MJ

Arine, I am much older and not interested in dating you. Why don't you grow up a little bit and, then, come back here, let's say in few years. Maybe then we can have a different conversation. Meanwhile, please do some more learning and bring the noise down, learn some norms/rules of human cohabitation and stop posting garbage in the Hye Forum - this forum is past that level. If you need, I could give you references to a couple of other (non-)Armenian forums where your materials would be more appreciated. Also, unless you really have something to say, just read and try to learn. The Armenian proverb says, "The silence is gold." If you have questions, feel free to ask, however. Someone will hopefully answer you. That way you would do great service to yourself, also would spare the time of the members of this forum, because most of them are really busy people, and since they don't know in advance what's the content of your materials, they waist their time reading them (though, by now I think every one should now that your materials should be skipped). I don't mean to be mean - just trying to put things in perspective, and hope the point will be taken by you, too.

On the other hand, when one reads a little bit carefully what the Turkish hard-liners say, one case extract a great deal of confession. Is that literally what they say, Ali, or did you just paraphrase their thesis? Thanks.

Dear Ali, The primary chunk of the Armenian people fighting against the Ottoman Empire have been Armenians of Eastern Armenia (geographically speaking), some symbolic numbers for other countries like Iran, France, USA, etc, and definitely a symbolic number of Western Armenians. Additionally, the division between the Western and Eastern Armenians at the time were so significant that you could safely assume that you where dealing with two totally different nations – not that I don’t get this feeling in our days. The core of the Army of the Republic of Armenia has consisted from the volunteers who had fought against the Ottoman Empire in the ranks of the Russian Army. On the tope of them, you can add those peasants, etc, of the Republic of Armenia, which had been drafted to the Army due to the mandatory military service laws. All this brings us to 60,000 at its apogee. As far as the diminished numbers of Armenian male population are concerned, those who had fought the Ottoman Empire would’ve not been subjected to Genocide, but rather would’ve been killed in action, at best. Therefore, to claim that the 60,000 number is resulted from the massacres is not persuasive, if not illogical. As far as your observation #3 is correct, as far as the conflict of the interests between Armenia and Russia are concerned, however I miss the point as far as the Armenian Army and its “shrunk” numbers are concerned. As far as the funding was concerned, I don’t think that it was a major problem at the time. Armenia had become a recipient of significant foreign aid from the USA, UK, etc. Additionally, not only Armenia had not had militia but the regular Army was eliminating the small group of militia, or let’s call it “fedayees,” who had become nothing else but bandits, and the official policy of the Republic was “kill’em.” In any case, they have not outnumbered some several thousand heads. This was a very quick response. Cannot be more detailed at the time. Regarding the quotation of the Turkish hard-liners. “…the Armenian leaders made a cold-blooded calculation that if their peoples would suffer atrocities at the hands of the ottoman Turks…” There is a great deal of truth in this allegation. It is not made out of the thin air. Indeed such theory has existed in certain circles of Armenian Revolutionaries – primary of pagan belief. It is documented in the Armenian literature. It was something that “our land requires sacrifices, we have to nourish it with our blood,” and additionally, there has been another motto in some other revolutionary circles, “ the worse it is the better it is.” These “ideologists have existed, and I am aware of their existence up to our days. But I think the Turkish hard-liners are taking it out of its context and proportions. I strongly believe that the Armenian Revolutionaries have to be judged on their merits in the court of Armenian History. However, they should be deemed responsible for what they have done, and the Turkish authorities have to be deemed responsible for what they have done to this nation. As far as the rest of the nonsense related to the retributions and the land claims is concerned, I think we have discussed these issues multiple time in the Hye Forum, and perhaps we should ask TB to sell us another bridge – this time the Golden Bridge, but in such a way that when we but it for $999.99, we also get the Brooklyn Bridge free, and we get tax breaks due to the compensatory character of the sale. Sorry, gotto run.

Here is some info on the subject: http://nyc@alwan.org/

Jabbaernats Dandy, I think you would do a great service to yourself if you just get out of your mutated state of mind. Arine, How come I don't remember you, if you where there and knew him?

