Arbitrary Censorship

[Verginne]

I made you posts invisable, not QueBeceR, and you will get a warning for posting them back!!!

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Article 19 of the United Nations UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS decrees:

 

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

 

I hope that there will be no reportable violatations or that moderators will not set aside the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This organization may be vital to us some day soon.

[Verginne]

Like it or not, Edward, there is a war between the jews and Armenians, and it is foolish to think that you can sit on the fence and play moderate and win the acceptance of both sides or that you will win the jews over to our side or keep Armenians looking all tolerant and reasonable just to do a Neville Chamberlain pacification of the enemy. No, in keeping silent and continuing to allow the jews to work against us while we beg for bones and smile sweetly like a prostitute hoping for a customer, we become pathetic LOSERS.

 

So if you want to step in front of the jews and take the bullets, slings and arrows of truth meant for them, that is your choice. But know this, Edward, you cannot defend the indefensible. If you are a friend of the jews then you are an enemy of Armenians. That is not my opinion. That is a fact, and you can insult and deride and try to silence me all you want and shoot the messenger for saying it, but nothing will change the facts.

[ED]

If you read that declaration cheerfully it states and should be obvious, freedom of speech is conducted, respected and valued as long as it is done in a civilized manner and behavior, hate and intolerance to any race and nationality is NOT a united nation intend nor it advocates hate, bigotry, what ever you wish to blurt out….. That’s not a freedom of speech! And certainly is not tolerated here in this forum

 

I’m sure there are several suitable forums in which you can express your views and hate, to Jews and fellow Armenians.

 

Bon voyage

[Verginne]

If you read that declaration cheerfully it states and should be obvious, freedom of speech is conducted, respected and valued as long as it is done in a civilized manner and behavior, hate and intolerance to any race and nationality is NOT a united nation intend nor it advocates hate, bigotry, what ever you wish to blurt out….. That’s not a freedom of speech! And certainly is not tolerated here in this forum

 

I’m sure there are several suitable forums in which you can express your views and hate, to Jews and fellow Armenians.

 

Bon voyage

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Bon vpyage yerself.

 

hate intolerance bigotry.........ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATION

 

You are a bigot and you are totally intolerant of truth. A reminder:

 

It is so typical for fearful, uninformed individuals to label those they disagree with and want to silence as racists, and call their statements racist hate, but your accusations don't stick. It is apparent your concern is for “appearances” rather than TRUTH. Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps you are an intolerant bigot? What would be your motivation for keeping our hands tied behind our backs in the face of an intractable, chauvinistic and criminal enemy when the best defense is a good offense, when the fact of the matter is that the only thing that is going to make them stop is to expose them because the thing they fear the most is exposure. The days of attacking Armenians and calling them all kinds of absurd names in order to defend the jews is soooo over with. So I will kindly ask you not to accuse me of anything as mindless as racism or racist hate when I am telling the truth about something and you know nothing about me. Instead, try looking for facts to support your argument rather than threats and slander.

 

Accusing me of racism and racist hate is an absurd statement unworthy of you. Does your idea of board guidelines involve slandering me, Edward? Your accusations are irrational. If you can provide me evidence that one, just one people, other than turks, which includes their azeri cousins, does MORE and/or the same harm to the Armenian cause than the jews, then I shall NEVER say another word about jews on the Hye Forum.

 

I REPEAT

 

Like it or not, Edward, there is a war between the jews and Armenians, and it is foolish to think that you can sit on the fence and play moderate and win the acceptance of both sides or that you will win the jews over to our side or keep Armenians looking all tolerant and reasonable just to do a Neville Chamberlain pacification of the enemy. No, in keeping silent and continuing to allow the jews to work against us while we beg for bones and smile sweetly like a prostitute hoping for a customer, we become pathetic LOSERS.

[Sip]

There's no war between the jews and Armenians. It's only in your head. The Armenians are too insignificant for the jews to care about. You are making us sound more important in the world than we actually are.

[armjan]

What war? What are the armenians fighting with the Jews over?

 

I would say that a better characterization is that every nationality looks for the interests of itself, beyond that, I am not aware of any cultural wars.

 

As far as the freedom of xxxx, try to blurt out things at your workplace that are not favorable and are derogatory of the organization and you will experience unemployment.

there are addendums/exceptions/and other conditions to any generalization!

 

You are being unreasonably rude to Edward.

