MJ

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Ù³ñïÇ 14-16-ÇÝ ï»ÕÇ áõÝ»ó³í ݳ˳ñ³ñ ì.úëϳÝÛ³ÝÇ å³ßïáÝ³Ï³Ý ³ÛóÁ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛáõÝ: ܳ˳ñ³ñÁ ѳݹÇåáõÙÝ»ñ áõÝ»ó³í ȳïídzÛÇ Ü³Ë³·³Ñ ì³Çñ³ ìÇÏ»-üñ»Ûµ»ñ·³ÛÇ, ê³»ÛÙ³ÛÇ ÷áËݳ˳·³Ñ èÇѳñ¹ë äÇÏëÇ, ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñ ÆݹáõÉÇë ´»ñ½ÇÝßÇ Ñ»ï: êïáñ³·ñí»óÇÝ Ñ³Û-ɳïíÇ³Ï³Ý »ñÏÏáÕ٠ѳٳӳÛݳ·ñ»ñ. 1. ÎáÝí»Ýódz г۳ëï³ÝÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ »Ï³ÙáõïÝ»ñÇ ¨ ·áõÛùÇ ÏñÏݳÏÇ Ñ³ñÏáõÙÁ µ³ó³é»Éáõ ¨ ѳñÏ»ñÇ í׳ñáõÙÇó Ëáõë³÷»ÉÁ ϳÝË»Éáõ Ù³ëÇÝ; 2. ²ñӳݳ·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 2000Ã. ÑáõÝÇëÇ 12-14-ÇÝ ².Ðáí³ÏÇÙÛ³ÝÁ ·ïÝíáõÙ ¿ñ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛáõÝáõÙª ѳí³ï³ñÙ³·ñí»Éáõ Ýå³ï³Ïáí: гݹÇåáõÙÝ»ñÇ ÁÝóóùáõÙ Ýßí»ó, áñ ȳïíÇ³Ý ã³÷³½³Ýó Ñ»ï³ùñùñí³Í ¿ ÏáíϳëÛ³Ý ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³ÝÇ Ñ»ï ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ùµ: γñ¨áñí»É ¾ ³å³·³ ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛáõÝÁ ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý, Ùß³ÏáõóÛÇÝ ¨ ÏñÃ³Ï³Ý áÉáñïÝ»ñáõÙ: ºíñáå³ÛÇ ÊáñÑñ¹ÇÝ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÇ ³Ý¹³Ù³ÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ßñç³Ý³ÏÝ»ñáõÙ 2001Ã. ÑáõÝí³ñÇ 3-4-Á ï»ÕÇ ¿ áõÝ»ó»É ȳïídzÛÇ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ Æ. ´»ñ½ÇÝßÇ, áñå»ë ºÊ-áõ٠ݳ˳·³ÑáÕ »ñÏñÇ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ, ³ÛóÁ г۳ëï³Ý: вڲêî²ÜÆ Ð²Üð²äºîàôÂÚ²Ü ºì ȲîìƲÚÆ Ð²Üð²äºîàôÂÚ²Ü ØÆæºì êîàð²ðì²Ì ä²ÚزܲðºðÆ (вزҲÚܲðºðÆ) ò²ÜÎ 1. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ 1991-1995ÃÃ. ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ¨ Ùß³ÏáõóÛÇÝ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý í»ñ³µ»ñÛ³É: 2. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐÐ ³íïáÙáµÇɳÛÇÝ ïñ³ÝëåáñïÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈÐ ³íïáÙáµÇɳÛÇÝ ïñ³ÝëåáñïÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ 1991-1995ÃÃ. ïñ³ÝëåáñïÇ µÝ³·³í³éáõ٠ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 3. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ 1992 Ã. ³ñï³¹ñ³ÝùÇ Ù³ï³Ï³ñ³ñÙ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 4. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ 1992-1995ÃÃ. ³é¨ïñ³ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ëϽµáõÝùÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³µ»ñÛ³É: 5. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ г۳ëï³ÝÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ÜÜ ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ÜÜ ÙÇç¨ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 6. ²ñӳݳ·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ ¹Çí³Ý³·Çï³Ï³Ý ѳñ³µ»ñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñ ѳëï³ï»Éáõ Ù³ëÇÝ: 7. ²ñӳݳ·ñáõÃÛáõÝ ÐÐ ²Ü ¨ ÈÐ ²Ü ÙÇç¨ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 8. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐÐ Ï»ÝïñáÝ³Ï³Ý µ³ÝÏÇ ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ µ³ÝÏÇ ÙÇç¨ ÃÕóÏó³ÛÇÝ Ñ³ßÇíÝ»ñáí ѳßí³ñÏÝ»ñÇ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåÙ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 9. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ ³é¨ïñ³ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ëϽµáõÝùÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³µ»ñÛ³É: 10. гٳӳÛݳ·Çñ ÐÐ Ï»ÝïñáÝ³Ï³Ý µ³ÝÏÇ ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ µ³ÝÏÇ ÙÇç¨ Ñ³ßí³ñÏÝ»ñÇ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåÙ³Ý Ù³ëÇÝ: 11. ²ñӳݳ·ñáõÃÛáõÝ ÐÐ ¨ ÈÐ ²Ü-»ñÇ ÙÇç¨ ËáñÑñ¹³ïíáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ Ù³ëÇÝ: (ëïáñ³·ñí»É ¿ 15.03.2000Ã.) 12. ÎáÝí»Ýódz ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ÈРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç¨ »Ï³ÙáõïÝ»ñÇ ¨ ·áõÛùÇ ÏñÏݳÏÇ Ñ³ñÏáõÙÁ µ³ó³é»Éáõ ¨ ѳñÏ»ñÇ í׳ñáõÙÇó Ëáõë³÷»ÉÁ ϳÝË»Éáõ Ù³ëÇÝ ¨ ¹ñ³Ý ÏÇó ²ñӳݳ·ñáõÃÛáõÝ: (ëïáñ³·ñí»É 15.03.2000Ã., í³í»ñ³óí»É ¿ 07.02.2001Ã.) ÆܸàôÈÆê ´ºð¼ÆÜÞ È²îìƲÚÆ Ð²Üð²äºîàôÂÚ²Ü ²ðî²øÆÜ àð̺ðÆ Ü²Ê²ð²ð Ï»Ýë³·ñ³Ï³Ý ïíÛ³ÉÝ»ñ ÌÝí»É ¿ 1957Ã. ¹»Ïï»Ùµ»ñÇ 4-ÇÝ È³ïídzÛÇ Ø³¹áݳ ù³Õ³ùáõÙ: ÎñÃáõÃÛáõÝ 1981-1984 ëáíáñ»É ¿ ȳïídzÛÇ Ñ³Ù³Éë³ñ³ÝáõÙ 1976-1981 ȳïídzÛÇ Ñ³Ù³Éë³ñ³ÝÇ å³ïÙáõÃÛ³Ý áõ ÷ÇÉÇëá÷³ÛáõÃÛ³Ý ý³ÏáõÉï»ïÇ áõë³ÝáÕ ²ß˳ï³Ýù³ÛÇÝ ·áñÍáõÝ»áõÃÛáõÝ 1999 Ã. ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñ 1998-1999 ÃÃ. 7-ñ¹ ê»ÛÙÇ ÷áËݳ˳·³Ñ, ȳïídzÛÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇçϳé³í³ñ³Ï³Ý ÙÇáõÃÛ³Ý Ý³Ë³·³Ñ 1997-1998 ÃÃ. 6-ñ¹ ê»ÛÙÇ ù³ñïáõÕ³ñ, ÐÛáõëÇë³ïɳÝïÛ³Ý ³ë³ÙµÉ»³Ûáõ٠ȳïídzÛÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛ³Ý Ý³Ë³·³Ñ 1995-1997 ÃÃ.6- ñ¹ ê»ÛÙÇ ²ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ ÏáÙÇï»Ç ݳ˳·³Ñ, ȳïídzÛÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇçϳé³í³ñ³Ï³Ý ѳÝÓݳÅáÕáíÇ ³Ý¹³Ù 1993-1995 ÃÃ. 5-ñ¹ ê»ÛÙÇ §È³ïídzÛÇ áõÕǦ ËáñÑñ¹³ñ³Ý³Ï³Ý ýñ³ÏódzÛÇ ÷áËݳ˳·³Ñ, ܲîú-Ç Ñ³ÝÓݳÅáÕáíÇ È³ïídzÛÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛ³Ý ³Ý¹³Ù 1992-1993 ÃÃ. ȳïídzÛÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛ³Ý »ñ³·áõÛÝ ÊáñÑñ¹Ç ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ ËáñÑñ¹Ç ݳ˳·³Ñ, 1991-1993 ÃÃ. ȳïídzÛÇ »ñ³·áõÛÝ ËáñÑñ¹Ç ³Ý¹³Ù, ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ ËáñÑñ¹Ç ÷áËݳ˳·³Ñ 1984-1990 ÃÃ. èÇ·³Ûáõ٠ȳïídzÛÇ Ñ³Ù³Éë³ñ³ÝÇ ¹³ë³Ëáë, ÇÝãå»ë ݳ¨ ȳïídzÛÇ ·ÛáõÕ³ïÝï»ëáõÃÛ³Ý ³Ï³¹»ÙdzÛÇ ¹³ë³Ëáë: ì»ñç:

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: dear mj, i agree with you there, but the thing is their plight does little to enhance the image of karabagh armenians. i shall not get into a lenghty discussion on that, because i don't know all that much about it, and i have found in our previous discussions that we are in general agreement over certain broad outlines concerning it, but even if you ask a non-turk or a non-armenian (or a non-ex-ottoman, i must add) the karabagh armenians appear as aggressors and the azeri civilians (not the govt) as victims. this is despite the fact that the azeri govt has one of the lowest levels of respectability among the world's governments. cheers, Dear Ali, Since you have indicated a lack of desire to go into lengthy deliberations, I would also be short: with the exception of some isolated cases there is no one outside Azerbaijan or Turkey who would consider Karabagh Armenians to be the aggressors. Any knowledgeable person on the subject would recognize such argument being at least ridiculous. It is not the fault of the Karabagh Armenians that they have emerged victorious in a war, which was forced to them by Azerbaijan. Karabagh Armenians have courageously defended their land, they have demonstrated superior dedication and military abilities, they have fought hard, they have made significant sacrifices, and they have won. Which part of it qualifies as aggression? To summarize, we are at a stage in our history that we would prefer to be victorious and be qualified as “aggressors” by those for whom our victories are not in agreement with their political doctrines, rather than to be slaughtered again, and have others shed a couple of “crocodile tears” for us. Additionally, the Karabagh Armenian agenda has nothing to do with the Azeri refugees - it is for the independence of Karabagh. [ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: dear mj, 2. karabagh: yes, you are right in the 20% issue. it's the whole territory including karabagh. i had made that mistake in the past, too. the thing is i do not know all that much about karabagh (i am not that interested in it per se) and do not know what the latest developments are. if the karabagh armenians returned the land outside karabagh that they occupied and if the 1 million internally displaced azeris could return home, the situation would largely be settled, i think. azerbaijan has no interest in having an armenian enclave inside itself. these two peoples should go their separate ways. Dear Ali, I think that the Azeri refugees should be allowed to return to the places of their residence to the extent that they themselves desire to do so. However, the primary party preventing their return is their own government, which not only doesn’t give a damn about the well being of its own citizens, but also finds the presence of refugees to be advantageous for political gains. The problem is that the problem of refugees cannot be solved as a stand-alone problem. It is a part of a wider complex of problems- not easy ones, admittedly.

Dear Ali, While I am not supportive of pointless statements denigrating the Turks, and I think that such generalized statements regardless who they concern, are more indicative of the ignorance of the alleging party (equally concerning the-Cat-who- needs-to-be-Belled), neither being supportive of the bragging about “Armenian being the source of civilization,” for the sake of the record, however, I would like to mention that if there has been a scientific arena where Armenian scientists have lead the world science for decades, it has been Astrophysics and Astronomy. I would give you just three major names, and you can search Yahoo, for example: Ambartsumian/Hambartsumian the late President of the Academy of Sciences of Armenia), Markarian and Gurzadian – both currently active (I may have some spelling/transliteration errors). Additionally, almost every other junior scientist of the Burakan Observatory or the Garni Institute or some other Armenian corresponding Institutions has either a star or some other celestial body in his name or his wife's name, or his daughters' name (a little bit a rhetoric statement just to give you the big picture). Such set of discoveries has been most casual in Armenian scientific world. To summarize, the reputation of the Armenian Astrophysicists/Astronomists in the International Scientific Arena is on unparalleled height. As to Armenians occupying 20% of Azerbaijan outside Karabagh for the sake of the corridor, I would also like to inform you that you are misinformed. First of all, it is less than 20%, additionally it also includes Karabagh. However, the occupation of these territories is not done or maintained by Armenia, but by the Karabagh military forces (though Armenia has given some support). And the purpose of the occupation has not been the corridor, but the creation of a security zone or buffer zone, to prevent the bombardment of the Armenian residential districts of Karabagh, which was one of the favorite hobbies of Azerbaijani military and paramilitary prior to the “occupation.” Additionally, Karabagh has expressed readiness many times to pull out of these territories as soon as the security of the Karabagh population is guaranteed and the problem has found political resolution.

