Turks - 90 Years And Still In Denial

[Nakharar]

Actually, was that debt per se? Or was it merely buying off and nationalising foreign investment, as were the capitulations, something overseas colonies didn't do when proclaiming their independence?

 

I was just making a point. No need for semantics.

[phantom22]

The Past, the Present. Unless Turkey makes peace with its past, and becomes an open true democracy, she will not enter the EU. The first steps she can take is to accept the history of the Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians within her borders.

In the US, Mexican and Native American settlements bring in large tourist dollars, while Turkey allows these cultural resources to melt into dust or be destroyed.

 

The Armenian struggle will also make Turkey a better place for all the Turks, but they are blind to this. Only when she comes to face her past and her present can she truly join Europe. Since the 1920's, she has been living with blinders on. Only in Turkey could the revelation that Ataturk's adopted daugher was Armenian cause a national uproar.

[gamavor]

One cannot claim inheritance of the actives as patrimony and deny or refuse to accept the passives. No such thing under the Sun! It comes as a package.

 

Internal Turkish revolution has no or little meaning to the Genocide. Turkish revolution after WWI was strictly turkish business. Turks fought against the Enttante during a course of a War to which Turkey was Allied force. Naturally, during a war you have to fight, not necessarily because someone is trying to hijack your country, but because it is a war and each war has victors and losers. Turkey lost the War. The Sevres treaty was the verdict against Allied forces.

 

Turkish revolutions, which lead to Attaturk Republic, were result of the defeat of the Ottomans.

[phantom]

QUOTE:

1. Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire?

 

2. Turkey is responsible for the Genocide of 1915, because Genocide took place in Turkey during young Turk regime, which was the path for the new Turkish Republic, as much as it was the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terraki member. On the other hand, Ottoman empire is directly responsible for the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 which took place under Abdul Hamit II reign.

 

**

REPLY:

Turkey isn't the successor of Ottoman Empire, Turkish Republic was established on Ottoman lands after Ottoman died, and the people of Turkish republic got those lands making war with attackers (Englishs, Frenchs, Greeks.. ect). Those lands weren't inheritance of Ottomans to Turkish Republic. Turkish people who lived in Ottoman lands weren't satisfied by Ottoman Administrator. And Turkey Founder(Ataturk) and Ottoman administrator were strongly in disagreement in ideologies and many issues. Plus, Ittihad and Terakki groups defense Ottoman's administrator and its existance and continuousness. So ATATURK CANNOT BE THE MEMBER OF THIS GROUP AS THEIR IDEOLOGIES WERE DIFFERENT.

 

Moreover, Ataturk says that: 'Turkey comes into existence from TURKISH PEOPLE WHO ESTABLISHED TURKISH REPUBLIC'

That shows THE BIG DIFFERENCE between them (Ottomans-Turkish People in Turkey) as they both are turks. So DO NOT confuse turks who live in Turkey, with Ottomans. Because those people, were struggling against Ottomans, inside. On the other hand, they were trying to defense the lands where they live in against attackers.

 

After all these, how can Turkey continue Ottomans? Their races sameness still doesn't show that Turkey must be accused by Ottomans issues.

When this FIRST armenian issue was formed, Turkey wasn't established yet. So Turkey cannot be responsible of Ottomans epoche. Meaning, Turkey isn't involved into this so-called armenian genocide.

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I suppose your thesis begs the question: If modern Turkey is not the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, then why does modern Turkey spend so much time, effort, money and human and political capital on denying that the Ottoman Empire committed Genocide? After all, Armenians are not accusing modern Turkey of Genocide, we are accusing the Ottoman Empire of Genocide. Modern Turkey only implicates itself and aligns itself with the perpetrators by futily denying this fact rather than aligning itself with the righteous examples of its nation who saved Armenian lives during the Genocide.

[skhara]

Bestekar, your  name fits you  to a tee as a composer and a fabricator. First off, as suggested by many here we do not debate the facts of the Genocide. WE have said everything there is to say and the facts speak for themselves. It is now the turn of the Turks, whoever the hell they may be,

As usual you are a little tardy, too late. The French word for late is “retard”. Your above offer is so bayat/stale that it stinks. You are late and you missed the boat and now you and your ilk are sinking and in doing so you are attempting to cling to a straw. First off; Are you an officer of the government? Is your offer official? When I say “late” I mean; During the 80’s and the 90’s some Armenians, whether in official capacity or not made and offer to blame the whole thing on the Ottomans and absolve modern Turks, just like the Germans did.  Of course ,unlike the Turks the Germans are a civilized people except when at times they may heed to a bastard of a turk like "itler" aka Hitler whose great great great grandmother

was raped by a turk at the gates of Vienna and eventually produced such a monster. A "monster"? Not in the turkish vocabulary! At the present there may be 70 million "hitlers" living in OUR ancestral lands.

