Gayane

(cont'd) I do think that early intervention programs are critical to a child's development. I'm not one for neurobiology, but I've always found the neurological developmental patterns of young children fascinating. Children build upon existing pathways and create an astounding number of new pathways in their early years. That's why it's so crucial to use the right tools to educate children in those early years since you're not only educating, but also building an entire foundation on which later development will be based. This is where child care comes in. As they correctly pointed out during the interview, QUALITY child care can make a great deal of difference in how firm of a foundation a child acquires. In this respect, I think child care supersedes home care by the parents since the parents aren't always well informed on the issue (the parents on this forum I find to be the exception). I don't think (in fact I'm certain of it) that child care alone can be blamed for the rise in behaviors or even "smarts" in any given child. There are just too many factors playing into the equation for anyone to be able to deduce anything like that. As I said, this study is flawed. I know there are others making a similar claim. From what I know of research, researchers will do anything to get published, including smooth over conflicting data, so I don't trust these studies too much (or any study for that matter). Here's how I see it. Advantages of out of home child care for the child: -improved social and self help skills -better chance of normal functioning among peers in the future -greater discipline and time management (most child care tends to be rather structured) -greater reliance on independent functioning -facilitated acquisition of most academic material Disadvantages: -time away from the parents (yes, Mikey, the parents, not just the mother ) -new, and therefore stressful environment -picking up bad habits (important, believe it or not) -(with greater independence) some resistance to parental authority -SOME loss of identity and development of groupthink mentality (perhaps important to culturally minded parents) I think placing their child in child care is a difficult concept for some armenian women (neither my sister nor I were ever put in child care, not even kindergarten!). Most Armenian women tend to rely on family networks for the childcare needs of their kids. Yet, as I mentioned above, I see this reliance on family becoming impossible within one or two generations in the diaspora. More and more armenian women are becoming professionals (or at least devoting their time to some sort of a career). The implications of this change seem to include the necessity (not just preference) for child care for Armenian families. I don't know all the answers here, but the topic is something I've put thought into and haven't come up with anything I'm comfortable with yet! Anyway, this is turning into a thesis. I'll yield the floor

Thank you, Azat First, I'd like to observe that the radio talk show host was not only severely biased, but rather cognitively slow at that, so the discussion was tilted in ways that it shouldn't have been, thoroughly misrepresenting the researchers and their findings. The LA Times article (also somewhat biased) was a bit more rational, and brought up some of the criticisms of the study that I was going to make in the first place. One thing about the study: it's deeply flawed. Having designed and implemented a research study I can spot this right away. The flaws inherent in the study render the findings almost useless (as the article hints at). However, the study does raise issues that need to be addressed, not only at large, but in the Armenian community as well. This issue needs to be looked at as more and more Armenian women opt to have careers and face the issue of childcare. I believe that beginning with my generation, armenian women will have to look to child care for their children's care and not rely on their mothers or their husband's mothers as much. Think about it. My mother works. (let's say) My mother-in-law works. I work. Who in the world is going to raise my child? Child care is more of an issue than we (myself included) would like to admit. This is admittedly a very touchy topic for me. I have no idea how I'm going to deal with this one when the time comes for me to deal with it. That's by way of preface. I'll continue this later.

Boghos, I think most of us would love to have more women on the forum, so feel free to extend an invitation on my behalf to the women you know. Now, with respect to the issue of single Armenian women, my experience has been that INDEPENDENT single armenian women are attacked from all ends: traditionally minded men AND traditionally minded women. Although now less so than before, but single girls still get a great deal of criticism for choosing fast paced or non traditional careers. We all know what happens to single girls who don't "behave" when it comes to dating ("becoming the talk of the town" doesn't quite cover it). A single armenian girl who's dating has two options. Option A: do whatever you like but keep quiet about it and deny everything at all cost and Option B: do whatever you like but be honest about it. Most choose to lie (I don't blame them). God help the rest of us. Moving out is a virtual impossibility, even with such liberal minded parents like mine (my mother very LITERALLY had a heart attack; it was definitely an experience and I still live at home!) Disclaimer: my views are based on my observations and experiences of girls living in the los angeles area, mostly immigrant families. An interesting observation (at least to me): the immediate respect a girl acquires upon getting engaged; this is respect a single girl could never dream of. Practically overnight, she becomes "legit": go wherever you like, do whatever you like, the parents will say very little to the contrary. She basically becomes the guy's "problem" (parents' view) and a "respectable" woman (society's view). I find this astonishing. Before I get harassed for having an opinion again let me say that these are only my views and I present them only as such, not as fact. Dispute them as you see fit. I'll be adding more later.

