Maral Posted April 21, 2005 Report Share Posted April 21, 2005 Let us assume for a moment that Turkey, in all its wisdom, has decided to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Keeping in mind the geopolitical situation of the region, the US military base in Ankara, the 70 million or so Turks compared to the 4 million or so in Armenians and that fact that both Turkey and Armenia are for all intents and purposes, financially bankrupt. What do you think the Armenians should do ? Demand land back ? Demand financial restitutions ? (much like the Jews and Germans did) Forgive them for we are Christians ? Other ? If so, why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Forgive them for we are Christians ? Other ? so if i'm not Christian- then I have no need to Forgive yes ??? Iys orvane yes K@rakapasht em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Demand land and money... We cannot forgive them even though we are majoritarily christian. Because if we simply forgive them, all the work that was done and money that was used to make Turkey recognize the Genocide would be wasted for nothing. If we do get back Western Armenia or parts of it, Turks should only be encouraged, and not forced, to leave. The money (equivalent to Armenian property before the Genocide) should be paid to Spurkahyes, who choose to settle in those lands. That way, Armenians can become some day a majority in Western Armenia. Historical monuments in the rest of Turkey should also be treated properly, and Armenia should have normal relations with Turkey. But the thing between Armenians and Turks will never stop. Armenians can never trust Turkey, because that's what they did in 1908, when the Young Turks came to power. Teach Armenian christianity and language to Hamshentsis (1 million and +) and to Turkified Armenians (?00 000), so that they return to be Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I have no problem forgiving Turks! Not at all .. that is if they ratify Sevres treaty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I think the most realistic thing that can be accomplished is to demand reparations for the lost properties because sovereignity transfer is impossible. Those who still have their title deeds can challenge them in the courts. I remember reading in AZG that a Lebanese Armenian went to the Turkish courts with his title deed and won. If we choose to go for class action suits in the European Court of Human Rights to which Turkey is accountable we can get things going for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I think the most realistic thing that can be accomplished is to demand reparations for the lost properties because sovereignity transfer is impossible.style_images/master/snapback.png pardomn my ignorance, but what stops us from doing exactly this? why is the official recoginition a pre-requisite to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Yes, you are right. There is no prerequisite in order to take these actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Demand land and money... We cannot forgive them even though we are majoritarily christian. Because if we simply forgive them, all the work that was done and money that was used to make Turkey recognize the Genocide would be wasted for nothing. If we do get back Western Armenia or parts of it, Turks should only be encouraged, and not forced, to leave. The money (equivalent to Armenian property before the Genocide) should be paid to Spurkahyes, who choose to settle in those lands. That way, Armenians can become some day a majority in Western Armenia. Historical monuments in the rest of Turkey should also be treated properly, and Armenia should have normal relations with Turkey. But the thing between Armenians and Turks will never stop. Armenians can never trust Turkey, because that's what they did in 1908, when the Young Turks came to power. Teach Armenian christianity and language to Hamshentsis (1 million and +) and to Turkified Armenians (?00 000), so that they return to be Armenian. That there are more Turkified Armenians than Hamshen Armenians is a safe bet. While the latter number around 300,000-400,000, there are about 30,000 Hamshen Armenians in their region and 20,000 elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMNT Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 (edited) IF you want compensation, go grab a gun and take back what is yours because Turkey is not obligated to give anything back. Let us assume that Turkey gives us compensation, does this mean Americans need to give Natives their land back? What about the Irish and the Scotts? So, is it safe to assume that America supports Turkey because they share a similar past? Yes, I think we could assume that they do share similar past, therefore, we do look like hypocrits when we live in the United States and complain about the actions of Turkey. Edited April 22, 2005 by TMNT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 IF you want compensation, go grab a gun and take back what is yours because Turkey is not obligated to give anything back. Let us assume that Turkey gives us compensation, does that mean that Americans need to give Natives their land back? What about the Irish and the Scotts? So, is it safe to assume that part of the reason why America supports Turkey is because they share a similar past? Yes, we could assume that, therefore, we sound REALLY HYPOCRITICAL living on the lands of Native Americans, while at the same time complaining about the actions of Turkey. This is world politics, might is right. style_images/master/snapback.png The majority of American-Armenians live in the land of the Indians, because they had no choice. The remnants of Native Americans know that:)Same goes for the majority of Armenians in Europe, Russia and elsewhere. We, basically are dissendants of those without choice. No, I lied! We had modern times choice where to live, driven by the ideal for better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMNT Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 No, I lied! We had modern times choice where to live, driven by the ideal for better. style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 The post-Soviet emigration and the emigration after the fall of the Berlin Wall is totaly different subject. That is what I mean - modern times choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMNT Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 (edited) The post-Soviet emigration and the emigration after the fall of the Berlin Wall is totaly different subject. That is what I mean - modern times choices. style_images/master/snapback.png Ok, what does the post-Soviet emigration have to do with compensation? The topic is about compensation and how Turkey can avoid it. You can paint the truth any way you want to, but the Diaspora lives in nations that have activily taken part in Genocide. ALL the English colonies have systematically exterminated their native population, so, what makes the Armenian Genocide different then the Native-America? Why should we get compensation? Edited April 22, 2005 by TMNT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 The Genocide of Aborigins in the US and in Canada did happen. In