Erdogan: 'it Is Up To The Armenians To Apologise'

[Takoush]

Like if it will change anything, he'll start denying that Armenians were sent there in the first place. I suggest you to read Halacoglus booklet and what he has to say about the city of Zor, and you'll see what is their arguments about that.

 

Again. Why are you jumping only at me because I am showing my agitation and also because I am verbalizing about this. Before me others did the same thing, yet you didn't jump at them. What is your purpose for doing this? This is a free speech Forum and I am entitled just as much as you or anyone else to show my disgust and aggrevations towards a nationality and governments that killed pretty much a big chunk of my nationality. Just because I am talking about my upsetness gives you no right to say to me that 'like it will do or change anything'. Sometimes people talk out knowing well that it does not change things; but that they feel good talking about such matters with people that sympathizes with them. Or perhaps they want to enthuse others as well.

 

Do you have any problems with that? Well if you do, then that's your problem.

 

 

The only way is for them to feel and know that nobody is buying their arguments, I am confident that they will never believe a genocide happened, for the simple reason that the Turkish society is too prood and the collectivity is in a chronic mass delusion. They should feel that no matter what bone they throw to the Europeans or the world, no one will buy it. They should be convinced that the rest of the world has another version of the history, and that this is not a subject of bargin. And now, we can't even have this, because the rest of the world do leak the bone thrown by Turkey. They'll leave Armenians dealing with this, they've done it during the genocide, why should they move a finger now?

 

You misspelled bargain. And do you think I don't know all about this?

 

 

The only thing left, is to educate ourselves, document the cases and hammer their head with history, debunk the BS and force parlements to pass resolutions and anger Turkey and loving doing that.

 

Of course to educate ourselves, that goes without saying. I believe, we already have others such as Vahakn Dadrian. But we as a nation we should strive to produce more Dadrians to better win and speed up our cause.

 

We should not expect others to do the job for us.

 

How can we expect others to do the job for us when for 90 whole years they didn't. However, there's nothing wrong for fighting and promoting our cause throughout the rest of the world or most of the nations to accept the fact that this was indeed a Genocide.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Eloren]

When has Europe done anything really positive favoring the Armenians? Not so long ago, the British government claimed that the Armenian massacres does not constitute genocide. That most people living in Europe doesn't want Turkey is irrelevant, it is politically correct to include Turkey and this is all that matters for them

 

Europe is not Britain. Britain is licking Turkey's feet i don't know for what reason. But No Europe is not backstabbing Armenia. For example, France does a lot to help armenians, and they always stress about the recognition of the Genocide.

[Takoush]

Europe is not Britain. Britain is licking Turkey's feet i don't know for what reason. But No Europe is not backstabbing Armenia. For example, France does a lot to help armenians, and they always stress about the recognition of the Genocide.

Yes. As a matter of fact that came to mind to mention it but then I forgot, because I said a lot of other things. Yes, of course, France is sympathetic towards us as well as Germany. France's gov't. has already accepted the Armenian Genocide. And other countries as well.

 

Although Britain is part of Europe geographically; but I think what you're saying is that they play bitchy politics as they have always, and whereas most of Europe sympathizes and accepts the AG, they still don't. That's for sure.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[zurderer]

France yeah sure.At Past, She helped you as much as russia and germany.uh let not forget help of talat too.

 

With this friends, you dont need enemies.

 

[Eloren]

France yeah sure.At Past, She helped you as much as russia and germany.uh let not forget help of talat too.

 

With this friends, you dont need enemies.

 

 

 

Every country did bad things in the past. Today they are behind us, most french i know (i lived there) feel sympathy towards the armenians and are very interested in the Genocide. Today in europe, only the french president and ministers speek about the recognition of the genocide.

[Vanetsi]

Every country did bad things in the past. Today they are behind us, most french i know (i lived there) feel sympathy towards the armenians and are very interested in the Genocide. Today in europe, only the french president and ministers speek about the recognition of the genocide.

 

There are more countries in Europe than just France that speak about the recognition of the Genocide. Take Switzerland for example.

[Z'areh]

Zareh:

 

I read most things on this Forum. I also read Domino' input. So yes I know everything; but I am just saying that such as 'ayradz serdi mekhitarank'. I have known all along that such as most of Europe play games with Turkey. Most of Europe doesn't want Turkey in the EU and not because of us, of our agenda or for the Armenian Genocide. I have known it all along that they play 'dirty politics' if you'll have it.

 

However, when I heard about this post, I felt a bit happy about the Blue Book and Ambassador's Westmacott's actions or non actions. What you said I've already read them and I know them as much.

 

Anahid,

 

I know that that you are aware of the issues being discussed, my answer to you was not to your statement of "Turkish government to know that they cannot distort history" per se, but simply expressing my thoughts based on what you said, sort of expanding on a variation on a theme. this was not a criticism.

 

By the way I was also happy to hear the British response to the Turkish government "request" concerning the Blue Book. But of course we all know that the refusal of this request will be attributed by the Turks to having more to do with upholding British pride and prestige than love for the truth.

[zurderer]

Every country did bad things in the past. Today they are behind us, most french i know (i lived there) feel sympathy towards the armenians and are very interested in the Genocide. Today in europe, only the french president and ministers speek about the recognition of the genocide.

 

I think you get me complately wrong. I am not talking about people of french, but goverment of french.

 

 

do you think, they changed so much? now they follow princible of human right and ethics? or just their own interest? I dont think that they will think twice to forget you, If It help their benefit.We are still living in jungle. why dont you just live real world? If they want to harm Turkey, they will use you, If they dont, they just dont interest your destiny. Nothing changed much.

 

Ethics or human rights are not issues of goverments.

[Takoush]

Anahid,

 

I know that that you are aware of the issues being discussed, my answer to you was not to your statement of "Turkish government to know that they cannot distort history" per se, but simply expressing my thoughts based on what you said, sort of expanding on a variation on a theme. this was not a criticism.

 

By the way I was also happy to hear the British response to the Turkish government "request" concerning the Blue Book. But of course we all know that the refusal of this request will be attributed by the Turks to having more to do with upholding British pride and prestige than love for the truth.

Yes Zareh;

 

Agreed!!!

[Takoush]

Every country did bad things in the past. Today they are behind us, most french i know (i lived there) feel sympathy towards the armenians and are very interested in the Genocide. Today in europe, only the french president and ministers speek about the recognition of the genocide.

Eloren.

 

Yes, France of course; but also Germany, Greece and as Vanetsi said Switzerland as well.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

There are more countries in Europe than just France that speak about the recognition of the Genocide. Take Switzerland for example.

Germany and Greece as well, right? I think Germany is geared towards the AG? Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Eloren]

I was talking about the government that want the recognition as a condition for Turkey to enter the EU.

Now i may be wrong but i didn't hear other countries say that.

 

@Zurderer:

We live in a jungle, right i agree

But before spitting on the others, let's look at our own country. Does the government of Armenia REALLY care about Armenians or our future? Come on.. all they think about is filling up their pockets

 

It's the same in every country in the world.

[Takoush]

Էլօրէն:

 

Այս մարդը "Զուրտերէր"ը գիտցած ըլլաս Թուրք է, Հայ չէ. կ՚ ըսեմ որ գիտնաս եւ ստայնմ խօսիս հետը:

 

 

 

[Eloren]

Hmmm .. Ok got it

[DominO123]

Anahid, how and where have I "jumped" on you? I don't get why you are in the defensive or thought I was attacking you.

 

I was just trying to make a point, if anger there was in my posts, they were caused by the behavour of the Turkish government and other governments.

[Takoush]

Anahid, how and where have I "jumped" on you? I don't get why you are in the defensive or thought I was attacking you.

 

I was just trying to make a point, if anger there was in my posts, they were caused by the behavour of the Turkish government and other governments.

I don't know, I sensed some anger and perhaps in my mind I misplaced your anger towards them and took it on me.

 

I am also in your shoes and after your heart, buddy, I am always on your side for our AR. I am on the side of every and any which well meaning well intended Armenian fellow, whether in the Diaspora or in Armenia. For me as well as for you I am sure, and most of us here on the Forum; Armenia is our land 'arevi dag'; our hope and our 'yerazi ashkharh'. Dream land and will be till we die.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Vanetsi]

Germany and Greece as well, right? I think Germany is geared towards the AG? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

You're right about Germany. As of now, that is. Angela Merkel, the leader of the Christian Democratic Union, is favored to be elected as chancellor. She is for the recognition of the Genocide, while her opponent is against it. It's lucky for us that she's going to be elected.

 

Armenie Armenie Uber Alles!

Yev Getseh Deutschland!

[Takoush]

Getseh Angela Merkel!!!!

 

I love her already. And let's hope she stands by her words.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[zurderer]

Zurderer:

We live in a jungle, right i agree

 

Well said.That is excatly what I want to say. No country have friends, but allies.Will you call france or germany as ally?

 

 

 

But before spitting on the others, let's look at our own country. Does the government of Armenia REALLY care about Armenians or our future? Come on.. all they think about is filling up their pockets

 

I am turk and I have better idea for my goverment, not much but still a little better.

