THOTH

Anoushik...regardless..please consider these words of wisdom... There is a small area of land in Asia Minor that is called Armenia, but it is not so. It is not Armenia. It is a place… There are only Armenians, and they inhabit the earth, not Armenia, since there is no Armenia… There is no America and there is no England, and no France, and no Italy. There is only the earth… William Saroyan - Inhale and Exhale 1936 My birthplace was California, but I couldn't forget Armenia, so what is one's country? Is it land of the earth, in a specific place? Rivers there? Lakes? The sky there? The way the moon comes up there? And the sun? Is one's country the trees, the vineyards, the grass, the birds, the rocks, the hills and summer and winter? Is it the animal rhythm of the living there? The huts and houses, the streets of cities, the tables and chairs, and the drinking of tea and talking? Is it the peach ripening in summer heat on the bough? Is it the dead in the earth there? Wiliam Saroyan - Antranik and the Spirit of Armenia, 1936 I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them to the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a NEW ARMENIA.

Armat I agree (even if I might cringe a bit....) - just keeping the issue in the news, and keeping pressure on Turkey - both ensure that the genocide (and its denial!) is not forgotten and swept under the rug - and IMO there is value in this. I do however share MJ's aborence with the self perpetuating "Genocide Industry" mentality and the simple sloganeering and such and wish for more reasoned and balanced approaches (and I don't mean adopting any Turkish propaganda positions when i say balanced...but perhaps letting go of a few of our own...and addressing the issues in a more critical/academic manner)...

Anoushik....not that i don't have great sympathy for your sentiment -i do - but I do not see it manifesting in any practical way outside a war of (re)conquest that at this point in time Armenia/Armenians cannot hope to win. Along the lines of a related Genocide recognition discussion going on on the forum now - do we (as Armenians) also work towards other disenfranchised peoples getting "their" lands back to - beginning with the various native American Indian tribes,...(and the list goes on)? And what are lands really? yes there are many places in Anatolia (and Eastern Anatolia proper) that have/has great significance to us...and its painful to see these lands occupied by others - in part due to Armenians being swept away..but in practical terms - with Armenians fleeing the land we now have, and other Armenians (such as most of us) who live very nice lives in much more hospitable places - etc - who is really goign to inhabit these places? ..and what do we do with the (innocent) people who are there now? I don't think that there are really good answers to these questions. Yes - we can say, think, even believe certain things...but that does not make it right...when i think of genocide recognition (by Turkey & the Turks) and (eventual) reconcilliation...I think of an environment where Armenians are not pariah to Turks, where the past can be properly recognized and understood (by all sides) and where it might be possible for Armenians to perhaps settle again in certain areas, preserve certain structures, and for the Turks (and the world) to recognize the legacy and work to perserve it...and perhaps to allow access or even transfer ownership of certain areas - such as Ani and perhaps all/part of Ararat to Armenian control or at least unrestricted access (a real dream even this...but at least one that might be possible with some concievable future enlightenment). But I don't hold my breath over any of this - and less so on actually gaining any historical Armenian lands back - its just not at all likely or in any way practical..short of additional bloodshed...and even there without much real hope (even if it were worth us performing the sort of atrocities that likely would be required to clear the lands of those who now inhabit it)...think about it...

Oh and how could I forget.... (well pic...)..yeah...

OK....guilty....

perhaps in a sense..but believe me - if your worrying such now - when you get tomy age you will really be nuts....

wow - serious stuff...Ani your too young to think like this already...lol-really - (most of) your (adult) life and certanly most all of your choices that will really matter are still ahead of you...OK perhaps you will ever be a soloist with the philharmonic etc - and i understand and have often had regrets about not learning to play an insturment (or learn to speak Armenian...etc)...but one cannot rally go about life in such a quandry. Sure - I think most of us (particulalry us thinkers) will to some degree or another be plauged by such thoughts - and its tough to avoid..but if you go about your life - and make choices not based on the most conservative (safe) outlook - but realizing that this is your one shot - well I think that you will do fine...and any regrets should pael in comparisions to the unique and wondrful things you've managed to experience, accomplish, people you will meet, help, joys, and even the setbacks and tragedies (perhaps...as we cannot avoid these forever)....anyway on the whole I'm sure that you will have no (serious) regrets - and all is just part of life besides...so go forth youn woman! Kick butt! And (and I've often said this) - if I've had any real regrets they ussually are that I wish I had been even wilder then i even was - took more chances - was crazier and more care free....other then that I really can't (much) complain (even if I might on occasion....)

