Is It Hagop/hakob/akob/yacob?

[HyEpRoFiLe]

Is it Hagop/Hakob/Akob/Yacob???

 

Western Armenians say "Hagop" & write "Yagop"

Eastern Armenians say "Hakop" & write "Hakob"

Some verniculars of Eastern Armenian say "Akob" & write "Akob"

 

Now the well-know Eastern-prononciation-Western-orthography solution doesn't seam to apply here, since the Yee problem appears:

 

Based on the purest sources of the name (Aramaic, a native language, for example), Hagop is in fact derived from Yacub, know in English and other Anglo-Germanic languages today ast Jacob. The name has different variations in different languages, Yacov in Russian and other Slavic languages, Giacommo in Italian, etc...

 

Now, the issue here is simple. In most other languages, the Y/I prononciation is kept (Yacov in Slavic languages), except obviously in the Anglo-Germanic languages and in Italian, where the Y/I is replaced with the G/J. I can only assume, and this is where I need more info since I have none to back up my assumption, that in Armenian, the Y/I has been replaced by H.

 

The subject of Ho vs. Hee was somewhat covered at the threadHee Or Yee?, Harut or Yarut?

 

Now this issue isn't whether it's Yagop or Hagop. The issue lies in the correct transliteration of HAGOP. Is it Hagop??? or Hakob???

 

If I were to get my way, I would write it Hagop (Eastern Armenian first letter, the rest of the word in Western Armenian), and prononce it Hakop (Eastern Armenian).

[vava]

I'm assuming that you've already had a gander at some of the other threads discussing what could be termed as 'redundant letters' in the Armenian alphabet. I like your premise, and in terms of pronounciation, I arrive at the same conclusion you have in the specific instance of Hakop. However, I don't know the written language nearly well enough to offer any further explanations. Welcome to Hye Forum by the way

[Harut]

Is it Hagop/Hakob/Akob/Yacob???

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it's Հակոբ or Յակոբ. now, how you would pronounce it is up to you.

 

since the Հ<->Յ doesn't bother you, then i don't see any other issue here.

[HyEpRoFiLe]

it's Հակոբ or Յակոբ. now, how you would pronounce it is up to you.

 

since the Հ<->Յ doesn't bother you, then i don't see any other issue here.

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Well see, that's the thing, it does bother me... My parents are from Armenia, and therefore speak Eastern Armenian. However, I am born and raised here in Canada, and graduated a Western Armenian school... Since most my friends speak Western Armenian, and my parents speak Eastern, I am perhaps one of the few who has learned both so well that I can easily switch seemlessly between both, like the flip of a switch...

 

I use to spend half of my Armenian classes arguing with my numerous worthless teachers whether to write my name with a Հ or a Յ. They almost all unequivocally demanded I write it with a Յ, without even explaining why. I remember after having dealt with a half a dozen ignorant western-is-right-eastern-is-wrong teachers, I finally came to my own conclusion, as do most people who seriously venture into the details of the linguistics: Western spelling was better, as was Eastern prononciation. Now, I was at a crossroads: If I accepted the Western spelling as being correct, then I would have to write it with a Յ, and therefore be foreced to read it Yagop, since Easterns always pronounce the Յ as a YEE/HEE...

 

Do you see the problem??? It lies in the root of the name... This Mashdots say Hee/Yee when he wrote Յ, did he say Yeh/Yee when he wrote Ե, did he say Voh/Oh when he wrote Ո??? I'm convinced there is some form of erroneous translitteration done for the case of Hagop in Western Armenian. Since when do Westerns write Hagop with a Յ???

Edited November 12, 2004 by HyEpRoFiLe

[Arpa]

Is it Hagop/Hakob/Akob/Yacob???

 

Western Armenians say "Hagop" & write "Yagop"

Eastern Armenians say "Hakop" & write "Hakob"

Some verniculars of Eastern Armenian say "Akob" & write "Akob"

 

Now the well-know Eastern-prononciation-Western-orthography solution doesn't seam to apply here, since the Yee problem appears:

 

Based on the purest sources of the name (Aramaic, a native language, for example), Hagop is in fact derived from Yacub, know in English and other Anglo-Germanic languages today ast Jacob. The name has different variations in different languages, Yacov in Russian and other Slavic languages, Giacommo in Italian, etc...

 

Now, the issue here is simple. In most other languages, the Y/I prononciation is kept (Yacov in Slavic languages), except obviously in the Anglo-Germanic languages and in Italian, where the Y/I is replaced with the G/J. I can only assume, and this is where I need more info since I have none to back up my assumption, that in Armenian, the Y/I has been replaced by H.

