What's a lipashay?

[Kazza]

Well? what IS one?

[MosJan]

li*****y?

Lipas-Hay ?

Lip-Ashay ?

Li-*****y ?

sorry chem kider jans

[raffiaharonian]

May be you mean - lipanahay, which stands fot the Armenians of Lipanan=Lebanon. !

[Kazza]

AHA!

 

That's the one!

 

I know that Barkashays are from Iran, ..are there any other ones I should know of?

[Nané]

Oh there are plenty I am sure
Let's see ... I can think of one -
Tajkahays are from Turkey

[edward demian]

Sulamita

Fransahays come from Kahiristan.

Ethiopian Armenians come from Habishistan

Polish Armenians come from Lehastan.

Africans are Hapshigs.

Jews are Herrias

Jordanians are Hortanantsys.

Egiptians are from Misser.

there are a slew of tribal names of various nomadic peoples that passed through Armenia that the Armenians named something or other, but those names don't mean anything to me because ther is no reference. Too bad. When the Colophons refer to "the nation of the Archers" I can suspect that they mean the Mongols, but I don't know for sure.

 

By now are you sorry that you asked?

[edward demian]

Sulamita

How could I forget.

Greece=Hunastan

India=Hentkastan

All that is correct Western Armenian denominations for some of the people they met in antiquity.

[MJ]

Why Western, Edward? How are they called in Eastern Armenian, you think?

[edward demian]

I'm sure that they are called the same in Eastern Armenian.

However, culturraly, Eastern Armenia up to the Genocide, had been a backwater place. Except for Echmiadzin which was a religious center. Kesaria, Edessa, Constantinopolis were the main cultural centers. Linguistically, Eastern Armenian is still a "lerayin parpar". And that is a "P" as in Paul.

[MJ]

Dear Edward,

Your statements about Eastern Armenia is resulted from your lack of knowledge, I think. It is OK not to know, but it is not OK to make unqualified statements.

It is true that the Eastern Armenia has been economically backward region inside the Russian Empire. But it has nothing to do with its cultural dimension. In the last several centuries there have been three Armenian cultural centers, prior to the emergence of Soviet Armenia – Istanbul, Island of St. Lazarus, and Tiflis, the last one being the cultural center of Eastern Armenia.

I am not trying to see the Eastern and Western Armenian cultures in a competing status, therefore, I would not denigrate the admirable Western Armenian cultural values, however, I would strongly advise you to do the same, therefore, I would advise that you first study the issue, please.

I also think that not knowing Proper Eastern Armenian (don’t know how much Western Armenian you know), don’t make such strong ( and nonsense, btw) statements, please. I also couldn’t understand the message hidden under your comment on the pronunciation of “P,” though have a pretty good guess. However, I would urge a little bit more mature approach to these issues.

[gamavor]

All this issue about lipanahay, bolsahay, barskahay, ekiptosahay is another Armenian idiotic "paradigm.” Isn't so difficult to say "I'm Armenian from Lebanon" or "I'm Armenian from Iran" but NO, he/she is Bolsahay, Lipanahay etc... As a result of that (and not only that) Lipanahays hate Bolsahays (sometimes quite justly) and vise-verse, Barskahays are kind of extraterrestrial, Ekiptosahays believe that they have build the Pyramids, etc, etc,.

What they all have in common is that whenever you see them in an "Armenian" party when "Armenian music" is played almost all of them are siting quietly in their sits, and when Arabic or else is played they are all on the dance floor.

[MJ]

So,... which one of them is the Real Armenian?

[gamavor]

Ara Baliozian!

[dragon]

YASSUUUUUUUUUUU

ONE MORE!!!!!!!

[edward demian]

Dear MJ

Somehow I knew that I would hurt someone's feelings by making a comment about my opinion of Eastern Armenian.

I am speaking of language development. I am a product of Mechitarian Catholic Seminary in Lebanon. For nine months a I attended that school and learned Armenian.

My father graduated from Saint Lazarus "Vank" in Venice Italy. The Mechitarians have been the best Armenian linguists in the world. They are constantly purifying the language of foreign, especially Turkish and Iranian words which have crept in and replaced perfectly good and proper Armenian ones. To this day many Armenians call donkeys , Esheg, when the armenian word is "anasoon"; or animal hayvan instead of anasun. Western Armenians make mistakes too. the Lebanese Armenians adoption of "ghor" is atrocious. there is no such word in armenian yet " ghe khoseegor" is more common than "ghe Khosee".

