MJ

Thorny, First of all, as I have reported to this forum, per my information, the explosions where stopped effective June 30th, or July 30th. I will check it again. And I will call Yerevan on Friday, if I have time, or on Monday, otherwise, to start a new process. But you have to give me more definitive information than you have done above, and you have to sound more convinced in what you are alluding. If they have not stopped the explosions, I would go and mobilize all my friends against them. That’s first. But I have to say that while you may have enough reasons to believe your friends/contacts, from the level at which your message is being communicated, I am not quite persuaded in its factuality. As far as the “rule of thumb" is concerned, I think I have been very direct in blaming the Armenian government, first of all. And I have blamed them not only for the potential damage but even for giving material for potential demagoguery, which should‘ve been expected, and which has been exercised by the other side. I have written them about this. But the fact of the matter is that no petition has been directed to the Armenian government from Turkey with respect to the explosions. Turkey has decided to appeal directly to UNESCO. Fine. First, in this context, the government of Armenia has immediately acknowledged the fact of the explosions. There hasn’t been any attempt of a cover up by the Armenian side. Therefore, first I would like to dismiss any insinuations of the kind. Second, the government of Armenia has appealed to the government of Turkey to allow Armenian delegation on a fact-finding mission. It has been denied. I recall The Cat talking or showing an article by who-knows-whom. It didn’t indeed mention anything about the explosions. I recall even recommending him to write to the publication editors to express his dismay. But what is it indicative of - the lack of journalistic integrity, the absence of the verifiable facts from their perspective? What is the point that you are trying to make here? I find that remark of yours about the “lifted verbatim” totally out of the context of the issue being discussed. Vartan Oskanian is the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Armenia. He has no control over the quarries. I don’t even know if the quarries are state controlled or privately held. Any state has beurocratic machine, and frequently it is difficult to push things fast through such machine. The information received from some technical experts has been that the explosions of the magnitude practiced could not have had significant impact on the monuments of Ani. It may be that physically this argument may have been faulty. I don’t know. However, it is a logical and legitimate argument, and without verifiable information, one may be inclined to take it for a fact, if not to consider the potential political demagoguery. The fact of the matter is that no evidence (and I am not trying to demagogue the issue, here) has been presented to the Armenian Government, and to the best of my knowledge to any serious Armenian organization. Nor The Cat has introduced or presented any evidence about the damage of these explosions, regardless of whether he has that evidence or not. I have visited his web site at the time of our previous discussion, and have found only a small paragraph about the “fat-cat” Armenians building mansions using the stone of Ani quarries for the prestige of it. First of all, I find that declaration very unprofessional and out of the context. And it is substandard material for his own site, which otherwise is a very good one. He tells us that he has written about it to “some Armenian architectural organization a year or so ago.” I would like to know what organization, and I would go after them. There is a Union of Architectures of Armenia. It is an influential organization. Is this the one? I doubt it, because then he would’ve remembered the name. Has he appealed to any other Armenian organizations? I am not aware of it. After all, it is not his sole obligation “to save our culture,” right? Instead of documenting and presenting factual evidence, he is talking about the propagation of sonic waves, which from the scientific point is a total absurd. As far as the cracks are concerned, I don’t recall The Cat presenting that argument ever, until the escalation of the argument (and that is by him in a totally schizophrenic manner). No one was arguing the fact of the explosions, nor he had introduced even an opinion earlier that there were cracks, per se, as a result of the explosions. That there may have or may be damage to the structures, it is acceptable. But where has he presented that evidence or alluded the information, again? What has he tried to do, as an informed and involved person, to stop the explosions? Go ballistic when it is not warranted? Finally, the argument here is not about the quarries being harmful. Whether they are harmful or not, there are other methods of extracting stone, which has been exercised even in the past. It is about those who have evidence about the damage presenting it on a non political, professional level, and facilitating solution to the problem, rather than ventilating about it, especially given that the other side has no way to observe it first hand. I typed this material in a hasty manner, but I hope that my point was clear.

quote:Originally posted by khodja: Martin, I have FINALLY suceeded in smoking you out of your cave. Thank you for "coming clean." Perhaps now we can discuss issues without any subtrefuge on your part. I have been "up front" about my associations from the beginning. FYI, I have voted for Republicans many times and have much respect for many of that party, despite being a Democrat. Some of my relatives are prominent in that party. But I am TOTALLY opposed to the "take no prisoners" approach of those who now control the Republicans. You can not unify a nation with that type of approach. A war can unify a country in foreign affairs but as the results in VA and NJ show, it won't work domestically. Bloomberg won in NYC, as Guiliani has won previously. But both would be anathema to the right-wing Republicans. Thoth, I hope that you can understand me better in this particular matter, now.