Alright, boys, you've had your fun I'd like to make it clear that advocating (or even discussing) sites with pictures of armenian women (or any women) will have no place on this forum. Do that on your own time, not on the forum. I'm deleting all the references to the sites. Gayane P.S. Please limit your discussion to the topic!

quote:Originally posted by MJ: I would like to urge everybody to get back to the original topic. And, maybe, it would be great, if each of you may delete his own postings which are not on the original topic of this thread. Gayane oops! Martin Thank you for stepping in during my absence, Martin I'm pretty lenient as a moderator (I think you'll find) and so far nothing THAT offensive has been said, but just know your limits (everyone). Etkan ban Gayancho

My father's admonition came to mind as I was reading this: separate your friends into categories: "seghani enkere der lav enker chi " said my father. For those not familiar, "seghani enker" is a friend you have good times with, someone who might want your friendship for your pleasant company, your money, etc. This does not guarantee that they'll be a true friend when you really need their friendship. Personally, I do believe in the tried and true cliche "a friend in need is a friend indeed". Which is why I don't have very many good friends, or very many friends period because if it's not a true friendship, I'd rather not have that friendship at all. Most of my "best" friends in the past have failed me in need, when I most needed them. I despise hypocrisy, or "dzevakanutyun" as the hayastantsis among us might say. I think people find my approach to friendships rather unusual (I had no problems dropping a 9 year friendship because my "friend" not only was not "there" when I needed her but went on to sabotage me in every way possible--lol, I think she was rather upset it didn't work). On another note, I don't have very many girlfriends, but only one! Like I said, I despise any sort of lack of sincerity in a friendship and I think women are the most hypocritical creatures on earth. I despise girls who are shallow, envious, gossipy and vengeful (my experience with this has been astounding). Once in a while you'll meet a woman who's genuine and honest, whatever other faults she might have. My acquaintances are many; my friends I can count on one hand and I wouldn't even get to use all five of my fingers My criteria for choosing friends are the following. First and foremost, they have to be genuine, kind hearted people. They must have uncompromising integrity, strength of beliefs (my friends sometimes hold opinions completely opposite to mine, but I respect their strength of belief), and they must be honest, affectionate, accepting, and selfless. Clearly, you don't run into people like that everyday, which is why I don't have very many friends Also, I should say that I don't expect anything of my friends I wouldn't give freely to them. In fact I expect nothing. Friendship isn't about "well, if you do this for me, I'll do that for you". It's about giving as much of yourself as you possibly can simply because you care about and love your friends. That's it for now

I was at the park with one of my kids the other day doing some gross motor activities when a young asian woman approached me and asked about M., the kid I was with. We got to talking, and it turned out that her son has been diagnosed with autism as well. She said that her husband was in denial about the whole thing and wouldn't hear talk of any kind of therapy or even special education placement. Worst of all, he wouldn't allow her to do anything about it!! (They're a Korean family). As she spoke about it more and more she got more and more upset and finally started crying. Never before have I been as affected by a client's story (and we're trained not to repsond emotionally). I told her to give me the evaluation papers for S., her son, so that I could design a behavioral program for her son that'd be loosely structured so that she could implement it at home without the husband knowing. She was very excited, especially when I reassured her that I would do it for free, as a favor. She said God will reward me for this; I said I don't do this so that God can reward me for this, I do this because I enjoy it. She said she'd meet me at the park again next Monday, same time. I went, prepared, with all kinds of background material for her to read (through our conversation I realized she didn't know much about her son's condition -- she said she had heard autism's caused by watching too much TV; I nearly fainted). I saw her at a distance walking towards the park. She saw me as well. Then, just as I was getting close enough to greet her, I saw a man approach her, literally grab her by the hand and pull her away. She was gone before I could do or say anything. I assumed the man was her husband who somehow got wind of what was going on. Easily, the most frustrating work related experience I've ever had. Never before have I been so affected by a show of culturally produced idiotic behavior (the Korean dad's denial and refusal to accept his son) and we all know how much I loathe culturally imposed constraints. God, it annoyed me to no end, I can't even tell you. I can only hope I'll catch at her at the park some other time.

I agree with Martin in that the issue of a father's involvement in his family's life is also a women's issue. So much so that it warrants discussion under a separate heading. My sister and I are fortunate enough to have a wonderful, very involved father. Unfortunately, from what I've observed, this isn't as common as we'd all like. Here I'll ask you to define what a father's role should be. Input from the great fathers we have on this forum is especially welcome What are the areas that a father should be involved in? What are the spheres best left to the mother (if there are any)? Should there be such stringest separation of the respective parents' roles? Finally, what are some of the problems resultant from a father's underperformed role as a father (read lack of involvement--yes, I'm biased )? Perhaps most important: how do we address the issue or remedy the situation?