Canada, they don't have to pay taxes (which is a good enough compensation if you ask me), live in certain regions where they have autonomy. Note that there wasn't really a Native-American ''civilization'', because most of the Native-Americans here were nomads and lived a simple life. Europeans extended there civilization in America... In Anatolia, the exact opposit happened. Turkish ''culture'' is an imitation of Armenian, Greek, Persian and Arabic culture. Most of the cities in Turkey (Istanbul, Kars, Erzerum, Adana, etc.) were already there when Turks reached Anatolia. But in North America, there was practically nothing (except a few tribes here and there). Our claims in Western Armenia are more legitimate than the claims Jews had in Palestine. Hope I didn't sound racist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Ok, what does the post-Soviet emigration have to do with compensation? The topic is about compensation and how Turkey can avoid it. You can paint the truth any way you want to, but the Diaspora lives in nations that have activily taken part in Genocide. ALL the English colonies have systematically exterminated their native population, so, what makes the Armenian Genocide different then the Native-America? Why should we get compensation? style_images/master/snapback.png I never talked about compensations!!! All I talked about was RESTITUTION and I view the Genocide recognition efforts internationally as a vehicle to make Turkey abide by International Law! Hell, I don’t want to be compensated for the suffering of my ancestors. I’m sure if they were alive they would refuse to accept any compensation from anybody! If they only have had enough guns…J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 ahhh this one is simple. 95% of the Armenian diaspora will disolve within a year or 2 as the genocide is the only way they know they are Armenians. People will not know what to say at "tesaktutuins" when reading the dead persons biography. this is for all Armenians born between 1900 to 1960s. yes 1960s as somehow the genocide finds its way into their biographies as well. you think Armeniang of different background hate each other now? wait till the recognition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 (edited) ahhh this one is simple. 95% of the Armenian diaspora will disolve within a year or 2 as the genocide is the only way they know they are Armenians. you think Armeniang of different background hate each other now? wait till the recognition... style_images/master/snapback.png I agree with this observation Azat. And this is why I think the assimilation of Armenians should not be stopped. We should assimilate in diaspora. This does not mean, however, that we should not create possibilities for staying Armenian. But this process should be kind of "easy" or "light". A matter of choice rather than a destiny. Armenia should be the factor that makes Armenians to want to be Armenian. Otherwise your observation will happen. Edited April 23, 2005 by Armen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Forgive them for we are Christians ? If so, why ? style_images/master/snapback.png I think we should forgive them. Not because we are Christian (lot of people among us are not) but because in long term any claims from our side are not going to advance our nation as a whole. It is a rational choice on our side. 1. If we demand land we cannot populate it 2. If we (Armenia) get money we cannot utilize it properly. At present it will only hurt. Individuals, however, might apply to get some compensation if they feel like it is appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 1. If we demand land we cannot populate it We don't need to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Armen at list we should demand for is, the lands which includes the 1st Armenian republic boundaries, Kars, Ardahan, Ani, etc...... And an official apology from Turkish government and Turkish Nation, but even this is to ripe to consider, knowing the stand of the Turkish curent oficials. One of the key elements here is the support of Turkish intelligentsia who are speaking and condemning AG as a historical fact, we should peruse this vigorously. as far as what keeps diaspora toghether, thats a hipotetical question, no rational can explain it, there are so many elements in which this diaspora continures to exsist, but as before i stated, AG remains the dominats glue which ties as toghether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 (edited) We don't need to! style_images/master/snapback.png What's the rational then, Gams? Are you going to feel satisfied? The only way we will feel satisfied (the is get "even" proportionally) is by killing and raping 30 mln Turks. Cause I don't think that is possible nighter technically nor morally the only way is to create something realy good out of what we have now. And by "something realy good" I mean a society that others will feel jealous of. Edited April 23, 2005 by Armen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Armen at list we should demand for is, the lands which includes the 1st Armenian republic boundaries, Kars, Ardahan, Ani, etc...... And an official apology from Turkish government and Turkish Nation, but even this is to ripe to consider, knowing the stand of the Turkish curent oficials. style_images/master/snapback.png Maybe Edward, but I don't think it is going to make us feel any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 eh Armen, azgovi tseratsanq mer patmutyan ejeri pes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 What's the rational then, Gams? Are you going to feel satisfied? The only way we will feel satisfied (the is get "even" proportionally) is by killing and raping 30 mln Turks. Cause I don't think that is possible nighter technically nor morally the only way is to create something realy good out of what we have now. And by "something realy good" I mean a society that others will feel jealous of. I'm not interested in getting revenge from Turks. Not at all. My revenge is that I'm Armenian and they are Turks, and that hardly could be changed! Armen, I agree with you, but I believe there are different paths to achieve this goal. Do you remember the joke about the newly independant states of the Soviet Union? Why they are called "independant"? Because nothing depends on them. Sadly, this is very true. Demanding land from Turkey is not asking for something extra. It is a just claim that has to be persued with all possible means. And believe me, it might be not tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, but if Wilsonian plan is not at least partly implemented, soon or later we will get there with different means. What Turks are doing right now is trying to postpone the inevitable. The World that we are living in is full of dynamics, sometimes difficult to be recognized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Get Serious. They will have to be forced to admit any responsibility. This is what they are telling Bush. Only a few scholars on their payroll would agree with the following distortions. http://www.info-turc.org/article1521.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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