Dear Twilight Bark, First thank you for the nice words. I have regularly read the postings in Armenian Cafe in the past. Haven't done so for months, now. I have posted there only once - under the name of a "Fly-by-night visitor," which I hope would be indicative for the intrigued reader to learn my intentions, there. I did it just because I couldn't take any further some of the nonsense and misinformation spread by Nastrodamus, though used to agree with many of his perspectives, in general. I have no guess which one of the Armenian Cafe members you are. As far as Ara, is concerned, I think my perspective on Ara's thoughts is clear from above. However I have to say that I have a very positive and respectful view of Ara, even though as mentioned above, disagree with many of his perspectives. I would also like to appeal to you to come up with a shorter online name. Otherwise it is a little bit burdensome to address you each time as "Twilight Bark." How about TB? Hope you understand me correctly.

Thoth, I am going to reply to you in a slightly broad manner, which may be a little unexpected, I guess. 1. About me going “after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved:” Maybe so. I have been in this forum for more than a year, now. Have posted some 3800 or more posts (last time I checked), of which perhaps some 1000-1500 are just materials from other online sites. It leaves me with some 2300-2800 materials of my own, which is perhaps still more intensive than anybody else’ participation. Now add to the top of it that the views I express are not “conventional” in most of the cases for a “conventional” brainwashed Armenian, though these are the most conventional for those who stand or have stood close to the foundations of the Armenian Statehood and its ideals. They clearly invite a lot of resentment from a lot of “accidental Armenians,” I mean the ethnics. Therefore, it is easy to figure out, I think, that I would receive more resentment than anybody else in this forum. I have no problems who would contradict me with qualified arguments. You are saying that some don’t have adequate mental capacity. So what do I do. I have tried to train them. If you think of it, Thorny , The Cat and Ali also train them. Thanks, guys. But some don’t grow. Now, if they don’t have the capacity, let them stay “home.” The Armenian issue is very complex. What our dilettantes do is to inflict more harm to it and tangle it more. I wish the dilettantes where just in this forum. The tragedy is that they are in any single aspect of Armenian life. Now, had I infinite patience, I would just try over and over. But I have gotten tired, and feel some “fatigue,” as I have mentioned before. Here is what I can say: I will exercise the rule of three strikes, i.e. will let it go twice, but the third time, one enters my personal space – will shot without warning – no hostages; 2. Since you have mentioned “Hovhannes.” I also think that he has some good perspectives on some issues. I don’t see much difference in what he says in some aspects of life from what I have advocated for about two decades, now. But there are two major (I will neglect the minor ones) aspects of his behavior that are just repugnant. One is his obsession with “genetics.” His politicization of the issue is not much different from the nazi attitude towards genetics. I understand that his motivations may be quite the opposite, but nevertheless what he preaches is as repugnant as what the Nazis do. (On the level of argumentations, his arguments don’t hold water. But this is a different story). The second aspect of his behavior which is repugnant to me is his substandard ethical norms in terms of characterizing his opponents. For example, if you go and read his first posting in this forum, you can see that he entered the forum as a polarizing figure. He has received very little attention on such capacity, but he keeps going on – he has decided to fight the lost fights of his life here in the forum. The question is with whom? First, with people who are not represented in this forum. For example, he may dig up some dirt from someone’s life and publicize here. He may mention names in this forum and start criticizing them, when these people are not represented here, nor anybody has even heard their names. And since there are no people that he could easily fight with his Partisan primaries limited toolbox, in the best spirit of his mother party he would start defining his opponent within parameters, which would allow him to demonize his opponent. Then he can (he hopes) score a home-run. It was obvious that he is a low level partisan functionary even way before he confessed it. His tactics were very transparent. After all, what school has he gone through? Remember the “Mediscare” campaign of his “Mother Party?” Like this “demon Dole is going to cut the medical and social security benefits of the elderly?” That is the same game he plays here, very frequently. Another example – he may attack his opponent because he is from Georgia or Texas. As if him being in Hawaii qualifies him as a starfish. And it is repugnant. If he had arguments, I would’ve appreciated them. My bottom line is that he is exercising dirty tactics here. Another thing. You ask how is he different from Ara. He is very different from Ara. While I agree with many of facts that Ara gives, I strongly disagree with his perspectives and his understanding of the causes of our problems and his solutions, if any. But have you seen me even argue with Ara? Why do you think? His seniority? I think “Hovhannes” is about the same age as Ara. Ara expresses his views as he sees life. You may agree with him, and you may disagree. But have you ever seen Ara going personal? 3. About “Republicans and Democrats.” Your comment was most irrelevant and misplaced. True, I have been of true Republican views in my life – be it in Armenia or in the US. But I have never been partisan nor have had any respect for partisanship. True, I have never voted for a Democrats. Haven’t seen a single one within my voting space, who I would’ve considered deserving my vote (I select my representatives on the basis of their persona more than anything else). You are saying there are a lot of Republican around you or you have a lot of such friends? Who cares? Does it occur to you that I don’t have a lot of Democrat friends, or I give a damn if one is Republican or Democrat? Or does it occur to you that I don’t have a lot of leftist friends? Is this what you think the disputes are around? If yes, I have to say that your perception of me is due to your own prism through which you look at the world and not due to what or who I represent. 4. About me trying to assert myself in this forum or competing with other. It is not the first time you say this, so it should be that you truly believe in it. I’ll be brief in this respect. If given my age and where I am in my life, I have to come to the Internet or to the Hye Forum to assert myself, I would rather commit suicide for failing so miserable in my life. 5. My constant combat is a retaliation. I have spoken about it before. Am I happy about it? Not at all. But as I have said, if people like you create vacuum, I find myself in a position of constantly combating so that this forum also doesn’t become one of those which you are familiar with. I have to go, now. People are waiting for me for dinner. Would address the rest of the addresses to me later tonight, if my head is clear.

