Kurdified - Turkified Armenians

[Med]

At least I'm not dumbed-down.

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You must be giving a self-definition of yourself.

 

 

Can't grasp??? Don't make me laugh! Size that ego down, prick! Nobody in this forum is as interested in discussing themselves or others as you are, so know where you stand!

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Go wipe your snot off your ratty snout.

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Your Brain

 

Is that all you have got? Resorting to insults and cheapshots, because you're not capable enough to even articulate one sentence. There is a saying in your language: "Kızım sana söyledim gelinim sen anla". It seems to fit you.

[Stormig]

Your Brain

 

Is that all you have got?

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You're a newcomer, so know your bounds as to what I say to whom and who says what to me. I don't crash into a forum you post in and start pontificating, do I? Moreover, this response you've quoted is long overdue if you consider what the Rat deserves for his stinky interjections, not the least of which was that my saying we have different talents and such because of the differences in our brains contradicted my saying that all human beings - male, female, of whichever race, etc. - are born equal, when lovely Rat spurts all sorts of crap whenever he is around any thread I've started, including the Meet the U.S. thread where his posts had to be edited out for childish gibberish. So kindly stay put and put away that keyboard, novice.

Edited January 19, 2005 by Stormig

[Med]

You are the one with interjections. You can keep your advice to yourself smilie face.

[Stormig]

You are the one with interjections. You can keep your advice to yourself smilie face.

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Ain't that royal? Not only a novice, but a "No you are" as well.

[Med]

Why the incredulity? You are not the owner of this forum ain't ya?

[Med]

I think religion has more to do with it. The Hamshen Armenians joined the Turkish fold a long time ago. Some of them still might speak Armenian, but they are more or less assimilated and rather hostile if you make any reference to Armenians. My father told me an interesting story about his time when he did his military service in Ordu not far from where the Hamshen Armenians live. There was an Armenian doing his military duty there as well and their squadron came upon a group of villagers who invited them for lunch. When his friend heared the villagers say some words in Armenian, he was amazed and spoke to them in Armenian. The villagers were dumbstruck and asked him which village he came from. When he told him that he was Armenian they said that they are speaking their own language! I don't if they were aware, but maybe thirty years or so there were still some Armenian Shangri-la's lost in some valleys and insurmonutable mountains. Then they are Kurdicized Armenians who still retained their religion. They mostly lived in the Mush area but most of them left for Istanbul and Europe. The best known were the Armenian Varto clan who lived in Varto. They spoke Kurdish and tenaciously clinged to their religion as a reminder of their Armenian heritage. They survived the genocide because they were a respected and most importantly armed clan who would not have themselves pushed around. After the Varto earthquake in 1966 and increasing pressures from other Kurdish clans they moved to Europe. Most of them settled down in Marseilles and Brussels. A few live in Switzerland. They must number around 2000, if I'm not mistaken. I think religion is the main factor for Armenian self-preservation in this regard. Those who stayed in the Armenian Apostolic Church preserved the Armenian ethos and spririt. You can't say the same thing for the Muslim Armenians since they weren't touched, but only a insignificant number of Christian Armenians survived.

[Anileve]

I am confused...are we discussing the article and Armenians revealing their identities or we are attacking Stormy and her "alter ego"? Please let me know, I don't want to be left out of the loop. With all due respect kind Arpa, I do believe that this phenomenon has been common knowledge in the Armenian community across the globe. At least it was thoroughly discussed in the myriads of genocide publications. They were forced...they had no choice...they had to save their families....Now they are making a film about it, and the wheel keeps spinning. How about some positive stories about the life of Armenians in Turkey who really like their place of residence. I've actually met some on several occasions, but they are reluctant to reveal this information to other patriotic Armenians who glare at them with disgust and disapproval.

[Nakharar]

I'm supposed to be Stormig's alter ego?

 

Interesting topic by the way. Turkish or Kurdish "Armenians", it really doesn't matter nowadays. Even if they exist, there's not much out there for them.

[Arpa]

Armat,

.........

(Personally, I'm not religious, but I consider myself an "ethnic Christian," because I grew up among Christians!)