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ØÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛ³Ý »ñÏñáñ¹ ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ µÇÉÇëÇáõÙ ÐáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 24-Çó 26-Á µÇÉÇëÇáõÙª ØÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛ³Ý (ØØÎ) ݳ˳ӻéÝáõÃÛ³Ùµ ï»ÕÇ ¿ áõÝ»ó»É ÊÙµ³ÛÇÝ ³é³ç³ñÏÇ / Cluster/ »ñÏñáñ¹ ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ, áñÇÝ Ù³ëݳÏóáõÙ ¿ÇÝ Ð³ñ³í³ÛÇÝ ÎáíϳëÇ »ñ»ù å»ïáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñǪ ÁݹáõÝáÕ »ñÏñÝ»ñ Þí»Ûó³ñdzÛÇ, Üǹ»ñɳݹݻñÇ, »ñÙ³ÝdzÛÇ, ¸³ÝdzÛÇ, ´»É·Ç³ÛÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ, ØÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛ³Ý å³ßïáÝ۳ݻñÁ, ÇÝãå»ë ݳ¨ ºñ¨³ÝÇ, ´³ùíÇ, µÇÉÇëÇÇ ØØÎ-Ç ·ñ³ë»ÝÛ³ÏÝ»ñÇ Õ»Ï³í³ñÝ»ñÁ: гݹÇåÙ³Ý Ýå³ï³ÏÝ»ñÝ ¿ÇÝ. - ÷áË³Ý³Ï»É ï»Õ»Ï³ïíáõÃÛáõÝ, ϳåí³Í ³ÝûñÇÝ³Ï³Ý ÙÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ ¹ñë¨áñáõÙÝ»ñÇ Ñ»ï, - ùÝݳñÏ»É ÙÇ·ñ³óÇáÝ ·áñÍÁÝóóÝ»ñÇ Ï³ñ·³íáñÙ³Ý áÉáñïáõ٠гñ³í³ÛÇÝ ÎáíϳëÇ ¨ ²ñ¨ÙïÛ³Ý ºíñáå³ÛÇ »ñÏñÝ»ñÇ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ·áñÍÁÝÏ»ñáõÃÛ³Ý Ñ»é³ÝϳñÝ»ñÁ, - ùÝݳñÏ»É ³ÝûñÇÝ³Ï³Ý ÙÇ·ñ³ÝïÝ»ñÇ ¨ Ù»ñÅáõÙ ëï³ó³Í ³å³ëï³Ý ѳÛóáÕÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³¹³ñÓÇ áõ é»ÇÝï»·ñ³ódzÛÇ Ñݳñ³íáñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÝ áõ ï³ñµ»ñ³ÏÝ»ñÁ: г۳ëï³ÝÇ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛ³Ý ³Ý¹³ÙÝ»ñÁ (³·ÇÏ º·³ÝÛ³Ý, ÐРϳé³í³ñáõÃÛ³ÝÝ ³éÁÝûñ ÙÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ ¨ ÷³Ëëï³Ï³ÝÝ»ñÇ í³ñãáõÃÛ³Ý å»ï, ²ñ·³Ù ä³åáÛ³Ý, ÝáõÛÝ í³ñãáõÃÛ³Ý ËáñÑñ¹³Ï³Ý, ²ßáï øáã³ñÛ³Ý, ²Ü ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ í³ñãáõÃÛ³Ý ËáñÑñ¹³Ï³Ý, Ù³ñ¹áõ Çñ³íáõÝùÝ»ñÇ ¨ ÑáõÙ³ÝÇï³ñ ѳñó»ñÇ µ³ÅÝÇ í³ñÇã, ²ñÙ»Ý º·³ÝÛ³Ý, ²Ü ÑÛáõå³ïáë³Ï³Ý í³ñãáõÃÛ³Ý ³ñïáݳ·ñ»ñÇ µ³ÅÝÇ µ³ñÇã, سñó ²Ûí³½Û³Ý, ²Ü Ù³ñ¹áõ Çñ³íáõÝùÝ»ñÇ ¨ ÑáõÙ³ÝÇï³ñ ѳñó»ñÇ µ³ÅÝÇ 1-ÇÝ ù³ñïáõÕ³ñ) Çñ»Ýó »ÉáõÛÃÝ»ñáõÙ Ý»ñϳ۳óñ»óÇÝ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÇ Ñëï³Ï Ùáï»óáõÙÝ»ñÁ ùÝݳñÏíáÕ Ñ³ñó»ñÇ ³éÝãáõÃÛ³Ùµ, ÑÇÙÝ³Ï³Ý ß»ßï³¹ñáõÙÁ ¹Ý»Éáí Ù»ñ ѳÛñ»Ý³ÏÇóÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³¹³ñÓÇ Ï³Ù³íáñ ëϽµáõÝùÇ, Ýñ³Ýó ѳٳñ Ñݳñ³íáñ ³ß˳ï³Ýù³ÛÇÝ ï»Õ»ñÇ ëï»ÕÍÙ³Ý, é»ÇÝï»·ñ³ódzÛÇ ·áñÍÁÝóóÇ ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ¨ ëáóÇ³É³Ï³Ý Ñ³ñÃáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ, ÙÇ·ñ³ÝïÝ»ñÇ Çñ³íáõÝùÝ»ñÇ å³ßïå³ÝáõÃÛ³Ý, áõÝ»óí³ÍùÇ µéݳ·ñ³íÙ³Ý ³ÝÁݹáõÝ»ÉÇáõÃÛ³Ý, Çñ³í³Ï³Ý ¹³ßïáõÙ ²ñ¨ÙïÛ³Ý ºíñáå³ÛÇ »ñÏñÝ»ñÇ Ñ»ï ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ¨ ·áñÍÁÝÏ»ñáõÃÛ³Ý Ñݳñ³íáñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ Ñ»é³ÝϳñÝ»ñÇ ÑÇÙݳËݹÇñÝ»ñÇ íñ³: гݹÇåÙ³Ý ¹ñ³Ï³Ý å³Ñ»ñÇó ¿ñ ²ñ¨ÙïÛ³Ý »ñÏñÝ»ñÇ ÏáÕÙÇó í»ñóí³Í ÏáÝÏñ»ï å³ñï³íáñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ, Ù³ëݳíáñ³å»ë, ´»É·Ç³Ý, »ñÙ³ÝdzÝ, Üǹ»ñɳݹݻñÝ áõ Þí»Ûó³ñÇ³Ý å³ïñ³ëï³Ï³ÙáõÃÛáõÝ Ñ³ÛïÝ»óÇÝ ýÇݳÝë³Ï³Ý ³ç³ÏóáõÃÛáõÝ ïñ³Ù³¹ñ»É ½³Ý³½³Ý Íñ³·ñ»ñÇ Ñ³Ù³ñ: øÝݳñÏí»ó ݳ¨ ½µ³Õí³ÍáõÃÛ³Ý ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ ÑÇÙݳ¹ñ³ÙÇ ëï»ÕÍÙ³Ý ·³Õ³÷³ñÁ: ØØÎ-Á Ý»ñϳ۳óñ»ó »ñÏáõ ݳ˳·ÇÍ, ϳåí³Í é»ÇÝï»·ñ³ódzÛÇ ¨ ï»Õ»ÏáõÃÛ³Ý ï³ñ³ÍÙ³Ý Ñ»ï: ì»ñç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ ²Ûëûñ ³é³íáïÛ³Ý áõÕÕ³ñÏí³Íª §ØÇ·ñ³ódzÛÇ Ï³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛ³Ý »ñÏñáñ¹ ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ µÇÉÇëÇáõÙ¦ Ëáñ³·ñáí ÝÛáõÃÁ ËݹñáõÙ »Ýù ÷á˳ñÇÝ»É Ýáñª ×ßïí³Í ï³ñµ»ñ³Ïáí: 30.10.2001 Ã. 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Dear Ali, I just want to tell you that I was too tired to dedicate myself over the weekend to the writing of the material I had promised. And now, I am about out the door, again. Hopefully I can do it some other time.

Welcome to the forum, Arpa. You send good vibes. Look forward to your participation.

Announcing workshop #4 ** on Post-terrorism: Bio-Psychosocial & Spiritual Impact Room 518 12:30: Welcome, introduction Dr. Anie Kalayjian, Fordham University & Geraldine Sealey, ABCnews.com 1-2 pm: Concurrent workshops #1 a. Trauma and spirituality Wendy Hurwitz, MD, NYC 513 b. Nurturing the caregiver Robert Kandarjian, DC, Victory Circle 514 c. Resources available Representative from FEMA 519 2:15-3:15 pm: Concurrent workshops #2 d. Caring for children/families Eshleman Lark, PhD, Pennsylvania 513 e. Caring for rescue workers Kathleen Kowalski, PhD, NIOSH, PA 514 f. Treatment modalities: Dr. Anie Kalayjian, Fordham University 519 EMDR, Art therapy, etc. 3:30-4:30 pm: Roundtable discussion with all the presenters. 518 ______________________________________________________________________ 3 November 2001, Saturday 12:30 pm - 4:30 pm at Fordham University, 113 West 60 Street (Corner of 9th or Columbus Ave.), Room 518 ______________________________________________________________________ All professionals and students are welcome without fee. Beverages are served. _____________________________________________________________________ ** Following the 9-11 disaster, this is #4 in a series of workshops for mental health professionals, organized by ISTSS (the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies - NY chapter), with a consortium of concerned groups: Global Society for Nursing and Health, SPSSI-NY, and hosted by Fordham Psychology Association, Psi Chi, Fordham Institute. The consortium has a listserve (below). For further information, contact Dr. Kalayjian at (212) 636-6346, or istssny@aol.com. ISTSS_NY-disasteroutreach-owner@yahoogroups.com

Thanks, Harut.

