Hellektor Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Yes, dear Hellektor. We cannot dig into the past in so called hostile lands. What is our excuse to not dig in such “friendly” lands as Iran to see where and what AVARAYR is? Nothing! Have some bucks for it? Shall we tell them: "we came here to dig for a battlefield where we decided to give you a big "Fuck Thee" and we believe we kicked your asses alright although our hope for the resurrection of the Armenian kingdom died in that same battle. So would you please allow us to find out where it was?" and let's kill the only lifeline out of a quagmire of Turks*? *Yes! Arpa-Sevan, those ungrateful "brothers" who owe their existence to us would have become "Azeri" Turks by now if it hadn't been for dear Mesrop's biggest mistake. And no! the people of the REAL Azarbaijan (Atrpatakan, Aturpatekan, Aturpayegan, Atropatene) are not Turks but Turkish speaking Iranians who lost their language under Turkish rule but kept their land with the price of changing their religion to Shiism (with all that mourning and all) to avoid being usurped and slurped by the Ottowolves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) Bucks? You mean buk-buk chick-chick? As to Avarayr... Do you have a shovel? I’ll tell you where Avarayr is supposed to be. Look here and see what was written some time ago.; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7048&hl=avarayr Once again Steve, thank you for a fascinating story. You seem to have a passion for archeology, is that a profession as well? One thing that has fascinated me is the location of the Battle of Avarayr. Of all the historical sites it seems to be one with the most detailed description. According to eyewitnesses (Yeghishe et al) it is supposed to be located at the bank of Tghmut River, which btw literally means "muddy", hence probably a very small creek. According to some sources the field of Avarayr coincides with the NW Iranian town of GaraZiaEddin of today. If you observe the map below it is directly west of Jugha/Julfa at the sothwest corner of Nakhijevan, next to that square at the top of highway 11. Move directly left from that point, at the intersection NS and EW highways is the town of GaraZiaEddin, about 2mm north of the highway sign(I think #32) designated with a white circle. It seems to be about 15 miles north of the largest city of the area, Khoy,at the bottom of the loop of route 11. What has puzzled me is that the said location, having been the best described historical site, and in a relatively less hostile territory, has never been actually investigated, not to my knowledge anyway. If the Battle of Avarayr did in fact happen and at that location one would be inclined to believe that there would be some traces and relics left be it animate(?) or inanimate. Does anyone know if the site has ever ever searched? How about it Steve? Will that be your next project? Map NW Iran; Click at the northwesternmost "horn" of Iran to get a detailed map of the area. http://www.arianews.com/iranmap/ It should not be such a difficult job since all you have to do is dig 6 bodies. Count them, six bodies. Not sixtry thousand/vatsun hazar. Vardan, his Wife Satenik, his Daughter Shushanik, Ghevont Yerets**, his wife Varsenik and his daughter Leonik. **You didn’t know that in those days vardapets and catholicoses were married? Edited January 31, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Thanks Hellector and others. The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth. Apparently it is not the time yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nvard Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 well, the funny part is that the land around Nemrut Sar was always Armenian.first it was the land of the proto-armenian speaking tribes, then Armenian kingdom or Armenian nahararutyun.But always Armenian.Who else could build that:) And who else could put Aramazd with Hercules BTW Nemrut Sar is