..........

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No wonder we are growing smaller just as we speak.

When is the last time we added even ONE person to our ranks?

We have constantly lost and are still losing several hundreds, thousands every minute of the day. Be it through passive or active assimilation, alienation and rejection.

Is there a way to make being an Armenian so attractive that people will knock our gates down and enter begging to be accepted?

 

So you say you are Christian.

Do you read that Christian users' manual aka the New Testament?

Are you familiar with the below parable known as the Parable of the Prodigal Son, Anarak Ordou Arak@?

Maybe we should compile a profie of an Armenian and issue identity cards based on the features.

Let's begin;

An Armenian is if;

1.

2.

3.

4.

.......

 

Is not if;

1.

2.

3.

4.

..........

So they may be the Prodigal Son.

Can you find in yourself that Christian charity and forgiveness?

 

Scroll down to Ghukas Glukh 15.

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/files...bible/Luke.html

 

10Ասում եմ ձեզ, Աստծու հրեշտակների առաջ այսպէս ուրախութիւն կը լինի մէկ մեղաւորի համար, որն ապաշխարում է»։ 11Եւ ասաց. «Մի մարդ երկու որդի ունէր. 12նրանցից կրտսերը հօրն ասաց. «Հա՛յր, տո՛ւր քո ունեցուածքից ինձ ընկնող բաժինը»։ Եւ նա ունեցուածքը բաժանեց նրանց։ 13Քիչ օրեր յետոյ, կրտսեր որդին, փողի վերածելով ամէն ինչ, գնաց հեռու աշխարհ եւ այնտեղ վատնեց իր ունեցուածքը, որովհետեւ անառակ կեանքով էր ապրում։ 14Եւ երբ ամէն ինչ սպառեց, այդ երկրում սաստիկ սով եղաւ, եւ նա սկսեց չքաւոր դառնալ։ 15Գնաց դիմեց այդ երկրի քաղաքացիներից մէկին, եւ սա ուղարկեց նրան իր ագարակը՝ խոզեր արածեցնելու։ 16Եւ նա ցանկանում էր իր որովայնը լցնել եղջերենու պտղով, որ խոզերն էին ուտում, բայց ոչ ոք այդ նրան չէր տալիս։ 17Ապա խելքի եկաւ եւ ասաց. «Քանի՜ վարձու աշխատաւորներ կան իմ հօր տանը, որ առատ հաց ունեն, եւ ես այստեղ սովամահ կորչում եմ։ 18Վեր կենամ գնամ իմ հօր մօտ եւ նրան ասեմ. հա՛յր, մեղանչեցի երկնքի դէմ ու քո առաջ 19եւ այլեւս արժանի չեմ քո որդին կոչուելու, ինձ վերցրո՛ւ

 

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx...V2&byte=4704170

[Nakharar]

Excellent post Arpa! Rather concentrating on imaginary Armenians in Turkey why don't we concentrate on real, tangible Armenians in the Diaspora who consider being an Armenian as a burden. Some people are really changing the subject, because they do not want to look the unpleasant truth in the face.

[Arpa]

I think religion has more to do with it. The Hamshen Armenians joined the Turkish fold a long time ago. Some of them still might speak Armenian, but they are more or less assimilated and rather hostile if you make any reference to Armenians. My father told me an interesting story about his time when he did his military Varto

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Can we make them recite; "Ne mutlu Ermeni im deyene"?

Can we convince them that being Armenian is more fortunate than...? How?

We would be very hard pressed.

[DominO123]

Where is Kurdish remorse?

 

Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.

[Nakharar]

Everyone is doing that Domino. Do you think all these countries are recognizing the genocide because they feel so sorry for the Armenians. They could care less about Armenians. It's a bargaining chip against Turkey.

[Arpa]

Where is Kurdish remorse?

 

Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.

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Well said Fado!

Is that a Kurdish Name? :)

In fact, as we speak the Armenians and the Kurds in a virtual "territorial" war.

Search and find some of the maps of Kurdistan that the Kurds have designed and compare that to some of the maps we wish to design. Note that many of their's include even Yerevan.