[gamavor]

GUL: "NO EU GOVERNMENT EXCEPT FRANCE HAS SIGNED ANY PAPER ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE CLAIMS"

 

Hurriyet, Turkey

Nov 21, 2005

 

Turkish Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Gul

said on Sunday that no EU country's government (except France)

signed any paper or statement that recognized the so-called

Armenian genocide. Responding to a question motion, Gul said that

the parliaments of some EU countries and institutions (like Greek

Cypriot side, Greece, Belgium, France, Italy, Sweden, Slovakia,

the Netherlands, Poland, Germany, European Parliament, Parliamentary

Assembly of Council of Europe) adopted such resolutions.

 

"However, these resolutions can not be regarded as execution of the

governments because they only do have political character and they

are not legally binding," said Gul.

 

Gul also mentioned the efforts launched by Turkey to inform the world

public opinion about the truths regarding Armenian claims, adding

"we explain to our counterparts that such resolutions create hostility

against Turks in those countries, disturb the integration of million

of Turks living in Europe and the improvement of Turkish-Armenian

relations. The issue should be left to historians."

 

 

PS: No Mr. Gul. What would left to historians is your imbecile race! We want our lands back under Armenian flag and we will take them soon or later.

[Takoush]

Zurderer:

We live in a jungle, right i agree

 

Well said.That is excatly what I want to say. No country have friends, but allies.Will you call france or germany as ally?

But before spitting on the others, let's look at our own country. Does the government of Armenia REALLY care about Armenians or our future? Come on.. all they think about is filling up their pockets

 

I am turk and I have better idea for my goverment, not much but still a little better.

You're darn wrong!!!!!

 

I know the heads of Armenia's government and they are very pro loving and pro working hard for Armenia. I know this from good and reputable sources. So don't go bragging about your turkish government who sided and still sides with the criminal Turkey of the 1915-1923 era and times!!!!!!!

 

Anybody that sides with criminals they are hence criminals themselves, because they are on the side and the corner of CRIMINALS. Now how about you? Do you want to continue to side with your criminals loving and criminals siding turkey? It's your choice to save yourself now from such a malice while you can.

Edited November 21, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

GUL: "NO EU GOVERNMENT EXCEPT FRANCE HAS SIGNED ANY PAPER ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE CLAIMS"

 

Hurriyet, Turkey

Nov 21, 2005

 

Turkish Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah Gul

said on Sunday that no EU country's government (except France)

signed any paper or statement that recognized the so-called

Armenian genocide. Responding to a question motion, Gul said that

the parliaments of some EU countries and institutions (like Greek

Cypriot side, Greece, Belgium, France, Italy, Sweden, Slovakia,

the Netherlands, Poland, Germany, European Parliament, Parliamentary

Assembly of Council of Europe) adopted such resolutions.

 

"However, these resolutions can not be regarded as execution of the

governments because they only do have political character and they

are not legally binding," said Gul.

 

Gul also mentioned the efforts launched by Turkey to inform the world

public opinion about the truths regarding Armenian claims, adding

"we explain to our counterparts that such resolutions create hostility

against Turks in those countries, disturb the integration of million

of Turks living in Europe and the improvement of Turkish-Armenian

relations. The issue should be left to historians."

 

PS: No Mr. Gul. What would left to historians is your imbecile race! We want our lands back under Armenian flag and we will take them sooner or later.

Abres Gamavor jan!!!!!!! Himag achkes medar!!!!!!!

 

Yes sir, I'll drink to that!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 21, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Eloren]

I half agree.

 

There may be some good politicians in the government of Armenia, but let's be honest. Most politicians in the world care more about there fortune than the starving people. It's the same in every country i lived and know. Not long ago we had a good example with our beloved Ter-Petrossian.

And Armenia's government is a highly corrupted gov. So I hope things will change.

 

But I also agree that a country that denies it's own past crimes is still considered as a criminal. It's all about politics again, Turks don't want to give land..

 

But we will take them sooner or later. A crime is never left unpunished.

[zurderer]

I know the heads of Armenia's government and they are very pro loving and pro working hard for Armenia.

 

 

I didnt say anything bad about Armenian goverment.

 

So don't go bragging about your turkish government who sided and still sides with the criminal Turkey of the 1915-1923 era and times!!!!!!!

 

And I didnt say any thing good about Turkey goverment( at genocide topic) I just said, this goverment work for turkey.(somehow) At least I prefer Erdogan to others..

 

 

Anybody that sides with criminals they are hence criminals themselves, because they are on the side and the corner of CRIMINALS.

 

Agreed.. I am not following my goverment about this topic, but I will not fight against it too. do this make me criminal also? or If a turk believe that there was not genocide, so is he criminal too?

 

 

Now how about you? Do you want to continue to side with your criminals loving and criminals siding turkey? It's your choice to save yourself now from such a malice while you can.

 

Firstly All goverments are guilty.If not, they would not become good goverment.

 

Secondly I side with noone.

 

Thirdly we are not living 1915. at that times, I would try to stop Young Turks. For now, I dont care. Neither you are that armenians who is killed nor we are that turks.