mentioned in many Armenian myths.Sasuntsi David, for example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thanks Hellector and others. The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth. Apparently it is not the time yet... You're welcome. The history part of my post is from accurate sources, there's nothing wrong with that. If there's doubt whether the statues were built by Armenians, then I want to see which other nation uses crowns like those. To me they are definitely Armenian unless evidence is shown that proves otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thanks Hellector and others. The reason I was asking is if we have enough hard evidence we could edit the wiki article and put there the truth. Apparently it is not the time yet... Still not convinced? OK. Here the translation of the topic Commagene from page 543 of the fifth volume of the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, published in 1979 in Yerevan. I’m sure if you don’t have the set, you do have access to this book. Commagene Կոմմագենէ, Կումմախա, Կումմուխու Ancient country near the west bank of the Euphrates (part of Malatia vilayet of present day Turkey). Borders were: the Taurus Mountains to the north, Amanos Mountains and Cilicia to the west, Assyria to the south and the Euphrates to the east. Most important city was Samosat. At the end of the II millennium BC Commagene was a late Hittite (հեթիթական, հաթական, խեթական) state with a Luvian population. Situated on the crossroads of Urartian – Assyrian conflicts, Commagene has time and time again sought the protection of Urartu against Assyrian invasions. In the days of the Achaemenid Empire Commagene has been governed as a part of the Armenian Satrapy (Սատրապութիւն) later part of Yervanduni Armenian state. In the first half of the third century BC Commagene and Tsopk (Ծոփք) have created a joint state where the Yervanduni kings Samos (mid third century BC) and Arsham (from 240s to 220s BC) have ruled. At the end of the third century BC, Commagene was cut off from Tsopk (Ծոփք) and fell under Seleucids rule. In the days of Ptolemaeus’ (Պտղոմէոս) rule Commagene has regained its independence. The following rulers have ruled in Commagene successively: Ptolemaeus, ruling c. 170, independent ruler c. 163-c. 130 b.c. Samus II Theosebes Dikaios, c. 130-c. 100 Mithridates I Callinicus, c. 100-c. 70 Antiochus I Theos c. 70-c. 35 (Dates from Robert Bedrossian’s website) At the time of Tigran II the Great and Artavazd II, Commagene was a part of the Armenian state. In the second half of the first century BC Commagene has gone under Roman rule. In 72 AD, the Roman emperor Vespasian (Titus Flavius Vespasianus) dethroned the last king of Commagene, Antiochus IV Philopappos (Caius Julius Antiochus Epiphanes Philopappos), and annexed Commagene to the Assyrian province. In the Middle Ages, Commagene evolved into a center for the development of Assyrian language and literature. The invention of the Armenian alphabet is closely related to the cultural centers of Commagene. At the time of Arab-Byzantine wars, Commagene’s territory has gained strategic importance. In the eleventh century, Commagene became a part of Pilatros Varajnuni’s (Փիլատրոս Վարաժնունի) dukedom, later came under the influence of Cilician Armenian kingdom until the end of the fourteenth century. From the second half of the first millennium BC until 1915, Commagene had an Armenian population. Monuments from Hittite, Hellenistic and medieval periods (Assyrian and Armenian) abound in Commagene. The remnants of cities (Samosat, Samokert, Arshamashat, Arsamia) and temples built by Yervanduni kings of Commagene are valuable sources for the appreciation of the civilization, architecture, sculpture and religious beliefs of eastern, especially the Armenian Hellenistic period. See map on page 140 (of volume V of the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia). Sources (among others): Հայ ժողովրդի պատմութիւն, հատոր 1, Ե., 1971, բաժին Երևան: (History of Armenians Vol. 1, V., 1971, Yerevan). K. Humann, O. Puchstein, Reisen in Kleinasien und Nordsyrien, Berlin., 1890. E. Honigmann, Kommagene, Pauly’s Realencyklopädie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft, Supplementband, 4, Stuttgart, 1924. Գ. Տիրացեան. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/nemrud/nemrud_E_terrace09.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 http://www.tuluyhanugurlu.com/picture/Nemr...yhan-nemrut.JPG http://www.tuluyhanugurlu.com/English/nemrut.html his out of his mind - but again - his not a historian nor he had wished to learn or tell the truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 If there's doubt whether the statues were built by Armenians, then I want to see which other nation uses crowns like those. To me they are definitely Armenian unless evidence is shown that proves otherwise. http://www.adiyamanli.org/nemrut_pics/pic6.jpg http://www.galen-frysinger.com/turkey/nemrut01.jpg http://www3.utsidan.se/corax-e/photos%20murphy/roman.JPG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 If you closely observe the second and third photographs above, the ornamentation on Antiochus' garment somewhat resembles the 8 point star seen on Tigran the Great's crown. Though I myself don't have the data to support this at the moment, Artak Movsesian mentions the crowning of Antiochus by Tigran in the video link posted on the first page. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Հայի առաքելութիւն՝ կարգաւորել յարաբերանքը արեւելքի եւ արեւմուտքի միջեւ: Պատկեր առաջին. «Սիրելի պարսիկ՝ մենք լաւ ենք իրար հետ, խեթ աչքով մի նայիր ինձ, երբ յոյների հետ բարեկամանամ»: Պատկեր երրորդ. «Յոյն ջան, ախր մենք հնուց բարեկամներ եղել ենք, խնդրեմ հասկացիր. պարսիկների հետ խնամիական կապեր ունենք, գէշ աչքով մի նայիր մեզ»: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munch Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 By the way, he has a TV show, now online, at http://www.louysworld.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCA Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 By the way, he has a TV show, now online, at http://www.louysworld.com The Kingdom of Commagene, as well as it's predecessor Sophene is indeed an integral part of Armenian history. The first region to be exposed to Hellenization during the Alexandrian invasion, Sophene(Commagene was part of it at this time) was a province of Armenia, until detached by Seleucids and forming a seperate kingdom whose rulers . The rulers were of Orontid extraction. Later commagene was too detached and formed into a seperate kingdom c. 160 B.C. - rulers were orontid too. Antiochos was of Orontid extraction, and his artwork is of Armenian artistic origin. The Armenian Tiara he wore was and still is unique to Armenia. HE may have done this as a suzerain of tigranes, or just because he was Armenian. Commagene remained Armenian ethnically and linguistically until the end of the 1st century BC when it went through Hellenization. Even after that, they continued to use the Armenian tiara on their coinage up till the end in the 70's AD. Nercessian says the Armenian tiara may have been adopted by the Armenian rulers not only as a distinct type of dress, but also to be something common Armenians wore and could relate to, suggesting the tiara was not exclusively Royal. For more on topic see: Toumanoff, Cyril(1963) Studies in Christian Caucasian History, Georgetown University Press Bedoukian, Paul (1985). Coinage of the Armenia Kingdoms of Sophene and Commagene. Los Angeles: Armenian Numismatic Society, ISBN 0960684239. (This one is on google books: Chahin, Mark (2001). The Kingdom of Armenia. Routlege. ISBN 0700714529. ) (This too Wolfgang Haase, Hildegard Temporini (1986). Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt. Walter de Gruyter, ISBN 3110073374. ) Also see YT Nercessian - Armenian Coins and Their Values, and Armenian Numismatic Studies by same author for important article discussing Armenian tiara connection. For their coins(Sophene and Commagene) see: http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=2602 Pay attention to numerous ARMENIAN Tiaras on Commagenian coins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted September 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 turn your History international channel on it has a program on Nemrut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted September 29, 2007 Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 I can't stand to watch the "History" channel man. Not only is the programming mainly selective bias, it has recently began to favor pseudo-scientific themes for ratings' sake, notwithstanding their utter obsession with all things-within-the-material-genome-of Hitler (Have you ever noticed that yellow H in the corner...?) and the networks preoccupation with capitalizing on (Can you say the Da Vinci Code? Nights Templar? History=NY Times bestsellers) And besides, I don't like to see the heritage of my people represented as Turkish attractions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted September 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 in one hour of the program about nemrut not even a single word about Armenians or Armenia nothing 0 Zilch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted September 29, 2007 Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 Exactly. Worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted September 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 are we wrong ??? is it truly an Armenian Monument to Tigran .... cant it be just an guess made by one of our historians ?? ha w can so many arkeologist to an examination and not even say teh word Armenian ?? ok the lady that was one of the first who worked on it - was a jew the German archaeologist - was German and did not wish to say Armenian okkkkkkkkkkkk - but we Armenians are the only one who ever talks about that Nemrut Monument is Armenian ?? people who worked on the site have references form Greek / roman book's works do we Armenian have anything to show them wrong ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted September 29, 2007 Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 are we wrong ??? is it truly an Armenian Monument to Tigran .... cant it be just an guess made by one of our historians ?? ha w can so many arkeologist to an examination and not even say teh word Armenian ?? ok the lady that was one of the first who worked on it - was a jew the German archaeologist - was German and did not wish to say Armenian okkkkkkkkkkkk - but we Armenians are the only one who ever talks about that Nemrut Monument is Armenian ?? people who worked on the site have references form Greek / roman book's works do we Armenian have anything to show them wrong ?? 'do we Armenian have anything to show them wrong??' Mech@ pogh chka MosJan.Aysnuyn antarberutyan masin der jamankin Raffin ira (yete chem sxalvum) innerord hatori mej a xosum. I tarberutyun avagneri, hatkapes spyurqum medzacogh es nor serud@ inqnajanchogutyun@ u inqnahastatman pasti araj kangnelov stipvats prptumnerov a zbagvum. Dardzel a jamanaki hramayakan@ vor ancyali bac toghats@ esor inch vor dzevov lracvi... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted September 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2007 hamamit em sakayn mez shan lakoti n@man xaghatsnum en internet / tv / amsagir / amenur HakaHAykakan xosaktsutyun e otar aghbuyurnerum 100% Haykakan mi girq en tsuyts talis aselov te sa hin Hromeyakan e - yev iyteghits 1000 s@rti infarkt en stanum - amisnerov @enknum enq et hodvatsy / web siti hetevit vro irents jisht@ apatsuytsenq dartsel enq xerkatak ashxaxqi dzerq@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 turn your History international channel on it has a program on Nemrut Youe mean this Nemrut? I was searching with another purpose when I came across; Խաչիկ Դաշտենց ՌԱՆՉՊԱՐՆԵՐԻ ԿԱՆՉԸ ՆԵՄՐՈԻԹԻ ՎՐԱ Սողորդը Նեմրութ լեռան բարձրադիր լանջին էր։ Գտա իմ որոնած տունը և դուռը ծեծեցի։ — Ու՞մ ես փնտրում, — հարցրին։ — Աղբյուր Սերոբին։ — Դու սար պիտի երթաս, — ասացին։ — Ինքն էլ, Աղբյուր Սոսեն էլ սարն են See the rest here; http://armenianhouse.org/dashtents/novels-.../chapter12.