. What I can do, is look at the big picture of the violent breakup of Yugoslavia.

 

The communist regime of Yugoslavia conducted similar ethnic policies in Yugoslavia that were conducted in the USSR. Borders where chaged and populations were shifted. So when Croatia and Bosnia declared their independence, large Serbian areas ended up on the wrong side of the border. Germany, EU, US, etc.., recognised the independence of these new nations on the basis of 'self-determination'. And now Serbs in areas such as Kraijna, thought "These guys are raising the same checkered ustashi flag under which many of our people killed, we declare our own right to self-determination." And in Bosnia, they thought "Wow back to the Ottoman days of Muslim rule. We lived in a country called Yugoslavia, we didn't exactly feel like ending up in Muslim dominated country called Bosnia. Perhaps we should exercise our own right to self-determination?" No no, says the "inernational community", we respect the territorial integrities of these 2 states. So they didn't respect the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, by the immediate recognition of Bosnia and Croatia, choosing instead to 'respect' the right of self-determination in this case. But they respected the Bosnian and Croatian territorial itegrity while ignoring the Serbs right to self-determination. Hence is your conflict. Seeing this from their eyes, I can't blame them for rebelling.

 

I know some horrific accouts were told by Serbs of what was done to them in the early 90s in Bosnia. It was done in order to terrorise the Serbs to leave Bosnia. I don't remember ever hearing of their accouts on TV. I only heard of Serbian agression of TV.

 

And if we take a comparison to the Artsakh war. It was out of the question for Armenians to end up in an independent Azerbaijan. It was at least tolerable when it was the Soviet Union, but there was no way they were going to simply let themselves be ruled directly from Baku. And in the beginning all the atrocities were against us, and in the beginning, there was small guerilla resistance groups countering the Azeri forces, but for the most part the Azeris could walk all over terrorising the population of Nagorno-Artsax. Similar to how in Bosnia, the Serbs were being terrorised thus forcing them to organise into self-defence units. Just like the Armenians in Nagorno-Artsax organised into self-defence units. And both of these forces recieved support from where support was expected from. And both ended up getting the upper hand and eventually getting painted as agressors.

 

Are you also then willing to accuse Armenians of crimes against humanity? There was after all ethnic cleansing of Azeris in districts around Artsax was there not? If the "international community" wanted to, they could have made Khojaly into a Srebrenica type event, could they not?

 

Is this all my inherent bias talking? Did anythig make sense?

[Verginne]

@Zareh,

 

You mistook/misunderstood a couple of things:

If you read up top you will notice that my first few sentences were questions, not accusations.  For what I asked was what shaped your perspective. 

Geographic details I never mentioned.  As kid geography was hobby of mine, I looked at maps of Europe and memorized all the European capitals, North American capitals, South American, and most Asian capitals.  And I did know about various nationalities.  It's just in the Soviet circles the people of Yugoslavia were just Yugoslavs.  Their language, although officially called Serbo-Croatian, was Yugoslavian as far as I was concerned.  I heard it spoken and thought "Hey, it sounds a bit like Russian."  I later gained much greater familiarity with historical policies and politics of the Balkans as a result of my peeked interest.

 

But you are right about Americans not knowing geographic details.  There was a girl who passed out a questionair to our class during this time to test our most basic understanding of what was happening.  One question was about where Yugoslavia was located.  One of my class-mates thought it was the Middle East.  I can understand that, since the Middle East is what America usually bombs.

 

And yes, I do have a generally pro-Russia/pro-Russian outlook so perhaps subconsiously it transfers into an automatic pro-Serbian stance as well.  But maybe also, getting glued to the TV and digging around the internet, seeing lies and contradictions reported by mass-media helped to push me into a pro-Serbian stance as well?  I stayed up passed midnight some nights, during regular weekdays, so I could watch C-SPAN and see some footage from the other side.  And I remember when TV stations became bomb targets for "spreading propaganda".  And I thought wait a minute, who besides a small number of the population stays passed midnight to watch C-SPAN?  Everyone else watches CNN, FOX, etc...  If Serbs do not have the truth on their side, then what's the big deal?  Especially since that went directly against NATOs high command promise of not targetting civilians and civilian infastructure.  Actually I remember pretty much RTS being "knocked off" in the middle of their broadcasts.  And they would come back on, and get "knocked off" again.  And yeah, that kind of helped shape and mold my 'bias'.

 

As far as crimes.  I do not believe for a minute the official story of Srebrenica.  I don't know if I should go into it or not and if you care whether I go into or not.  I do know there were crimes committed by all the sides.  I can't possibly know what exactly they were and who deserves to be condmed more for individual crimes.  The way I see it, is if individuals have committed crimes, take it up with the individuals.  The only state-sponsored crimes were ones conducted by the Croatian state and the Bosnian state.  Serbs were stuck in these states and didn't have a state.  What I can do, is look at the big picture of the violent breakup of Yugoslavia.

