MJ

You can delete my post, too, if you want.

Sip, I am too annoyed with this topic and this forum to pick an argument up or engage. If I have made an impression that I am calling you personally a sleaze-balling idiot, I apologize. I don’t think you are an idiot, and I don’t think that your material, of all other things here, was the one to trigger my reaction. My comment, in this particular case, was more related to the general atmosphere of this forum than any particular individual. However, your last reaction leads me to an observation that you experience some feeling of hidden guilt. But that is besides the point. And I don’t care what you think about this or other individual or official. That is a matter of personal liberty even under the worst-case scenario. When I pay a quick glance at this forum, with rare exceptions, I feel disgusted by its low quality materials, general sleaze-balling atmosphere, the repulsive sentimental drivers behind most of the postings, the infinite masturbations on irrelevant or long chewed-out topics, lack of consistency and coherence of thought, lack of purpose but to kill time, and so on. I remember days when it was a better place. Now, it has become a place for adolescents and those experiencing their second adolescence. But even that could have been done with better taste and purpose. Now, if this is some kind of private forum not representative of Armenia and Armenians, I don’t care. Every one has the liberty to say whatever garbage he/she wants. But when it is the outlet, when a simple Googling brings it up to the top of the list, I would expect that there should be some responsibility for what is being said here, or better, with what quality. You know, it is like the Symphony Orchestra of Armenia coming to perform in the Carnegie Hall within the framework of the week of Armenian Culture, and performing “Hye em yes, hye es du.” What do you think would a normal Armenian feel. Will it be attributed to the freedom of the artistic expression? Now you tell me what the purpose of this forum is and why the total lack of its quality control, please, and then I will finally understand, maybe, that I should not stick my nose in here.

Nor I want to propose anything for the forum. If I have proposals, I have better places to make them. My question is for others to think not for me to provide answers.

Why should I propose something for you, Domino? Isn't it time that you grow up, graduate to the next level and decide for yourself? I think I have observed you on the Internet for about four years, now (Correct me if I am wrong.). Sure, you have come long way since I saw you first time. But isn't it time that you ask yourself what is it that you want to do with your time and life? Or do you want to go around-and-around, chewing the same gum, which has long turned into piece of rubber?

Interesting catch, Arpa. Quite possible. In his era, the Paulicians or, better, Tondraketcis were a major presence in Armenia, to be finally wiped out by the Russian government per Armenian Churches request.

As I said, I am not trying to make a personal comment. I am just raising a question for all the activists of this forum. Does this forum have any good purpose? Or is it a venue for bringing up any issue and stimulating endless masturbations with no apparent result or dignified purpose?

You know, Domino, I just get tired of this idiocy - whether joke or not. People whose intelligence can be questioned most easily and dissected usually are the ones first questioning others' intelligence. And I don’t mean to be personal. Don’t you guys get tired spewing venom and garbage day-in day-out? Don’t you have anything better to do or if you want to do something good, is there no other way to do it but turn everything into sleaze ball? What is it that you want in your lives? Do you aspire for anything? Or does it reinforce your self-importance by going out and contaminating the environment with verbal diarrhea? Is it the fact that internet is a special media which makes one to be so irresponsible and repulsive or are all these people the same xxxx in real life, as well?

Yes, Arpa. I do understand, for example. There is no question that the Armenia Genocide is a source of pain both for Armenians and Turks. Perhaps for different reasons and in different ways, but the fact is that the mere allegation of Genocide causes pain to many Turks ( and I have met many of them) who either know that it is true or think that it could not have happened and they are being slandered. There are sure also those who know it is true and it doesn't cause pain to them.

Domino, haven't you yet graduated from that sickening idiocy of yours? What did your intelligence tell you when you read the Canadian resolution? Isn't what has been written above somewhat better than the one that caused you jumping up and down like a happy goat on his last journey to a butchery?

Wh00t, Though I understand your point and if you rephrase it I would agree to a large degree, I disagree with what you have said above the way you have said. The existence of Armenians doesn't depend on what Turks recognize or don't but whether Armenians will be able to create a country, which offers a purpose for existence for Armenians - be it in Armenia or Diaspora. At this time, unfortunately, (and for very long time spanning centuries) Armenians of Diaspora, [primarily,] don't exist on such capacity. They exist only on a capacity of an oppressed Turkish minority hurt by the historic “unequal” treatment and the denial of its memory and fully satisfied with the bumper sticker declarations. And I agree with your assessment of the unifying factor. But I don't blame the common people for it. I blame the repugnant Diasporan Armenian establishment and its nomenclature intelligentsia, such as Sasounians, Balakians and other misunderstandings.

Edward, Thank you. I think your referral reinforces an earlier point of mine. I also briefly browsed the ANCA web site resolutions per your link. It seems that some of the resolutions have more acceptable language (Belgian for example), while the language of French resolution, which is still not completely referenced, is one of a mockery. But even that is a subject of exaltation for some Armenians. After, France recognizes us as victims of genocide. What a pity, they didn’t refer to us as “Hungry Armenians.” But that is besides my point, which is not about France or Canada. It is about Armenians (see my previous post) for whom being victims of "the first genocide of the 20th century," being the most "victimized" people and building the "largest genocide museum in Washington" is their most important “accomplishment.” I also wonder why ANCA (and others for that matter), hasn’t provided the full texts of resolutions.

