MJ

THOTH, Thanks. Hardly at this stage in my life I can commit time to studying Taoism. Hopefully can do it some day. However, as a general comment, one may be tempted to think that hardly it is possible for Christianity to support a warlike philosophy or practice cruelty. However, the world history has ample evidence of Christian atrocities.

Thoth, My understanding has been that some segments of the Japanese nation have been/are Taoists. Correct me if I am wrong, please. Whether they were part or a driving force in the Japanese army, I don’t know. Christians and Muslims definitely have committed atrocities in the name of God and Religion. But I think that the Religion has not been the driving force of atrocities, in general. It has been/is rather used by the rulers – secular and religious. In most of the cases, it is used to either justify the atrocities, or to give the fighters hope for a better life in case they fall in the process. In general, Religion has not much to do with faith and spirituality, and it disgusts me - any religion. Neither in Judaic, nor in Christian or Islamic systems God has created Religion. It is men-made even if we arrive from the supposition that Jesus is the living Son of God, or Mohammed is a true prophet of God. Neither one of them has not established Religion. As far as Christianity is concerned, we have to notice that it is primarily delivered to us in fables that Jesus has spoken or acted upon, allegedly. One of the interesting fables is the one of the damnation and distraction of the fig tree by the Messiah because the tree was not been producing fruits. In other instances there are other questionable statements by Christ - for example, “I have not come to bring peace, but sward.” It may be interpreted and exploited differently by different parties. And I am sure it has been done. Depends on one’s agenda.

Thoth, By referring to the atrocities committed by Taoists or Buddhists I had the Japanese cruelties in Korea and China in the past century in mind. But I am not relating it to the religion, but just wanted to make a point that representatives of all religions have committed similar atrocities when the circumstances have allowed. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Thoth, By referring to the atrocities committed by Taoists or Buddhists I had the Japanese cruelties in Korea and China in the past century. But I am not relating it to the religion, but just wanted to make a point that representatives of all religions have committed similar atrocities when the circumstances have allowed.

Negative views on Muslims in no way are generated by the American politics, but rather the historic image of some Islamic countries. American politics is not religion oriented to any degree. To the contrary, American politics is strongly positive towards some Islamic countries (Arab countries with the exception of Iraq, Sudan, and partially, Syria). Even when the American politics is negative towards some Islamic countries, it is not on the grounds of religion. But I agree with you that most of the Muslims are very kind and sensitive people. P.S. You seem to have the same stereotypes about America as many people have about Islam. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Harut, We have significant volum of materials on Gurdjieff in this forum.

ASSEMBLY CALLS LAUNCH OF HIGH-LEVEL TURKISH-ARMENIAN RECONCILIATION COMMISSION A "MAJOR ADVANCE" ------- July 10, 2001 Washington, DC -- The Armenian Assembly of America praised the launching of a high-level Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission, announced today in Geneva, Switzerland, as a significant international development. After years of talking through intermediaries, this Commission will promote direct dialogue and cooperation to address the issues dividing Armenians and Turks. Comprised of a diverse and highly talented group, its membership includes ten private individuals from Armenia, Turkey, Russia and the United States: Gunduz Aktan, former Turkish Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva and currently a columnist for the Turkish Daily News; Alexander Arzoumanian, former Foreign Minister of the Republic of Armenia; Ustun Erguder, former president of Bogazici University (previously Robert College); Sadi Erguvenc, retired general, Republic of Turkey; David Hovhannissian, former Armenian Ambassador to Syria and currently an Assistant Professor at Yerevan State university; Van. Z. Krikorian, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Armenian Assembly of America; Andranik Migranian, former Foreign Policy Advisor to Russian President Boris Yeltsin and a member of the Union of Armenians in Russia; Ozdem Sanberk, former Deputy Foreign Minister of the Republic of Turkey and currently Executive Director of the Istanbul think tank TESEV; Ilter Turkmen, former Foreign Minister of the Republic of Turkey; and, Vamik D. Volkan, a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. "This is the first multi-disciplinary, comprehensive attempt to reconcile differences between two neighbors, separated by bitterness and mistrust, and as such, it is a major advance. After years of indirect mediation attempts, it is the first time that the two parties are talking directly to each other," said Chairman of the Assembly's Board of Trustees, Hirair Hovnanian. "I am particularly proud that the Assembly's Board of Directors Chairman Van Krikorian is on this high-level Commission. He has an outstanding track record as an advocate for Armenia and I commend his determination and initiative. I firmly believe that it is to the benefit of everyone, particularly those living in the region, to explore any mutually acceptable solutions to the problems between Turkey and Armenia." The Assembly's Board of Trustees President Carolyn Mugar also applauded the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission. "I have observed the reconciliation process at work in South Africa and Northern Ireland. The legal, psychological and political issues are always difficult and complex, but it is incumbent on us all to make every attempt," said Mugar. "We believe that the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission will benefit and build on the experiences of other similar international efforts. We applaud those efforts, and because of them, believe that the time may well be ripe for us to advance Turkish-Armenian relations. Mutual understanding opens new prospects and can only benefit the people of Armenia and Turkey." The Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission's goal is "to promote mutual understanding and good will between Turks and Armenians, and to encourage improved relations between Armenia and Turkey." Its terms of reference state that the Commission will support contact, dialogue and cooperation between Armenian and Turkish civil society and develop recommendations to be submitted to concerned governments. --- The Armenian Assembly of America is the largest Washington-based nationwide organization promoting public understanding and awareness of Armenian issues. It is a 501 ©(3) tax-exempt membership organization. ----------- http://www.aaainc.org/press/7-10-01.htm