ha ha ha

Your both nuts - what can I say...I have better things to do then to find a bible (havn't got one handy) and look up passages. All I know is that for every verse and/or prophecy and such there are others which contradict...etc...btw can you honestly tell me you are able to thread the needle through the camels eye....

Where exactly in this area are you from real Pontian? I recently have been through your region - and it is most beutiful. Visited Trabzon for the first time (and the Sumela Monestary) - we did a nice walking tour and visited some of the old churches of the town (though the St Sophia was closed that day - shame)...but I am especially impressed with Amasya..what an awesome town and what an awesome situation - breathtaking really! But the entire Black Sea region was beautiful and seemed a very nice place....

Well Gevo - he happens to believe that the word/warnings/what have you (from the book and prophecy etc) are a call for believers to act on their own behalf - to not be passive - to ensure survival...thus when armeggedon or such occurs he will be preparred...who is to say..I mean I think he is nuts - but I fail to see how you are any more of an authority then he (in fact having read your various posts and having listening to [and debated] him I think I will go by his interpretation - at least as having more basis in something [factual?] and based on understanding what is written etc etc)....and he is not alone in this belief - in fact there is quite a network of armed and prepared (survivalist) Christians all around the nation (of which he is very well connected) who think similarly. And you might be amazed concerning which prominant people in this country (including members of the current administration) who are into this and who consult with my friend who is a bit of a recognized expert in the field (shelters, emergency preparadness, survivalism etc etc)...and in fact he is president of a rather high profile organization which at one time (before he died) included Edward Teller on its board of directors - among other known folks. A bit out there - perhaps....but fairly serious none-the less. So yeah I find it rather amusing that you might supose that you know better.... And an interesting aside - my friend has discussed/proposed us two writing an article together on this topic (to be published in a national journal along these lines that he edits)- him from the Christian perspective and me bringing in my Anthropological/mythological background/knowledge of end time prophecy from other cultures to discuss and compare such and to discuss survival possibilities/strategies etc etc....could be comewhat interesting....by the way...you have until 2012! (LOL)

http://www.pottymouth.org/humor/shinola.html

Just wanted to put this somewhere - couldn't figure where - but thought here - since its another example of rejecting science and substituting dogma. Note in the Faq # 13 - on gravity 13. What about gravity? Gravity is a lie invented by the purveyors of the inherently false spherical Earth theory. The theory of gravity has never been proven. There is no gravity, only inertia. The Earth moves through space like a giant elevator. We do not fall off because we are kept down by inertia. The Earth has inertia. There is a school of thought which states, however, that the Earth does not move through space, but rather that it rests on the back of a giant turtle, and that what we call gravity is, in fact, the turtle's animal magnetism. http://www.flat-earth.org/

I think the new stang looks awesome....and the cobra (and I've heard eventual Shelby) versions should be something...still nothign quite beats the original (which I own BTW! - 64 1/2 289 4 barrel convertable in mint condition - 51,000 miles and totally unrestored (but practically looking like it just rolled off the showroom floor!) - my baby certainly. And in fact it is one of the very first 289 convertables to come off the assembly line - all documented and such...I even have the equipment sheet that was on the window when new and the cancelled check used to pay for the car! And I'd ove to have one of the new models (Cobra or Shelby version of course to pair with it! (doubt that it will happen though - not my wife's cup of tea - and besides we're planning to pick up a car in Europe this summer... Thanks for the pic though accel - I think the new stangs look hot from any angle (having seen one in person already!)

LOL on both counts....(and pathetic) I must say though I do apreciate cars that have been worked up - even if sometime to the extreme - just the fun of it - and makes things interesting...(and nice to be able to back the look up with some performance...and then of course to enjoy and know how to use the performance that your vehical has...) but this fakey stuff...and the other - lol - pathetic...

