MJ

quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: Which parts do you want me to prove? The innformation about the Diet? I havnt got too much time on me, but I can try and find info on particular points you disagree with me on. So just list the points you want proven, and I'll do my best. While Im at it I would appreciate it if you could back your claims of: 1. The Diet lasting only 2-3 days 2. The Turks defeated BEFORE the Diet was formed [ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] You have made a whole bunch of indenfensible statements. Why don't you defend them one-by-one?

Please do so.

Who is the author of that book, Steve?

Dear SAS, Thank you for reviving the thread. Given that we had opened such a thread earlier, would you mind reposting "HRAZHESHTI GAZEL" there, please? http://armenians.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimat...c&f=21&t=000034

Agassi won a bumpy game against the Frenchman Escude, today, and advanced to the semifinals, here he will meet Rafter. It should be a beautiful game.

quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: On some occasions however what you may percieve as fact is fiction. That's what bothered me in your previous materials.

The other side of the story is always encouraged. However that may concern only to the interpretations. There is no "other side of the story" as far as the facts are concerned. The other side of the story on the facts is called "misinformation," at best, which is not advisable, and would be fought out.

I am aware of a situation, where the fan was heating the computer instead of colling it. It was mounted into the computer in some opposite way. However, this would make the computer crash regardless of the IE. It would do so with all applications, or running no applications at all.

quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: My Armenian history may be dusty, but claims that the Diet only lasted 2-3 days are redicullous. I am glad that this is the only thing you found to be ridiculous in my statements.

Juggernaut, Of coarse I am not trying to insult you. But forgive me if I say that you indeed have no clue what you are talking about. However, of coarse you can express opinions – right or wring. Now, I want to go to bed.

OK. I have a reply from the first friend. Armenian citizens do not need Visa at all to enter Georgia.

Aaron, It is hard for me to imagine that the population in the city of Vedi in Armenia lives in better conditions. There is practically no industry there, and the population of city, by in large, doesn’t have access to the farms to grow its own means of survival, the government hasn’t paid pension to elderly for months, perhaps, it hasn’t paid salaries for months to the teachers and other federal employees, etc. Please tell me how much better may the situation in Vedi be compared to the Armenian population of Akhalkalaki (I am bringing Vedi up only as an example)? Also, do the Georgians of Akhalkalaki, or Javakhk, in general, get a better treatment from the Georgian government? Besides, doesn’t the majority of the Armenian population in Armenia claim that the Armenian government is careless, and doesn’t give a damn about them? As far as the Georgian politicians are concerned, of coarse there are or there may be some of them hostile to the Armenians. But don’t you think we can find similar Armenian politicians hostile to Georgians? But I find the mentioned hostility from both sides being based on absurd emotions. I couldn’t follow what is the implication of Javakhk’s or Akhalkalaki’s being an ancient Armenian name (assuming it is correct). The problems that the Armenian population of Javakhk is facing are of socio-economic character, as both governments admit, and have declared in the past. However, these problems are not any worse than similar problems in some regions of Armenia. My understanding is that this is what you are saying, too. I think the will to improve things exists from both sides. However, the means to implement such a will are absent at this time. When the economies of both countries get back on track, then one may try to implement them. For now, it is going to be difficult. But the important thing is that we ourselves shouldn’t invent enemies, but should rather give the initiative to others to identify themselves as enemies or friends. We should position ourselves as friends, and then see if others shake our hand or not. [ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