When I listen to "common " Eastern Armenian, I find it riddles with Russian words.

Tren (train)instead of shokegarkh, Telefon (telephone) instead of heratzain, and the interchanging of G's and K's, B's and P's etc, all were imposed on us to separate us from each other.

Traditionally, Eastern Armenian was taught in Iran and Soviet Armenia only, and all other schools taught Western Armenian. There was a reason for it. Western Armenian is much closer to Crapar (clasical Armenian) , and a lot of Idealistic Armenians had hoped to scrapp both eastern and western armenian and re introduce Crapar. It is too late for that. Populism today will not allow it. So as Western Armenians stuggle to retain their dialect as pure and original as possible, as the Eastern Armenians are taking the language in outer space somewhere further and further from us and it's roots. I love all Armenians, but when it comes to language we need to standardize and purify. Language needs to unite us, not separate us.

[MJ]

Dear Edward,

 

You didn’t heart my feelings. I would’ve replied the same way if you had made such remarks about Western Armenian. You were just wrong.

 

I am intrigued to learn about your relationship to the Mkhitarians. But I have to note that Armenian language is such a perfect, yet multilayer structure that its adequate assessment requires much more prolonged studies, I think.

 

There is a word in Eastern and Western Armenian for donkey – it is “avanag,” and that is what’s used in the literary language. You would hardly hear the word “Esheg” in Eastern Armenia, except when it is being pronounced with the purpose of insulting somebody.

 

“Anasoon” is not the equivalent of “esheg,” but has more general meaning by referring to sort of “animal,” sort of "cattle."

 

It is true that in Eastern Armenian street language there are many Russian expressions. However, it is neither a family language, nor a language that people would use in writing. Additionally, no Eastern Armenian respecting our language would use Russian or any other foreign words in his/her speech. Don’t judge by what you hear on the streets of Hollywood. Eastern Armenian is a perfect Armenian structure.

 

The word “tren” is not used by Eastern Armenians, but rather by Western. There is a beautiful word for it in Eastern Armenian – “gnatsk.” Same about “Telephone.” Its Eastern Armenian substitute is “herakhos.”

 

You are right that “t,” “d,” “k,” “g,” are frequently interchanged in Eastern and Western Armenian. Big deal … And who is to tell which one is right? Which Armenians are the real ones? Is there such a thing?

 

It is true that the two dialects somewhat separate us. But there are things which separate us more - first of all our bond with our homeland. But within each dialect there are so many things that separate the Western Armenians from Western Armenians or the Eastern from the Eastern that the dialect is an innocent thing. Look at Etchmiadzin and Anthilias, for example.

 

It is right that the Western Armenian is closer to Grabar than the Eastern. So what? Even the Western Armenian of the 15th century is different from the Western Armenian of the 20th century. The language always evolves. One can argue that Eastern Armenian is a structurally more developed stage of the Armenian language than the Western. Each language is gone through much evolution in history. Modern Greeks don’t understand ancient Greek, nor the Modern Jews understand ancient Hebrew. It is a hell for a modern English speaker to understand even Shakespearian English.

What’s the big deal between the Eastern and Western Armenian versions? Anybody who understands well one of them, with a little effort would also understand the other, though some would pretend that they don't - an attitude problem.

 

The preservation of whichever version of Armenian is an issue of realism. There is huge literary heritage in Eastern Armenian – of several magnitudes higher than in Western Armenian. All Armenian Scientific, professional and educational literature is written in Eastern Armenian. It is impossible for Armenia and not expedient to switch to Western Armenian. On the other hand, the number of the users of Western Armenian is constantly shrinking, and it is natural that it has no future as a version other than a family language for some segments of our nation. Even that for not more than another century. This is not an issue of populism, but of realism.

 

I don’t think that Eastern Armenian is in any way being taken to the outer space. Quite the opposite. It is where it is supposed to be. As to not taking it further and further from you, why not to put some effort to accept it. After all, the only realistic chance of the standardization of the Armenian language is in accepting the Eastern Armenian as the standard version. Just accept it, and unite with the majority of the Armenian speaking nation.

 

Isn’t this a reasonable expectation?

 

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[edward demian]

For me giving up on Western Armenian is another nail in the coffin of the Western Armenian Aspirations.