Thanks, Domino. I don't think it is stupid, though. It is just a reaction to the disgusting self-perception and identification of a bunch of stupid people to get them off your back. [For clarity, it is not the Parliaments of foreign countries that I am disgusted with but the people for whom being victims of genocide or whatever is a sort of badge of honor. ]

Thank you Domino. Good timing - I just came in and was about to run out again. Could you post the entire text (Canadian Recognition), please? From what you have posted "That this House acknowledge the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemn this act as a crime against humanity." I cannot get who has committed the act of genocide and who is being condemned. Unless new details emerge, I guess it would be safe to conclude that the Canadian parliament, copying the French Senate, has recognized Armenians as victims of a genocide and has said, "OK, here are a couple of drops of sympathy, now leave us alone with your masochistic harassments."

I have been looking for the actual text of the Canadian Parliament resolution and couldn't find it. I came here hoping for the details, and sure it is nowhere to be found. (By the way, I couldn't find the text (at least in English) of the French Resolution either - even through the leading Armenian Genocide Studies institutions when appealing to them personally.) Over the last decade I have noticed an interesting pattern - the actual texts of resolutions of the Parliaments of the countries "recognizing the Genocide" are never presented along with the ovations and exaltations in the aftermath of "recognition." Is this a policy of dummying the Armenians (in Armenian it might sound as “apushatcum”) by the establishment of the Armenian Diaspora or another "opium" for the Armenian masses? Could someone post the actual text of the resolution, please - in English, if it exists?

Thank you Azat and Harut. Today I have been asked to translate the above text by one of the long-time opposition leaders in Armenia. Unfortunately I am incredibly short-handed at this time and don't know at what pace I can do it, if at all. Is it possible that some members of Hye Forum might want to do something useful? At least if each capable person might translate one or two paragraphs, someone may try to edit the entire translation in one sweep and present a version to those who need it. Perhaps this may be inline with Azat's idea of Hye Forum projects?

Then it was addressed to you. I have no desire to discuss anything in such a trash bin.

As I see, some idiot has deleted my posts again. I would like to send him( or her) my New Years F-word.

Dear anileve, There are a couple of organizations in US. One is called (if I am not mistaken) "Children of Armenia." As to statistics, while I don't have such statistics, in my possession there is a record of about 60 children in Armenia and Karabakgh, who as a result of stepping on landmines or playing with unexploded shells (left behind by the moving around sloppy ...Armenian troops) have lost their limbs and/or sight. Currently efforts are underway to organize medical help for these children - if possible in Armenia, and if it is a too complicated case, to bring them over to US for medical help. The situation is also grave in mental institutes. So, if your non-profit is looking for projects outside Yerevan, I can suggest a couple of them, where much help is needed. Please let me know through PM if you would need more details and can shore up some additional assistance.

Alternative Energy Proves Deadly for Birds Monday, December 22, 2003 The alternative energy movement is ruffling the feathers of animal rights activists. Wind turbines, lauded for being an environmentally friendly energy source, are killing thousands of birds that fly into their propellers in the Altamont Pass (search) just east of Oakland, Calif., where more than 5,000 turbines have helped power the Bay Area for 20 years. Jeff Miller, of the Center for Biological Diversity (search), said the latest research indicates that one to two thousand or more birds are killed each year in the area. Included in the yearly death toll are approximately 60 golden eagles, 300 red-tailed hawks, and 270 burrowing owls. Two environmental groups are trying to stop the renewal of the windmills' permits to prevent more birds from dying in their blades. The Alameda County (search) zoning board renewed a batch of permits in November angering green activists who demanded an environmental impact report and mandatory concessions from the energy industry to make the mills more bird-friendly. "The public is owed an open environmental review of the issue," said Miller. "If the board of supervisors doesn't see it our way, I'm sure we'll look very carefully at some kind of legal action." But the board felt the confrontation with the utilities was the wrong way to go. "What we have is a conflict developing over the best environmental approach and that conflict is moving into a much larger scaled war than is necessary," said Larry Gosselin, of the zoning board. "We need a progressive study." Click here to watch a fair and balanced report by Fox News' Anita Vogel. http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_st...,106438,00.html