I will write a couple of friends in Armenia, and will ask them to check your information about the $200.00 fee. Then I will report it to the forum. Obviously, I don’t believe in such a fee being an official one for Armenians, and only Armenians entering Georgia. If nothing else, at least because Georgia owes substantial (for its scale) financial debt to Armenia, and lately it has been in negotiations with the Armenian government to restructure their debt due to their inability to make the payments. If anything of the kind you convey to us was in place, I am sure the Armenian government would’ve pressured them to eliminate such policy. Juggernaut - As pointed out by Aaron it is significantly better, at least they would be treated like humans by the authorities. It is true that Armenians have traditionally complained that they were not treated as equal citizens in Georgia. It is too bad. However, there are two sides to this issue. Currently, Georgians perceive Russia as a threat to their sovereignty and statehood. Some segments of Armenians, which I understand you also belong to, support using of the Russian card against Georgia. If this is true, I think it is legitimate not only to perceive Armenians of Georgia as second category citizens, but also enemies of the state of Georgia. However, since the independence of both Republics, the subsequent governments of Armenia have engaged in direct relations with the governments of Georgia with the purpose of ironing the existing wrinkles. Our governments have had adequate wisdom to understand that whatever issues do or may exist between Armenia(ns) and Georgia(ns), may be resolved directly, without appealing to third parties. I hope that others outside the government also understand it. Let me also note that given my neutrality towards you due to the absence of a history of relations between the two of us, you could not disappoint me. Additionally, it is a common sense knowledge that no normal person strives for war. No wife or no mother wants to send her son or husband to fight in a war. Normal people try to resolve whatever issues they have through the available peaceful means, unless all the means are exhausted, and the situation is unbearable. Only those who try to benefit from disasters (to enrich themselves or for some other reason), or the pathological human failures opt for war. And as a rule, those who opt for war are the first ones to become deserters when the war breaks up, or their daddies find “warm” spots for them in the army. As far as your quotation of the Roman Emperor goes, I couldn’t understand whether you were ashamed of it or were taking pride in it. Juggernaut - It is through great political thinking that we have survived through history, the source however dried up around 300 years ago (due to lack of education), it is our duty to replenish it and utilize it if we as a nation are to exist much longer. This is perhaps the most upside-down statement in your previous material. It is due to the absence of adequate political thinking that we have inflicted all the historical disasters upon ourselves. The statements about the survival of Armenians are most ridiculously exaggerated. It is like a family with 7 children, which because of its lack of adequate uprising of children has lost 6 of them, and takes pride in the survival of the 7th child, attributing it to their wisdom of raising children. Juggernaut - Well it has been a province at least on one occasion, during the rule of Tigran. Also one small Christian betraying another Christian nation in a sea of Islam (and other invaders at times), can in my opinion be branded a traitor. I am not interested in the arguments for the sake of the arguments. You obviously have the right to make such statements. And others would, obviously, exercise their discretion regarding how serious to take your statements, and moreover. I also find the logic of your following numerated statements to be significantly flawed. 1. First nation to withdraw from the Trans-Caucasian Diet after the collapse of the Russian Monarchy, thereby leaving us to the wolves (Turks). Georgia has entered into this (non-viable) Diet out of its own interests, and not to protect Armenia. And it has pulled out of it due to its own interests. Georgia had no obligations to Armenia, and was not supposed to become the guardian angel of Armenia. It had enough of its own problems. “Adults” are supposed to take care of themselves. The very fact that that alleged Diet has lasted 2-3 days comes to demonstrate that it has been baseless Confederation, and has been an absurd in the first place. It comes to demonstrate one more time the stupidity (softly speaking) of the Armenian leadership of the time. No wonder they couldn’t last. Additionally, immediately prior to the establishment of the alleged Diet, we had already prevailed against the Turks in the battles of Sardarabad, Bash-Abaran and Gharakilise – the only instance in the entire history of Armeno-Turkish relations, when the two armies have gone against each other head-to-head. Subsequently, Turkey has been the first state to recognize Armenia’s independence. 2. War to be in control of the majority Armenian populated Akhalkalaki region. Due to the incompleteness of this statement of yours, I couldn’t understand what were you trying to convey. If you meant that Georgia has gone into war against Armenia to control Akhalkalaki, it would’ve only meant that you have no clue what you were talking about. However, I suspect you meant something else. 3. Allience with the Germans and the Turks in anticipation of total collapse of the Eastern Front. Georgia’s (as well as Armenia’s) independence has become possible as a result of the collapse of the Eastern Front, in the first place. In that period, Georgia has not been able to enter into an alliance with anybody in any capacity, merely due to being a Russian colony. It simply has not existed other than a geographical term. It’s alliance with Germany and Turkey has followed the collapse of the Eastern Front, therefore it is inconsequential in the context you have raised. 4. Cut off our energy supplies (coming from Russia) in 1991-1993 by diverting gas/oil etc. and blowing up pipelines (and their still at it from time to time). First of all, I think it is very insincere to allege that Georgia has blown our pipelines. All of us, including you, know very well who has been behind the blow-ups of the pipelines. Additionally, Georgia has not cut-off our gas supplies coming from Russia. As their high level officials have admitted it in the past, they have stolen some of it. It is a situation like both you and your neighbor are starving to death, and your neighbor steel food from you to feed his children. It sure is not a good behavior, but it is understandable, isn’t it? Juggernaut - Am I saying they aren’t, they want to join NATO now, but so did Macedonia, I don’t know if they (Macedonians) still do. So? Why shouldn’t they want to do so, or what a business of yours and mine is it, other than being a concern for Armenia? I wouldn’t use the word disaster here, more like 'set-back', there isn’t much trade going on between the two countries and all produce going through Georgia is heavily 'taxed', due to corruption, bandits etc. Sure. As much as one may call the post-Independence era a setback for Armenia, on may also call Georgia’s weakness “set-back.” The very dominance of the illegal “taxing” authorities on the road of Georgia is a very graphic demonstration of the consequences of its weakness. [ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Aaron: Its sad to notice, but it seems that the javakhk case is being sacrificed for the well being of the rest of Armenia, and I must admit that there are no other alternatives (besides Armenia helping javakhk economically, which won't happen for a while). Two questions, only, Aharon. Which statement of mine did you disagree with, and what means "Javakhk case?"