Edited June 23, 2005 by armjan

[Verginne]

There's no war between the jews and Armenians. It's only in your head. The Armenians are too insignificant for the jews to care about. You are making us sound more important in the world than we actually are.

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Sure, sure...the Armenians are insignificant to the jews. That's why when the US Congress was all ready to pass the Armenian Genocide Resolution, Shimon Peres got on the phone and told Bill Clinton to kill it, much the way the jewish lobbies had been trying to influence individual members of Congress.

 

Do you really want me to prove what I say? I can...I have tons of articles that I would just LOVE to post here.

 

Otherwise you are just trolling. Try looking for some facts to support you statements. Good luck buddy.

[Sip]

...when the US Congress was all ready to pass the Armenian Genocide Resolution, Shimon Peres got on the phone and told Bill Clinton to kill it ...

 

And I am the one trolling?

[vava]

Verginee - when are you going to stop your copy-paste antics?

 

War? Dude, you have a vivd imagination.

There is no justification for blind hate on the basis of race. Did you ever stop to think that your views run a striking parallel to those of the actual perpetrators of the AG? You're just like them! Full of hate & loathing, always ready to lash out.... it's quite pathetic. I feel sorry for you. You need some help.

[Verginne]

Verginee - when are you going to stop your copy-paste antics?

 

You mean that I slightly modified what I wrote to you and sent it to Edward? What I said I said perfectly and your position is absolutely INDEFENSIBLE.

 

War? Dude, you have a vivd imagination.

 

What kind of Armenian doesn't know I'm NOT a dude, that's a woman's name.

 

There is no justification for blind hate on the basis of race.

 

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

Did you ever stop to think that your views run a striking parallel to those of the actual perpetrators of the AG? You're just like them! Full of hate & loathing, always ready to lash out.... it's quite pathetic. I feel sorry for you. You need some help.

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Truth = hate, that's what the perpetrators of the AG say and that's what you say. I find that very interesting. Do you even know who the perpetrators of the AG are? Is it necessary for me and other posters to educate you? I should be most glad to do so.

 

You are GUILTY yet you accuse. I hate no one. Hate is a waste of energy.

 

You obviously haven't read a word I said. Give it a try. Go back and read what I wrote.

Edited June 23, 2005 by Verginne

[Sasun]

Well, Verginne, if there is a war how come you are the only one seeing it? I would think most people would acknowledge a war between Jews and Armenians if such existed. Sure there is an Israely and Jewish lobby denial of AG, but that is not a war, that is politics and it is deplorable. Everyone on the board would agree to that because it is a fact. But you are constantly trying to portray a quite exaggerated view of the real picture, and whoever disagrees seems to be a lesser Armenian or even a traitor in your eyes.

[armjan]

Aside from the conversation above,

 

 

hate often compells people to work harder and do some extra ordinary things in the face of competition.

 

Is hate always bad/negative thing?

is hate ever justified?

Are feelings of hate necessary for survival? is it a defensive mechanism against the uncertainties and inconsistencies of life?

If we didn't experience hate, would we be able to appreciate love?

 

ok, i'm going to stop now...

Edited June 23, 2005 by armjan

[Sip]

Hate is absolutely a bad thing. It is never good.

[Z'areh]

anoosh verginne, you are mixing up the right to freedom of speech with the abuse of freedom of speech, no declaration of the United Nation permits the insult of another nation by hiding behind this freedom which you talk about.

 

If a Jewish organization or the State of Israel collaborates with the Turkish government we should discuss it by all means, as we should discuss numerous other dirty politics by the British or any other entity, but to consider every Cohen and Aaronovitz who live down the street as enemies of Armenians is the kind of warfare that demands pointy hoods. We are not interested in that.

 

Those who muddy the issue of who the perpetrators of the AG were are simply playing in the hands of our enemies. The State of the Ottoman empire committed these crimes, and the issue should be addressed by the heirs of that Empire, on a state level. those who advocate the diminution of such a crime from a State down to mere individuals (because of their Jewish blood or whatever) are simply giving a hand in abdication of Turkish responsibility. They are diluting the enormity of the State's crime by shifting it to some sort of secret Jewish societies, as if to say the Turkish intelligentsia was powerless against those who "kidnapped" the leadership of the Ottoman Empire, to commit their dirty deeds. This is an aversion from the main focus and those who trumpet such aversions are pursuing other interests.

