MJ

naira Member Member # 397 posted June 11, 2001 02:09AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by THOTH: ...and I am into "wierd" music - Like Nina Hagen etc - [though I am primarily a Zappa head] well at least others might consider my musical tastes strange...they certainly are varied...and I am inot new stuff too)....I'd love to open a Nina Hagen thread...though don't know what it would have to do with Hye at all..LOL. I love her music BTW - and collect (older stuff)...she has had many looks - most all of them absolutly nasty/wicked... particularly the super-punk shaved head days...and her deep gutteral growl....ECSTACY! (...won't you be my fantasy...etc) - Diva - menace etc - so true...can you growl like that? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina Hagen, thread why not... she has a very rich professional and dense personal life and some outstanding humanitarian activity ... So we ould find many things to discuss. Besides I'm signed in her "fun club", as some of my other friends... Here is her official web place. She moderates personaly her forums. But mostly the one in German in English section as well, but rarely .... http://www.nina-hagen.com/ [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: naira ] This posting of Naira has been moved here from another thread.

Let me continue the list: Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Tashnaktsutiun) Armenian Liberal Democratic Party (Ramgavar) Armenian Social Democratic Party (Hnchagian). All of them still carry the symbol of Masonry on their Party Flags. Also were Masons the absolute Majority of Armenian Intelligentsia of pre-Genocide Istanbul. The Yahoo Search Engine also indicates that, recently, an Armenian Masonic Lodge has been established in Moscow.

How about sending those pictures to Garo, so that we all see them?

Yes, Hovik. Indeed you lost me.

Can you explain me why the german government has imposed restrictions on the scientology sect? Do you think it's by religious fanatism? Cannot read German Governement’s mind. But the Scientology is not a religion or sect. It is rather a philosophical movement. I am not asserting that being armenian should be assimilated to belonging to the armenian church as you can read my initial posting my discussion is about the newly introduced sects in Armenia and discussing their harmful effects to the state and those who are using these sects. As I said, in the eyes of many (and I somewhat may agree with it), the Armenian Church has been a sect throughout most of its history. It is just now trying to clean up its theological foundations. Let’s see where does it wind up. I don’t see any serious harm from any currently functioning sects in Armenia. I also recall the existence of a Baptist Church in Armenia for decades (on Nar-Dos street). It was branded as a “sect” in my time, but I realized later (after studying theology a little bit) that it was a very mainstream denomination. So when I present an argument against a sect let's not deviate from the discussion let's talk about the sects. Define “sects” for me, and tell me please why are they so harmful? You are right when you say the land should be the unifying factor but what if these groups directed from abroad decide one day that it's not in their interest to have a country named Armenia in that region of the world? Has it ever occurred to you that it has not been in the interests of the Armenian Church throughout most of its history, to have such a state as Armenia, but it was just in their interest to have an Armenian religious community, and so that to have total power over it, while serving faithfully every single enemy of Armenia? How about that? I did not mean US blackmail in Europe I meant in Turkey. I will give you a well known example here in Turkey by the public opinion, of a religious sect leader. His name is Fethullah Gulen. He is currently in USA and although Turkey has asked for his return, USA refuses to send him back while they sent back other wanted people to Turkey. This person who is the leader of a muslim sect, is accused of infiltrating the state, the army by introducing his disciples in them. His video cassettes where he was preaching his disciples to infiltrate the state slowly and to create at the end an islamic state including also central Asia (military elements are already in action to create such a state in Central Asia) have been shown on TV. The policy of green belt is familiar to everybody (another proof of the use of the religion by USA against foreign countries) well this seems to be another green belt to be built inside CIS itself. You didn’t convince me. Sorry. This Fethullah Gulen case, whose disciples are year after year excluded from the secular turkish army for religious fundamentalism as they might later be from the administration, is the best documented and proven example I can present about the way US are taking advantage of sects in a country. Please do so. Those who strangely start talking about 'conspiracy theories' each time there is question of a secret US activity were not able to do so in this particular case as there was material proof that he was trying to infiltrate the state in order to destroy it as a secular republic. I know this line of thought on conspiracies. Usually it is resulted from the inability to explain things. When we cannot explain something, it is either Western Conspiracy, or American conspiracy, or Zionist conspiracy or Judeo-Masonic conspiracy. I am well aware of all this. So if you still have doubts that sects don't represent any danger to a State your opinion is not shared by courts... I had no illusions that they would share my opinions.