Ali, I had understood you properly. I think the reaction your posting would receive would be indicative of the existing interest. One can notice that there are more threads to which no one has replied than those with replies. I personally have very little interest in the non-political history of Armenia or the Ottoman Empire, i.e. my interest is limited to the political history. This has nothing to do with the material that you were thinking of posting. It is just where my interests are. If I have to spend my time on history, I would much rather do it on the history of the evolution of the theological thought.

²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð³Õáñ¹³·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ù³ÙáõÉÇ Ñ³Ù³ñ 22 ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ, 2001Ã. 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²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ 26.10.01Ã. Æ ·ÇïáõÃÛáõÝ ¼ÈØ-Ý»ñÇ Ý»ñϳ۳óáõóÇãÝ»ñÇ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÇ Ð³Ýñ³å»ïáõÃÛáõÝ Å³Ù³ÝáÕ å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñ (ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ í»ñç-ÝáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ ëÏǽµ) ÜáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ 3-6-Á »éûñÛ³ ³Ûóáí г۳ëï³Ý ÏÅ³Ù³Ý»Ý Ø»Í ´ñÇï³ÝdzÛÇ ¹áõùë ¨ ¹ùëáõÑÇ ÉáëûñÝ»ñÁ: ÜáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ 5-7-Á ݳ˳ï»ëíáõÙ ¿ ȳïídzÛÇ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ ÆݹáõÉÇë ´»ñ½ÇßÇ »ñÏûñÛ³ ³ÛóÁ г۳ëï³Ý: ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ ì³ñ¹³Ý úëϳÝÛ³ÝÇ ³Ûó»ñ ÜáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ 29-ÇÝ ³ñï·áñÍݳ˳ñ³ñ ì³ñ¹³Ý úëϳÝÛ³ÝÁ ÏÙ»ÏÝÇ ÈÛáõùë»Ùµáõñ·ª Ù³ëݳÏó»Éáõ ÝáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ 29-30-ÇÝ Ï³Û³Ý³ÉÇù ÐÐ-ºØ ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý ËáñÑñ¹Ç ѳݹÇåÙ³ÝÁ: ÜáÛ»Ùµ»ñÇ 7-8-ÇÝ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ ì. úëϳÝÛ³ÝÁ êïñ³ëµáõñ·áõÙ ÏÙ³ëݳÏóÇ ºíñáå³ÛÇ ËáñÑñ¹Ç ³ñï·áñÍݳ˳ñ³Ý»ñÇ ÏáÙÇï»Ç Ñ»ñÃ³Ï³Ý ÝÇëïÇÝ: ì»ñç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð³Õáñ¹³·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ù³ÙáõÉÇ Ñ³Ù³ñ 26ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ, 2001Ã. ²ÝóÉdzÛáõÙ ³í³ñïí»ó êÌîÐ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñÝ»ñÇ ËáñÑñ¹Ç 5-ñ¹ ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ ÐáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 26-ÇÝ ²ÝóÉdzÛáõ٠ϳ۳ó»É ¿ ê¨ÍáíÛ³Ý ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý /êÌîÐ/ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñÝ»ñÇ ÊáñÑñ¹Ç Ñ»ñÃ³Ï³Ý ÑÇÝ·»ñáñ¹ ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ: гÛÏ³Ï³Ý å³ïíÇñ³ÏáõÃÛáõÝÁ ·É˳íáñáõÙ ¿ñ ÐÐ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñÇ ï»Õ³Ï³É ²ñÙ»Ý Ø³ñïÇñáëÛ³ÝÁ: гݹÇåÙ³Ý ÁÝóóùáõÙ ùÝݳñÏí»É »Ý ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³Ý³ÛÇÝ Ñ³Ù³·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý Ñ»ï³·³ ½³ñ·³óÙ³Ý ÑÇÙÝ³Ï³Ý ËݹÇñÝ»ñÁ, Ý»ñ¹ñáõÙ³ÛÇÝ ¹³ßïÇ µ³ñ»É³íÙ³Ý áõÕÇÝ»ñÁ, ѳٳï»Õ Çñ³Ï³Ý³óí»ÉÇù ÙÇ ß³ñù Íñ³·ñ»ñ ¨ ϳ½Ù³Ï»ñåã³Ï³Ý µÝáõÛÃÇ Ñ³ñó»ñ: ²Ûë ѳݹÇåáõÙÁ ³Ù÷á÷áõÙ ¿ñ êÌîÐ-áõÙ ÂáõñùdzÛÇ í»ó³ÙëÛ³ ݳ˳·³ÑáõÃÛáõÝÁ: ²Ûë ѳݹÇåٳٵ ݳ˳·³ÑáÕ »ñÏñÇ å³ñï³Ï³ÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÝ ³Ýó³Ý àõÏñ³ÇݳÛÇÝ, ÇëÏ 2002 Ã. Ù³ÛÇë-ÝáÛ»Ùµ»ñ ³ÙÇëÝ»ñÇÝ êÌîРݳ˳·³ÑáõÃÛáõÝÁ Ïëï³ÝÓÝÇ Ð³Û³ëï³ÝÁ: ì»ñç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð²Ôàð¸²ðàôÂÚàôÜ Ø²ØàôÈÆ Ð²Ø²ð 26.10.2001 Ã. Æëå³ÝdzÛáõÙ ¨ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛáõÙ ÐÐ ³ñï³Ï³ñ· ¨ Édz½áñ ¹»ëå³Ý ¾¹áõ³ñ¹ Êáç³Û³ÝÇ ¨ Æëå³ÝdzÛÇ Ã³·áõÑÇ êáýdzÛÇ Ñ³Ý¹ÇåáõÙÁ ÐáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 17-ÇÝ Æëå³ÝÇëÛáõÙ ÐÐ ¹»ëå³Ý ¾¹í³ñ¹ Êáç³Û³ÝÁ ѳݹÇå»É ¿ Æëå³ÝÇ³Ç Ã³·áõÑÇ êáýdzÛÇ Ñ»ï: ÐÐ ¹»ëå³ÝÁ Æëå³ÝdzÛÇ Ã³·áõÑáõÝ ¿ ÷á˳Ýó»É ²Ù»Ý³ÛÝ Ð³Ûáó ϳÃáÕÇÏáë ³ñ»·ÇÝ II-Ç ¨ ÐÐ ³é³çÇÝ ïÇÏÇÝ ´»É³ øáã³ñÛ³ÝÇ Ññ³í»ñÝ»ñÁª áñáÝóáõ٠ó·áõÑÇÝ ¨ ó·³íáñ³Ï³Ý ÁÝï³ÝÇùÁ Ññ³íÇñíáõÙ »Ý ³Ûó»É»É г۳ëï³Ýª Çñ»Ýó ѳñÙ³ñ ųٳݳÏ: гݹÇåÙ³Ý ÁÝóóùáõÙ ùÝݳñÏí»É »Ý Ùß³ÏáõóÛÇÝ µÝ³·³í³éáõ٠ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³ÝÁ í»ñ³µ»ñáÕ Ñ³ñó»ñ: ³·áõÑÇÝ Ý³¨ Çñ ѳٳӳÛÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ ¿ ïí»É ÐÐ ³é³çÇÝ ïÇÏÝáç Ñ»ï ѳٳï»Õ Ñáí³Ý³íáñ»É г۳ëï³Ýáõ٠ϳ½Ù³Ïñ»åí»ÉÇù Ù»Ï ÙÇç³½·³ÛÇÝ ÙñóáõÛÃ: ì » ñ ç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð²Ôàð¸²ðàôÂÚàôÜ Ø²ØàôÈÆ Ð²Ø²ð 26.10.2002 Ã. Æëå³ÝdzÛáõÙ ¨ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛáõÙ ÐÐ ³ñï³Ï³ñ· ¨ Édz½áñ ¹»ëå³Ý ¾¹áõ³ñ¹ Êáç³Û³ÝÇ Ñ³Ý¹ÇåáõÙÁ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛáõÙ ÐáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 24-ÇÝ Æëå³ÝÇëÛáõÙ ¨ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛáõÙ ÐÐ ¹»ëå³Ý ¾¹í³ñ¹ Êáç³Û³ÝÁ ѳݹÇå»É ¿ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛÇ ÷áËí³ñã³å»ï ¨ ² ݳ˳ñ³ñ ijÛÙ» ³Ù³ÛÇ Ñ»ï: гݹÇåÙ³Ý ÁÝóóùáõÙ ùÝݳñÏí»É »Ý äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛÇ Ñ»ï »ñÏÏáÕ٠ѳñ³µ»ñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ ½³ñ·³óÙ³Ý Ñݳñ³íáñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ, ÇÝãå»ë ݳ¨ º²ÐÎ äáñïáõ·³ÉdzÛÇ Ý³Ë³·³ÑáõÃÛ³Ý ßñç³ÝáõÙ ÈÔ Ñ³ñóÇ Ï³ñ·³íáñÙ³Ý ßáõñç ѳٳ·áñͳÏóáõÃÛ³Ý áõÕÇÝ»ñÁ: ì » ñ ç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð³Õáñ¹³·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ù³ÙáõÉÇ Ñ³Ù³ñ 27 ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ, 2001Ã. ²ñï·áñÍݳ˳ñ³ñ úëϳÝÛ³ÝÝ ÁݹáõÝ»ó º²ÐÎ ÊáñÑñ¹³ñ³Ý³Ï³Ý í»Ñ³ÅáÕáíÇ Ý³Ë³·³ÑÇÝ ²Ûëûñ, ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 27-ÇÝ ÐÐ ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñ ì³ñ¹³Ý úëϳÝÛ³ÝÝ ÁݹáõÝ»ó ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³Ý³ÛÇÝ ³ÛóÇ ßñç³Ý³ÏÝ»ñáõ٠г۳ëï³ÝáõÙ ·ïÝíáÕ º²ÐÎ ÊáñÑñ¹³ñ³Ý³Ï³Ý í»Ñ³ÅáÕáíÇ Ý³Ë³·³Ñ ²¹ñÇ³Ý ê¨»ñÇÝÇÝ: ²ÛóÁ Ýå³ï³Ï áõÝÇ Í³ÝáóݳÉáõ ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³Ý³ÛÇÝ ËݹÇñÝ»ñÇÝ ¨ Éë»Éáõ ÏáÕÙ»ñÇ Ùáï»óáõÙÝ»ñÁ Ñݳñ³íáñ ½³ñ·³óáõÙÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³µ»ñÛ³É: гݹÇåÙ³Ý Å³Ù³Ý³Ï ùÝݳñÏí»óÇÝ ë»åï»Ùµ»ñÇ 11-Ç ³Ñ³µ»ÏãáõÃÛáõÝÇó Ñ»ïá Ç Ñ³Ûï »Ï³Í Ýáñ ËݹÇñÝ»ñÇ Ñ³Ý¹»å º²ÐÎ Êì Ùáï»óáõÙÝ»ñÁ ¨ Íñ³·ñ»ñÁ: ÎáÕÙ»ñÝ ³Ý¹ñ³¹³ñÓ³Ý Ý³¨ ³Û¹ ËݹÇñÝ»ñǪ ÏáíϳëÛ³Ý ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³ÝÇ íñ³ áõÝ»ó³Í ¨ Ñݳñ³íáñ ³½¹»óáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇÝ: ܳ˳ñ³ñ úëϳÝÛ³ÝÁ Ý»ñϳ۳óñ»ó ݳ¨ È»éݳÛÇÝ Ô³ñ³µ³ÕÇ Ñ³Ï³Ù³ñïáõÃÛ³Ý Ï³ñ·³íáñÙ³Ý ßáõñç Ý»ñϳ ½³ñ·³óáõÙÝ»ñÁ ¨ г۳ëï³ÝÇ Ùï³Ñá·áõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÝ ³Û¹ ³éÝãáõÃÛ³Ùµ: ì»ñç: ²Ü вê²ð²Î²ÚÜàôÂÚ²Ü Ðºî в𲴺ðàôÂÚàôÜܺðÆ ì²ðâàôÂÚàôÜ Ð³Õáñ¹³·ñáõÃÛáõÝ Ù³ÙáõÉÇ Ñ³Ù³ñ 27 ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ, 2001Ã. ²ñï·áñÍݳ˳ñ³ñ úëϳÝÛ³ÝÝ ÁݹáõÝ»ó º²ÐÎ ÊáñÑñ¹³ñ³Ý³Ï³Ý í»Ñ³ÅáÕáíÇ Ý³Ë³·³ÑÇÝ ²Ûëûñ, ÑáÏï»Ùµ»ñÇ 27-ÇÝ ÐÐ ³ñï³ùÇÝ ·áñÍ»ñÇ Ý³Ë³ñ³ñ ì³ñ¹³Ý úëϳÝÛ³ÝÝ ÁݹáõÝ»ó ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³Ý³ÛÇÝ ³ÛóÇ ßñç³Ý³ÏÝ»ñáõ٠г۳ëï³ÝáõÙ ·ïÝíáÕ º²ÐÎ ÊáñÑñ¹³ñ³Ý³Ï³Ý í»Ñ³ÅáÕáíÇ Ý³Ë³·³Ñ ²¹ñÇ³Ý ê¨»ñÇÝÇÝ: ²ÛóÁ Ýå³ï³Ï áõÝÇ Í³ÝáóݳÉáõ ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³Ý³ÛÇÝ ËݹÇñÝ»ñÇÝ ¨ Éë»Éáõ ÏáÕÙ»ñÇ Ùáï»óáõÙÝ»ñÁ Ñݳñ³íáñ ½³ñ·³óáõÙÝ»ñÇ í»ñ³µ»ñÛ³É: гݹÇåÙ³Ý Å³Ù³Ý³Ï ùÝݳñÏí»óÇÝ ë»åï»Ùµ»ñÇ 11-Ç ³Ñ³µ»ÏãáõÃÛáõÝÇó Ñ»ïá Ç Ñ³Ûï »Ï³Í Ýáñ ËݹÇñÝ»ñÇ Ñ³Ý¹»å º²ÐÎ Êì Ùáï»óáõÙÝ»ñÁ ¨ Íñ³·ñ»ñÁ: ÎáÕÙ»ñÝ ³Ý¹ñ³¹³ñÓ³Ý Ý³¨ ³Û¹ ËݹÇñÝ»ñǪ ÏáíϳëÛ³Ý ï³ñ³Í³ßñç³ÝÇ íñ³ áõÝ»ó³Í ¨ Ñݳñ³íáñ ³½¹»óáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇÝ: ܳ˳ñ³ñ úëϳÝÛ³ÝÁ Ý»ñϳ۳óñ»ó ݳ¨ È»éݳÛÇÝ Ô³ñ³µ³ÕÇ Ñ³Ï³Ù³ñïáõÃÛ³Ý Ï³ñ·³íáñÙ³Ý ßáõñç Ý»ñϳ ½³ñ·³óáõÙÝ»ñÁ ¨ г۳ëï³ÝÇ Ùï³Ñá·áõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÝ ³Û¹ ³éÝãáõÃÛ³Ùµ: ì»ñç:

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: - satget (I believe this is Turkish, a mean way of saying "to die", ie. "to croak". Satgets is an Armenian word.