Edited June 23, 2005 by Z'areh

[Verginne]

The Secret Jews,

Joachim Prinz, 1973, pp. 111-122

 

[in December 1686, more than three hundred families converted to Islam in Salonika. Like Shabtai and other Marranos, they continued to attend Jewish services secretly and observed certain Jewish customs in their homes.]

 

...

 

[This was the origin of the most important group, numerically and historically, of Islamic Marranos. The faithful Mohammedans call these hidden Jews 'doenmehs', the renegades. Over the years the 'doenmeh' movement became firmly established in Asia Minor. In the nineteenth century the sect was estimated to have twenty thousand members. Salonikare-mained its main seat until that city became Greek in 1913. Although the Jewish community remained there under Greek rule, the 'doenmehs' moved to Constantinople.]

 

...

 

[i shall meticulously adhere to the customs of the Turks so as not to arose their suspicion. I shall not only observe the Fast of Ramadan but all the other Muslim customs which are observed in public.]

 

...

 

[From time to time the Turkish governors of Salonika, who received complaints about the sect from the Mohammedan clergy, tried to investigate the strange existence of the 'doenmehs'. Their clannishness, their refusal to mingle with Mohammedan families, and their marital restrictions had become a well-known fact, difficult to hide from the majority of the people among whom they had lived for many generations. Socially, they seemed impenetrable, although in their Moslem religious practices they were beyond reproach. In fact, they often seemed even more devout followers of the Prophet Mohammed and more sincere worshipers of Allah than the rest of the community. They fasted during Ramadan, and their leaders and adherents were found in large, even conspicuous numbers among the pilgrims to Mecca.]

 

...

 

[The revolt of the Young Turks in 1908 against the authoritarian regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid began among the intellectuals of Salonika. It was from there that the demand for a constitutional regime originated. Among the leaders of the revolution which resulted in a more modern government in Turkey were Djavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Both were ardent 'doenmehs'. Djavid Bey became minister of finance; Mustafa Kemal became the leader of the new regime and he adopted the name of Ataturk. His opponents tried to use his 'doenmeh' background to unseat him, but without success. Too many of the Young Turks in the newly formed revolutionary Cabinet prayed to Allah, but had as their real prophet Shabtai Zvi, the Messiah of Smyrna.]

 

...

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Dönme also spelled DÖNMEH (Turkish: "Convert"), Jewish sect founded in Salonika (now Thessaloníki, Greece) in the late 17th century, after the conversion to Islam of Shabbetai Tzevi, whom the sectarians believed to be the Messiah. The Dönme, who numbered about 15,000 in the late 20th century, are found primarily in Istanbul, Edirne, and Izmir, Turkey.]

 

...

 

[shabbetai Tzevi had proclaimed himself the Messiah in 1648 and quickly gained financial support and a considerable following among Jews throughout the Holy Land, Europe, and North Africa. Early in 1666 he was arrested by Ottoman Turks and, faced with the choice of conversion or death, accepted Islam by the end of the year. The Dönme believed that the conversion of Shabbetai Tzevi was a step in the fulfillment of the messianic prophecy. They therefore also converted to Islam but secretly practiced various Judaic rites. Although they remained apart from the larger Jewish community, they preserved some knowledge of Hebrew, kept secret Hebrew names, forbade intermarriage with the Muslim population, and conducted their marriage and funeral rites in secret. As the Dönme remained secretive and lived in separate quarters, they were not generally noticed by the Muslims.]

 

...

 

[At the turn of the 20th century, the Dönme, well represented in the professional classes, took active part in the Young Turk movement and the revolution of 1908. After the Greco-Turkish War of 1921-22, the central Dönme community of Thessaloníki was moved to Istanbul]

 

...

 

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/a...1+30930,00.html

 

Young Turks and the Armenian Genocide

 

[The Young Turks were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide.]

 

[To consolidate Turkish rule in the remaining territories of the Ottoman Empire and to expand the state into the so-called Turanian lands in the east, most held by Iran and Russia, the CUP devised in secret a program for the extermination of the Armenian population. From the viewpoint of Ittihadist ideology and its new and ambitious foreign policy, the Armenians represented a completely vulnerable population straddling an area of major strategic value for its Pan-Turanian goals. Ottoman misrule had made the Armenians, a prosperous minority despite its political disadvantages, sympathetic to Russia. To the Ittihadists, the global crisis of 1914 represented a rare opportunity to change the fortunes of the Ottoman state and to use the cover of war to embark upon a policy of both internal and external social engineering the likes of which had not been attempted or imagined. Once again they gambled on the element of surprise, subterfuge, and radical daring, this time against a civilian minority population.]