At that time Turks dismissed the offer right out of hand and did not even consider it, they stuck to the only word they know how to spell- D E N Y. In  case you need a translation look up “inkar”

Of course, those were other times. There virtually was no Armenia, and the Turks were betting on that in a few more years there would be no Armenian left, and no one to remember. Guess what! There is an Armenia now,  it is not going anywhere, and we all remember. Is that why the Turks are running around like a chicken (turkey) with its head cut ofF!

During those heady years there were those of us so called Christian Armenians who would suggest that the good Christians that we are we should “forgive and forget”. Yes, we Christians and we live by the Golden Rule  which goes something like “do unto others as you would others do unto you”. Opne the Bible , I mean the New Testament and read Matthew Chapter 7 verse 1. The way I read the quote is “do unto others as they did to you”. And you better believe it; We will do to them as they did to us”. Don’t you forget that!

Do read the New Testament and learn that there is more  to a religion than circumcision. Too bad thatb that sheikh did not have a sharp enough knife to mutilate it more radically so as there would not be any future generations.

Yes you ! Sikbash!!

Ottoman bokhoman, turkman bokman, you can have it.  Many birds have come and gone, this turkey will go the way of the dodo too.

You may have forgotten that we are not the "haqqi millet" any more. We are not the "loyal minority", neither are we the "raya", the "herd of sheep". We are a nation and as such we will only deal with legitimate nations, not with a bunch of turkic nomads who belong in the deserts of Central Asia, that is if the Chinese will readmit them.

The Ottomans were thrown out of Europe, next they will be thrown out of our ancestral lands, out of Asia Minor to go back to Asia Major where they came from or back to anayin amina.

 

Pull your “tuman” up and get the sik out of here and take your otuman offer with you!

 

WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!

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[Esayan]

Look my friend, even your politicians contradict with themselves when this issue is discussed. Just a couple of days ago, pm Erdogan said "we do not refuse our ancestors" Check Milliyet newspaper april 27. Your politicians acknowledge who their ancestors are. If you refuse the truth, that is your personal opinion. Do not mix it up with facts.

 

Turkey isn't the successor of Ottoman Empire, Turkish Republic was established on Ottoman lands after Ottoman died, and the people of Turkish republic got those lands making war with attackers (Englishs, Frenchs, Greeks.. ect).

 

I thought it was wrong when one of the members of this forum called you a retarded, but if you really think that Turkey had beaten English, French, and Italians by itself, you are seriously retarded. Just so you know, they retreated when they realized Anatolia was not worth keeping in the expense of loosing the other colonies (especially middle eastern Arab countries with rich oil reserves.) I can see how you are misinformed though, starting from 4th grade, Turkish history books teach children that Armenians filled the mosques with Turks and burned them alive (despite the truth is otherwise.) You are naturally one of those posioned children.

 

Plus, Ittihad and Terakki groups defense Ottoman's administrator and its existance and continuousness. So ATATURK CANNOT BE THE MEMBER OF THIS GROUP AS THEIR IDEOLOGIES WERE DIFFERENT.

 

Again if you dont know anything about your history, it is pointless to discuss. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terakki member. You cannor deny it, it is a historical fact. Plus, Ittihad and Terakki was the responsible party to overthrow Sultan Abdul Hamit, so how is it possible that they "defended" the Ottoman administration?

I guess that is why Talat ***** has a monument in istanbul which was put up after an impressive ceremony years ago.

 

Moreover, Ataturk says that: 'Turkey comes into existence from TURKISH PEOPLE WHO ESTABLISHED TURKISH REPUBLIC' That shows THE BIG DIFFERENCE between them (Ottomans-Turkish People in Turkey) as they both are turks.

 

I dont give a flying f.ck about what he says, nor does the world. This is not Ankara. Just so you are informed: after the Genocide and 1.WW, many Armenian survivors did return to Anatolia to their homes. When the Kemalist forces took over the control of Turkey and attacked the first Armenian Republic, they butchered the Armenian refugees on their way. This is the founder of the modern Turkey.