Until 1905, Armenians and Azeries (at that time they were called Caucasian Tatars) had no problems with each other whatsoever. It was all started by the Russian Army and political circles then and prior to that ( I am hinting on Russian General-Governor of Caucasus Golitsin as a representative of the Russian political elite, who was subsequently assassinated in an act of revenge by Drastamat Kanayan- Dro. Wasn’t Golitsin who had declared, “we need Armenia without Armenians?) By or around 1905, the revolutionary movement had started in Russia and as the result (or at least one of the reasons), and due to the crumbling Russian economy, the Russian Empire had started to decay. At the same time, the idea of liberation of Armenia from the Russian yoke was put in circulation; a decision was made by Russia, to save their rule in Caucasus, to turn Armenians and Azeries against each other. One documented account of this story is provided in the book called "The Bloody Massacres of Caucasus" ("Krovavaia Reznia na Kovkaze") published in St. Petersburg in 1907 ( I think) by a Russian intellectual (sorry, forgotten his name - more than a decade has passed since I have read it) on how the Russian army initiated the bloodshed. As described, the first instance has happened as follows: The Russian Army, dressed in an outfit characteristic of the Tatar civilians, overnight had stormed an Armenian village (in the province of Gandzak-Giandja-Kirovabad) and massacred the population of an Armenian village. Next morning, Armenians, as an act of revenge had attacked the neighboring Tatar village and responded in kind. The desired scenario was put in motion. In other similar areas, Russians had put cannon on the top of a hill separating Armenians and Azeris, and shelled both towards Armenian and the Azeri villages. Series of these types of events had started a snowball effect. As the result, two peacefully coexisting people were turned against each other. The rest is something better familiar to many. Edit: MosJan

At every stage of history, Russia has betrayed Armenia. It starts from the era of early 18th century and the attempts of Armenians to liberate Armenia (David Bek and others.) Then, Russia has betrayed Armenia in 1828 when occupying Armenia instead of the promised help in liberation, and the replacement of the Iranian yoke with a despicable Russian Yoke. Next, Russia has betrayed Armenians after Berlin and San Steffano conferences. The most outrageous betrayal has taken place during the WWI, which has lead to almost 1.5 million Armenian's slaughter or loses otherwise. In 1920, Russia has betrayed Armenia yet another time - first by finanancing and arming the demolished Turkish Army and sending it on a march towards Armenia, and attacking (Russia) Armenia from her south. In 1921, Russia has betrayed Armenia yet another time by delivering the Armenian territories to Azerbaijan and some to Turkey and promising the execution of that delivery. In the same year, Russia has betrayed not just Armenians but the simplest rules of humanity - the treaty of 1921 was drafted in such a way that the WWI POWs of Russian descent would be exchanged with the Turkish POWs, but the Armenians would be left for further slaughter. In 1923, despite the will of Armenians, Russia delivered Karabagh to Azerbaijan. Since 1921, Russia established the most repressive regime on the territory of USSR. It failed to break the will of Armenian (and Georgian) people only. Pretty much every one gave in to Russification except the mentioned two. Russia consistently lobbied for making Russian language the language of Armenia ( as it had succeeded pretty much everywhere, as I said) but failed. In 1988, Russia provoked the bloodshed between Armenians and Azeries out of a sheer desire to have the two people slaughter each other so that she can easier control Caucasus under the circumstances of Russia's crumbling economy and state structure. In 1989-1990, Russia launched a campaign of depopulation of Armenians in Artsax. Practically the only Armenian populated geography left in Artsax was Stepanakert, which also was on the way of its depopulation. Russia occupied the Shahumian district of Artsax and gave to Azerbaidjan ( it is still so.) It was a direct battle between the Armenian forces under the command of Leonid Azgaldian and the Russian Army there. I will spare the details. Since late 1989, Russia imposed economic and transportation blockade on Armenia. Information blockade was imposed since 1988. The first thing that saved Artsax was the collapse of Soviet Union and the pullout of the Soviet Army - otherwise Karabakah was gone. After the collapse, what saved Artsax and Armenia was one thing only - the might and determination of Armenian soldiers and officers. In 1992 (or 93), Russia betrayed Armenia (and everybody else) yet another time by breaking its promise given to the Armenian government regarding the so-called ruble-zone and socked the entire monetary supply of Armenia out of Armenia - this was the most despicable event in the history of the relationship with Russia. Thus, Russia deliberately impoverished the Armenian population, Armenian Central Bank, and so on. In the last 10 years or so, Russia has betrayed Armenia any time she has had an opportunity to do so. It has sucked not only Armenia's blood out, but has started to suck her bones out, too. Russia has already given enough signs that her policy shifts towards Azerbaijan yet another time in history.

About $2 bln a year.

This issue has a very simple answer: Who Iraq owes substantial foreign debt (by some estimate close to $120 bln - primarily to the countries belonging to the Paris Club) are those who have supplied - Germany, France, Russia and Saudi Arabia.

1. I largely agree worth you. LTP has made some serious mistakes, in my view. He missed the opportunity to put things on a right footing at earlier stages. He will be held as a subject for a judgment by the history. In a way, perhaps he was too liberal and didn’t want to appeal to stiff measures. Perhaps he didn’t even have the power to do so, or figured that if he’d try, the consequences would be much worse. This is a very complicated subject. Which may only indicate that the similar subject related to the First Republic may be only more complicated. 2. I didn’t say that in 1920 Turkey wanted to support Armenia’s independence. In two years a lot had changed. Armenia is far not the only landlocked country on the earth. I am also aware of the Attaturk-Lenin tango. But the opportunities had been squandered before that tango started. The argument I am trying to make is similar to something like this: when someone already has AIDS, there is not much that can be done but to mitigate his/her death, but in most of the cases, something could be done so that the person does not get infected with AIDS.

Noble motto…. But how about something on the merits of the issue?