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Youe mean this Nemrut? I was searching with another purpose when I came across; Խաչիկ Դաշտենց ՌԱՆՉՊԱՐՆԵՐԻ ԿԱՆՉԸ ՆԵՄՐՈԻԹԻ ՎՐԱ Սողորդը Նեմրութ լեռան բարձրադիր լանջին էր։ Գտա իմ որոնած տունը և դուռը ծեծեցի։ — Ու՞մ ես փնտրում, — հարցրին։ — Աղբյուր Սերոբին։ — Դու սար պիտի երթաս, — ասացին։ — Ինքն էլ, Աղբյուր Սոսեն էլ սարն են See the rest here; http://armenianhouse.org/dashtents/novels-.../chapter12.html Չեմ համարձակիր գրելու, քանզի վստահ չեմ: Խնդիրս սա է. կարծեմ 2 անջատ նեմրութներ կան: Մէկը Վանայ ծովի արեւելքը, միւսը Մալաթիոյ մօտ: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 (edited) Չեմ համարձակիր գրելու, քանզի վստահ չեմ: Խնդիրս սա է. կարծեմ 2 անջատ նեմրութներ կան: Մէկը Վանայ ծովի արեւելքը, միւսը Մալաթիոյ մօտ: Խնդրեմ գրիր սրանց մասին: Ինչպէս որ քո գիտանքը գերազանց է մեր բոլորի անգիտանքին/տ-գիտանքին:** ** Do you see how I go through contortions trying to avoid to use "ութիւն"? You may have already gathered my allergy to that "ութիւն" suffix just as I hate surnames like "'kurd-'oghlu'-ian", an actual so called "Armenian" ? surname. "ութիւն " is used by those who don't know the Armenian language, whwn they add "tion" to such words like "dolma/dolmation/sion. sarma/sarmasion/tion to make it sound like Armenian, which phenomonen was adopted during our Kilikian/Frankish era. Edited October 1, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 (edited) Աստուածների պանթէոն Նեմրութը հայոց Ծոփք-Կոմմագենէի տարածքում է, մինչ երկրորդը Մեծ Հայքի Տուրուբերանում, Ախլաթ գաւառի արեւելքում: Ցայսօր այս երկրորդ նեմրութի լանջին հայկական եկեղեցի մը պահուած է, իսկ գագաթին տաք ջրով մի լիճ կայ: Երկու նեմրութներն էլ պատկանում են Հայկական Տաւրոսի կամ Արեւելեան Տաւրոսի լեռնային համակարգին: Երուանդունիների տան թշնամի եղել են Արտաշէսեանները: Edited October 2, 2007 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 (edited) Մէջբերում՝ Հ.Ս.Հ. 8րդ հատոր էջ 219 Նեմրութ, բարձունք Տաւրոսի լեռնաշղթայում: XIX դ. Ն. Լեռան վրայ յայտնաբերուած է Կոմմագենէի Անտիոքոս Ա Երուանդունի թագաւորի (մ.թ.ա. 69-34) կառուցած դամբարանաբլուր-սրբավայրը, որի արեւելեան եւ արեւմտեան կողմերի արհեստական հարթակներին դրուած են արձաններ, բարձրաքանդակներով ու արձանագիր այլ կոթողներ: Հարթակներ է տանում սալայատակ ճանապարհ՝ տօնական շքերթների համար: Արձանների բարձրութիւնը հասնում է մինչեւ 8 մ, կառուցուած են կրաքարէ խոշոր վեմերից եւ պատկերում են Կոմմագենէի դիցերին ու Անտիոքոս Ա.ին՝ գահաւորակներին բազմած: Մէջտեղում Զեւս-Արամազդի արձան է, որի մի կողմից դրուած են Ապոլլոն-Միհր-Հելիոս-Հերմէսի եւ Արտագնէս-Հերակլէսի, միւս կողմից՝ Կոմմագենէ երկրի դիցուհու եւ Անտիոքոս Ա.-ի արձանները: Թագաւորը պատկերուած է հայկական՝ տիգրանեան թագով: Հարթակների երկու կողմերի պատուանդաններին բարձրացող ուղղանկիւն խոշոր սալերի վրայ քանդակուած են թագաւորի նախնիների պատկերները՝ յունական արձանագրութեամբ: Ինչպէս նաեւ թագաւորի ողջագուրման տեսարաններ Զեւս-Արամազդի, Միհր-Արեգի ու Արտագնէս-Հերակլէսի հետ: Գահաւորակների թիկունքին Անտիոքոս Ա դրոշմել է յունական մի մեծ արձանագրութիւն, որտեղ հիմնաւորում է դամբարան-սրբավայրի կառուցման անհրաժեշտութիւնը, ազդարարում իր ու նախնիների պաշտամունքի ստեղծումը եւ դրա հետ կապուած մի շարք միջոցառումներ: Արձանագրութիւնները վկայում են, որ Կոմմագենէի թագաւորական տունը սերում է երուանդունիներից, եւ մ.թ.ա. IV-III դդ. Կոմմագենէն Հայաստանի մաս է կազմել: Սրբավայրը, որպէս հարուստ եւ կարեւոր աղբիւր, բացառիկ նշանակութիւն ունի արեւելեան հելլենիզմի եւ Հայաստանի հելլենիստական դարաշրջանի պատմութեան ու մշակոյթի ուսումնասիրման համար: Վերջ մէջբերման: Edited October 2, 2007 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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