They have been aired here at various occasions.

Are they willing to share?

 

Here is one.

Can we claim at least Ani and Ararat?

http://www.kurdish-partnership.com/mapkurdistan.html

Edited January 19, 2005 by Arpa

[DominO123]

Everyone is doing that Domino. Do you think all these countries are recognizing the genocide because they feel so sorry for the Armenians. They could care less about Armenians. It's a bargaining chip against Turkey.

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You're ignorant to say the least.

 

I followed all the process that ended up by the recognition of the Armenian genocide by the Canadian House of Commons... and it was a true recognition... the deputees of the liberal party have voted against their own ministers that voted no. This happen very rarely in Canada because of the party line. The Yes was not a political move, the no was. There are many such countries that passed a resolution or a law in all honnesty.

 

I have followed and participated in a Kurdish forum, everything was going well when discussing about Turkey and the genocide, but when the issue of lands, and Kurdish participation in the genocide was brought, they became like the most fanatic Turks I have accountered.

 

Take a look at the Kurdistan map, it even includes part of present day Armenia.

[Arpa]

Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion"[/b] as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up Sorry for the rant.

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Why must we always die for our convictions?

Can we learn to live?

As to Raffi's Samvel. That is a parody, a tongue in cheek sarcasm.

Is that not the Same Raffi who advocated to "Build at least one fortress for every 10 churches"?

[Nakharar]

Exceptions do not make the rule. The only other country that comes to mind is Wales, maybe because of they are the heirs to William Gladstone and Lloyd George and their naive Christian gullibility.

[Armat]

Kakachik,Siamanto

It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

[Stormig]

Cheers, Domino and Ani - so eloquent of you.

[DominO123]

Exceptions do not make the rule. The only other country that comes to mind is Wales, maybe because of they are the heirs to William Gladstone and Lloyd George and their naive Christian gullibility.

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I disagree, countries have more to lose by recognising it, politically speaking, non-recognition has more advantages.

[Med]

Kakachik,Siamanto

It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

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I doubt that would be the case. Any assertion of Armenian identity will most probably be surpressed especially if they became an Armenian enclave/satellite in a Turkish sea. They only have a chance if they join their brethren in Istanbul. There they will be safe from repercussions and under the protection of the foreign establishment there.

[Arpa]

Kakachik,Siamanto

It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

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Well said Armat!

You took my words. But I frogive you. :)

Can we cut this religious crap and be pragmatic and politically expedient?

The latest weapon in the Turkish arsenal is that "we sided with the Russians", that we were a virtual "fifth column". Can we create a "fifth column" (be they islamized Hamshens or kurdified Armeninas)right in their very heart?

Oh no!!

Bernis karmir piper!

After all they are "unclean/ soiled" and sacriligious!

[Nakharar]

I disagree, countries have more to lose by recognising it, politically speaking, non-recognition has more advantages.

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I don't see how, but I hope you are right. You are too optimistic in my opinion.

[DominO123]

I don't see how, but I hope you are right. You are too optimistic in my opinion.

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I can provide many evidences to support my position, can you do the same with yours.

 

If your position was to be true, this would be even truer for the Europeans, but still the recognition of the genocide was not a EU condition for Turkeys accessions. And every time the genocide recognition is on the table in a country, it is always ministers, and not depuitees that are majoritarly against its recognitions, and nearly everytime, the leading head of the no side is the minister of foreign affairs, and the prime minister is too coward to say anything.

 

In Canada, the prime minister and minister of justice were even not present during the vote.

 

In France, something very similar happened.

[Nakharar]

The MPs can afford to be idealistic, because they do not have to directly deal with Turkey unlike cabinet ministers who are in a executive position. Of course I know that genocide recognition isn't and never will be part of Turkey's accession talks. I deal with the Copenhague criteria and the common aquis every day in my office. The Europeans know about Turkey's insecurity and what better way is there than to play on these fears. But it will become an issue if European countries decide to hold referenda on Turkey's entry into the EU and this will be a major stickingpoint.