 

The subject of Ho vs. Hee was somewhat covered at the threadHee Or Yee?, Harut or Yarut?

 

Now this issue isn't whether it's Yagop or Hagop. The issue lies in the correct transliteration of HAGOP. Is it Hagop??? or Hakob???

 

If I were to get my way, I would write it Hagop (Eastern Armenian first letter, the rest of the word in Western Armenian), and prononce it Hakop (Eastern Armenian).

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How do we trasliterate the guttural Arabic sounds into Armenian?

 

Dear HyeEp, welcome!

Tsav@d tanenq! We feel your hurt.

Whoever said we did not invent "temograsi"!! :)

No, We did not invent democracy, we invented anarki.

Please search and find items about "language police".

Yes. We did invent democracy, one person one vote and thats is why we have 8 million opinions about orthography and transliteration. Every one of us has an opinion about how we have to spell and transliterate. Fortunately Mesrop was born at a time when a majority of us did not know how to read and write, and he had total control of how to devise our Ay Ben Gim. Mind you, at that time no one had heard of English either.

There are as many concepts of transliteration as ther are Armenians and beyond. What with the LOC method, Istanbul method and Soviet method!

When Mashtots devised our Ayb Ben Gim , there were much fewer languages to cope with, beside the Greek, Assyrian and Aramaic.

You will notice above that I transliterated "anrchy" as "anarki" and "democracy" as "temograsi". That is why he invented the letter Qe, the one before O FE, to match the Greek Xsi so we can properly write "an-archy" as "an-arQa".

Mesrop did not spare any effort to link our language to the Greek (Western) and juxtaposed our letters to conform. Our language is IndoEuropean, so is Greek that is why we spell "anarchy" as "anarQayakan" and we call that part of the house that we enter "dur". Not "tur" as those from Istambul would have us. "dur" is the same as the English "door".

It seems you have read some of my posts where these issues are discussed.

Mashtots even took the trouble to create a letter (among many) to reflect the sound of the Greek "Theta", the 9th letter of the Ayb Ben Gim, but we totally ignore it and insist to spell "thomas" as "tovmas", just as we transliterate "david" to "tavit"

 

The Armenian language is enormously richer than we can ever imagine. Only if we knew how to use it. As opposed to ab-use it.

Do we need a "language police", do we need to speak (and write) out of one mouth?

 

Do we need to end this cacophony of "one man, one orthography/transliteration"?

 

You bet!!!

 

Where is the "language police"??

Edited November 13, 2004 by Arpa

[Proud EXPAT]

HAKOB seems the most correct to me. The original Mesrobyan spelling with Eastern Armenian pronunciations.

 

And who's to say it shouldn't be pronounced YAKOB? Just like HARUT/HAROUT can be YARUT/YAROUT?

 

We'll never really know the truth about the tricky "hee/yee" letter I guess.

 

And by the way the variation of AKOB exists only because the letter H doesn't exist in the Russian language and we all know how much influence the Russians have had on our heritage.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Proud EXPAT

[gellamelan]

I'm arevmdahay. so I'd spell it how I've always learned. Hagop with a HEE.

now. this is a totally odar word... as you said it goes way back to Aramaic or something!

and when it comes to foreign words, there is no right or wrong spelling.

so westerners usually spell it how they would pronounce it, which in English corresponds to HAGOP. and Easterners spell it HAKOP or HAKOB.

I don't think you should worry about it that much. it's not an Armenian word. spell it as you please. it's your name!

[Proud EXPAT]

I'm arevmdahay. so I'd spell it how I've always learned. Hagop with a HEE.

now. this is a totally odar word... as you said it goes way back to Aramaic or something!

and when it comes to foreign words, there is no right or wrong spelling.

so westerners usually spell it how they would pronounce it, which in English corresponds to HAGOP. and Easterners spell it HAKOP or HAKOB.

I don't think you should worry about it that much. it's not an Armenian word. spell it as you please. it's your name!

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So I guess in English you would pronounce it Hagop and in Armenian Hakob since that is what it would translate to. I'm guessing your birth certificate is in English? My birth certificate is in English and when I got my Armenian passport they translated my English spelling to Armenian, and completely brutalized my name.

[gellamelan]

So I guess in English you would pronounce it Hagop and in Armenian Hakob since that is what it would translate to. I'm guessing your birth certificate is in English? My birth certificate is in English and when I got my Armenian passport they translated my English spelling to Armenian, and completely brutalized my name.

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I don't really know what you're talking about but since I can't write in Armenian on this computer I'll spell out how I write Hagop in Armenian for u.

HEE

AIP

GEN

VO

PEN

 

if you don't know the letter names arevmdahye style, your loss.