 

So DO NOT confuse turks who live in Turkey, with Ottomans. Because those people, were struggling against Ottomans, inside. On the other hand, they were trying to defense the lands where they live in against attackers.

 

Yeah, after all that is said, that is a real valuable analysis. Again, this is a typical propaganda that is fed to Turkish children.

 

After all these, how can Turkey continue Ottomans? Their races sameness still doesn't show that Turkey must be accused by Ottomans issues.

When this FIRST armenian issue was formed, Turkey wasn't established yet. So Turkey cannot be responsible of Ottomans epoche. Meaning, Turkey isn't involved into this so-called armenian genocide

 

I said : "Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire?" You refused this without giving me your reasoning, probably you have no idea what I am talking about. You can go talk to your president Ahmed Necded Sezer if you need more info on this.

 

Just as one of the other members said, if Armenia starts a nuclear strike against Turkey today, and few days later it changes its administration, the new administration wont be responsible for the crime... Is this your reasoning?

After killing that many people, it is easy to say "Yurtta sulh, cihanda sulh." You have to clean up the mess you caused first.

 

By the way, Armenia, Armenian, and Armenian Genocide are written with capital letters you ignorant idiot. Armenian Genocide is the biggest pain of Armenian people, far more than it is a political issue. So, learn to show respect and do not put an idiotic "so-called" word in front of it. As said before it is a historical fact. We dont say "so-called turkey" do we?

Edited April 30, 2005 by Esayan

[Nakharar]

Isn't it bizarre. He disappeared, because he can't come up with something intelligent to say.

[armjan]

Look my friend, even your politicians contradict with themselves when this issue is discussed. Just a couple of days ago, pm Erdogan said "we do not refuse our ancestors" Check Milliyet newspaper april 27. Your politicians acknowledge who their ancestors are. If you refuse the truth, that is your personal opinion. Do not mix it up with facts.

I thought it was wrong when one of the members of this forum called you a retarded, but if you really think that Turkey had beaten English, French, and Italians by itself, you are seriously retarded. Just so you know, they retreated when they realized Anatolia was not worth keeping in the expense of loosing the other colonies (especially middle eastern Arab countries with rich oil reserves.) I can see how you are misinformed though, starting from 4th grade, Turkish history books teach children that Armenians filled the mosques with Turks and burned them alive (despite the truth is otherwise.) You are naturally one of those posioned children.

Again if you dont know anything about your history, it is pointless to discuss. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terakki member. You cannor deny it, it is a historical fact. Plus, Ittihad and Terakki was the responsible party to overthrow Sultan Abdul Hamit, so how is it possible that they "defended" the Ottoman administration?

I guess that is why Talat ***** has a monument in istanbul which was put up after an impressive ceremony years ago.

I dont give a flying f.ck about what he says, nor does the world. This is not Ankara. Just so you are informed: after the Genocide and 1.WW, many Armenian survivors did return to Anatolia to their homes. When the Kemalist forces took over the control of Turkey and attacked the first Armenian Republic, they butchered the Armenian refugees on their way. This is the founder of the modern Turkey.

Yeah, after all that is said, that is a real valuable analysis. Again, this is a typical propaganda that is fed to Turkish children.

I said : "Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire?" You refused this without giving me your reasoning, probably you have no idea what I am talking about. You can go talk to your president Ahmed Necded Sezer if you need more info on this.

 

Just as one of the other members said, if Armenia starts a nuclear strike against Turkey today, and few days later it changes its administration, the new administration wont be responsible for the crime... Is this your reasoning?

After killing that many people, it is easy to say "Yurtta sulh, cihanda sulh."  You have to clean up the mess you caused first.

 

By the way, Armenia, Armenian, and Armenian Genocide are written with capital letters you ignorant idiot. Armenian Genocide is the biggest pain of Armenian people, farmore than it is a political issue. So, learn to show respect and do not put an idiotic "so-called" word. As said before it is a historical fact.

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you are unstoppable!

[Esayan]

Isn't it bizarre. He disappeared, because he can't come up with something intelligent to say.

 

Beste is a girls name, Nakharar.

 

you are unstoppable!

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Makes you scream sometimes

Edited April 30, 2005 by Esayan