 

...

 

[The main thrust of the Armenian Genocide, however, was implemented within the first year of the war, years ahead of any imminent collapse. While the mass deportations of the civilian Armenian population was carried out in the spring and summer of 1915 and were completed by the fall, the systematic slaughter of the Armenians had started earlier with the murder of the able-bodied males already drafted into the Ottoman armed forces. By expropriating the movable and immovable wealth of the Armenians, the CUP also looked upon its policy of genocide as a means for enriching its coffers and rewarding its cohorts. The elimination of a commercially viable minority fulfilled part of the nationalist program to concentrate financial power in the hands of the state and promote greater Turkish control over the domestic economy.]

 

...

 

[in his capacity as the Deputy Commander-in-Chief (the honorary command being reserved for the sovereign), Enver exercised ultimate control over the Ottoman armies which carried out major atrocities, first in 1915 and then with renewed vigor when Turkish forces broke the Russian line in 1918 and invaded the Caucasus. The forces under the command of his brother, Nuri, and uncle, Halil, spread devastation through Russian Armenia and carried out massacres of Armenians all the way to Baku.]

 

...

 

[Talaat as Minister of the Interior in Istanbul ran the government for a figurehead grand vizier. He was the mastermind of the Armenian Genocide and coordinated the various agencies of the Ottoman government required for the deportation, expropriation, and extermination of the Armenians.]

 

...

 

[Jemal ... As commander of Syria, the concentration camps and extermination sites fell within his jurisdiction.]

 

...

 

[beyond the government ministries, the CUP also operated secret groups for the purpose of infiltrating enemy territory and for promoting Pan-Turkism in neighboring countries. The most infamous of its operations was the Teshkilâti Mahsusa, Special Organization, composed of outlaws especially recruited to carry out the CUP secret agenda. The high purpose of their mission was evidenced by their disposition at the command of two major CUP ideologues, Dr. Nazim and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir, both of them medical professionals, the prime organizers of the on-site implementation of the Armenian Genocide. Lastly, the CUP entrusted local command of the genocidal process to the provincial valis, or governors-general, who were made responsible for the execution of Talaat's and Enver's orders.]

 

NOTE: In his book "Four Years Under the Crescent", Raphael De Nogalis refferes to Talaat as "The renegade jew from Salonika".

 

AF

 

...

 

—Rouben Paul Adalian

 

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/en...young_turks.htm

 

 

 

============

 

The founders of pan-Turkism.

 

In the book:

Pan-Turkism

From Irredentism to Cooperation

by JACOB M. LANDAU

 

Link: http://www.hurstpub.co.uk/1998/greece/pant.htm

we read that:

The three founders of the pan-Turkism are:

1. Pan-Turkism was first called for in the 1860s by a Hungarian Zionist named Arminius Vambery, who had become an adviser to the sultan, but who secretly worked for Lord Palmerston and the British Foreign Office. Vambery later tried to broker a deal between the Zionist leader Theodor Herzl and the sultan, over the creation of Israel.

 

2. The Jewish French writer, Leon Cahun who formed and propagated pan-Turkism in his book:

Introduction al'Histoire de l'Asie, Turcs, et Mongols, des ...

 

3. Arthur L. David, a British Jew who in his book tried to give the Turks a superiority myth.

 

Young Turks:

In October 1843, twelve German-Jewish immigrants met on New York’s Lower East Side to help others like themselves. Pooling their ideas and their funds, they founded what would become the most enduring service organization for the Zionist identity in the United States. Its name—B’nai B’rith, "Children of the Covenant".

 

The founder of the Young Turks was a Jewish Italian B'nai B'rith official named Emmanuel Carasso. Carasso set up the Young Turk secret society in the 1890s in Salonika, then part of Turkey, and now part of Greece. Carasso was also the grand master of an Italian masonic lodge there, called "Macedonia Resurrected." The lodge was the headquarters of the Young Turks, and all the top Young Turk leadership were members.

 

Press

Another important area was the press. While in power, the Young Turks ran several newspapers, including The Young Turk, whose editor was none other than the Russian Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky. Jabotinsky had been educated as a young man in Italy. He later described Mazzini's ideas as the basis for the Zionist movement.