 

 

PS: No Mr. Gul. What would left to historians is your imbecile race! We want our lands back under Armenian flag and we will take them sooner or later.

 

But I know, I will not side with this. After all you are talking about my race.

 

 

But we will take them sooner or later. A crime is never left unpunished.

 

And I will not agree with this too. I dont think crime goes from father to son.

 

But I also agree that a country that denies it's own past crimes is still considered as a criminal. It's all about politics again, Turks don't want to give land..

 

 

Yes, It is all about politics. how can you wait us, to help your political campaign against Turkey?

[Takoush]

I didnt say anything bad about Armenian goverment.

 

I am glad you didn't. Because I believe in them!!!!!

 

And I didnt say any thing good about Turkey goverment( at genocide topic)

 

I am very glad to hear that.

 

 

Anybody that sides with criminals, hence they are criminals themselves.....

 

Agreed.. I am not following my goverment about this topic, but I will not fight against it too. do this make me criminal also? or If a turk believe that there was not genocide, so is he criminal too?

 

Although I am glad that you're not following your government about the Genocide topic; however, as a progressive Turk you must seek the truth yourself and at least try to be on the side of the truth. You know what they say? The truth will make you a free man. It means, it will make you without feeling guilt about a criminal past as the guilt puts people in bondage, they don't become happy, progressive and spiritually free and happy individuals.

 

If a turk believes that there was no Genocide because the Turkish government puts it in their mind and brain washes them; if they are the master of their destiny and their individuality; again they should seek the truth and be on the side of the truth. I have heard on this Forum that in UCLA in Los Angeles I believe; at least three Turkish scholars wanted Turkey to accept the fact that there was indeed a Genocide committed against Armenians from 1915 through 1923. They were not just deported; but they were systematically killed, massacred, annihilated in a most horrifying ways. Seek the truth man and make yourself to be a free man. That's what I say to all the Turks that don't want to hear or be on the side of the truth!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Now how about you? Do you want to continue to side with your criminals loving and criminals siding turkey? It's your choice to save yourself now from such a malice while you can.

 

Firstly All goverments are guilty.If not, they would not become good goverment.

 

Secondly I side with noone.

 

Not all governments are guilty like the Turkish government. And there is a measure of guilt and another measure of guilt. Some governments like the Turkish government; they have committed much horrifying crimes against humanity; be it in Europe, be it with Armenians or be it even with Egyptians and or Middle Easterns. I know, as my elders told me such horrifying stories that the Egyptians used to tell them about being tortured by Turks.

 

 

Thirdly we are not living 1915. at that times, I would try to stop Young Turks. For now, I dont care. Neither you are that armenians who is killed nor we are that turks.

 

Yes whereas it's true that we're not living in 1915 and I am glad that if you were living at those times you would've stopped the crimes if you could; however as a progressive and a young Turk as you are; you must care for the sake of your Turkey. I will say it again; because the truth will set them free. And your countrymen will be much better people and a government if they accepted their government's earlier crimes and then we can both go on to be better neighbors; and hence your government and your people will look much better to the world as well.

 

And yes, although we are the grand children of those who were annihilated in 1915 through 1923; but since every Armenian or almost all Armenians in the Diaspora carry the outcome of those crimes committed by the then Turkish government, we are deemed to feel psychologically and spiritually robbed and not well about all this; because we were massacred and raped if you will as a nation. We cannot feel anything but contempt against any government who sides and tries to conceal such crimes. It's unforgivable.

 

PS: No Mr. Gul. What would left to historians is your imbecile race! We want our lands back under Armenian flag and we will take them sooner or later.

 

But I know, I will not side with this. After all you are talking about my race.

 

But we will take them sooner or later. A crime is never left unpunished.

 

And I will not agree with this too. I dont think crime goes from father to son.

 

Perhaps we are saying imbecile race; because they are acting in an imbecile manner by denying and trying to conceal such horryifying crimes of the beginning of the 20th century towards our civilian people -the Armenians-.

 

Yes a crime does go from father to son when that crime has taken away more than 1.5 million civilian souls.

That is a BIG CRIME, and if you don't accept that then you are siding on the side of the criminals. Which will make you a criminal yourself, that is if you sided with them; but with all due respect you said that you didn't.

 

But I also agree that a country that denies it's own past crimes is still considered as a criminal. It's all about politics again, Turks don't want to give land..

 

Yes, It is all about politics. how can you wait us, to help your political campaign against Turkey?

 

Political campaign? Don't make me laugh, what political campaign you're talking about?

 

First, let Turkey take away the blockade against Armenia, then let Turkey accept their government's FIRST CRIME OF THE 20TH CENTURY, then we can talk.........

 

 

 

Edit - fixed the quotes

Edited November 25, 2005 by vava