Dear Ali, Just one late comment... At its apogee, which was in 1919, the Regular Army of the Republic of Armenia has numbered about 60,000 heads. How do you see a number 205,000 being anywhere close to being realistic? Probably one can bring also few other arguments to negate the insinuation... but why?

quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan: Many non-Armenian historians mention the Armenian-Byzantine relations. What is important is that they consider Armnia to be a part of the Empire. Moreover, there were Byzantine Kings of Armenian origin. Did some of them do something for Armenia?Is that possible that they were even worse? If you think Tigran was not a strong King (and I agree) then Armenia has never had its own empire. More than 3000 years of history and not a single empire. I guess we can only be a part of an empire or a strong country. A peacful nation cannot have a strong blossoming country under its own rulers. I do hope we have the future but the long Armenian history tells me another thing. When an Armenian gets some political power (for example, Byzantine Kings of Armorigin) he becomes loyal TO HIS COUNTRY. Stupid Armenian loyalty. Of coarse Armenian has been part of the Byzantine empire for centuries. Additionally, many non-Armenian historians consider also the early Armenian culture as part of the Byzantine culture, and this is why in many modern museums you would see Armenian exhibits demonstrated in the Byzantine section. Some of the Armenian Emperors of Byzantine persecuted Armenians at the time very severely. Why does Armenia need an Empire? And sure it basically Armenia has never had an Empire. I don't think that our only realm of existence is as a part of another "Empire," though realistically speaking this is our history, and I think we never have managed in history to be a Sovereign nation, but rather have for few episodes attempted to become one. I also find your last statement on "LOYALTY" somewhat not bearing the necessary content. If not for anything else, at least because it would have been more meaningful if you would have also articulated on the subject of what happens when an Armenian 'gets power' in his own country.

quote:Originally posted by MosJan:by MJ ->"I have only one functional arm for the time being" Martin jan inch asem join the clab dzaxna te aj@ ??? yes arden 4rd shabatna et orii em . es shabat verchin virahatutyuna yev verch mnuma apaqinvem... Movses Aj@

There are more errors in it than truths. Could you list them? Perharps your also one of those 'Armenians' that is 'essentially' an American. Currently known as Jabbernuts, where are you Accelerating? Slow down ... so that not to 'essentially' come accross as a moron...

quote:Originally posted by Arine:It was Stalin who divided ARmenia into 3 parts ok not Azeris. Read history. Azeri politicians are no better than ARmenian ones. They both suck. If Azeri politicians were better than ARmenian politicans, then you wouldn't meet any Azeris in Moscow. Read the news. I have known Stalin personally, but don't remember him doing such a bad thing... Tsk, tsk, tsk...How could I miss that...

Dear Arpa, Thank you for the spirit of your reply. I agree with many of the points you make there. Speaking of our “later day fiascoes” and our confusion between “the saddle and the donkey,” I think it is another manifestation of our national mass psychosis – not the fact of the terror itself, since one can find enough confused- romantics or idiots in any nation. The problem is in its subsequent assessment and in taking pride in it by the others. I also wanted to make a remark on the subject of all the nations that “took our land, and we didn’t take theirs.” I think you might’ve forgotten to develop on the subject of the Byzantine. In my strong opinion Byzantine has been the most vicious enemy of Armenia, and we owe Byzantine for the distraction of Armenia for more than a millennium to come. Arabs, Persians and, especially the Turks, have been sort of an inertia put in motion by the Byzantine Empire and the nation representing it, if any. I think it is important to recognize it (btw, I find remarkable one of the best hidden pages of the Armenian history, which is the rebellion of our compatriots in the 9th century and the establishment of de-facto independence for about a century in both sides of the Byzantine-Arab demarcation line). This subject may evolve quite extensively and invite a lot of discussions – perhaps in another thread outside the Language forum. However, it is hard for me to do it now, since I am recovering after an extensive (right) shoulder surgery (after breaking it badly while playing basketball - so much fun, right?) and I am not supposed to do typing, for another 2-3 weeks, I think. Btw, I consider Tigran the great not to be Great after all, and to the contrary, to be very short-sighted, week and adventurer king – nothing to be so much proud of.

I am having a hard time to understand why has this material created dismay...It seems to be relatively accurate, despite the few "errors," and certainly one of the most truthful "stories" they have come up with in the last 50 years... Is there anything that I don't get?

From what I know, things don't look so good for Karabagh... Within the structures of UN, it has been put back in the Azerbaijani map...