Sitting around the dinner table over Easter were the many women in my family: my grandmother the homemaker, my mother the doctor, myself, and my kid sister the overachiever, among others. As I considered each of our lives, I noticed a pattern all too common in many families, both Armenian and non Armenian -- the slow upward mobility of the women. From my third-grade educated grandmother to my overachiever kid sister who is poised to become an exceptional careerwoman -- that's what I call progress! Yet progress at what cost? (as some would ask) Do women jeopardize the overall well being of their family and their children when they choose to have a career? What effect does a woman's committment to her career have on the children? Is there an effect? Is it negative? How severe? Is there a stigma attached to the mother who's careerminded and ambitious? How much of a stigma? What about society's perceptions of working mothers? How about the men? Do the husbands of working moms encounter challenges their fathers could not have fathomed? How does the husband's view of his career oriented wife impact their marital relationship? What is the husband's take on his wife's committment to her job? How does this play out in Armenian families? How prepared are Armenian women to juggle both work and home? How prepared are Armenian men to have successful wives? How accepting is our culture of overly ambitious, overly successful women? (I generalize when asking these questions, as avoiding generalization becomes difficult while dealing with such topics) Views? (pick any or all of the issues I've raised)

Dragon, I think you misunderstood. Sexual harassment is not about an "offer" that someone can "accept" or "reject" as such. The person in the position of the harasser is either a) threatening the victim with the loss of their job or creating a severely unpleasant environment for the victim. I think you're imagining a woman licking her lips and playing with her hair to entice a man she works with into going back to her place for a drink and possibly sex. Sexual harassment isn't about that! Rather, I would agree with Boghos, it is about a display of power (stemming from the position of the harasser) over the victim, finding expression through the demand for sexual favors. Boghos raised the issue of the litigious nature of our society. Yet is the heightened sensitivity currently surrounding sexual harassment in the workplace the result of our litious nature, or is it the result of many years of work on the part of womens' rights activists to increase awareness about the problem? I would say it is the latter. As an example, pretty stewardesses are probably very much still in demand. The only difference is, pretty stewardesses(or hot male attendants!)have now acquired the legal means of fighting the harassment they might encounter at work on a daily basis. I find myself, regretfully, drawing a correlation between sexual harassment and the good looks of the victim (above), as did a couple of others. In all truth, however, sexual harassment is NOT about the good looks of the victim. Anyone (regardless of their level of perceived attractiveness) can be a victim of sexual harassment, harking back to Boghos's point about the harassment being an exercise of power and control. This point about the looks of the victim ties in to one of my original questions, namely, societal perceptions of women as victims and women as harassers. I think a common stereotype is that of female victims of sexual harassment are pretty little sex kittens. What would you say is the common stereotype of the woman agressor?

Being as even-tempered as I am, I'll pretend I didn't hear or see that Please stick to the topic.

sounds like they finally got some creative people into the executive committee of our famed asa...not a bad idea at all...

If that is, indeed, the case, I stand corrected I'm familiar with legal precedents for only the two I've mentioned, but I'd love to explore the third. I think you'd need to give us more info on that one.

Oh come onnn, people, let's be a little more creative. Not all things armenian can have a picture of ararat and the tricolor flag!!! I'm almost liking Mikey's idea...almost How about trying to find art depicting some sort of a scene out of armenian life; I don't know, maybe armenian dancers (a man and a woman), or a scene out of family life, like a husband and wife sitting at the table, or guy and girl standing under a tree, or somebody playing some sort of musical instrument. OR, if you don't like anything like that, how about we pick a period in armenian history and have the king's code of arms, or invent one of our own, or .....ANYTHING except flag or mt. ararat, please....

I met a couple of turkish guys (my only experience with actual turks) a couple of years ago at a national poli sci conference. They were very intelligent, had a great sense of humor, great conversationalists, a pleasure to spend time with, really. When we found out each other's nationalities we just had to smile and raise a glass to our shared history. It was very cute If they weren't all the way from Michigan I'd be friends with them still (I don't know that I'd marry one though, the kids might have major identity problems)

In American legal doctrine, there are two types of sexual harassment: 1. "quid pro quo"--actual loss because of the harassment (i.e. forcing an employee to perform certain acts with the threat of losing their job or offering a promotion for those acts) 2. "hostile environment"--unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of sexual nature...can be psychologically injurious There are other criteria, but those are the basics. I'm interested in your opinions on how this plays out in actual practice. I'm particularly interested in women as harassers, not as victims of harassment. How does our society perceive women who are sexual harassers? How about the victims? Are women perpetrators punished? How severely? How just or fair is their punishment with respect to male harassers? Some examples of sexual harassment: being touched by a boss in an inappropriate manner, being made uncomfortable by a boss or coworker telling numerous jokes of sexual nature, receiving unwanted sexual emails from a coworker or a boss, feeling compelled to give in to sexual innuendo to keep your job or get a promotion, having to quit because of the harassment, being told to wear more sexy, revealing clothing to work, etc.. I wanted to focus on men as victims here because I think it's important to note that women commit sexual harassment as well. Why is this a women's issue? Because it affects societal perceptions of women (in what way has no bearing on the issue). Finally, I'm interested in your opinions on whether or not (or even if) sexual harassment is common (or takes place) in the Armenian community. (consider both men and women as both harassers and victims).