I think we have to keep calm under any circumstances. Besides, one always has a choice between the left-click and right-click buttons of his/her mouse, right?

I only know that Mekhitarist Congreation only continued on the road opened by the armenian church however I don't neglect their contribution. But the importance of their work can it be compared to what was produced during the golden ages of the armenian literature? Let’s assume so. How about the non-Orthodox Armenians’ contributions into the Armenian culture in the Golden Age, that the Armenian Church has destroyed? My analysis is not middle eastern : having spent ten years in Europe that is outside USA I can have a more objective view of the subject. On the other hand even if it was middle eastern why should it be wrong? I didn’t imply that if something is Middle Eastern, it should be wrong. I just thing that there is certain anti-American paranoia in the Middle Eastern Armenian community. Please tell us some details about the US blackmail in Europe through religious organizations. Please, also tell us why on the Earth or Heaven, the US has to be so stupid that to try to get implemented in Armenia through religious (non-Armenian) sects, if the history of Armenian Church demonstrates its wide openness of serving every whitch foreign intelligence agency. Why would Americans be so stupid, that to choose the questionable path of foreign sects, if there is a shorter and much assured path through the structures of the Armenian Church ( unless it is for diversion purposes, for example)? Thank you for the historical details. But you should also know that without the armenian church and later the two others if you want, we in Turkey would have been like any of these assimilated minorities like the Laz for example. How about trying to understand how the policies of the Armenian Church have made easier the Turkish invasion of the region? How about the fact that the first organization/entity changing irreversibly the Armenian demography on the (Western) Armenian soil against Armenians, effective the 10th Century has been the Armenian Church? How about it creating the current Armenian-Azerbaijani problem starting from the Damnation of the Aluanian Catholicosate? Additionally, what percentage of (Western) Armenians do you think has been prevented from the assimilation into Turkish identity? Finally who says religious division says weaker nation. I would say who says religious unity says backward totalitarian regime doomed to self-distraction - look at our own history. I am not for artificial divisions or artificial introductions of foreign elements. But the fact is that the association of Armenian identity with the Armenian Church is one of the greatest divisions of our nation in our days (and has always been throughout the history). For me there is no difference between Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Gnostic, Atheist, Communist, Western, Eastern, gay, lesbian, etc, Armenians, as far as their national identity is concerned. There is one unifying concept in my view – that is our country – not the imaginary one, not the historic one, and not the one in our dreams. A real, pragmatic, material and tangible one. If this concept/reality cannot unify us, then there is no need to speak even about unity, and there is no reality for any large-scale unity. There is no need to expire in agony. We can choose a much less painful death.

Dear Hovik, I have read it. I don't see why is it insulting. Sure, it is not "all honey and nut." But I think we can take it. As to not asserting things that we are not 100% sure about them, we should not implement that criterion selectively against Ara. If we (all of us) would have said here things that we agree on, or are 100% sure only, under the best scenario this forum would've resembled a banquet around a dining table with occasional interruptions for toasts.

I don't feel insulted, for example. Why do you feel so, Hovik?