Alpha, First, thanks for appending me to the list of the classics. Will reply in the same spirit. 1. I think at the time when the 907 was brought together it might've been a positive political statement, however it has outlived itself; - MJ Why has it outlived itself? The blockade of Armenia from East and West is still continuing? The point of Prop. 907 was lifting the blockade. –Alpha Because it has never had any impact on the Azerbaijani policy, whatsoever, and it is very likely that it would have absolutely no impact on it in the future. 2. From the pragmatic and practical perspective it has been an empty declaration - it has never been enforced, and there have been enough loopholes in the resolution for the executive branch to go around it with a great easy, which has always been done;-MJ It’s true that there are enough loopholes in Prop 907 for executive branch to go through it, but it’s better to have something in place even with many loopholes than nothing at all. If it’s just an empty statement than why is government so anxious to get rid of it. Empty statements do not get as much attention as Prop. 907 is getting. Obviously there must be something more to it. -Alpha But what does that “something” give us? US cannot give direct help to Azerbaijan through the Government of Azerbaijan? Who cares? 3. From the moral and humanitarian perspective it has been a totally bankrupt resolution in view of the sufferings of the Azeri refugees living in tents, giving birth in rail carriages, growing children in inhumane conditions, etc, at least since the establishment of the ceasefire; -MJ The suffering of Azeri refugees has nothing to do with Prop. 907. It’s a direct result of ineptness of Azeri government. They make their people suffer for propaganda reasons. While Azeri refugees are living in tents and Azeri government is not letting them settle in other areas of the country, Armenia has helped Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan in assisting them in finding housing, although most of them chose to immigrate to Krasnodar and Stavropol. –Alpha I have not said that the Proposition 907 is the reason of the sufferings of the Azeri refugees. However, given their sufferings, helping them to cope with their problems would’ve been suitable action from the American side, since analogous assistance is given to the Armenian side. However, I agree with your explanations on the attitude of the Azerbaijani Government towards its own people. Nothing new about it. The lives of their people are worth nothing to them. This was apparent even during the military operations. Much like the Iraqi Government also agreeing to starve its own nation for whatever political statements of militaristic ambitions. 4. From the perspective of the future Armeno-Azeri relations it promises only more hate continuing from generations to generations, which is nothing for Armenia or Karabagh to be happy about; -MJ I don’t understand how does Prop. 907 solve the issue of historic hatred. Only economic development will solve this issue. Unless the blockade is lifted there can be no economic development of Caucasus. So in other words Prop. 907 is a mechanism to force Azeri government to lift the blockade and stop hindering the economic development of Caucasus. –Alpha What do you think is crossing through the minds of the Azeri refugees living in tents and rail carriages? Who do they blame? What do they teach to their children born in these tents and carriages? If their living conditions were improved, wouldn’t they have harbored less hatred towards Armenians? 5. From the PR perspective it has been a total disaster for Armenians; -MJ How? How is Prop. 907 a disaster. In contrary it’s a victory for Armenian lobby and amongst senators who are undecided on this issue can show how powerful is Armenian lobby, thus making them think twice before voting. –MJ Many US Congressmen and Senators express deep disgust at some activities of the Armenian Lobby, which comes every year to get assistance for Armenia and Karabagh, but tends to block similar assistance for Azeris. Guess what the reaction of these lawmakers is when voting for the resolution on the Armenian Genocide. 6. From the political perspective it has been totally meaningless measure;-MJ Will you please elaborate on this. I don’t understand how can something be meaningless if it gets so much attention. Meaningless matters are ignored by State Department, not actively lobbied. –Alpha. That’s my point. It is a measure for the sake of the show and “demonstration of mussel,” and consolidation of the Armenian Diaspora in the US. It has had no policy implications, and has had no impact on the lifting of the blockade. No one is even so naïve as to expect it. It is just a small nuisance for the Azeri Government. 9. From the point of view of the American politics it has been a very harmful thing for it to appear as an even-handed moderator, and has limited the American influence on Azerbaijan around he negotiations table (not that the role of Russia and France has not been diminished for other reasons). –MJ American influence on Azerbaijan is enormous. It just made Azeris become more pro American than Texans are (I hope you understand the metaphor). It’s not like they have another choice. Their support comes from Turkey, and Turkey is financed by US. Since the collapse of Turkish economy the relations of Azerbaijan and Russia have improved. Why? Because Turkey became a less reliable partner. –Alpha I don’t know about it being enormous but, sure, America has levers of pressure on Azerbaijan (as well as on Armenia) though these levers are not well exercised, in my view. However, around the negotiations table, any time the US makes pressure on Azerbaijan, Azeris claim (may be just for maneuvering purposes, but nevertheless) that the US is not an impartial moderator. This game is being especially well played and coordinated between the Azeri opposition and the Government – sort of good cap-bad cap game. P.S. Thanks for the posting the text of the relevant parts of the Resolution.

Pat Buchanan on History & Philosophy Armenia: History shows national interest trumps atrocities Q: In Buchanan’s book, he praised the way the British were mistreating the Armenians, in what he called the Armenian holocaust. If it’s America first, why did he prefer Britain to Armenia as far as people being mistreated goes? A: I did not say that was a good thing at all. What I said was that if you go back in all these massacres and genocides of peoples, you will find that despite the fact that statesmen say this is awful and it can’t happen again, it does every single time and there has never been a real intervention to stop it. The British issue was with the Bulgarian massacres by the Turks. Disraeli said we ought to stay with the Turks even though they did it, and Gladstone said we ought to throw the Turks out of Europe even though they’re our allies. What I’m saying was this shows you when national interest come into collision, even with horrific human rights atrocities, every time virtually, national interest wins. I don’t say it’s morally right. I was writing history. Source: National Public Radio interview, “Talk of the Nation” May 30, 2000 http://www.issues2000.org/Pat_Buchanan_For...eign_Policy.htm