 

Jabotinsky arrived in Turkey shortly after the Young Turks seized power, to take over the paper. The paper was owned by a member of the Turkish cabinet, but it was funded by the Russian Zionist federation, and managed by B'nai B'rith. The editorial policy of the paper was overseen by a Dutch Zionist named Jacob Kann, who was the personal banker of the king and queen of the Netherlands.

 

Jabotinsky later created the most anti-Arab of all the Zionist organizations, the Irgun. His followers in Israel today are the ones most violently opposed to the Peres-Arafat peace accords.

 

also taken from this site:

 

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/co...994_brewda.html

[Z'areh]

The Secret Jews,

Joachim Prinz, 1973, pp. 111-122

 

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and I repeat,

Those who muddy the issue of who the perpetrators of the AG were are simply playing in the hands of our enemies. The State of the Ottoman empire committed these crimes, and the issue should be addressed by the heirs of that Empire, on a state level. those who advocate the diminution of such a crime from a State down to mere individuals (because of their Jewish blood or whatever) are simply giving a hand in abdication of Turkish responsibility. They are diluting the enormity of the State's crime by shifting it to some sort of secret Jewish societies, as if to say the Turkish intelligentsia was powerless against those who "kidnapped" the leadership of the Ottoman Empire, to commit their dirty deeds. This is an aversion from the main focus and those who trumpet such aversions are pursuing other interests.

[Anoushik]

hate and intolerance to any race and nationality is NOT a united nation intend nor it advocates hate, bigotry, what ever you wish to blurt out….. That’s not a freedom of speech! And certainly is not tolerated here in this forum

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Can I hate the Turks?

[armjan]

Can I hate the Turks?

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hate what they have done

a little bit of hate makes the world go round...

[Anoushik]

The Armenians are too insignificant for the jews to care about. You are making us sound more important in the world than we actually are.

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I don't agree. Is it the reason why Dateline decided to "report" about the Armenian Terrorists the week that Erdogan was here? How about never once mentioning about the massive Armenian protests organized all-over the world on April 24, 2005 on any major news network, other than the local news? We live in information age yet the events on April 24 this year were never talked about. How about TIME distributing the Turkish DVD in Europe? We all know that the majority of media's leaders are Jews. It is not a hidden fact and I shouldn't be made ashamed to talk about it. Looking at the U.S. media treatment regarding the Armenians, I'd say the Armenians and our causes are very important to the Jews.

[Anoushik]

hate what they have done

a little bit of hate makes the world go round...

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...and what they continue to be doing...

[Anoushik]

Sure there is an Israely and Jewish lobby denial of AG, but that is not a war, that is politics and it is deplorable.

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Sasun, same can be said about Turkey and the Turks. Most Turks haven't even heard about the Armenians, and 100,000 Armenians go to Turkey every year to work. There is no war between the Turks and the Armenians. The war is the politics between the two countries, right? You are right, we shouldn't exaggerate, but you have to wonder that something is going on.

[Sip]

Can I hate the Turks?

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Hate Tomatos if you must.

[Accelerated]

Hate Tomatos if you must.

 

....or cheeseheads.

[Z'areh]

We all know that the majority of media's leaders are Jews. It is not a hidden fact and I shouldn't be made ashamed to talk about it. Looking at the U.S. media treatment regarding the Armenians, I'd say the Armenians and our causes are very important to the Jews.

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Not only we should not be ashamed to talk about it but fight against it as effectively as possible, but spewing hatred against every Shlomo, Solomon and Salome will get us nowhere, on the contrary it will make us look like losers and the Turkish/Israeli alliance will get even cozier.

 

This constant talk of perceived Jewishness of the leaders of the CUP and that Jews committed the AG, is not understanding the Ottoman reality and is great way to put ourselves in a position of being losers.

 

The origins of a group of people, Young Turks, is irrelevant. They were comprised of many different nationalities and religious affiliations. The CUP leaders acted in the name of Ottoman Empire not the inexistent State of Israel.

 

Today’s politics has brought them closer and therefore there is this huge Jewish obstacles against us currently, should we fight against it? You bet!

[vava]

Agreed Zareh... unsubstanciated, frothing-at-the-mouth hatred makes us look like fanatical fools. Armenians, for the small size of their minority, have a tremendous voice. We should be exploiting that by taking the high ground, and demonstrating strong moral fibre, rather than sabotaging our efforts with Nazi-esque rants, screaming belligerently about some ill-perceived 'TRUTH', making us look like fanatics.