I really have no idea why you might say this - except for the normally demonstrated ignorance on your part. And you certainly don't seem to at all understand either what I posted or why I might have posted such (though why should I be surprised?). But let me just add - on behalf of my good Christian friend (one of many BTW) - there can be no doubting his commitment or understanding of the gospels or such. This is not at all an issue. Several years ago (based on a vision/calling etc) he gave up an extremely lucrative job to help his church establish itself in another State - going off - with his then 6 children (he now has 8) to an uncertain future. He also leads a home (bible) study that has gotten so popular that it has branched off several times due to the hundreds of people who were showing up to his home. I have rarely ever met anyone more familiar with the scriptures and their meaning (and this includes various preachers and such). Nor have I rarely ever encountered folks so loving and full of charity (and as i have said - epitomizing Christain virtue) as he and his wife. For instance - for many years they ran a sort of halfway house (all at their own expense) for abused women/women who also chose to have their child versus abort etc..and helped these troubled women stand on their own two feet and helped them through their tough times...and this help extended to after they were established...amzing the level of effort (and love) and such that they have gone through helping these people - etc etc... anyway - I fail to see at all where your negative comments came from concerning my friend - who I assure you epitiomizes the very best in Christian values and teachings (but yeah Ok is perhaps a bit of a fanatic in my eyes...but OK - they serve their purpose I guess..and there is no question that he is doing good...) ...and there can be no denying his (great) knowledge of and his living out of is faith...and in that he has always had my highest respect and admiration....(but boy do we disagree on such a great many things...lol....but neither is threatened with the other or the other's views - and our disagrements have never come in the way of our friendship.

I have a very good friend who is evangelical (charismatic) Christian (and - as an aside - he professes that he has space for me and my family in his super deluxe bomb shelter for when the end times come!..lol ...and he and his wife - well they are alwasy praying for me...lol - for which I always thank them...anyway) - but I remember shortly after we had met - and I had confronted him and stated - "your a Christian - aren't you?" (and by that I meant a true/real Christian [thogh of course this is the crux of the matter isn;t it..just what is such...and who can agree?] - well what I meant is that I could see the Christian virtue and belief in his heart and in his actions (and he had never to that point stateted to me or around me that he was a believer)....he said yes - and so this of course started off a long (and in many ways continueing) conversation....where I recall one of the first things i said to him was that I really would have no problems with Christians...if it weren't for them being so caught up/serious in all this bible stuff...well he understood...but he was really caught up in such...yet, for the cvast part - I have no problems with him..and we became fast friends - respectful of one another (he always says that I remind hi of his older brother...an ex-hippie...and still non-believeing atheist).....anyway....yeah...oh and BTW - I have read the Bible (old & new) extensively...mutiple times (again gevo - certainly before you were ever born...I have been a Young Life Crusadewr [OK briefly...but still maintina some friends dfrom then...]...and I've also read many other religious texts...openly - with open mind..and they all fill me with wonder (adn sometimes dread)...no one can know all things - and yes it is important that we know of and apreciate as much as possible before we decide to reject or embrace...and we alwasy need to keep an open mind...and don't be so certain that because you believe certain things that you have necessarily got it right....and while I may sound as though I believe such (about my own beliefs...) - and yeah OK - I feel pretty confident in them...LOL....I still feel that I am essentially open (and more so then you might believe)...and much of the positions I take here are in response to the certitudes and inflexibility I see from some others....OK

! So very sorry...I can fully imagine that you must be devestated....please except my condolences...so very sad - such a tragedy...I feel very badly for your entire family...