However... while the linguistic insights are interesting, they are neither reflective nor explanatory in the context of Armenian terror subject to discussions. Except in the case of the killing of General-Governor Golitsin by Drastamat Kanaian in early 20th century, the Armenian Terror has always been an instrument of not "breaking the terror," and never has been of "cutting the terror." It has been a questionable instrument of achieving political results - however justifiable the goals might have been. This is especially true in the context of ASALA and its competitor established under the auspices of ARF. Both organizations are notorious for being financed and led by foreign sources, especially sources hostile in their essence to the Armenian interests. Both organizations have attached the term "Liberation of Armenia" to their name, but it has been an illusion for the "week-minded" It is obvious that neither their handwriting nor the publicity they have generated could not in any possible way serve the purpose of the liberation of Armenia. Additionally, the very insinuation of "Liberation of Armenia" in their ideology has been fictitious because to this day they have not clarified which Armenia were they planning to liberate, how and from whom. Additionally, as interpreted currently, the activities of these organizations have been rather directed at raising "public awareness" of Armenian Genocide issues, and at bringing the "Armenian Cause to the forefront." I would contemplate again that these organizations have had nothing to do with the "Liberation of Armenia" and as far as "the raising of public awareness was concerned" they could have just pored gasoline on themselves in the Time Square, per se, and had put themselves into the flames in the name of the "Liberation of Armenia." In such case, I would have found them more courageous. BTW, I am not aware of them executing actions against the Turkish military bases, per se, or let's say against the Turkish Generals, which I would have considered as a perhaps brave manifestation of an ongoing war. All their actions have been directed at some Diplomats - civilians. Go figure how does one liberate a country this way... Additionally, I would have at least expected from them, in the tradition of Tehlerian, that after their action, they would have stood on the spot waiting for the police to arrive, and would have used the court for "raising public awareness." However, we have witnessed at least petitions to the heads of the governments to cut their sentences short, since "they have been unjustifiably framed." Of the two organizations referenced above, especially the second one has been established so that ARF doesn’t lose its "aura" of the "Liberator of Armenia" in the eyes of certain circles of Diaspora, which itself attests to the fact that it has been done out of dirty internal considerations. The term "fedayee," or better to say the category of "fedayee," deserves additional attention, I believe. First of all, for the real solders-liberators of Armenia, the term "fedayee" has never been a dignified title. I know many solders of Armenian Army who even prior to the establishment of the Armenian Statehood have negated their belonging to the "fedayess," and have always presented themselves as Solders of Liberation/Defense of Armenia. The mere term "fedayee" has generated in their minds/hearts full rejection and feeling of disgust, and they have felt insulted being called "fedayees." And indeed, when you look at the real face of "fedayess," these have been the problem of our first Republic and have played a major part in its destruction, and these "brave fedayees" are the source of problems of our contemporary Republic, by establishing reign of terror and lawlessness, there. Most importantly, if a nation cannot grow to the level of cultivating its Army, but will in the 21-st Century cultivate this repugnant category of leftovers of other countries unsuccessful military campaigns, that nation will only demonstrate that it is not ready for Sovereignty and it cannot sustain Sovereignty. Moreover, it would not deserve Sovereignty. However, I am sure that there are adequate numbers of clear minds to introduce, in the course of time, clarity in the list of Armenian priorities and to define what the Armenian Cause means in the first place. Finally, another point of mine is that even if we would erroneously presume that the Armenian Terror has served the aspiration of the Liberation of Armenia, we have to keep in mind that the way you liberate your country, that's the type of State you establish. I doubt that this is what we want. Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I have only one functional arm for the time being, and it is difficult to be more elaborate and “politically more correct.” [ June 16, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

I know that.

Winston, I think you have missed my point - my fault though. And my comments have nothing to do with Elly, who I just keep admiring more and more. I have been questioning the motivations of many of our "Genocide warriors" and their judgment. One of the points that I have attempted to make, perhaps unsuccessfully, was that the issue of Armenian/any Genocide has no place in a city agenda - it is an issue of the Foreign Affairs Department and the Parliament of a country. That's where the "city sewer system and trash collection" comments comes, which is sort of to point at the level of issues that normally a city government deals with - I think we have had some discussions on this subject in this forum in the past in the context of the "Glendalian efforts." I also think that this "Genocide business" the way it is being done has become sort of tasteless and meaningless endeavor and threatens the very fabric of the Armenian Nation. As far as keeping the “memory alive” is concerned, I doubt that a memory that needs to be kept alive is worth the effort. Whatever needs to be kept alive stays alive on its own. I am sort of in physical condition which doesn’t allow me typing extensive texts, so sorry that I cannot elaborate more. The NY event that you were referring to is not supposed to be substitute for the Genocide recognition efforts. Also, I am only very peripherally involved in it. But from all I can gather, it hasn’t had much success. BTW, I was not trying to be cynical...

Very imressed ... one more time...

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:What an iron logic... Very impressive...Please state where my logic is flawed, before throwing sarcastic comments in my direction....What logic...?