Today he advanced to the quarterfinals. Played very solid game against Keifer, and won 3:0.

Dear Juggernaut, The information about the $200.00 conveyed to us in your message doesn’t imply a policy of pushing Armenians out of Georgia. It may only imply that the cash starved Georgians are trying to make money from every possible source. Additionally, it is not clear to me whether the amount you mentioned is an official amount, or is or reflective of the corruptness of local customs officers. As we all know, huge numbers of younger Armenians are leaving Armenia in search of employment. In this sense Akhalkalaki is not much different. I am also well familiar with the sentiments of some segments of the population of Djavakhk in Georgia. However, it doesn’t make me to be supportive of them, much the same way as the government of Armenia is not supportive of them. However, I don’t think that he entire Armenian population of Javakhk is “war-like,” as you qualify them. Most of the population is peaceful, though most of them may be quite dissatisfied by their socio-economic conditions. But the life in Armenia is not much better. I don’t think that the feeling of the Russian base in Javakhk being asset for Armenians (beyond that of being a major employer in the region) is a general feeling by Armenians, while Georgians perceive it threatening their sovereignty. If it was the case I, personally, would’ve denounced my Armenian identity, because I would’ve been ashamed to be a representative of such a sneaky and undignified nation. I also cannot take with any degree of seriousness the allegation of Georgians being traitors. First of all, Georgia has never been an Armenian province, therefore it could not be considered traitor no matter what. Second, in no way they have done anything seriously negative against Armenia in the post-Genocide period - they haven’t even been in position to do so even if they would’ve wanted to. Nor they have done so during the 91-93 energy crisis – they are an energy starved country on their own. Third, they have a full right to conduct military exercises with Turkey, Mozambique, or Shri Lanka, if they decide to do so. That is part of their sovereignty. With the same token, Armenia’s conducting of military exercises with Russia might be qualified (equally not justifiably so) as selling of the Georgians out by the Armenian side. And, unfortunately, some Georgians follow to such motto. Finally, it is in best interests of Armenia to have strong and stable neighbor in Georgia. Georgia’s weakness would be a disaster for Armenia, much like it has been during 91-93. I also think that it is long overdue for us to be more mature about our ways and feelings, and not to make enemies at our liberty. People/nations are judged by their ability to make friends rather than enemies. The elementary dignity is a prerequisite for normal relations between the individuals and the nations alike, I think. Additionally, we have no serious problems with Georgia, never have had them, and we have had only one episode of small-scale conflict in our entire history with Georgia. The important thing to understand is that we have nothing to share with Georgia other than prosperity.

Agassi advanced to the 4th round of Wibledon 2001, today, easily winning Nicolas Massu (Chi) 6-3, 6-1, 6-1.

Steve, I am far from implying that the explosions are not taking place and are rumors, and I am very concerned about them. However, I don't think that writing to a President that per testimony of Steve Bellthecat explosions are taking place around Ani ads a lot of weight in his eyes. At least the ellmentary professionalsim requires some supporting materials.

I think at least having precise references on the reports on explosions would be good. Imagine how stupid our appeal would look, if it would turn out that it is based on rumors rather than facts.