 

The communist regime of Yugoslavia conducted similar ethnic policies in Yugoslavia that were conducted in the USSR.  Borders where chaged and populations were shifted.  So when Croatia and Bosnia declared their independence, large Serbian areas ended up on the wrong side of the border.  Germany, EU, US, etc.., recognised the independence of these new nations on the basis of 'self-determination'. And now Serbs in areas such as Kraijna, thought "These guys are raising the same checkered ustashi flag under which many of our people killed, we declare our own right to self-determination."    And in Bosnia, they thought "Wow back to the Ottoman days of Muslim rule. We lived in a country called Yugoslavia, we didn't exactly feel like ending up in Muslim dominated country called Bosnia.  Perhaps we should exercise our own right to self-determination?"  No  no, says the "inernational community", we respect the territorial integrities of these 2 states.  So they didn't respect the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, by the immediate recognition of Bosnia and Croatia, choosing instead to 'respect' the right of self-determination in this case.  But they respected the Bosnian and Croatian territorial itegrity while ignoring the Serbs right to self-determination.  Hence is your conflict.  Seeing this from their eyes, I can't blame them for rebelling.

 

I know some horrific accouts were told by Serbs of what was done to them in the early 90s in Bosnia.  It was done in order to terrorise the Serbs to leave Bosnia.  I don't remember ever hearing of their accouts on TV.  I only heard of Serbian agression of TV. 

 

And if we take a comparison to the Artsakh war.  It was out of the question for Armenians to end up in an independent Azerbaijan.  It was at least tolerable when it was the Soviet Union, but there was no way they were going to simply let themselves be ruled directly from Baku.  And in the beginning all the atrocities were against us, and in the beginning, there was small guerilla resistance groups countering the Azeri forces, but for the most part the Azeris could walk all over terrorising the population of Nagorno-Artsax.  Similar to how in Bosnia, the Serbs were being terrorised thus forcing them to organise into self-defence units.  Just like the Armenians in Nagorno-Artsax organised into self-defence units.  And both of these forces recieved support from where support was expected from.  And both ended up getting the upper hand and eventually getting painted as agressors.

 

Are you also then willing to accuse Armenians of crimes against humanity?  There was after all ethnic cleansing of Azeris in districts around Artsax was there not?  If the "international community" wanted to, they could have made Khojaly into a Srebrenica type event, could they not? 

 

Is this all my inherent bias talking?  Did anythig make sense?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

You make many excellent points. Additionally, the muslims didn't hide what they planned on doing with Serbian Christians and they had already started.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

* The text below was published in October 1991 in the Bosnian *

* magazine Vox. With permission from the book "The Eradication of *

* of Serbs" that provided evidence that led to indictments at The *

* Hague. Authenticity can be confirmed by writing to P.O. Box 163, *

* CDN, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3S 2S5. *

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO SERBS IN THE ISLAMIC

REPUBLIC OF BOSNIA - HERZEGOVINA

 

 

The day is nearing when the announced Islamic Republic of

Bosnia-Herzegovina will be proclaimed. The date which every

Moslem in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sandzak is ardently waiting

for has been known for a long time to be the 31st December.

There are some indications that Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina

might oppose this historic event. In this connection, certain

measures have been taken which will be applied if the Serb

population of Bosnia-Herzegovina does not agree to this idea.

 

1. Every individual Serb must be aware of the responsibility

of the entire nation for his uncontrolled actions; the penalty

for crimes committed will be collective - for one demolished

Moslem house, ten Serb houses will be demolished - for one dead

Moslem, one hundred Serbs will be liquidated - for one wounded

Moslem (depending on the severity of the wound) 10-15 Serbs.

 

2. All Serbs will have a 12-hour working day. Their wages

will be proportionate to the loyalty of all the employees and

as a rule they will be paid 30% less than the wages of Moslems

who occupy the same post.

 

3. Serbs will have priority in the dismissal of redundant

workers.

 

4. Serbs cannot enter public institutions without special passes.

 

5. Serbs will receive rations for food which they will obtain in

special shops.

 

6. Serbs do not have national parties and if they do not abide

by the rules of political life, they will not be entitled to

political Organization or to vote.

 

7. In the Islamic Republic, the right of Serbs to produce

alcohol will not be withdrawn, but Moslems are entitled to apply

the Sheriat to all inhabitants of the state.

 

8. Serbs are equal to Moslems if, of their own will, they are

received into the Islamic faith of their forefathers. No one has

the right to refer to their previous life because they are not

guilty for being Serbs. No generation is accountable for the

actions of the previous one, or some other that preceded it.

 

9. A good Serb is a living and obedient Serb; or a dead,

disobedient Serb.

[vava]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    *      The text below was published in October 1991 in the Bosnian  *

    *  magazine Vox. With permission from the book "The Eradication of  *

    *  of Serbs" that provided evidence that led to indictments at The  *

    *  Hague. Authenticity can be confirmed by writing to P.O. Box 163, *

    *  CDN, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3S 2S5.                          *

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

                  WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO SERBS IN THE ISLAMIC

                      REPUBLIC OF BOSNIA - HERZEGOVINA

          The day is nearing when the announced Islamic Republic of

        Bosnia-Herzegovina will be proclaimed. The date which every

        Moslem in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sandzak is ardently waiting

        for has been known for a long time to be the 31st December.