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: MJ - While you may be correct (loudmouths being the cause of less active membership) - I think you should also consider that your own attitude has turned many off. Yes, most of those you chastise probably deserve it in some fashion - though I also see that you go after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved (IMO) - and this turns people off (not just those who you pick on). Sure there are plenty of numbskulls posting garbage that deserve to be thrashed - but there are plenty of others who might not have your mental capacity or who might just think differently then you do who you sometimes jump on. Khodja for instance. It is my opinion that he brings a great perspective (how is he any diferent or more offensive then Ara in your opinion?)and useful info. Sure you can disagree - and sure he has taken some digs at you - but don't you think this continued combating has gone on far too long? You both have plenty to offer the Armenian community - even if you fundementally disagree (politically)...your constant combat is turning folks off and doing the Armenian community a great diservice (IMO). Think about it. [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ] Thoth, I will take your comments under consideration. Additionally, I have been absent from the forum for prolonged times. Has it helped the forum to “flourish?” If yes, I am ready to leave for good. Have only very brief comments at the time: you wouldn't see me attacking anyone personally, unless my personal space is violated. There are a lot of opinions that are alluded in this forum, which I disagree with, but I don't even participate in the discussions. One of the differences between "Ara" and "Hovhanness" is that Ara is trying to address (right or wrong) an issue of a national scale, while "Hovhaannes" is addressing his own issues. Besides, I haven't said that I have disagreed with everything he has said, right? Additionally, violating one's personal space is "Hovhannesses" favorite hobby. You may trace that he has been cordially greeted in this forum by me and has been so treated until he has started almost maniacally tracing me. I would appreciate if you could give me one example when I have jumped on somebody because of his thinking or opinions.

Thorny, Actually this is what I was pursuing regardless of the current online contoversy. I trace elements of misinformation here and inaccurate representation. Since I have no ability to concentrate on the topic, I would like to pose few clarifying questions, and will get back to youas soon as I can: 1. Who and where has presented evidence that the qyuarries in Armenia have caused damage to the monuments of Ani? 2. Who has tried to silence anyone or hide the fact of the ongoing at the time explosions? 3. Do you have any evidence that the explosions have not been stopped effective the date I have repported to the forum based on the information I had received? Perhaps I could come up with a couple of other questions when I can better concentrate on the topic.

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: This is not blackmail for you to accept the damage the quarries inflict (or, if you are not convinced, "might be inflicting") but rather other peoples' rights to know what they are entitled to know. See where I stand? Thorny, on an unrelated note, I would appreciate if you could formulate explicitly what you where trying to convey about the "quarries." It seems to me that the topic keeps coming back, which tells me that in some people's minds the issue has remained unresolved. I am very busy till the weekend, but will get back to you on the subject as soon as I can.