I don’t think that Karabagh straggle is necessarily a manifestation of nationalism. At least, it has not been such manifestation on in its legal capacity. National Liberation Ideals are recognized and validated by the appropriate UN Resolutions as legitimated causes even for armed straggle. About a dozen of years ago I could refer you precisely to the corresponding UN Resolution. These days, I cannot do it without a special research, which I don’t feel is necessary at this time. It is a different matter that the Karabagh movement, which has started as a Parliamentary and constitutional movement, has given rise to nationalistic sentiments from both sides. This is most unfortunate. But it has been resulted from atrocities committed by the Azerbaijani side against the civilians of Armenian origin within and outside Karabagh. At this time, the emotions run high, and there is obvious nationalistic sentiment on both sides of the fence. We have to recognize that Karabagh has acted in full compliance with the International Law. It has conducted referendum, and based on the results of the referendum, the Parliament of Karabagh has declared its independence. Moreover, International Law provides clarifications regarding the procedures and mechanisms of separation of regional units from the larger states incorporating them. The clarifications provided by the International Law come to specify the mechanisms and procedures of implementation of the separation as a process solely defined by the laws of the “host” state. On this capacity, the declaration of the separation of Karabagh has been in full compliance with the latest Constitution of USSR. Therefore, from the legal point of view, the actions of Karabagh have been totally legitimate in the view of the International Law, and the Constitution of USSR, at the time. The escalation of the conflict has resulted not from the absence of a proper legal framework, but from the absence of adequate political will from Azerbaijan and the international community. The political deadlock on the subject of the issue, and the non-willingness of, first USSR, then Azerbaijan, to resolve the problems peacefully have resulted in the military escalation. You may remember that in the Soviet era of the conflict, basically the entire Karabagh, outside Stepanakert, was occupied by the Central Special Soviet forces, and Azerbaijan, which were jointly conducting policy of elimination of Armenians from the soil of Karabagh through their exile. The situation changed as a result of the collapse of the USSR, when Armenians were left face-to-face with Azerbaijan. We know the outcome, now. Clearly, the Armenian forces of Karabagh occupy territories outside Azerbaijan, thus creating a buffer zone. The Armenian side has expressed its readiness to vacate those territories assuming that convincing and adequate securities are provided to the population of Karabagh. The Armenian side has also expressed readiness to accommodate those unfortunate Azeris of Karabagh, which in the process of the military actions had abandoned or forcefully moved from their compact residence inside Karabagh. Unfortunately, at this time, other than some mutual understanding between the Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan, there is not much progress in the settlement of the problem. There is an impression that Azerbaijan is counting on the inability of Armenia to develop adequate economy in the near future, and thus in its inability to take a strong position in the negotiations. I think this is where they make a mistake. This mistake doesn’t benefit either side. Additionally, I think both sides have to work hard on reducing the nationalistic rhetoric in their respective countries, and inside the support domain of these countries. It is a hard task, however, because both regimes have come to power by exploiting nationalistic sentiments, and planting seeds of hatred towards the other party. It is sort of hard to take the opposite position at this time. Therefore, the initiative of reducing the nationalistic rhetoric (which never leads to anything positive) and eliminating the atmosphere of mutual hatred has to come from th ordinary people of both nations.

Juggernut, Even if we assume that the information conveyed by you on the $200 fee is correct, it doesn’t connect logically with the desire of the Georgians to make Armenians of Georgia leave, since it is allegedly being imposed on the citizens of Armenia entering the Republic of Georgia, while Georgian Armenians are supposedly, Georgian citizens. Unemployment is a serious problem in the entire Georgia, as well as in Armenia. The employment is not granted in either Republic along the ethnic lines. I don’t see why should a conflict erupt between Armenians and Georgians. We have to do our best to prevent such conflict. As far as the Russian military on the territory of Georgia being an asset for us is concerned, I would be ashamed to admit such an asset, and would feel disgust towards Armenians, if I knew it is a general Armenian feeling. Thank God it is not. Georgia is a sovereign country – much like Armenia. And it has full sovereignty in making decisions which countries military basis it may or may not allow on its soil.

I don't see why should we blame it on Georgian Nationalism? Though, understandably, the closing of the Russian base, which is the largest employer in the region, would force some segments of the Armenian population out of the region for economic reasons.

Seem like it is him.

Maybe. At the time I knew him, we used to call him Vahagnik. Next time I talk to my cousin, I'll ask him his Vahagn's last name. He would remember.

I agree with you, Boghos. One can frequently come across a lot of people who talk on behalf of patriotism, and make exclamations within or outside patriotic songs, but when it comes to practice, they destroy the social fabric of the nation and the country. I have always had trouble with verbal "patriots." In my view, the patriotism starts from the respect to the legal, economic and political structure of the country. If something is wrong with that structure, patriots do not exploit it, but rather try to reform. Needless to say that this is not a universal understanding.