Hovik, To save time, I'll reply in a Q&A format. Hope it is OK. Armenian church is first a national institution; Too bad. It shouldn't be, furthermore, it should’ve not been. Such capacity is in sharp contrast with the commandments of Jesus Christ. I am sure that exactly that capacity makes it to cease to be a spiritual institution, and it degrades the very essence of national institutions. Additionally, that capacity of the Church has been nothing but trouble for our nation. We have had national institutions before the establishment of the Armenian Church. The first Armenian national institution was the family of Patriarch Haik. We have had national Kingdoms before the Christianity, and have had variety of other national institutions, which have subsequently been killed as a result of the possessive policies of the Armenian Church. It's tne armenian church which made possible the flourishing of the armenian literature in the middle ages. Only partially. The literary and scientific heritage of the Mkhitarian Congregation, for example, is equally (if not more) impressive. Additionally, the Armenian Chuch has destroyed all the other literary, scientific, architectural, etc, national heritage. On such capacity, our Church has not been any better than the Ottomans or Mongols. Its contribution to our national heritage is invaluable and what these dignified sects have done for us other than destroying the unity of the nation and making it more vulnerable? The primary destroyer of Armenian Unity has been the Armenian Church. The nation was most united before the establishment of the Armenian Church. Its establishment has lead to the first significant division of the nation along the religious and other lines. The result has been the destruction of Armenian Kingdom. It has continued the policy of division of the nation on and off – all the way up to our modern days. It's true that they are serving their Christ better than any other traditional church but their Christ is not the one you think it's Uncle Sam. Typical Middle Eastern thesis, I should say. I don’t want to concentrate on Jehovah’s Witnesses. But I am well aware of some sects in the US, compared to whom the Armenian Church is a pagan Cult. And as Russia did(tell me if my memory is not good) the solution is simply to ban them as Armenia still lacks the power of money these sects have to struggle with them. Don’t know what Russians have done lately. But I can give you a Russian evidence from the 13th Century. In that era, Russians have faced a version of “Armenian Heresy” – read the echo of the Paulician movement. They have concluded that since the Armenian Church has been successful fighting the Paulicians out, the remedy was to introduce Cult of Grigor the Illuminator in Russia. (That’s how several Armenian facilities have appeared inside the Russian Church in the older buildings of the Russian Church in Novgorod, for example). Therefore, if any example of inquisition, the Armenian Church needs no outside examples. It has been the first one to give birth to such phenomenon. Surprise-surprise! In my view, the Armenian Church doesn’t have to fight with any sects, unless it wants to resort to its old inquisitional tactics. It has do deliver its own message, if it happens to have one. If it doesn’t have a message, its existence is not justified. The catholic church like protestants used to attract poor people in Anatolia to their church using the same methods as sects nowadays. It is not my place to rise in defense of the Catholic or Protestant Churches.

Hovik, I have to run now. Will reply, hopefully, later tonight. Or maybe, by that time, there would be no need in my reply.

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: but you have to make a choice between sects and the armenian church as people need to believe in something. Would you prefer sects and why? I don’t think that one has to make a choice between the sects and the Armenian Church. In the eyes of many others, the Armenian Church itself is a sect. Besides, there are many dignified sects devoted to the cause of Christ much more than the Armenian Church.

Dear Hovik, Let me just say that your last message was a gross misrepresentation and a misunderstanding of the role and function of the Armenian Church both in the communist and the pre-communist eras. In my view, there has never been more disgraceful organization in the history of Armenia than the Armenian Church. We have had this conversation in our forum many times. I would stop here so that not to repeat myself.

To the best of my knowledge, Armenia prosecutes the deserters and those who refuse to serve, in the first place. As to benefiting from whatever problems of the nation, the Armenian Church leads that list of such organizations, and historically not only it has benefited from it, but has supported the enslavement of the nation.

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: In my mind all these sects Mormons yehovah witnesses, Moon are political organisations. If a sect urges its members to refuse to serve in the army it's not a religious act any more it's a political act. Therefore it can be considered as intervening in politics. I don't quite agree with your description. The Witnesses truly believe that killing in any context - in or outside army is a sin, therefore they resent it. There are two relatively easy remedies that the state may implement: 1. It can utilize them in the army on a non combat capacity - medics, for example; 2. The Witnesses should have the right to advocate boycott of the army, but the State should exercise its right of persecuting according to the law the refusers to serve in the army. P.S. I misspoke above. I meant prosecuting rather than persecuting. [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Dear Ali, I have to commend you again for your much visionary material. I also join you in your optimism about the future. By in large, people are skeptics. As much as it may sound controversial due to the overwhelming impression of the conventional Armenian aspirations due to romantism or naivety, Armenians are skeptics. If in 1988 you would have said in Armenia that in three years Armenia would be independent and the USSR would cease to exist, under the best scenario you would’ve been a “romantic,” but more likely – “crazy.” As to the memory of people in repressive regimes – it stays there way after the repressions. I have gone to graduate school in Moscow. Have lived in the Central Dormitory of that University, which had tens of thousands of rooms. It was rumored that KGB had listening devices in all rooms, and they were listening all the conversations. It was nuts, but was a widely upheld belief. But nobody had bothered to think what kind of cost would’ve it implied, and what kind of KGB staff would’ve it required to monitor all the rooms. I am also sure, that KGB itself was using these rumors as a “preventive measure.” I can report to you that I have consistently tested the validity of the rumor, and have not found any evidence to support it. We have to always take the experience of USSR (as the most recent such experience) into consideration when evaluating the prominence of regimes. No regime other than the free ones can survive over the long run, because the authoritarian regimes cannot last. All the authoritarian regimes from South Africa to China and Cuba have either liberalized or are in the process. Turkey cannot be an exception. The speed of its liberalization is in the hands of its people and adversaries. Some of the Armenian clichés towards Turkey and Turks, in general, are products of most idiotic and handicap mentality, which thrives on the soil of fear. But borrowing Ara Baloisian’s terminology, I should say that these charlatans era is coming to its end.