Actually, you are absolutely right, Thorny. There are apparently more than 400 registered members in our forum. Of these only some 15 are active. There is a question why? I think because many don't want to go down to the level of the loudmouths, and unlike some of us, decide that their joint coexistence in a forum with these guys is inexpedient. And they leave or keep silent, which creates vacuum to be filled with the "jabbernutses" and their opposite pole - the "Khodjas" of the world. That is the problem here, as I see it.

Jabbernuts, It seems like the foot-and-mouth desease is infectious. Why don't you closely look at yourself in the mirror and cry loudly. And, then, come back, and I'll try to comfort you saying something like "that's OK, sonny, you will graw up and and become less stupid. Just give some time." "?" do you also want a piece of it?

Can we get back to good old days?

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: the first priority of a country whose territory is occupied is to get it back, and not any commitment to peace, especially with the aggressor. Dear Ali, Could you elaborate further on the subject of the "agressors," so that there is no ambiguity in what we are talking about. Then, perhaps, I would have some comments.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: We all know why Armenians hate turks. Could you explain to us why turks hate Armenians? Because Armenia, which cannot forget its past is the live reminder of Turkey's past, I think. And the modern Turks would like very much to alienate themselves from the past of Turkey, without assuming liabilities for it.

quote:Originally posted by khodja: Martin, I am beginning to wonder if your guidelines for dealing with Mustafa posting should guide us on how to deal with you. Dear "Hovhanness," Please keep wondering. When you find peace with yourself, and learn few elementary things, report in this forum, please. We would very much like to see you succeed.

OK. I am in the airport, and my flight is slightly delaied, so I can have a little bit more fun with "Ara Geghetsik." Dear "Hovhanness," first deal with the failurs of your personal life, next treat yourself from the footh-and-mouth desease, then get out of your barabarian "genetic" mode of mind, then you may be positioned to make qualified judgments about Armenian History, and moreover, its future. [ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Dear "Hovhanness," For now, can give you few quick advices based on my observations: 1. You have to learn thinking, first. That is your first problem. It appears that you consume a lot of information, but you cannot process it. Thinking and analysing skills can be imporved much like anything. It just requires regular exercising, rejection of self-indulgent narcicism, and a desire to go deeper than the surface; 2. You have to be a little critical of your own thinking, and be open minded; 3. You have to rid your venome, and be more loving and accepting; 4. You have to improve your memory skills. After all, if you cannot remember what you tell otehrs, how would you expect to remember what others tell you? 5. Don't be celebist for prolonged periods of time. Go enjoy yourslef and others. Otherwise it affects one's health and dilutes one's concentration. Gotto fly! Wish me happy landing.

Dear "Hovhanness," Given that you come from where you come from, have you been instilled with an embrionic menthality?

quote:Originally posted by khodja: The problem is not with me it is with those of you who insist that to be Armenian one has to think and act exactly as you do. That's a little upside down, "Ara." In reality some of us act and think like Armenians. I hope your state of mind may allow you to see the difference.

quote:Originally posted by khodja: MJ, Nope, not Poghos Poghosyan. Who needs Turks these last few years? Fellow Armenians are killing Armenians. Nope, not Boghos. I wonder how many common Armenian names remain. Hint: I have been told by many that I am very handsome for an Armenian. Even an Assyrian Queen would want to possess me. Guidlines for interaction with "Ara:" /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=4&t=000124

I did. He says, "What the hell is "Boghos" going after the Armenian community, after all that it has done to him?" He says, "Get away from it, go embrace your other identities, leave the Armenian community alone, and have them leave you alone."

Dear "Boghos," I would still like to consult a therapist. It is too much of a responsibility to deal with such fragile minds and souls.

Thorny, "Aslan" is not Armenian word. An a related note, I would like to reference an allegory quoted by a Hye Forum member in the past, according to which "The hunt of a sleeping lion goes to the wolves." As to the last caesura of our common liability, I would consult with some good therapists to get some advice on how to proceed. P.S. But it wouldn't be easy given the seriousness of the case. [ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: Yeah, it is called "dolmadakia" but has no meaning - from a Greek. Actually, they have given me translation of it years ago. But I have forgotten.

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: Just wondering... Does "dolma" mean anything in Armenian ....? No. It doesn't. Any Greek will tell you that it is a genuine Greek food, and will give you the translation for the word from Greek.

"Boghos," I feel sorry for "disturbing" you. I think it was probably inhumane. I promise to exercise extreme caution with you. Please let me know if I can help you.

I was away, and I hoped it might help to heal "Hagop." But I am sorry for him. I wish I could help him. But I think he is a lost cause not worth the time and the effort.