Artur: Who opened this forum??? :: )) Gayane: I did Artur: And what are you going to discuss here??? Who is better Ricky Martin or Hayko or something... : ) Gayane: Not exactly Artur: Xndaluc mera... ) Gayane: Yesel Artur: Anyways, hope to see some kind of proper topic rather than something feminist. Gayane: You're welcome to open up threads of your own topics and ensure their being "proper" Artur: By the way, i really believe there are no feminists in this forum and even an armenian, not our girls type Gayane: Depends on your definition of feminism, doesn't it? But yes, I'll have to agree, there are no feminists on this board, not yet anyhow... Artur: Good luck! Gayane: Thank you! Gayane: P.S. Is it me or was Doc really not joking?...lol [ April 10, 2001: Message edited by: Gayane ]

Martin, once again, thank you!! Thank you for pointing out the distinction between women's issues and feminism In my view, the feminist stance is only ONE way of approaching women's issues. Feminism certainly does not equal women's issues. The two are unequivocally different. Let's keep this distinction in mind at all times when expressing opinions under this topic. For me, the term "women's issues" encompasses anything that is, for one reason or another,specific to a woman's existence as just that--a woman. This definition is applicable (but not limited to) our understanding of both Woman as a female individual (i.e. reproductive rights, etc) as well as Woman as a societal unit (i.e. women in the workplace, gender roles in the family, etc.) This is an overly simplified definition of "women's issues" (and we'll certainly be adding to it as we go along), but I wanted to clarify what was meant by the term and give everyone a feel for the kinds of issues that will most likely be included in our discussions. Most importantly, I wanted to clarify that women's issues is NOT the same as feminism! Now, with respect to Armenian women and women's issues in particular, I do think that Armenian women necessarily experience these issues differently from "american" or non-armenian women; not because they're Armenian per se, but simply because they come from a culture that treats these issues differently than the "western standard". I don't think these issues are different for Armenian women in their content. I do think they're different for Armenian women in their treatment and application. Personally, I'm very interested in the application of the discussion of women's issues to Armenian women in particular. That's by way of background Gayancho, the UN-feminist

All hell's breaking loose again. You guys will have to excuse me from the forum for a while: don't have the energy for it right now...sowwy P.S. I'll be back (terminator style)...lol

Aneta, I would appreciate it, if you could, from now on, refrain from telling me what to do or how to act. Notice I do not do the same to you (although the opportunities have been there) If you have any more unsolicited "advice" to give, be kind enough to email me, call me, or send a message.

I've always been a big fan of latin music, yes, even before it became the hottest thing around...boleros are incredible (esp. stuff from the '50s), love salsa, and a guy who can dance to a slow rumba is my kind of guy. I have a whole collection of spanish flamenco and one of argentine tango Allanis Morisette and Shakira are both incredible, I really connect with their music (still waiting for the armenian Allanis or Shakira) Dave Matthews Band I love Bon Jovi (go figure...lol) Leila is a definite favorite (has been for years) Sarah Brightman (only for certain moods though) I have a thing for jazz and blues: Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, B.B. King...love them all...(the first two are my faves though)

(note to self: I positively have to stop working weekends...I miss everything interesting because of it, like the talk on Komitas) An interesting case study. I myself have always thought Komitas would have had some definite issues given his life events.. Mikey, got your message, thank you

Vay, I hadn't seen this before, Martin; my apologies I'll see what I can do

Aneta, it IS a matter of IQ and competence. I don't have a problem with people liking happy movies; they can LIKE whatever they please. BUT, the guy at the movies should be able to COMPREHEND that this type of a movie requires a sad ending (you can't always have a happy ending, it's matter of aesthetics, really). This is where the IQ and competence come in. The guy had such a narrow world view that he thought every movie should have a happy ending. That's what annoyed me. (lol, by the way, he did just sit there and keep quiet...I think he decided against messing with me after he took a look at my companion...lol) By the way, what's with "don't judge people"? I can judge anyone I like for whatever reason I like. I, for one, don't subscribe to that politically correct nonsense of being "nice" to everybody, even the last idiot on the street. I think it's human nature to be judgemental and it's rather hypocritical not showing it. Therefore, I'll "judge people" all I want. Kapish?...lol

lol...lol...i love it, my kind of humor lol