CHAPTER I Introductory remarks. Assertion of Dutch Independence — Tolerant Spirit of the early Reformers —The Armenian schism —The Belgic Confession, the Hiedelberg Catechism and the Canons of the Synod of Dort adopted as the Standard of Faith — Persecution of the Remonstrants — Difference between the Dutch Reformers and the English Puritans. The combat between Freedom and Absolutism which had been waged for eighty years between the provinces of Holland and the mighty empire of Charles V was brought to a close on the 9th of April, 1609. The idea of throwing off the Spanish yoke was not entertained by the States when they took up arms against the oppressions and the extortions of Alva. In a petition to Philip II they said : " We contend for nothing less than freedom of conscience, our wives and children, our lives and fortunes. We do not desire to be discharged from our allegiance to Your Majesty, but only that our consciences may be preserved free before the Lord our God, that we may be permitted to hear His holy Word, and walk in His commandments, so that we may be able to give an account of our souls to the Supreme judge at the last day." (Magazine of the Reformed Church Vol.1 p.354) Indeed such a painful want of self-reliance, so complete an absence of faith in their own capacity for self-government is there exhibited throughout the negotiations that immediately preceded and followed the Twelve years' Truce, that " it was, as it were, in their own despite and unwittingly that the United Provinces became a republic at all." (Motley Vol iv, p. 502 3.) But the work of national independance was at last completed, or rather circumstances which none had foreseen had forced them along until the nation stood up in the conscious manhood of a people who had wrung from the hereditary tyrant of their race every concession they had claimed. The mighty power which had overshadowed the half of Europe at last condescended to treat the revolted provinces on terms of equality, and in the ratification then concluded, His Most Christian Majesty became himself the suppliant, and asked the States General to deal kindly with their Catholic subjects. ''That request was not answered with the axe and faggot; with the avenging sword of mercenary legions. On the contrary it was, destined to be granted. The world had gained something in forty-three years. It had at least begun to learn that the hangman is not the most appropriate teacher of religion.'' (Motley p. 502) But though destined to be granted, and that at no distant date, it had yet to be preluded by scenes of religious strife in which Presbyterian bigotry turned the weapons of persecution equally against Papist and Armenian :—and this in the face of a solemn decree of the States assembled in 1672 at Dordrecht under the presidency of William the Silent, to the effect that " not only all religions ought to be tolerated but that all restraint in matters of religion was as detestable as the inquisition itself' (Broadhead p. 100) But William who was the first statesman of Europe to advocate the principle of religious liberty had fallen under the hand of the assassin; and neither Prince Maurice, the son and successor of William in the Military leadership, nor Olden Barneveldt who had risen to considerable power was imbued with the same tolerant spirit. Hardly had the country emerged from its political struggle than it became involved in religious strife. Prince Maurice favored the Calvanistic party while Olden Barneveldt was suspected of "the Armenian leprosy," and thus the spirit of persecution which had lain dormant during the more recent years of the struggle for national independence was once more roused into activity. The Commonwealth which William had pictured to himself as rising upon a solid foundation of political liberty and religious freedom had not yet been realized ; and instead of Protestant and Papist, Gomarite and Armenian living together in harmony, they presented the spectacle of a people who had just emancipated themselves from the thralldom of the Spanish Inquisition invoking the aid of the hangman's gibbet, and the headsman's axe, to restore the impossible concord of religious uniformity. The land which under the benign sway of William had sheltered Romanist and Calvinist alike, which had extended the Aegis of its protection equally to Huguenot and Covenanter; and to which belongs the imperishable honor of having been the first among modern nations to guarantee the rights of conscience in matters of religion, was becoming the arena of religious contention between two rival theological factions. Calvinist and Armenian persecuted in turn as each sect gained political ascendancy. It may not be out of place here to give a brief outline of (he religious feud which distracted the Low Countries between the years 1609 and 1618. For nearly forty years before, while the Reformed Church was allowed to exist on sufferance, there was no written confession of faith nor ultimate ecclesiastical authority to appeal to on disputed questions of ritual and doctrine. The Dutch Reformed Church had grown into a national institution, much in the same way that Motley describes the Republic had grown—it took its color from Calvin but never acknowledged Calvin as its master. " But even then there was a standard of doctrine no less real and well-known than if it had been written; and after the Belgic Confession and Heidelberg Catechism appeared, they were adopted as standards by the earliest Synods, and had been held as such almost forty years before Arminius taught his peculiar views." (Demarest p. 47 et seq.) At the death of Junius in the year 1602 Jacobus Armenius, who was a pastor at Amsterdam, was called upon to fill the vacant chair of theology in the University of Leyden. The consistory opposed his nomination, but at a conference held with Gomarus, one of the professors, and in presence of the deputies and the curators of the university, he professed his adherence to the received standards and promised he would teach nothing opposed to the doctrines of the Church. In a year or two, however, he began to put forth the same views for which he had been admonished. He was invited to a friendly conference at which to discuss the points in dispute. He declined the invitation but promised conformity with the received doctrines as explained and laid down by Gomarus. But the controversy had gone too far to be stayed. It spread from the students of the university to the ministers, and from them to the people. The Classis of Dordrecht brought the matter before the Synod of South Holland, but their deputies were put off by the curators of the university who were the friends of Arminus. The States General were next appealed to, and though they gave authority for calling a national Synod, with this permission was coupled the condition that the synod so called should revise the Confession of Faith and the Catechism. Whether the protection which the States General extended to the schism sprang from a spirit of toleration or had its origin in the personal antagonism of Olden Barneveldt to prince Maurice it is needless to enquire, but the consequence was to provoke the interference of the States in purely ecclesiastical questions, and nonconforming ministers suspended by the Classis were ordered to be restored. Armenius died in 1609 but there were not wanting followers to take up his views. These adopted a remonstrance and were afterwards known as Remonstrants. To this remonstrance the opposite party replied in a paper from which they were called Contra-remonstrants. Separations and disturbances now began to take place in various parts of the country. Coercive force was employed in almost every town, and riots broke out in many places. This led to the passing of what is known as the " Severe Edict" by the States. Prince Maurice who had taken no ostensible part in the controversy, at least down till 1617, was now called upon by Olden Barneveldt to interpose. "Maurice thereupon referred to his oath by which lie had sworn to protect the Reformed religion, and declared that he would protect it; that a national Synod ought to be called ; and that the Contra-remonstrants should be allowed to worship separately without losing the privileges of the national Church, lie himself worshipped with the separatists at the Hague and urged the Stales to grant the petition for the calling of a Synod without delay." (Demarest p. 53) This Synod met at length at Dordrecht on the 13th of November, 1618, and its sessions extended over six months. Thirty five ministers and twenty elders from the churches of the United Provinces, five professors of theology from the Schools of Leyden, Franecker, Groningen, Harderwyck and Middleburg attended. There were also twenty seven delegates present from the foreign Protestant Churches of Great Britain, the Palatinate, Hesse, Switzerland, Geneva, Bremen, East Friesland, and Nassau. Eighteen political commissioners deputed by the States General were also present to watch the proceedings. The learning and integrity of the members of this Synod cannot be questioned. Among them we find the names of Polyander, Luberti, Waleus, Faukelius, Damman, Hommius, Trigland, Voetius, Scultetus. At the head of the Enghah deputation was George Carkon, Bishop of Llandaff. Connected with him were Joseph Hall Dean of Worcester, Samuel Ward Archdeacon of Taunton, John Davenant professor of theology at Cambridge. Walter Balcancall represented the Church of Scotland. Johannes Bogerman, pastor of the Church of Leeuwarden, was chosen president. The proceedings were conducted in Latin. The members were sworn to refer all questions of doctrine to the word of God for decision. Episcopius, the leader of the remonstrant party, attempted to give the Synod a polemical character, but wearied out by the evasion and pertinacity of the recalcitrant Remonstrants,the Synod at last expelled them and proceeded to examine their doctrines as contained in their writings. The verdict was that they were neither according to the Scriptures nor the Confession of Faith. The Heidelberg Catechism and the Confession of Faith were reviewed and confirmed, and it was resolved that henceforth all candidates for the ministry and all Schoolmasters should subscribe them. Measures were also taken fora new translation of the Scriptures directly from the original tongues, and the work was entrusted to a number of learned divines, who in the course of eighteen years produced the present excellent version. "The rules of Church government which had been adopted by previous Synods were also reviewed and reduced to a more complete system. Judgment was passed on the cited ministers, and they were pronounced innovators and disturbers of the Church and nation ; obstinate and rebellious ; leaders of faction; teachers of false doctrine and workers of schism ; and deprived of their offices, both ecclesiastical and academic, till such time as they had satisfied the churches with evident signs of repentance.'' (Davies vol. 2 p. 509.) The States confirmed the judgment and thus ended this Synod memorable in the annals of Protestant Christianity, as the great Council at which was settled and defined the doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. The history and acts of this Synod have a universal interest for all who claim to belong to the Reformed Faith, because not only were the doctrinal standards of the church settled by it, but from that day to this the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Canons of the Synod of Dort have been the accepted standards of doctrine of the Reformed Church wherever it was planted, whether in North America, at the Cape, in the Dutch possessions of the Malayan Archipelago, or even in Ceylon. The union of Church and State having been thus formally established, the civil power was invited to put down the Remonstrants. Their assemblies were forbidden, their ministers banished, and rewards offered for the apprehension of their preachers, while they were refused such rights as were granted to other sects, and even to infidels. The Republic which had become the refuge for the oppressed of all nations, where Jews and Gentiles, Catholics and Calvanists and Anabaptists prayed after their own manner to the same God, refused that privilege to the seceding Remonstrants, and it was not until Frederick Henry became Stadtholder in 1625 that the banished preachers were recalled, and the civil and political lights of which they had been deprived restored to them. But the national instinct was opposed to the sentiment of persecution. The Dutch Burghers who had fought the battle of religious freedom, recoiled with a natural shudder from the prospect of themselves becoming imitators of the Spanish Inquisition. The honesty, simplicity, love of thrift, and practical sagacity of the Dutch character, found little to interest it in the religious feud bequeathed by the imperious Gomarus and the amiable Arminius. The nation was rising to a sense of its own political importance, and had already begun to realize the advantages of commercial enterprise. "A nation of peddlers," they had successfully fought the greatest empire of Christendom, and during that severe and protracted struggle they had learnt that it was the florins and guilders of their trade that furnished them with the sinews of war. The mechanical, mercantile, commercial, and manufacturing pursuits had more practical attractions for them than abstruse theological disquisitions, and so long as they were allowed to follow their respective callings, the bulk of the nation cared not for the disputations of learned Doctors. In this there is a vast difference between the fanaticism of the Puritans of England and the religious zeal of the Reformers of Holland. The former looked upon every thing else—political liberty not excepted—as subordinate and secondary to religious ascendancy, and they burnt and hanged Papists with the most ineffable complacency. The Dutch Reformers on the other hand cared very little how people who differed from them in religious views worshipped God, and it was only when political revolution came disguised under the cloak of religion that the spirit of persecution was evoked. At any rate it cannot be denied that the Dutch Reformed Church was not essentially a persecuting Church. "There had been monasteries, convents, ecclesiastical establishments of all kinds in the country, before the great war between Holland and the Inquisition. These had as a matter of course been confiscated as the strife went on. The buildings, farms, and funds, once the property of the Church, had not however been seized upon, as in other Protestant lands, by rapacious monarchs and distributed among great nobles according to royal caprice. Monarchs might give the revenue of a suppressed convent to a cook as reward for a successful pudding, the surface ot Britain and the continent might be covered with abbeys and monasteries now converted into lordly palaces—passing thus from the dead hand of the Church into the idle and unproductive palm of the noble , but the ancient ecclesiastical establishments of the free Netherlands were changed into eleemosynary institutions, admirably organized and administered with wisdom and economy, where orphans of the poor, widows of those slain in the battles for freedom by land and sea, and the aged and the infirm, who had deserved well of the republic in the days of their strength, were educated or cherished at the expense of the public, thus endowed from the spoils of the Church."(Motley Vol. iv p. 517) The spirit of toleration into which the political and religious views of William the Silent had molded the nation, was beginning to permeate the masses, and though it took nearly another century before perfect religious equality was recognized as a cardinal element in every free constitution, it is no little satisfaction to know that the great truth first conceived by William the Father of his country, although in his time condemned throughout Europe as the rankest political heresy, was in 1692, proclaimed in England, though then ineffectually, by his great-grandson, William III, who laid the foundation of the present free constitution of Great Britain ; and that now wherever the British flag waves, whether over the snows of Northern America or under the fervid sun of the Tropics, Protestant and Papist, Hindu and Mohamedan, are perfectly free to worship God in his own way. http://www.iaf.nl/Users/janpoel/lapidarium...pidarium_1.html