You are right. And with the same token, neither does any real Muslim.

Today I have received a mail offer to obtain an Armenian Assembly of America Platinum Plus MasterCard at 1.7% introductory rate, with no annual fee. The Card is issued by MBNA America Bank. Phone number: 800-437-0180.

Therefore, one may claim that our forum is on the frontier of Armenian political thought.

He has led the Polish army to a wasteland. Susaniin is a legendary Russian peasant, the hero of the renowned opera of Glinka.

Sorry, I had misunderstood your comment about AOL Message Board, therefore, it had looked too generalizing to me. I know that Seldjuks had nothing to do with the ruining of Ani. What is the "official" date of Ani's construction, btw?

OK. I'll send a couple of emails to some friends in Armenia, and ask them to collect some information.

Steve, I have posted a material in the City of Ani thread about the explosions being supposedly stopped as of May 31. Therefore, the references may be of not much importance at this time. However, please share the photos with us when you have them. As to the credibility of the materials in Armenian sites... Do you have any example of non-credible and non-challanged material or allegation of any degree of importance in this site? [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Havik, Hye Forum is a dangerous place for primitive and banal one-cell organisms. It is especially not a graveyard for such organisms inclined to commit suicide so that to end their misery. However, this Forum gives everybody a chance to go through evolution. Those losers who fail to capitalize on this opportunity may try to pretend being victimized, however it would be of no consequence. One–cell organisms, unless evolving, contaminate the environment, and in the interests of the environment their existence may be found inexpedient.

Unofficial Commission Acts to Ease Turkish-Armenian Enmity By DOUGLAS FRANTZ Special from The New York Times ISTANBUL, July 9 — A group of prominent people from Armenia and Turkey put the final touches today on a reconciliation commission intended to open the way for a new era in relations between two neighbors divided by nearly a century of conflict and hatred. The participants, including some former officials, have been meeting discreetly for many months. This was the first time they had spoken publicly about the effort, which is likely to evoke strong reactions among Turks and Armenians worldwide. The private group, the Turkish- Armenian Reconciliation Commission, is trying to foster cooperation and communication that will lead to direct talks between the governments of the two countries. "This is not a substitute for what the Turkish and Armenian governments must do, but it can contribute momentum and develop recommendations," David L. Phillips, an American who teaches conflict prevention at the Diplomatic Academy of Vienna, said in a telephone interview from Geneva, where he moderated the meeting today. Turkey broke diplomatic relations and closed its border with Armenia almost a decade ago after a war started between Armenia and Azerbaijan, a Turkish ally. The deeper division, however, is rooted in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire. By most historical accounts, the Ottomans killed more than one million Armenians between 1915 and 1923 in a concerted effort to eliminate the ethnic Armenian population from what is now Turkey. Armenians have waged an international campaign to have the events declared genocide. Turkish officials reject calling the deaths genocide, disputing the number killed and the circumstances. In a new government publication, Turkey said that there were far fewer deaths and that Muslims were also killed when Armenians rebelled against the Ottoman government. The 10-member commission will not determine the validity of either position. Instead, it will explore ways to bridge the gap, participants said. "The intent is not to find what the truth is, but it is to open new horizons for the future and enhance mutual understanding," Ozdem Sanberk, executive director of a private foundation in Istanbul and a former Turkish ambassador to Britain, said in an interview. Alexander Arzoumanian, chairman of the main opposition party in Armenia and a former foreign minister, said the commission offered a chance to overcome past conflicts by opening a dialogue. Similar private efforts have paid off elsewhere, including in South Africa, said Elie Wiesel, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize and a professor at Boston University. "I see this event as a miracle," Mr. Wiesel said in a telephone interview from New York. "If Turks and Armenians can meet and talk, that means others can do it, too." The reconciliation commission finalized language today for its founding charter and developed a list of initial activities. It will support cultural exchanges, efforts to improve business and tourism and programs in education and research. Plans call for a collaborative documentary on nationalism and discussions with historians, lawyers and psychologists. The Turkish and Armenian governments are not involved, but participants said both had given tacit approval. The State Department supported the initiative; and Andranik Migranian, an Armenian adviser to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, is a commission member. Several commission members said initial suspicions and wariness among members had given way to an encouraging degree of cooperation and understanding. But they said uncertainties remained. "I'm sure there are people who will give us a chance and people who are interested in keeping the situation the way it has been," said Van Z. Krikorian, a lawyer in New York and chairman of the Armenian Assembly of America, the largest Armenian- American advocacy group. "It may crash and burn." Armenian-Americans are among the harshest critics of Turkey's treatment of Armenians, but Mr. Krikorian said he expected a majority to welcome the dialogue. One of the biggest challenges, some members said, will be persuading Turks and Armenians to recognize their starkly different psychological interpretations of what happened from 1915 to 1923. Vamik D. Volkan, a commission member and psychiatry professor at the University of Virginia, said the deaths of relatives and ancestors at the hands of Turks were an essential part of the identity of most Armenians, while Turks were taught little about what happened in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. "There is no such thing as being Armenian without a reference to what happened," said Dr. Volkan, who was born in Turkish Cyprus. "We lost an empire, and we did not grieve over it." Dr. Volkan said Armenian participants were surprised to learn that some of the Turks came from families that had suffered after being driven from other parts of the Ottoman Empire. "Armenians cannot even imagine that Turks suffered, too," he said. "The key will be to find an empathetic understanding that they all suffered."