Your understanding (?) of how mutations occur - and how they are channeled etc is out of date at best. As for the rest - well I provided links which show evolution to be good science - and I have amply stated my views (isn't this a religion thread? I though so)..anyway - you have offered no alternative. Your stated position - not demonstratable is innacurate - if you have read some of my links. You really have no argument at all yet you persist (talk about a religious fanatic - you very much seem as one). Bottom line - evolution is good science - ther are thousands and thousands and thousands of examples and reasons why this "belief" is held...(LOL)...and your attempts to argue against such are meaningless. The precipts of evolutionary theory are proven to the extent of sciences abiltity at this time and it is clear that we have the evidence that evolution - via mutation, natural selection (of some sort) etc did occur - is occuring. There is a plethroa of proof. Sorry if your belief system just doesnt include understanding it - its your deficiency...

All untrue - evolution theory and all that surrounds it are good science and I've posted plenty of links that clearly explain this postion. If you reject evolution you are in all senses rejecting science as a whole. And you are wrong about muttions being primarily negative. The current thinig among geneticists is that there are many check mechanisms that limit negative mutation yet propel positive - actually hurrying evolution essentially. Please pick up the latest Scientific American if you are interested - really great stuff...

Well Anoan - sorry you fail again. While nothign can be 100% certain - who ever said such...your knock on scinece and scientific method and your failure to undertand how evolutionary science (incl genetics) tell us a great deal. And they basic conspt of evolution is sound. Specific theories - along the lines of survival of the fittest - and genetic mutation (micro/macro et al) are established - sure more is being understood all of the time - its amazing really- and we should celebrate today - 1 year of the human genome being mapped out - and so many discoveries are occuring...and these keep suporting the idea of (positive) genetic mutation and show a clear history of deveolpment of even DNA - where different DNA lead to different RNA sequences/combinatiions and different protiens/amino acids and how even this itself has evolved with more advanced life forms and over time...alll fasciating stuff..this is science- real science - exiting science - the best we are able - and sure - while limited - while unable to give us all of the answers - maybe not even close - well its the best we have for understanding the world around us...and it should be embraced - not rejected - and you would embrace such if you were truly intellignet enough to understand what it can show us - and sure accept its limitations as well...unless you'd rather just pray for inspiration/revelation....or consult some old books - live in a world where knowledge stopped hundreds of years ago - where scientific discovery is shunned because it goes against the edits of church belief etc etc..yeah there is belief for ya..and its categorically a ver different thing...

I want to make a point - it is the believers (mostly) who keep starting thse threads where they are classifying non-believers as haters or some such - otherwise disparaging our non-belief. So if believers are so secure - why the need to attempt to pigeonhole non-believers and such? etc etc And I do rejoice in my existance - that of my family, friends, humanity and all of our world and beyond..all truly wonderful and amazing...

Sorry to disapoint you Armat - no guilty conscious and I believe that my conception of and internalization fo right and wrong - etc is as developed as anyones. Sorry - no need for a god belief for this one...I meanyou have to understand that humans for milenia - and a very many on the planet today do not share a belief in a Christian God - and they are able to make their way with these things...Boghos spoke of arrogance - I think claims like this are arrogance...or perhaps are just ignorance. And I really don't have doubt vconcening Go etc (as has been defined by humans)...and as undefined...well I don't see any point in worying about it - or in any way of needing to believe - and I still ask - in what?

well Boghos - obviously I was joking to make a point. And I think my position should be clear otherwise. Are we arrogant to disbelieve in Odin? etc I don't se the difference?

Sorry Domino - I stil don't buy it..and you have called me overly open to accepting anythign in the past - LOL. It not sufiicient to beleive that everythign is possible (because I beleive in at least that possibility - even if I reject it on a practicle level) - it still essentially says nothign about the state of reality - just your openess to possibilities - it doesnt explain anything or answer any questions. At some poijt you must begin to make assumptions - and for these assumptions to lead to somethign valid they must be supportable. And I contend that this can tell us much - but only so far. The rest is beyond us - and liekley always will be as long as we are beings constrained by time and flesh. Beyond that I cannot not specualte - only that clearly all the explanation sgiven - ever given - are inadequate - so my "believf" perhaps has as much agnostiscim as atheism (as well as some Doaism - but no problem there)...but I stick to my atheism in the face of those who claim to know. For I know that my claim that they are wrong - and that the probabilities (there is that word) that they are even remotely close to the truth are so minimal to not even bother to account....ultimatly that is where I stand.