Why don't you stay away from the things that require higher capacity to process.

Ali, To the best of my understanding, you are a member with equal rights with the Armenian members of this forum, and I don't see why would you need confirmation from the Armenian members as to post a material which you thing is appropriate.

Gold - vosky Silver - Ardzat Tin - Aruir (I am not sure about this one) Copper - Bghindz Iron - Yergat

None of these words sound Armenian to me.

The word "bızdık" stands for small in one of Armenian dialects. As to chaman, I doubt it is an Armenian word.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: as for this war of words between you and mj, i am upset for both of you because both of you came out as intelligent, informed people of high caliber and integrity across you earlier postings in the forum, and i feel sad when i see two such people get into such a quarrel over certain differences which seem a bit inconsequential to me (i may be wrong, because i do not know the settings you both come from as well as you do), and somehow i also got mixed into this as some of mj's replies to you concerned your answers to some of my postings. i have never observed mj use such language as he used against you even at some turkish fascists who came here to insult the armenians, persuade them there was no genocide, and even threaten them with a future genocide, in turkish, which had to be translated by a turkish-speaking armenian from turkey (remember raven, mj?). in fact, mj had issued formal warnings to contributors who "crossed the line" and even banned some from the forum who used a language not very dissimilar to his current usage against you. so i see mj kind of having lost his calm and i feel sad about it. also both of you are grown-up men who are probably considerably older than me (i am 34), so i think (if i may say so, no offence intended) that you could do better. i do not want to delve into this much further, because i fear that it is turning into something personal and if it is, then 1) it is none of my business, and 2) it is not in my area of interest. but i feel sad about seeing two otherwise brilliant people engage in such mud-slinging that is really below their class. again, no offence intended to either one of you. cheers, Ali, While some of your observations may be correct, I have not lost my calm - I am just disgusted. Besides, the more than 3500 postings of mine in this forum perhaps are having some side effect in form of a fatigue - I am tired and bored. As to Hagop (since his name is not Bedros), if I knew how could one help him with his schizophrenia - I would truly have been ready to do so. But he is a lost cause. As to issuing warnings and banning the uncontrollable, I would still urge the Moderators of the forum to vigorously exercise it, even if it may imply me receiving further warnings and being banned.

Dear Hagop, I would like to invite the NORA representatives to this forum. Could you give me a contact info, please?

It appears that other than suffering from the foot-and-mouth disease, you are also a liar. I have discussed something with you just one time - pointing to a lie of yours, which you rushed to support by another lie. I have never spoken in another forum other than this one instance. However, I have read the postings of the other forum regularly, never participating, and not specifically for the purpose of reading you - just for one time move a little further from your narcissism, please. And guess what have I thought of you, when reading your postings... I have thought "What a pathology."