quote:Originally posted by Mayja: Sorry dear Mj, i didnt get u? Have you heard of Ivan Susanin?

I just found the following material at http://www.asbarez.com/aol/2001/010515.htm Armenia Responds To Turkish Accusations Regarding Destruction of Ruins of Ani YEREVAN (combined sources)--An article published in the Turkish Hurriet newspaper on May 8 accused Armenia of deliberately destroying the ruins of Ani by means of explosions in the stone quarries near the Armenian-Turkish border. That article was part of the anti-Armenian hysteria raised in Turkey, Secretary General of the National Commission of Armenia for UNESCO Affairs to the Foreign Ministry of Armenia Varduhi Asaturian said. She further noted that blasting operations ceased a month ago. A statement released by the Armenian foreign ministry, mentions a message that was sent by Turkey's permanent representative to UNESCO on December 18 of last year. Turkey filed a complaint with UNESCO, accusing Armenia of deliberately destroying the ruins of Ani by means of explosions in the mines located 600 meters from the Turkish border. The letter claimed that the explosions are causing damage to the Ani Cathedral, another church, and a mosque. UNESCO forwarded the letter to the Armenian government, requesting a review of the matter. Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian sent a letter to Industry and Trade Minister Karen Chshmaritian, requesting him to take appropriate measures. The blasting operations were stopped in case damage was actually being caused to the medieval Armenian capital of Ani, which is treasured by all Armenians. Chshmaritian has stated that the mining will resume till May 31 so that the St. Gregory the Illuminator Cathedral in Yerevan can be completed. The foreign ministry statement says Armenia understands and agrees with the concerns raised by Turkey. However, the Armenian side does not have the slightest intention of damaging the ruins of Ani. The fact that the Turks chose to apply to international bodies before approaching Armenia is an indication of Turkish efforts to politicize the issue, rather than deal with the actual problem of preserving the landmarks, says the statement. The Turkish government's concern for historic Armenian landmarks located on its territory is inconsistent with the decades-long official Turkish state policy of intentionally destroying or converting these landmarks into Turkish monuments.

Steve, Could you provide us with precise references for the issue of the Agos magazine where the above material is published, please? Also, please let us know if you have the photos you mentioned.

The interesting thing is that this picture was clear more than 10-20 years ago. Soviets knew that there was not much oil and gas in the Azerbaijani territory. My understanding is that the extensive advertising of Azerbaijan was a calculated bluff by several parties. The idea was to build pipelines under the illusion of vast resources of Azerbaijani oil and gas, and subsequently, after the failure to produce the promised resources, use the existing pipelines as a justification for transporting the Turkmen gas and Kazakh oil through these pipelines. Basically, Azerbaijan built its entire foreign policy playing the "oil card." Assuming that it fails to produce the "promised" oil reserves, its foreign policy may suffer a major fiasco.

Where do you get your education from? And so that once in your entire existance in this forum you say something meaningful rather than attacking unintelligently others, could you define what a sect means - that is if you are a mainstream human being

quote:Originally posted by Paul bunyan: Look what the muslims are doing in Sudan in addition to the genocide, they have re-introduced slavery! Did you also look at what the Christians were doing to Muslims or to each other in the Balkans in the last decade?

Mainstream human being know where do they belong to. Apparently some suicidal maniacs with semi-functional brains, and one-eyed vision don’t. These maniacs have a habit of throwing themselves on a fork. I don’t enjoy “the taste of blood,” and do my best not to “shed” it, unless one doesn’t give me “other choices.” Suffice for now.

I am always late...

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: No, MJ, Jerusalem is no longer a Patriarchate, they decided to transform it into an antique shop once and for all. Yeah? For how much do the manuscripts go these days?