I still dream of a renaisance in turkey where we succeed in reclaiming a lot of turkified Armenians. We may not be allowed to return, but there is not much the turks can do to Turkish Armenians who rediscover their roots. Western Armenian will serve well. I thought the Jews revived Hebrew which was like Crapar.The Irish revived classical Gaelic not a modern mountain jargon. I don't know what is being taught in California Armenian schools.

[MJ]

1. What does it mean? And by claiming Western Armenian aspirations and not Armenian aspirations, aren't you the one who divides us?

2. I don't think so.

3. Some Californian Armenian schools teach Western Armenian others Eastern.

[edward demian]

My relationship to the Armenian Catholic Church is simply that my family came from Culicia. I have heard it said that during the Crucades and after, the Cilician Armenians found it religiously compelling to ransom French, Scottish German and other European prisoners from the victorious Muslims. All the Europeans were Catholic at that time. A lot of those prisoners had their families reemburse their hosts, but those whom were not, had to stay on to work their ramsoms off. Being young men, good looking and strong, some stayed on, married Armenian and assimilated into the Armenian population. The only thing that was stronger than nationality at the time, was religion. They remained Catholic long after their descendants forgot their roots. Cosequently, the Cilician Armenians have a lot of foreign physical traits and a large catholic population. In the late 1700's, Rome also prosethylized heavily in the area. Also, there has allways been a core of Catholic Armenians whom did not opt for Orthodoxy.

When my dad arrived in Romania, he was 3 years old and later, his parents relented to send him to Mechitarian vank in Venice, where he learned fluent Armenian. Not all of the "vartabetsui" were frocked. The majority went back to their communities Armenianized and literate to become community leaders.

My father married an Austrian/Moldovian woman who was not very open minded about Armenian issues. So the only way for me to learn Armenian was to go to a Seminary, live and study there, where I became Armenian and literate. I so much want to duplicate the experience with my two sons, Armen and Mihran. However every time I telephoned and tried to discuss that with the Mechitariantsy's, I get the polite bum's rush.

There are no Catholic Armenian Churches in Palm Springs. Some people say that we Catholics are Catholic first and Armenian last. I don't think so. I attend and served on the local Armenian Lusavorchagan church council for for years alomg with Pohokagans.

There are no doctrinal differences, the liturgy conforms to the Armenian rite and the sacrements are mutually recognized.

[MJ]

Very commendable of you, Edward. My maternal side also descends from Cilicia. However, I don’t connect with it in anyway. It is too illusionary and unreal for me.

 

Additionally, my maternal grandma was Catholic, too. She, along with her sister, has been saved by Catholic missionaries during the Genocide. Later her sister became Catholic nun (she hated me, btw ). The son of my maternal grandfather’s brother is a prominent Jesuit priest, well known in one of the largest Armenian Diasporan communities. So, as you see, we all share some features. Only we haven’t clarified our aspirations.

 

P.S. My maternal grandfather's Cilician family has been masons. I am told that they have left their trademark in and around Marash constructions. So, we may even be relatives with you.

 

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[gamavor]

...and Karekin Njdeh said "We are Humans first, and only after that Armenians!", and even I agree to that.

[MJ]

Exactly. And, yet, Nzhdeh has been the founder of Armenian "Tseghakron" movement.

[gamavor]

MJ,

 

My paternal grandmother was Roman Catholic, and (very devoted one, she didn't hate me though) and she had the same fate as your relatives and they were Marashtzi/Adanatzi.

[MJ]

See... Tell me know that this Western-Eastern Armenian BS makes sense...

[edward demian]

MJ

I have not given up on Eastern Armenia hlping the Western Armenians regain their rights. However, so far their efforts have been dissaponting.

I think that we have to chisel away at turkey one issue at the time. We may have to accept temporarily that we were part of the Ottoman empire, and al least regain the rights as Ottoman Armenians first, and keep on struggling for "equal rights". I think that the day will come when the turks will call our bluff and say: Fine, sorry, come back and settle or shut up. I have to be prepared for that day. Wstern Armenian is essential, and speaking turkish is too.

I don't dismiss parallel efforts by other entities, such as Hayastan, UN, EU, CIS, ANSALA etc, etc. However, I am realistic that Armenia cannot take on all the issues at this time. First it has to survive. In fact they pretty much let it be known that the diaspora has to sink or swimm by itself. I used to be very pessimistic before the fall of Communism. Now I know that anything is possible.