Maybe... But, first, there is no hyperlink allowing verification of the material, second it is not clear who has translated it. And I can assure you that there have been attempts of presenting falsified and doctored materials by some Armenian individuals. As far as the timing of the alleged material is concerned, I think, theoretically there is nothing wrong with it. After all, frequently, such materials appear as reaction to some actions, and we are aware of sentiments among the least informed and educated among Armenians, regarding "our lands." To put it in the language of Hovhanness Toumanyan, "Eas dzarn imn e, eas sarn imn e...” will always cause resurfacing of such materials, and the vicious circle will draw itself over and over.. The fundamental issue I think is that clearly there has existed Armenian Terrorism, it has been sponsored by foreign states and organizations, and has bee their annex, except, perhaps, in the late 19th Century. And it is a shameful, harmful and counterproductive page in Armenian History. More tragicaly, scores of Armenians are raised to take pride in it, which itself is a testimony of total schizophrenia. P.S. My bottom line is, "let's clean our own back yard, first." [ June 08, 2002, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik:Also, I don't have any illusions that it will change anything about the huge complicated political situation that this matter seems to be part of. Why not Elly? At least the city of Assen may divert the funds allocated for the upgrade of the city sewer system, as well as the trash collection, and reallocate some of it to raise Armenian Genocide awareness among the Dutch (so that they are not tempted to massacre Armenians), and would be great if it also could provide some financial stimulus to further the success of our Genocide industry... P.S. To paraphrase our beloved satiric Hagop Baronyan, " Kich me dram ughghargetsek." [ June 09, 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:there is some(quite a bit)deal of truth in the Georgian material above, and it is very widely recognized.That may be so, but one must realise that we are a nation that has been under intense pressure from all sides (neighbours) since birth, hence it is only reasonable to have such a 'schizophrenic' reaction from people among us. On the other hand, countries like the US (biggest terrorist of em all), has managed to terrorise the rest of the world into submission not for SURVIVAL but for MONEY. We have only tried to survive.....What an iron logic... Very impressive...

From what I understand, there is some(quite a bit)deal of truth in the Georgian material above, and it is very widely recognized. If it is unpleasant to hear or shameful, I think the shame has to go where it belongs to. I also rediscover time-and-time-again that schizophrenia is a paramount state of mind in some Armenian circles. [ June 08, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:MJ, Reading the works of someone who has upset you is NEVER wasted. I am an unabashed liberal but watch Fox News for many hours every day. I want to see how those I oppose are mind-manipulating the American public. Balakian's book is a revelation for every Armenian-American. Do not blame him for the milieu in which he was raised. Khodja, Contrary to the approach to life of some of those we know here… I don't make decisions on "what to read and what not to read" based on "if the author has upset me or not." I don't have to let things go through my personal "filters" to have attitude towards them. As to Balakian – I find reading him not being worth my time, though fighting him and his alike would be a well-spent time, perhaps.

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Balakian is a product of Bergen County, New Jersey USA. The Armenian communty there are the most pompous, arrogant and self-serving bunch I have ever encountered, and this includes many of my own flesh and blood. They are ignorant to boot, dealing only with generalities and knowing nothing of nuance. As for Balakian, just read his book and you will see the forces which formed him. After having a conversation with him I have no desire to waist my time reading him - he has nothing to tell that would be of interest to me. Besides, he was very transparent in demonstrating the "forces that have shaped him."

It is narrated that Mashtots has been sent to Alexandria to rediscover the "lost Armenian alphabet" at about 401 A.D., I believe. However, there are no narrations in the Armenian hectograph as under what circumstances has the pre-Mashtots alphabet been lost or destroyed. How could've an alphabet been lost? The official line in these matters has been that in the pre-Mashtots era Assyrian version of the Bible has been preached in Armenian Church. Lately, I have come across with some arguments by foreign sources, which claim that the "ancient" Armenian Alphabet has been destroyed by the Armenian Church in the period of Hellenization of Armenia, or the attempt to Hellenize Armenia by the Armenian Church elite. It is, furthermore, narrated, that Armenian Language Bible has circulated in the early Armenian Church, which has been a direct translation from Hebrew. As we know, the post-Mashtots Armenian Language Bible has been more influenced by Greek copies. It is further narrated that many Armenian clergy have continued using the pre-Mashtots Bible long after Mashtotses translation of it, and most intriguingly, Mashtots and Sahak Bartev have been zealous persecutors of those using the old version. It seems to me that there is much to be discovered, or at least to be disclosed along the lines of the transition from a pre-Mashtots Bible to a post-Mashtots one and the underlying motivations. P.S. My apologies for the misspelled word, above. Meant "historiography." [ May 26, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]