Naira, For those of us who don't read French, your comments were not understood, here. For the rest of us, the "paragraph" referenced above from the France Press appears to be fabrication by the translator of the article. It appears that there is no such paragraph in the original text. What a shameful and dirty tactics of some homophobes …

The word “sect” in Soviet Armenian lexicon has carried a negative flavor. From what I understand, it is the same in France, am I right, Naira? However, there is nothing wrong with the concept and reality of sects. They should be not confused with cults. Most of the sects that I am aware of are very noble ones. I don’t think there is anything with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, either nor Mormons. In no way they are less of a religion than what is advocated by the Armenian Apostolic Church. In fact, I am ready to argue that the Witnesses are more righteous people then our brethren. Additionally, by the recognition of the current Catholocos, the inability of the Armenian Church to serve its purpose is what has provided various sects with a fertile ground for penetration. By in large, I think their presence on the Armenian soil is very positive phenomenon. They will have a very positive long-term impact. I don’t approve the meddling of these sects into the state issues. I don’t approve their efforts to boycott the service in army, their attmpted participation in the governance of the country, etc. I also don’t approve the opposite. But the precedent of meddling into the state issues on the Armenian soil has been set by the Armenian Apostolic Church. If it is OK for the Armenian Church to participate in politics, it is OK, in my view for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, too. I think the genuine atmosphere around religion may be established when the State deals with the State Issues, and the religions and Churches deal with religious issues. After all, this is what Jesus Christ has commended to all: “Give to the Caesar what belongs to the Caesar, and to the Lord what belongs to the Lord.” But in all this, the Armenian Church should be the first one to learn this lesson. Then, it would be justified to talk about other sects. [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Welcome to Hye Forum, Rouben, and thank you for the referral to the much interesting site. We look forward to your subsequent contributions to this site.

quote:Originally posted by Harut: who is Gilligan? i hope he's not the guy from that ancient tv show that they still show. He is.

quote:Originally posted by Harut: OK. the refferie has come!!!!!! <<<<< BREAK >>>>>>> time out!!! Or should we call you Gilligan?

quote:Originally posted by Sulamita: Brought back so many memories I used to go to Aragast (Paplavok) so often when I was in Erevan. Every time we went to a play at "Dramatikakan" we also had to take a table at Paplavok and enjoy the wonderful music being performed. The crowd was always very interesting ... especially around 1 am I think it's one of tbe best places to bump into friends and people you know ... Firt time I saw (and heard) Vahag at the piano was amazed. He's such an animated performer He was also a great vocalist.

quote:Originally posted by naira: She lives in NY? Boy, does she still sing? I loved her so much! Don't know. She used to.

Mike, We would take your suggestion about banning you under consideration. At this time, we would like to remind you that you are at liberty to leave this forum, if you don't like its tone. I am inclined to suspect that it may be in the common interests of this forum and you, personally. However, if you think you can restrain your urges and behave according to the Code of Conduct of the forum, you are welcome to stay, until we have evidence that you are a formerly banned person. This would be investigated.

Nope! here is the error message I get: "FYI This member is not accepting private messages. Please use your browser's back button to return." I will email to you later.