        There are some indications that Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina

        might oppose this historic event. In this connection, certain

        measures have been taken which will be applied if the Serb

        population of Bosnia-Herzegovina does not agree to this idea.

 

 

.........

 

          9. A good Serb is a living and obedient Serb; or a dead,

        disobedient Serb.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Verginne, how can you take stock in this type of propogandist material? It was obviously written for a 'fringe' audience by a fanatic. It can't possible reflect feelings/aspirations of an entire population.

 

Every ethnicity and/or religious group has its fanatics - and their views are rarely

accepted by the majority they pretend to represent. There's a big difference between the 'think-tanks' and the 'crackpots' and you must learn to differentiate between the two.

[Verginne]

Verginne, how can you take stock in this type of propogandist material? It was obviously written for a 'fringe' audience by a fanatic. It can't possible reflect feelings/aspirations of an entire population. 

 

Why are you so quick to say obviously it's fanatics? There's nothing obvious about it. It was printed in a muslim magazine. What do you think those murderous muslims fighting the Serbs were, pacifist innocents or something? Give me a break. They were engaged in a most brutal war against the Serbs.

 

Every ethnicity and/or religious group has its fanatics - and their views are rarely

accepted by the majority they pretend to represent. There's a big difference between the 'think-tanks' and the 'crackpots' and you must learn to differentiate between the two.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

So, tell me is every ethnicity like turks??? I don't think so. I don't see any Armenian in his/her right mind ever supporting islamic expansionsits which those people most defnitely were/are. Even the Croats, who also fought against the Serbs, know that these muslims were fanatic islamic extremists. It is very odd that your sympathies seem to lie with them. Is it this "ameriKKKan" thing, you think because your stinking government supported them that they were in the right? Pfffffffffffffffftttt.

 

I have some rather disgusting pictures of their handiwork if you don't believe me and I don't mind telling you they'd remind you very much of the AG.

[vava]

Look vergine, I have no specific sympathies with any of the groups involved in the serb/bosnian/montenegran/croat conflict. The serbs did some very bad things - as did the bosnians, as did the albanians etc... no one group was entirely 'in the right'. My problem lies with you taking what is obviously a pro-islamist 'manifesto' and project it as the ultimate objective of an entire ethnic group (perhaps even out of context).

 

It's incorrect to generalise to that level - there are so many shades of grey between your black and white.

[Verginne]

I have no specific sympathies with any of the groups involved in the turk/azeri/Armenian conflict. The Armenians did some very bad things - as did the turks, as did the azeris etc... no one group was entirely 'in the right'. My problem lies with you taking what is obviously a pro-islamist 'manifesto' and project it as the ultimate objective of an entire ethnic group (perhaps even out of context).

 

It's incorrect to generalise to that level - there are so many shades of grey between your black and white.

 

 

The situation IS black and white, there are NO shades of grey. One side is clearly in the right and one side is clearly in the wrong.

 

Bottom line...do these people LIE or don't they? This is serious because people are being killed due to LIES.

 

Because of nato intervention, the wholesale murder of Serbs continues and their native lands are being ethnically cleansed of Serbs. It is the intention of islamic expansionists to ethnically cleanse the world of those not adhering to their sick religion. Of all people, you should realize that it was the intention of the turks, or maybe you don't think so??

[skhara]

My problem lies with you taking what is obviously a pro-islamist 'manifesto' and project it as the ultimate objective of an entire ethnic group (perhaps even out of context).

 

Nothing can be projected as the ultimate objective of an entire ethnic group. Nothing can. So one has to look at the relevace of this publication. So the first question is: Is it authentic? I see in the text, that its authenicity could be inquired about.

 

So lets say it is authentic and look further. One can never say that this publication represents the views and opinions of every single Muslim, but what is the relevance to a Serb already fearing his/her existance in this state, whether it's representative of every single Muslim or not?

 

It is documented and recorded that Serbs were terrorised by Muslim paramilitary groups in the early 90s (before the time there was any kind of organised Serbian force). This publication was not really aimed at the Muslims, it was aimed at Serbs. It is terrorism in print. There is a reason why the Muslim paramilitary groups video-taped their work, they wanted other Serbs to see their work. Through a combination of such things the goal of the Bosnian authorities was to "encourage" the Serbs to flee. And many did, they were branded "cowards". And the overwhelming majority of Serbs decided that there was no future for them in the Bosnian state, whether they chose to flee, forced to flee, or decided to stay.

 

It's incorrect to generalise to that level - there are so many shades of grey between your black and white.

 

Everything is a shade of gray. But more often than not, when it comes to making a choice, it is just black and white. One can look at the shade of gray, and decide which shade of gray it is, to make a black and white decision. For the Serbs their black and white decisions were: (Stay or Flee), and if staying (Fight or Submit).